Wiggins - Hour Record

[Alex Simmons/RST]

This means there will not be any bike available that is as fast as Obree's or Boardman's Lotus. The positions are banned now as well.

The world 4km pursuit record was set using the current bike and position rules.

 

[TShame]

Boardman rode 51 kilometers, then rode a 4:09 pursuit.
His average was 4:15.
His record pursuit had a dangerously slow start (first 1/2 kilo),
followed by an average 60 kph.

Kudos to Bobridge.
My point is still valid, Bobridge would have gone faster if he was on a Lotus.

Don't confuse a 4 km pursuit with the hour record.
I have done both and there is no comparison.

 

[TShame]

Last 3 k was 3.02.2

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Don't confuse a 4 km pursuit with the hour record.
I have done both and there is no comparison.

I'm not, just saying that the current position/bike regulations have not prevented a world record being beaten.

I am pretty familiar with the demands of each event. I have coached a successful world hour record and ridden plenty of pursuits myself, including a silver medal at Aussie Nationals and state record at Team Pursuit.

There is one thing that both events share, and that's the rider with highest power to aero drag ratio goes the fastest.

Obviously the power in the pursuit is higher and the physiological requirement means that anaerobic work capacity meets about 25-30% of the energy demand in a 4km pursuit (versus ~1-2% in an hour effort) with the vast majority of the balance being aerobic energy production.

The "Superman" position is not always faster for all riders.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

His record pursuit had a dangerously slow start (first 1/2 kilo),
followed by an average 60 kph.

I'm not so sure that such a start is dangerous (it was a record after all). Over cooking the opening 2 laps is the biggest mistake made by most.

Besides, Boardman had very low peak power (max 5-sec < 900W) so he would not have been all that fast off the line and would have "lost" time there. But that lack of fast twitch fibre simply was more than compensated by a phenomenal aerobic engine and great aerodynamics.

 

[bc_hills]

I'm not so sure that such a start is dangerous (it was a record after all). Over cooking the opening 2 laps is the biggest mistake made by most.

Besides, Boardman had very low peak power (max 5-sec < 900W) so he would not have been all that fast off the line and would have "lost" time there. But that lack of fast twitch fibre simply was more than compensated by a phenomenal aerobic engine and great aerodynamics.

Hi Alex, what kind of peak power would one expect from a contender for the hour record? And this next question is maybe unrelated, but is there a difference between peak power produced while in an out of the saddle hill climb and the power produced while time trialing?

Thanks!

 

[TShame]

When I said "dangerously", I did not mean that in an unprofessional way, of course. I just meant in comparison with the other rider. I think Chris was down a few seconds on the first kilo. His opponent went out way too fast and wound up with a disastrous last kilo, 1:09, if I remember correctly. (edit: I was thinking of a race of Obree's, where he started way behind. Boardman was only down 2 seconds.)

As to the question of peak power versus average power for a time trial, the average (if in an ideal aero position) is about 6.4 watts per kilogram for men. In pursuit, I would say about 7.6. (Maybe with Bobridge's new record, it might even be higher.) For women, about 5.7 and 6.6 wt/kg (same order).

Peak power will only affect how quickly you get up to speed from a standing start. Peak power for these events is probably about double the average watts for the event. More important than measuring peak power, would be your first lap time versus your total time. ( If you put too much power into your first lap, your total time may be even slower than if you start a little less aggressively.)

 

[TShame]

Jack vs. Chris

1:06.77 1:08.96 Jack up by 2.19
1:00.50 1:00.88 Jack up by 2.57
1:01.53 1:00.69 Jack up by 1.73
1:01.73 1:00.59 Jack up by 0.58

4:10.53 4:11.11

side by side

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Hi Alex, what kind of peak power would one expect from a contender for the hour record?

Peak power isn't relevant for an hour attempt, and everyone is different in that respect. Put it this way, Boardman's peak power was not a lot more than 850W, I'm an amputee cyclist (lower leg) and can do 1200W at peak. But I can't even do a kilo TT as fast as Boardman can do an hour!

Power requirements for an hour record are best expressed in terms of power to aerodynamic drag ratio - Power /CdA, measured as W/m^2.

For the athlete hour of 49.7km (standard mass start track bike), then you'll need something in the vicinity of 1650 - 1680 W/m^2, depending on air density and rolling resistance (assumes air density of 1.18kg/m^3 and Crr of 0.0023 - which is low and assumes a very fast track/excellent tyres/inner tubes).

e.g. if your CdA is 0.26m^2, then you'll need to have an average power for the hour of ~ 430-440W.

For the Boardman record of 56.375km, then you'll need ~ 2,430W/m^2

For the 4km pursuit record (4:10), then you'll need ~ 2,750W/m^2

Those numbers goes up and down depending on air density (hotter and lower pressure is faster). Temp at track when Bobridge rode his pursuit was very hot (even though it was indoor). I know, I was competing there myself and it was scorching hot.

And this next question is maybe unrelated, but is there a difference between peak power produced while in an out of the saddle hill climb and the power produced while time trialing?

We can typically produce more power for brief durations when out of the saddle, but normally we can't sustain long efforts out of the saddle.

Power we can produce in a TT may be lower than seated hillclimb power due to the different positions on the bike. Some people also need to train to keep the pressure on the pedals on flatter ground as it's far easier to have micro rests on flat terrain than when climbing.

In a flat TT to get the fastest average speed you can trade off some power production for an improvement in aerodynamics, provided the combination is faster overall (highest W/m^2).

In a hillclimb, speed is all about power to weight ratio.

At a gradient of ~ 2%, it's about even between each factor.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

By the way, for those interested in the various records, here is the official list from UCI website:

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/g...bjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=NTg5ODQ&LangId=1

 

[bc_hills]

Thanks for all that! It is a compelling record, that's for sure. It's interesting to see how little the One Hour record has moved (Ole Ritter to Sosenka is not much more than a 1 km gain) compared to the Best Hour.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Thanks for all that! It is a compelling record, that's for sure. It's interesting to see how little the One Hour record has moved (Ole Ritter to Sosenka is not much more than a 1 km gain) compared to the Best Hour.

Yes, the aerodynamic improvements since then have been far less for the hour record than the best hour.

 

[AeroAdvantage]

i recall reading that ekimov held 1hr record before moser…a quick google check puts his at 49.672 meters

that’s only few m below sosenka’s and more that 200 m over boardman’s uci record.

anyone got a clue as to why eki’s record does not figure in the books ? it was indoors and so was sosenka’s…

On the 27/10/1986 at the age of twenty, Viatcheslav Ekimov broke the AMATEUR World Hour Record with a distance of 49.672 kilometres while riding a Rossin bike which was equipped with the optimal aero dynamic equipment available at the time.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...t_eF3V&sig=AHIEtbQypdMaWE3ck6h2hS-V9c8Wa2Rnpw

Can't find an image of the actual bike he rode. But I presume it would be quite similar to the Rossin Bike seen at this link :

http://www.londoncyclesport.com/ind...ready-to-return&catid=43:gear-news&Itemid=102

Which also quotes :

It was a Golden era for the Italian cycle industry and Rossin developed many of the advances in technology that other builders later adopted, including the first sloping top tubes and ‘horned’ handlebar TT and track bikes used by both the Russian and US team at the LA Olympics, remember Eric Heiden, he rode Rossin and later by Viatchelav Ekimov when he claimed the Indoor hour record on a Rossin by riding 49.672km

 

[BigBoat]

Cancellara could break the absolute hour record or the standard bike record. He doesnt want to. There's lots of guys who could break it, their not interested. Its not a hobby of theirs.

Grand Tours & one day classics are all FTP races, for guys who have super high FTP per Kilos. Which is what the hour record is all about.

Why do no ex pros go for the HPV records? Because they dont care thats why. The HPV record's would be smashed by many pro cyclists, but their not interested in those because their too busy making money in pro cycling which has tangible monetary rewards. Either racing or management. Management takes up more time than riding by the way.

 

[AeroAdvantage]

Eddy Merckx had to fund his own record attempt in 1972.

http://bikeraceinfo.com/riderhistories/Merckx-Hour-Record.html

Eddy was to ultimately pay over $20,000 of his own money to fulfill his purist dream

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Does he possess or another in the current peleton capabale of beating Boardmans 56.375kph ??

I actually think that one is going to take a technological step more than simply some superb effort. Hence, put Cancellara on the same bike, same Superman position with practice, and I think he could probably break it with a great deal of effort. I'm not sure who else could though. In another few years there will a better bike/position or something else allowed, and that's when someone will hop on the bike and break it. But it probably won't be a big name rider who does it.

The traditional record, I believe several riders today could beat it, Canc again being the most obvious. Probably Martin, Wiggins as well. That is if he (or others) were interested. But I think most simply aren't. It isn't viewed as having the prestige it did 30+ years ago.

 

[UncleChainwhip]

Ekimov's Hour

Used custom bars/stem originating from the fork crown......great adaptation for a shorter stature rider. The legendary "Moscow Effect' of the indoor HVAC was said to have played a part in this and other Soviet records. International riders have commented on this advantage via multiple competitions during same season/form curves. Non-Soviets never quite got the "blender" turned on!

Keep it up, i love this stuff.....

 

[cromagnon]

The Hour isn't just about power, rather the measured application of it. That is something that Wiggins has years of experience of. Wiggins comes from a pursuiting background just as Boardman did. Plus he has one of the fastest tracks in the world to train on in his back yard.

What?

You calculate the target power and you maintain it, if you can give a bit more in the last 3 km you do it. Everything I have read (inc Dr Pete Keen's presentation on it), all suggest the same thing.

 

[ultimobici]

What?

You calculate the target power and you maintain it, if you can give a bit more in the last 3 km you do it. Everything I have read (inc Dr Pete Keen's presentation on it), all suggest the same thing.

If you read my post properly, you'd see I said just that. Wiggins comes from a track background, specifically pursuiting, where the discipline to ride at a particular level is key to success. The majority of Hour Record holders have had track backgrounds, with only a handful having to adapt to the track.

 

[cromagnon]

If you read my post properly, you'd see I said just that. Wiggins comes from a track background, specifically pursuiting, where the discipline to ride at a particular level is key to success. The majority of Hour Record holders have had track backgrounds, with only a handful having to adapt to the track.

I did read it properly that's why I picked up the suggestion of some vague "track factor" being important in maintaining highest possible power output.

Merckx, Moser, Indurain, Rominger, Obree, Boardman.

Only the last two have a track background so your last sentence is ill-informed. You might want to read your sources properly?

Come to think of it I remember some controversy about Obree's praying mantis position. So we're possibly down to 1/5 holders with a track background. A majority would require over half (half of 5 is 2.5 so we'd need 3/5).

Glad I could help.

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[ultimobici]

I did read it properly that's why I picked up the suggestion of some vague "track factor" being important in maintaining highest possible power output.

Merckx, Moser, Indurain, Rominger, Obree, Boardman.

Only the last two have a track background so your last sentence is ill-informed. You might want to read your sources properly?

Come to think of it I remember some controversy about Obree's praying mantis position. So we're possibly down to 1/5 holders with a track background. A majority would require over half (half of 5 is 2.5 so we'd need 3/5).

Glad I could help.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Funny I thought the Hour was older than the 70's. Coppi, Anquetil etc all rode the track extensively. Merckx too rode the Sixes so was an experienced track rider.

Ignore all you like. Sounds like you can't or won't accept any other point of view. Your loss, mate.

 

[Mambo95]

I did read it properly that's why I picked up the suggestion of some vague "track factor" being important in maintaining highest possible power output.

Merckx, Moser, Indurain, Rominger, Obree, Boardman.

Only the last two have a track background so your last sentence is ill-informed. You might want to read your sources properly?

Come to think of it I remember some controversy about Obree's praying mantis position. So we're possibly down to 1/5 holders with a track background. A majority would require over half (half of 5 is 2.5 so we'd need 3/5).

Glad I could help.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Of the post war record holders, Coppi, Riviere, Bracke, Moser, Boardman and Obree were all World Champions at the Individual Pursuit. Ritter, Anquetil and Baldini were medallists. Merckx rode and won many six day races. Only Rominger, Indurain and Sosenka weren't trackies.

 

[hmsgenoa]

Most people believe Eddy and Boardman raced clean during their whole career.

I have to take issue with this, it is simply wrong to state this. I speak with regards to Eddy Merckx, who tested positive for banned substances three times during his career. To make an assertion that most people believe he raced clean during his whole career shows that you do not actually know that much about Eddy Merckx's career.

Check his career out on Wikipedia

As for the record suffering a loss of prestige, as stated by some in this thread, this is also nonsense. The fact that it hasn't been attempted recently is merely testament to today's athletes understanding the level of committment the record requires and fitting it in their schedule. There is no point taking it on unless you know you can better it, and nobody wants egg on their face.

The UCI Hour Record is also 'on the shelf' in a similar way to Sebastian Coe's 800m mark, in athletics, that stood for 16 years. As far as trying to ensure equality in record attempts goes maybe the UCI should insist on toe clips and straps and woollen shorts being used as well as a traditional bike. I can understand the sentiment though; that they want a traditional bike to be used to compare to the Merckx/Boardman records. After all look at the difference in Boardmans records; 49.441k against 56.375k (Superman).

Until Wiggins, Cancellara attempt it and fail who can state with any certainty that they have/haven't got what it takes to do it? They are both performing in time trials at a level which indicates they could take it on and feasibly succeed. I don't expect the fact that Coppi was a 'mountain man' and skinny as a rake worried him too much when he took the record. I don't see why it (the fact that he has focussed on becoming a tour contender) should worry Wiggins too much either; a couple of months different diet and training schedule could change his aptitude for it altogether.

 

[Echoes]

because it's totally random, just like the UCI

There's nothing random about it. Lenticular wheels were not sanctioned by the UCI in 1984. No aerodynamical gain were allowed.

There's a reason if the UCI rejected Francis Faure's record (1933) on an aerodynamic recumbent.

The only thing that the UCI can be blamed for is to have waited 16 years before rejecting the Moser record.

On the 27/10/1986 at the age of twenty, Viatcheslav Ekimov broke the AMATEUR World Hour Record with a distance of 49.672 kilometres while riding a Rossin bike which was equipped with the optimal aero dynamic equipment available at the time.

It's considered as a "performance". On a traditional bike, Ekimov did 48448m in 1985, which is less than Merckx and less than the three marks by Ritter.

I have to take issue with this, it is simply wrong to state this. I speak with regards to Eddy Merckx, who tested positive for banned substances three times during his career. To make an assertion that most people believe he raced clean during his whole career shows that you do not actually know that much about Eddy Merckx's career.

And to make an assertion that the first two of these tests (especially the very first one) were valid tests shows that you do not actually know that much about Eddy Merckx's career either !

 

[hmsgenoa]

And to make an assertion that the first two of these tests (especially the very first one) were valid tests shows that you do not actually know that much about Eddy Merckx's career either !

Did I state whether the tests were valid or not? Of course for my statement to mean anything then you could say that I believe they were, but in fact, I was questionning the statement that most people believe Merckx raced clean throughout his career. Had Merckx never tested positive (just like Lance heh?) then maybe the statement could arguably be a valid one. Don't read more into something than is there.

And your suggestion that I don't know much about Merckx's career is a load of old baloney. I know as much as the next man. Look back at my statement, read it again, understand it - ie what I was saying precisely; it is wrong to state that most people believe Eddy Merckx raced clean throughout his entire career.

I can tell you that a former colleague and friend of Merckx's became a soigneur for six day riders during the 80's and habitually offered his clients amphetamines, often giving them a choice of different types; "which one of these would you like?"...."I'll have both". I'm not saying Merckx is guilty by association - but you have to understand use of amphetamines was endemic. Its simply unrealistic to suggest Merckx was clean throughout his career (and beating riders that 'charged up' while he alone was clean). The bans they handed out at that time were akin to a slap on the wrist.

Remember Merckx himself raced in the same era as Tommy Simpson.

Whether it's EPO or Amphetamines, a banned substance is a banned substance. I'm saying that to state Merckx raced clean throughout his entire career, which took place in an era when the athletes felt it was acceptable to 'charge up' (and liked to justify the use of amphetamines), is like burying your head in the sand. Now go ahead Mastermind and tell me how much you know about Merckxs career - if you think it can be measured or are daft enough.