Wiggins Discussion thread.

[movingtarget]

I think Wiggins is underrated as a climber. Yes he is more of a diesel but sometimes he gets dropped and claws time back and minimises his losses. He knows what he is capable of. He is a similar climber to Evans, Menchov and co. Nibali often puts in good attacks but gets caught or does not make big time. I like his aggression but he is not a great climber who can attack and attack continuously. Both Nibali and Wiggins have improved and are better all round riders. Be interesting to see what happens over the next season or two for both of them. Nibali should do better at Astana. Liquigas are not the force they used to be.

 

[del1962]

If you look at the Verbier in 2009, it was Wiggins that dragged Nibali up the mountain in chase of Contador and Andy Scleck, not Nibali dragging Wiggins.

I don't see how Nibali could take any significant amount of time out of Wiggins in the mountains.

 

[The Hitch]

) but i wouldn't say he was a stronger climber overall.

He wouldnt even need to be. He has 6 minutes to play with. Riders who crack hard on stages often lose less than that.

The fact that he actually outpwrformed.nibali on the upholl finishes where a strong team is the least imporrant, just smashes to pieces this idea that in a individual race nibalo would win.

 

[Eshnar]

Because there was nothing stopping Nibali following Froome and Wiggins on Peyragudes.

Actually Nibs had a muscle contracture that day (right leg triceps if I remember). After the stage he said he didn't crack but simply suffered for that. The next stages he wore a bandage on it (it was clearly visible during the ITT).

That said I'm not claiming anything. Just for the sake of the supposed truth.

 

[Parrulo]

Actually Nibs had a muscle contracture that day (right leg triceps if I remember). After the stage he said he didn't crack but simply suffered for that. The next stages he wore a bandage on it (it was clearly visible during the ITT).

That said I'm not claiming anything. Just for the sake of the supposed truth.

i actually thought he was already wearing those bandages on the stage where he cracked but you are right he only wore them the following day.

i am actually eager to see the wiggin vs nibali battle at next years giro. the route doesn't lack tough mountains unlike the tour and still has an early huge time trial where wiggins can gain minutes. and wiggins won't have the best climber in the race working for him there nor will nibali be alone after just a couple k's of climbing. so i think the battle for the win will be much closer then it was at the tour.

 

[cineteq]

The fact that he actually outpwrformed.nibali on the upholl finishes where a strong team is the least imporrant, just smashes to pieces this idea that in a individual race nibalo would win.

Weak argument. Wiggins needed a team to get fresher to the end of the stages. All of the sudden you and airtream are dismissing the importance of having a team just because? If anything Nibali wouldn't have won because of the muscle pulled, but who's to say he would have had it if Wiggins had no team, i.e. no Froome.

PS: I suggest you watch Run Lola Run

 

[airstream]

How do you suggest he defends without working on the front? Contador won it in 2010 by reacting to Andy's attacks and sealing it in the ITT. Wiggins would have never been able to pull that off that first part, even with climbers less skilled as Andy. We actually saw that happen. Without Froome pulling him back, who knows what would have happened and how much time he would have lost. He would also have been more tired by the time the final ITT arrived.

Because he was the MJ, then state of things absolutely suited him and he could ride how he wants. The main problem is to arrange proper carnage strong teams are needed (we had no them by Sky, and we would have had no them without Sky. It could have been a lame team powerlessness). Strong climbers are often not enough. In addition to gain a lot of time strong climbers must work together and overly consensually which is hard to assume 'cos very likely they ride in different teams. I absolutely sure even Schleck and Contador, working together, are not able to give 3-4 Tourmalet during a GT, because no matter how one would like to overrate ones and belittle others, the contention among 5-6 best climbers when they are on form is VERY tight. The 2011 Giro and the 2012 Tour were rather exceptions in this regard.

He would also have been more tired by the time the final ITT arrived

How about tiredness of hypothetical attackers, ah? IMO, to attack is much more energy-intensive than to sit behind Wiggins, isn't it?

You reason like if strong climbers offered an intensive torn tempo with lot of attacks, it would have demoralized Wiggins and he would have given up. It is not so. I think he could quietly have sat behind other climbers. He could sit probably behind all but Nibali and VdB sometimes. If like of Pinot had tried something, Wiggins even wouldn't have budged.

 

[William H]

If Wiggins had absolutely no team support, he'd probably have struggled, as anyone would.

If he'd had the same level of support as Nibali had, he'd still have won.

If he'd swapped teams with Nibali, then Froome + Nibali might well have have been able to take him down.

 

[del1962]

Weak argument. Wiggins needed a team to get fresher to the end of the stages. All of the sudden you and airtream are dismissing the importance of having a team just because? If anything Nibali wouldn't have won because of the muscle pulled, but who's to say he would have had it if Wiggins had no team, i.e. no Froome.

PS: I suggest you watch Run Lola Run

I suggest you watch the Verbier 2009 and see who dragged Nibali's *** up the mountain.

 

[cineteq]

I suggest you watch the Verbier 2009 and see who dragged Nibali's *** up the mountain.

It's irrelevant. We're talking 2012.

If he'd had the same level of support as Nibali had, he'd still have won.

It's debatable, but it would've been close. Remember Nibali was just +2.23 @ stage 16 before he got injured and lost time to Wiggins on stage 17. I'm sure Wiggo would have been behind Nibali by stage 16 had he got same team support as Los Squalo. The question is what would have been the difference between the two after the last ITT?

 

[The Hitch]

Weak argument. Wiggins needed a team to get fresher to the end of the stages. All of the sudden you and airtream are dismissing the importance of having a team just because? If anything Nibali wouldn't have won because of the muscle pulled, but who's to say he would have had it if Wiggins had no team, i.e. no Froome.

PS: I suggest you watch Run Lola Run

You act as if the assertion proves itself.

Having asked me and airstream for a"backup" you continue to provide NO backup. You just say tautologise again and again and again, "you are wrong nibali would win".

No one is dismissing the importance of having a team, we are asking how nibali, whose great achievement was scraping the weakest vuelta ever by 30 seconds over mosquera and has a history.of cracking himself is suddenly going to fly away from wiggins for minutes.

 

[cineteq]

Having asked me and airstream for a"backup" you continue to provide NO backup. You just say tautologise again and again and again, "you are wrong nibali would win".

I've already provided my take, and you called it a 'wild theory'. Here it is again for your enjoyment.

Nibali would have won since Froome wouldn't have been there, remember no team?, and Wiggins would have cracked for 3 reasons, he doesn't respond well to pace changes, he's not a good descender and his mind is so fragile. Thus his last ITT would have been subpar, unless he would've previously retired.

Moreover, I realigned my thoughts if Wiggo team support = Nibali's

It's debatable, but it would've been close. Remember Nibali was just +2.23 @ stage 16 before he got injured and lost time to Wiggins on stage 17. I'm sure Wiggo would have been behind Nibali by stage 16 had he got same team support as Los Squalo. The question is what would have been the difference between the two after the last ITT?

On the other hand, you're stuck on the 6 min. difference as if that means anything. Had Wiggo got no team support or same level support as Nibali's the result would have been different. You don't seem to understand that each important stage would've had different outcome, and most likely Wiggins would've been behind Nibali by stage 18.

we are asking how nibali, whose great achievement was scraping the weakest vuelta ever by 30 seconds over mosquera and has a history.of cracking himself is suddenly going to fly away from wiggins for minutes.

We can speculate all we want, but Giro 2013 is around the corner, and we'll see what happens.

 

[Parrulo]

with nibali's support wiggins would be by himself half way up the croix de fer instead of having 4 team mates with him. i fairly sure that would make a difference the moment evans attacked as instead of rogers wiggins would have to chase himself. he would also have to chase himself on richmound instead of using porte, he would also have to close the gap on la toussuire to a group of 4 guys working together all by himself instead of using froome and would be in the same situation on peyresourde when nibali attacked.

if all that didn't have any influence on the final outcome of the race i don't know what would have. maybe wiggins being sprayed with an hot italian expresso right after being kicked in chest by a kangoroo?

 

[The Hitch]

I've already provided my take, and you called it a 'wild theory'. Here it is again for your enjoyment.


Moreover, I realigned my thoughts if Wiggo team support = Nibali's


On the other hand, you're stuck on the 6 min. difference as if that means anything. Had Wiggo got no team support or same level support as Nibali's the result would have been different. You don't seem to understand that each important stage would've had different outcome, and most likely Wiggins would've been behind Nibali by stage 18.

No that's just the theory your repeating. Where is the backup- examples of stages where nibali has shown the kind of form to overturn the advantage wiggins had in the tt . And your assertion that wiggins would have performed worse in the time trials. How do you know he wasn't tired for them? He was clearly on his limit on peyresguades and there was a sprint stage between that and the tt. The prologue.would.be unaffected and the first tt, there was a pdbf and a mountain stage before that but 1st week like all the other tts wiggo smashed this year. Would he really lose that much time?

Show us some backup that 6 minutes is a wrong figure.

We can speculate all we want, but Giro 2013 is around the corner, and we'll see what happens

The 2012 tour was the one with the 100k of tt and with no.mtfs. We don't even know.if wiggins will care about the giro.

We? Nope, that's your agenda. You are notorious for trying to hurt posters by attacking their fave riders, which is irrelevant to the discussion, when you have a lost battle. The fact that's irrelevant defeats your purpose, i.e. no one gets hurt.

Surprise.surprise cineteq takes a discussion where everyone is talking calmly about cycling and makes it personal with flaming and baiting.

Have i attacked you in this discussion?
no.

Then why are you trying to start another fire?

 

[The Hitch]

with nibali's support wiggins would be by himself half way up the croix de fer instead of having 4 team mates with him. i fairly sure that would make a difference the moment evans attacked as instead of rogers wiggins would have to chase himself. he would also have to chase himself on richmound instead of using porte, he would also have to close the gap on la toussuire to a group of 4 guys working together all by himself instead of using froome and would be in the same situation on peyresourde when nibali attacked.

if all that didn't have any influence on the final outcome of the race i don't know what would have. maybe wiggins being sprayed with an hot italian expresso right after being kicked in chest by a kangoroo?

You can't just take the way the race played out and project that onto this imaginary race. If wiggins didn't have the postal train riders wouldn't be desperately attacking 60k out to disrupt the postal train.

But say it did happen.this idea that Evans nibali and jvdb would ride of holding hands into a tdf podium sunset is lovely and all but i don't believe in the fairy godmother.

If they tried it, like cadel up galibier he would have got his head together.gritted his teeth and done what has to be done to catch them.or.work.with others and limit his.losses. Not all of the othera were strong enough to.keep.going away from him in any way. Evans sure as he'll was not.

 

[movingtarget]

i actually thought he was already wearing those bandages on the stage where he cracked but you are right he only wore them the following day.

i am actually eager to see the wiggin vs nibali battle at next years giro. the route doesn't lack tough mountains unlike the tour and still has an early huge time trial where wiggins can gain minutes. and wiggins won't have the best climber in the race working for him there nor will nibali be alone after just a couple k's of climbing. so i think the battle for the win will be much closer then it was at the tour.

For that to happen, Nibali will have to improve his TT and apart from Rogers and Froome missing, Sky will still field a strong team of climbers. I just think if Nibali gains time in the mountains it will have to be big time or he will have to hope that Wiggins does not ride the TTs as well as he did in this year's Tour. Should be interesting and Ryder and Rodriguez have to be thrown into the mix as well. Should be a good contest.

 

[BlenJones2]

For me the potential Wiggins V Rodriguez battle is more intersting than W v Nibali. Rodriguez will always take time out of him especially with time bonuses so it could come down to time bonuses vs TT

 

[Dazed and Confused]

For me the potential Wiggins V Rodriguez battle is more intersting than W v Nibali. Rodriguez will always take time out of him especially with time bonuses so it could come down to time bonuses vs TT

I agree, but it appears J-Rod won't start in the Giro '13.

 

[airstream]

if wiggins didn't have personal wind cutter working for himself he would have lost significant time on la toussuire and maybe even on the peyresourde. don't underestimate the effect to drag on shallow climbs

Don't underestimate the fact that on shallow 4-5% sections time trialist Wiggins pushes such a big gear than Nibali even is not able to pedal properly. I think both Wiggins and Froome had something in tank on La Toussuire and they would necessarily have shown this if Nibali was a direct threat for them which was not so. La Toussuire was just cat and mouse where cat distinctly realized its advantage.

 

[Angliru]

For that to happen, Nibali will have to improve his TT and apart from Rogers and Froome missing, Sky will still field a strong team of climbers. I just think if Nibali gains time in the mountains it will have to be big time or he will have to hope that Wiggins does not ride the TTs as well as he did in this year's Tour. Should be interesting and Ryder and Rodriguez have to be thrown into the mix as well. Should be a good contest.

Nibali in my eyes has shown a steady progression in performance over the years with the one blip being his Vuelta performance of 2011. I'm hoping his learning curve (and performance) is still heading upwards. Wiggins on the other hand has just reached his ultimate goal after 2 years of supreme sacrifice. Will he still have the same motivation and willingness to commit to that level of training and prep with his goal accomplished? He's saying that his new goal is to win the other 2 grand tours to cement his place in cycling history as one of the greats.

My point is with the demands upon his time that his recent success will bring I personally don't think we'll see the same rider that tore through virtually every stage race he entered last year. This while Nibali could be still on that upward curve of a maturing grand tour contender.

 

[Afrank]

I agree, but it appears J-Rod won't start in the Giro '13.

Unless the reason for the team not getting into WT is something clinic related and involves Rodriguez, Katusha should easily get one of the wildcards for the Giro.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Unless the reason for the team not getting into WT is something clinic related and involves Rodriguez, Katusha should easily get one of the wildcards for the Giro.

My comment was before knowing Katusha didn't get WT status. Now I think J-Rod will go to to Giro.

 

[Afrank]

My comment was before knowing Katusha didn't get WT status. Now I think J-Rod will go to to Giro.

Ah, I see. My mistake then.

 

[Cimber]

José Been @TourDeJose 9s
Wiggins just told BBC he will lead Team SKY in TDF2013. Now I am confused. (Tip @robertcunliffe). Sort it out, please


I so hope he will. The former champ needs to be there.

 

[ILovecycling]

José Been @TourDeJose 9s
Wiggins just told BBC he will lead Team SKY in TDF2013. Now I am confused. (Tip @robertcunliffe). Sort it out, please


I so hope he will. The former champ needs to be there.

Nooo,he is to much cobarde.Or...he thinks that Contador is going to Giro