Wiggins, Clinic respect?

[Angliru]

Just been browsing on eBay...some real good deals on Rapha kit if you don't mind the Wiggins logo. It's like a few years back when you could pick up the Nike Livestrong kit for peanuts :razz:

At least with the Livestrong gear his actual name wasn't emblazoned on it in big letters (although it was still identifiable with the yellow accents), with the Wiggins kit his name is quite prominent. I do like the design though.

 

[Angliru]

Just been browsing on eBay...some real good deals on Rapha kit if you don't mind the Wiggins logo. It's like a few years back when you could pick up the Nike Livestrong kit for peanuts :razz:

All this drama and before Froome could even get his signature kit out to the masses and make a killing.

 

[brownbobby]

Just been browsing on eBay...some real good deals on Rapha kit if you don't mind the Wiggins logo. It's like a few years back when you could pick up the Nike Livestrong kit for peanuts :razz:

At least with the Livestrong gear his actual name wasn't emblazoned on it in big letters (although it was still identifiable with the yellow accents), with the Wiggins kit his name is quite prominent. I do like the design though.

Agreed, for all his faults, you gotta admit the dude was/is pretty stylish...

 

[Beech Mtn]

Re: Re:

That's interesting. Are you sure it was the 26th in 2011 and not 2012? If it was 2011 I'm surprised the Clinic hasn't unearthed that before (though maybe it has, I haven't been paying attention that closely for a while).

 

[brownbobby]

Re:

I use Triamcinolone - I have Psoriatic Arthritis & Ankylosing Spondylitis and I use the drug when I feel a flare up coming on. I also have asthma - what I’ve personally found with Triamcinolone is that it’s effects on breathing are pretty negligible - when I’ve used it I still have to use my salbutamol inhaler as often as normal when cycling. Oral prednisolone is much more effective and if I’m prescribed that to manage my asthma during say a respiratory infection or a cold the effect is very noticeable.

The thing with Triamcinolone is that it’s so powerful. The day after I’ve had a shot of 120 to 160mg I clock up PBs on almost every segment I ride on Strava (I train daily) and it doesn’t even feel like I’m putting any effort in. Pain threshold goes up too - I can hold a higher wattage for much longer. The other effect is weight - it can strip you of anywhere between 1 to 4kg in a week. However, I’ve found that the weight loss is temporary, it creeps back up unless you’re severely calorie deficient. It’s insane the temporary effect it has on performance though - and I don’t even use it for that effect, it’s just something I notice.

There’s no way Wiggins and Freeman didn’t choose this drug because of the performance enhancement. He probably did have allergies causing respiratory distress.....but there are a myriad of effective but less powerful drugs that could have been used instead. A GP for example wouldn’t prescribe I.M Kenalog for this. It’s a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think, and many others do, that Triamcinolone was chosen because it is a performance enhancer.

Man...you better not have stolen any of my Strava KOM's while you were juiced up

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

No idea.

It's especially weird given he apparently had the TUE injection in the same day as the road race. Wonder whether that was before or after?

Ok let's be clear on the dates because even the commitee report and Wiggins himself seem to have bit wrong information.

First of all, the TUE forms leaked by Fancy Bears unfortunately don't tell us when the TUE was applied by Sky, but here are the effective dates and expiration dates with some remarks:

- June 2011 - the TUE effective and expiration date is 29th June 2011- so 3 days after the national RR. Wiggins and commitee report seems to talk about 26th, so bit mis-alignment there. The comments for application talks about RAST test performed for allergy of gras pollen on June 2011, thus one would assume the application have been sent during June 2011, after RAST test was performed. Funnily enough, the authorization signature of Zorzoli is dated 30th June thus 1 day after the TUE was effective/expired. The TUE was granted 3 days before TDF.

- June 2012 - the TUE effective and expiration date was 26th June 2012. It is requested to be used for Dauphine 2012, which ended on 10th June - 16 days before the TUE became effective. The comments of TUE refers to TUE application last year on 30/5/11. Given my note above for the RAST test referred in the 2011 TUE, this indicates to me that there were actually 2 separate TUE applications on 2011, one on 30th May which I guess wasn't approved or we may not otherwise be aware of it, and another which effectively became active on 29th June 2011. So they wanted to have TUE already for Dauphine 2011.

- April 2013 - The effective date of the TUE is 22nd April and the expiration date is 30th April (!!!). So this particular TUE was effective 9 days although the discussion here in clinic has been that TUEs are only valid for a day. The comments in the TUE are almost exactly the same as in 2012 application except some updates RAST information. The expiration date was 4 days before Giro start.

None of the TUEs talk about asthma, those are all for pollen allergy. Especially for Giro 2013 this raises interesting question already elaborated by bobbybrown - is there really a need for steroid treatment for pollen allergy when you go and race in Italy during May? Are there really that much pollen in the air? Well we know it didn't really help Wiggo in that particular race... maybe he was still simply too fat.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.velonews.com/2018/03/new...ystem-not-commonplace-among-mpcc-teams_458833

Vaughters, whose Slipstream Sports squad now rides as EF Education First-Drapac, acknowledged that Wiggins had used TUEs for salbutamol and an inhaled corticosteroid in 2009, but he insisted that they did not compare with the allegations of TUE abuse in 2012.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Just love this afterthought in that article

Pat McQuaid, UCI President at the time of Wiggins’s Tour win, has also described Team Sky’s conduct as “misleading.”

“Team Sky’s success came after many doping scandals, including Lance Armstrong,” McQuaid said. “Sky always said that they were whiter than white, that it was all within the rules and down to marginal gains, to diet, pillows and mattresses. Now we know that wasn’t the whole story.”

 

[Rollthedice]

Sutton speaks shortly for Sky Sports News. From what I remember:

Brad and the doc had a chance to come out, they didn't. It didn't had to drag me or Sir Dave in this. The doc needs to tell the truth. I know a lot about Brad. He is a sufferer, not a cheat, he needed medication. Why all these inconsistencies? The doctor and Brad has to come out. He was treated on the bus, the doctor told me. They have to come forward to clear it. The doctor was not bullied to medicate cyclists, that's nonsense.

 

[Blanco]

Wiggins stating on BBC that he obtain a TUE for triamcinolone to prevent a possible asthma attack! He's on the thin ice there, there's no TUE for preventing, only for treating acute and chronic medical condition.

 

[Parker]

Re:

Wiggins stating on BBC that he obtain a TUE for triamcinolone to prevent a possible asthma attack! He's on the thin ice there, there's no TUE for preventing, only for treating acute and chronic medical condition.

He had an acute medical condition - asthma (and allergies - what the medicine was actually for). He took the medicine to control those conditions.

The Novo Nordisk team have diabetes. They take insulin with a TUE. They don't wait until the slip into a before applying for a TUE.

 

[vedrafjord]

That's an extremely disingenuous comparison - the universally accepted treatment for diabetes is insulin, and has been since the 20's. The universally accepted treatment for chronic asthma is inhaled doses of a mild corticosteroid (generally beclomethasone) with inhaled beta-2 agonists (generally salbutamol) for acute attacks. The universally accepted treatment for chronic respiratory allergies is either antihistamines or the same mild corticosteroids (eg beclomethasone as a nasal spray) or both. They're so universal that WADA have stopped requiring TUEs for these substances.

In contrast, triamcinolone is a much stronger drug, and injected tramcinolone means a systemic dose and greatly increased negative side-effects. Corticosteroids are really powerful drugs - they can change the expression levels of around 10% of your genes - and ones taken orally/via injection have an especially heavy list of side-effects, such as bruising and thinning of the skin, immune system suppression, water retention leading to weight gain and bloated facial appearance, and serious mood disturbances such as anxiety and mania.

There's not a doctor in the world (apart from the ones with endurance sports teams signing their pay cheques) who would prescribe injected tramcinolone for allergies or asthma except in the most extreme cases. Extreme cases means "I've been hospitalised, the peak flow meter says my lungs are functioning below 50% capacity, and I can't walk up a single flight of stairs" (which I have personally been through several times and still wasn't treated with anything as strong as triamcinolone, just nebulised salbutamol and a short course of prednisolone tablets), not "I've just won Paris-Nice, Romandie, and the Dauphiné and I want to be in super shape for this upcoming GT".

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

Wiggins stating on BBC that he obtain a TUE for triamcinolone to prevent a possible asthma attack! He's on the thin ice there, there's no TUE for preventing, only for treating acute and chronic medical condition.

He had an acute medical condition - asthma (and allergies - what the medicine was actually for). He took the medicine to control those conditions.

The Novo Nordisk team have diabetes. They take insulin with a TUE. They don't wait until the slip into a before applying for a TUE.

Yeah, but the thing is, systemic corticosteroid use is a last resort to treat asthma/allergies nowadays, not the common drug you try to make it sound like. Side effects of long term use are potentially nasty. Coincidentally they have the most potential PE effects of any asthma medication, so it's not hard to put 1 and 1 together...

That's an extremely disingenuous comparison - the universally accepted treatment for diabetes is insulin, and has been since the 20's. The universally accepted treatment for chronic asthma is inhaled doses of a mild corticosteroid (generally beclomethasone) with inhaled beta-2 agonists (generally salbutamol) for acute attacks. The universally accepted treatment for chronic respiratory allergies is either antihistamines or the same mild corticosteroids (eg beclomethasone as a nasal spray) or both. They're so universal that WADA have stopped requiring TUEs for these substances.

In contrast, triamcinolone is a much stronger drug, and injected tramcinolone means a systemic dose and greatly increased negative side-effects. Corticosteroids are really powerful drugs - they can change the expression levels of around 10% of your genes - and ones taken orally/via injection have an especially heavy list of side-effects, such as bruising and thinning of the skin, immune system suppression, water retention leading to weight gain and bloated facial appearance, and serious mood disturbances such as anxiety and mania.

There's not a doctor in the world (apart from the ones with endurance sports teams signing their pay cheques) who would prescribe injected tramcinolone for allergies or asthma except in the most extreme cases. Extreme cases means "I've been hospitalised, the peak flow meter says my lungs are functioning below 50% capacity, and I can't walk up a single flight of stairs" (which I have personally been through several times and still wasn't treated with anything as strong as triamcinolone, just nebulised salbutamol and a short course of prednisolone tablets), not "I've just won Paris-Nice, Romandie, and the Dauphiné and I want to be in super shape for this upcoming GT".

Thx, you put it in a much more eloquent way that i was able to, you can add osteoporosis, high blood pressure, high blood sugar, glaucoma and physical dependence to the list of side effects.

The immune system suppression part is actually frightening if you take froome TUE for Romandie at face value, so they put him on prednisolone for a nasty bronchitis that hampered his breathing, and then let him go ride in the rain and the mountains while on it, that's how you'd get pneumonia if you're unlucky.

 

[RownhamHill]

Re: Re:

That's interesting. Are you sure it was the 26th in 2011 and not 2012? If it was 2011 I'm surprised the Clinic hasn't unearthed that before (though maybe it has, I haven't been paying attention that closely for a while).

Thanks, but to clarify I was asking when the TUE was granted, not when the RR occurred.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Wiggins stating on BBC that he obtain a TUE for triamcinolone to prevent a possible asthma attack! He's on the thin ice there, there's no TUE for preventing, only for treating acute and chronic medical condition.

He had an acute medical condition - asthma (and allergies - what the medicine was actually for). He took the medicine to control those conditions.

The Novo Nordisk team have diabetes. They take insulin with a TUE. They don't wait until the slip into a before applying for a TUE.

Yeah, but the thing is, systemic corticosteroid use is a last resort to treat asthma/allergies nowadays, not the common drug you try to make it sound like. Side effects of long term use are potentially nasty. Coincidentally they have the most potential PE effects of any asthma medication, so it's not hard to put 1 and 1 together...

What do you mean by 'long term use'. Once a year for a few years doesn't seem excessive. As to the 'last resort' his TUE application features a long list of previously tried treatments.

And if you are running a multi million pound sports team and want to fix a problem for the biggest event in the season do you opt for the treatment that has a 50% success rate or the one that has a 99% success rate?

 

[RownhamHill]

Re: Re:

No idea.

It's especially weird given he apparently had the TUE injection in the same day as the road race. Wonder whether that was before or after?

Ok let's be clear on the dates because even the commitee report and Wiggins himself seem to have bit wrong information.

First of all, the TUE forms leaked by Fancy Bears unfortunately don't tell us when the TUE was applied by Sky, but here are the effective dates and expiration dates with some remarks:

- June 2011 - the TUE effective and expiration date is 29th June 2011- so 3 days after the national RR. Wiggins and commitee report seems to talk about 26th, so bit mis-alignment there. The comments for application talks about RAST test performed for allergy of gras pollen on June 2011, thus one would assume the application have been sent during June 2011, after RAST test was performed. Funnily enough, the authorization signature of Zorzoli is dated 30th June thus 1 day after the TUE was effective/expired. The TUE was granted 3 days before TDF.

- June 2012 - the TUE effective and expiration date was 26th June 2012. It is requested to be used for Dauphine 2012, which ended on 10th June - 16 days before the TUE became effective. The comments of TUE refers to TUE application last year on 30/5/11. Given my note above for the RAST test referred in the 2011 TUE, this indicates to me that there were actually 2 separate TUE applications on 2011, one on 30th May which I guess wasn't approved or we may not otherwise be aware of it, and another which effectively became active on 29th June 2011. So they wanted to have TUE already for Dauphine 2011.

- April 2013 - The effective date of the TUE is 22nd April and the expiration date is 30th April (!!!). So this particular TUE was effective 9 days although the discussion here in clinic has been that TUEs are only valid for a day. The comments in the TUE are almost exactly the same as in 2012 application except some updates RAST information. The expiration date was 4 days before Giro start.

None of the TUEs talk about asthma, those are all for pollen allergy. Especially for Giro 2013 this raises interesting question already elaborated by bobbybrown - is there really a need for steroid treatment for pollen allergy when you go and race in Italy during May? Are there really that much pollen in the air? Well we know it didn't really help Wiggo in that particular race... maybe he was still simply too fat.

Thanks for clarifying the detail. The effective date for the TUE of the 29th in 2011 makes much more sense of Wiggins interview yesterday, but is also very much less interesting in general!

EDIT: also agree that the 2013 TUE looks the most dodgy of the three. Belt and braces.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

Wiggins stating on BBC that he obtain a TUE for triamcinolone to prevent a possible asthma attack! He's on the thin ice there, there's no TUE for preventing, only for treating acute and chronic medical condition.

He had an acute medical condition - asthma (and allergies - what the medicine was actually for). He took the medicine to control those conditions.

The Novo Nordisk team have diabetes. They take insulin with a TUE. They don't wait until the slip into a before applying for a TUE.

Yeah, but the thing is, systemic corticosteroid use is a last resort to treat asthma/allergies nowadays, not the common drug you try to make it sound like. Side effects of long term use are potentially nasty. Coincidentally they have the most potential PE effects of any asthma medication, so it's not hard to put 1 and 1 together...

What do you mean by 'long term use'. Once a year for a few years doesn't seem excessive. As to the 'last resort' his TUE application features a long list of previously tried treatments.

And if you are running a multi million pound sports team and want to fix a problem for the biggest event in the season do you opt for the treatment that has a 50% success rate or the one that has a 99% success rate?

A single IM injection will last you through the whole pollen season if you're lucky, you can call that long term effects in my book.

If you have any kind of ethics, you opt for the treatment that is the most beneficial to the athlete health, not the one that will ensure that he will go faster, systemic corticosteroid are a last resort, if you really need those, you're to unwell to ride anyway.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Can I ask a question and I don't know if it has been asked or answered as I haven't gone back through the dozens of pages, but, why does anyone actually care about this?

The parliamentary report stated that no anti doping violations have taken place but sky have 'crossed an ethical boundary' Team Sky are a privately funded team, why do the government feel it necessary to stick their nose in?

Professional sport is result orientated, there are rules in place, if no rule has been broken, why does it matter? professional teams will always go as far as they can up to the line, this happens in all sports. If a footballer dives in the penalty area to get a penalty, that is crossing an ethical line, but there isn't this fervour to brandish them a cheat to this extent.

If I am not mistaken, TUE's have to be granted by a panel of experts after the medical facts are presented to them? if that panel have the wool pulled over there eyes and grant a TUE, then surely that is where the spotlight should be? the team have only done what they can to tip the balance in their favour, at the end of then day a board of medical professionals were presented with evidence and signed off on the TUE's why then is Bradley Wiggins being branded a cheat? Why is the board that grant the TUE's not been held accountable? And surely if their medical expertise resulted in the granting of the TUE's, how is this now such a big issue? surely some kind of medical need had to be established? and if it cannot be established then the TUE system needs a massive overhaul and that should be the story, not a team working within the system that was in front of them

Also if I am not mistaken Triamcinalone is not a banned substance out of competition either? so if the team wanted to use it during training blocks, this is also not illegal, so again what is the issue? Also if it is such a powerful performance enhancer why is it not on the complete banned list by WADA?

Caffeine is a limited drug during competition as well, but if riders choose to use inflated levels and drink 30 espressos before training that is surely no different?

I am just so confused why everyone is piling on as if Bradley Wiggins and Sky are the same as Lance and USPS, they systematically were using EPO and blood bags which were illegal

All I see Sky and Wiggins guilty of is studying the rules of the game better than others (or finding loopholes in the rulebook) none of which are illegal. Have they been found guilty of breaking any rules on this matter? if not, to me it is a non-story. Professional sportsmen and teams will use any small advantage to win, as professional sport is result based, like it or not

BTW this is not a Team Sky/Wiggins love fest. I would have the same puzzled response is this were any team or rider

Jarvo: Your posts may be few, but your insights, intuition and common sense are right on the mark.

because the system can be gamed if you have a doc (in this case that would be the doc who lost the laptop and never turned up to the committee) who is prepared to say you need a TUE when you may not need a TUE

If that were to be the case then there is an infringement

also not sure if you noticed that the pharmacy cupboard was a shared resource between BC and SKY and...well...they have no records....

oh...and we have an 'outperforming' track team at BC... lots of enhanced performances there.......

Rabbit warren of after the fact sleuths on duty today. All for great purpose of justice and all that. FFS. :lol: :lol: :lol:

yup discussing newsworthy event on a...eh...discussion board...crazy eh....I'm a crazy guy

Discussion?

Must have missed that part ... while you were engrossed with impersonating a DS, Team Doctor, WADA specialist, MP and a host of other popular roles.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Wiggins stating on BBC that he obtain a TUE for triamcinolone to prevent a possible asthma attack! He's on the thin ice there, there's no TUE for preventing, only for treating acute and chronic medical condition.

He had an acute medical condition - asthma (and allergies - what the medicine was actually for). He took the medicine to control those conditions.

The Novo Nordisk team have diabetes. They take insulin with a TUE. They don't wait until the slip into a before applying for a TUE.

Yeah, but the thing is, systemic corticosteroid use is a last resort to treat asthma/allergies nowadays, not the common drug you try to make it sound like. Side effects of long term use are potentially nasty. Coincidentally they have the most potential PE effects of any asthma medication, so it's not hard to put 1 and 1 together...

What do you mean by 'long term use'. Once a year for a few years doesn't seem excessive. As to the 'last resort' his TUE application features a long list of previously tried treatments.

And if you are running a multi million pound sports team and want to fix a problem for the biggest event in the season do you opt for the treatment that has a 50% success rate or the one that has a 99% success rate?

Parker ... being difficult, again, I see ... as you are wont to be.

Wiggo turned his poncy nose up at the offer of a bangers 'n mash poultice from me gran. Would have had him right as rain before the big race. So ... feck him. May he rot in hell! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

If you have any kind of ethics, you opt for the treatment that is the most beneficial to the athlete health, not the one that will ensure that he will go faster, systemic corticosteroid are a last resort, if you really need those, you're to unwell to ride anyway.

And the corticosteroid in this case is the best available treatment. It might not be the standard everyman option, but it's the best.

And as to ethics, where do you stand on letting injured riders (ones with broken bones) continue? Is that the most beneficial to their health? No, of course not. But it may be most beneficial to the athlete's situation.

To quote someone I know "If I only played when I was fully fit, I'd never play at all"

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Parker ... being difficult, again, I see ... as you are wont to be.

I can't help it. My idealism has been infected by pragmatism though experience.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

Wiggins stating on BBC that he obtain a TUE for triamcinolone to prevent a possible asthma attack! He's on the thin ice there, there's no TUE for preventing, only for treating acute and chronic medical condition.

He had an acute medical condition - asthma (and allergies - what the medicine was actually for). He took the medicine to control those conditions.

The Novo Nordisk team have diabetes. They take insulin with a TUE. They don't wait until the slip into a before applying for a TUE.

Yeah, but the thing is, systemic corticosteroid use is a last resort to treat asthma/allergies nowadays, not the common drug you try to make it sound like. Side effects of long term use are potentially nasty. Coincidentally they have the most potential PE effects of any asthma medication, so it's not hard to put 1 and 1 together...

What do you mean by 'long term use'. Once a year for a few years doesn't seem excessive. As to the 'last resort' his TUE application features a long list of previously tried treatments.

And if you are running a multi million pound sports team and want to fix a problem for the biggest event in the season do you opt for the treatment that has a 50% success rate or the one that has a 99% success rate?

Parker ... being difficult, again, I see ... as you are wont to be.

Wiggo turned his poncy nose up at the offer of a bangers 'n mash poultice from me gran. Would have had him right as rain before the big race. So ... feck him. May he rot in hell! :lol: :lol: :lol:

He isn't "being difficult", when he tries to pass triamcinolone as a perfectly normal drug to take for seasonal allergies, he is propagating a falsehood (either by ignorance or deliberately i don't know) and is called out on it.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

If you have any kind of ethics, you opt for the treatment that is the most beneficial to the athlete health, not the one that will ensure that he will go faster, systemic corticosteroid are a last resort, if you really need those, you're to unwell to ride anyway.

And the corticosteroid in this case is the best available treatment. It might not be the standard everyman option, but it's the best.

And as to ethics, where do you stand on letting injured riders (ones with broken bones) continue? Is that the most beneficial to their health? No, of course not. But it may be most beneficial to the athlete's situation.

To quote someone I know "If I only played when I was fully fit, I'd never play at all"

The best by what metric? To win a bike race, sure. To the athlete long term well being, no, not by a long shot, so as a medical treatment it isn't the "best" at all, unless your definition of medicine is akin to the definition of medicine of a doping doctor.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Can I ask a question and I don't know if it has been asked or answered as I haven't gone back through the dozens of pages, but, why does anyone actually care about this?

The parliamentary report stated that no anti doping violations have taken place but sky have 'crossed an ethical boundary' Team Sky are a privately funded team, why do the government feel it necessary to stick their nose in?

Professional sport is result orientated, there are rules in place, if no rule has been broken, why does it matter? professional teams will always go as far as they can up to the line, this happens in all sports. If a footballer dives in the penalty area to get a penalty, that is crossing an ethical line, but there isn't this fervour to brandish them a cheat to this extent.

If I am not mistaken, TUE's have to be granted by a panel of experts after the medical facts are presented to them? if that panel have the wool pulled over there eyes and grant a TUE, then surely that is where the spotlight should be? the team have only done what they can to tip the balance in their favour, at the end of then day a board of medical professionals were presented with evidence and signed off on the TUE's why then is Bradley Wiggins being branded a cheat? Why is the board that grant the TUE's not been held accountable? And surely if their medical expertise resulted in the granting of the TUE's, how is this now such a big issue? surely some kind of medical need had to be established? and if it cannot be established then the TUE system needs a massive overhaul and that should be the story, not a team working within the system that was in front of them

Also if I am not mistaken Triamcinalone is not a banned substance out of competition either? so if the team wanted to use it during training blocks, this is also not illegal, so again what is the issue? Also if it is such a powerful performance enhancer why is it not on the complete banned list by WADA?

Caffeine is a limited drug during competition as well, but if riders choose to use inflated levels and drink 30 espressos before training that is surely no different?

I am just so confused why everyone is piling on as if Bradley Wiggins and Sky are the same as Lance and USPS, they systematically were using EPO and blood bags which were illegal

All I see Sky and Wiggins guilty of is studying the rules of the game better than others (or finding loopholes in the rulebook) none of which are illegal. Have they been found guilty of breaking any rules on this matter? if not, to me it is a non-story. Professional sportsmen and teams will use any small advantage to win, as professional sport is result based, like it or not

BTW this is not a Team Sky/Wiggins love fest. I would have the same puzzled response is this were any team or rider

Jarvo: Your posts may be few, but your insights, intuition and common sense are right on the mark.

because the system can be gamed if you have a doc (in this case that would be the doc who lost the laptop and never turned up to the committee) who is prepared to say you need a TUE when you may not need a TUE

If that were to be the case then there is an infringement

also not sure if you noticed that the pharmacy cupboard was a shared resource between BC and SKY and...well...they have no records....

oh...and we have an 'outperforming' track team at BC... lots of enhanced performances there.......

Rabbit warren of after the fact sleuths on duty today. All for great purpose of justice and all that. FFS. :lol: :lol: :lol:

after the facts?! this forum has existed a long time and numerous contributors have pointed to skys (and other teams) suspicious results long before now!

Go for it, mate.

Just a suggestion ... discuss what you 'know.' Concede what you don't know. Add a little bit of speculation to taste. Garnish cautiously ( it can be overpowering) with suspicion ... if want to go all out and impress your hosts.

That's a reasonable expectation of most healthy, within the rules of good practice, debate and discussion.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

He isn't "being difficult", when he tries to pass triamcinolone as a perfectly normal drug to take for seasonal allergies, he is propagating a falsehood (either by ignorance or deliberately i don't know) and is called out on it.

It's not unusual. Here's the first link that came up on Google: https://www.everydayhealth.com/specialists/allergies-asthma/feldweg/qa/kenalog-shots-for-allergies/index.aspx

It might not be what you you would take. Your employer can manage without you for a few days if you have a bad attack. But if you're sports team that has put months of work into this you are going to use the best option available.


Put it this way. One of your kids is sitting exams that will define their future. GCESs/SATs etc. They get really bad hay fever that could flare up at that time during exam period. You have two choices of medicine. The government approved version with a 50% success rate, or the (unapproved but non-dodgy) Internet pill option with a confirmed 100% success rate. Which one do you buy?