Wiggins speaks about drugs

[Susan Westemeyer]

And I am opening it again in the hopes that the rational discussion can now continue.

Susan

 

[the big ring]

FWIW, there's a local climb that takes around an hour to do. A group of guys I regularly train with and I would head out there to do 1-2 repeats of it. Tough climb, pretty unrelenting, 1km ascent. 60+ minutes was always the result.

Then one day, one of us did a sub-60, and before you knew it, the entire group had done a sub-60.

We're talking guys who have been riding for 5+ years together, so yes, still some possibility of physiological improvement, but I definitely think there was an element of "hey! if he can do it, so can I" involved. ie a psychological break through as much as anything.

Having experienced this, I can empathise with the process Wiggans says he is going through when he sees VdV finish top 5 clean.

 

[luckyboy]

Have to say that improving a few minutes on a 1km climb is a bit different to going from the grupetto on every mountain stage to placing 4th on GC. A 'psychological breakthrough' wouldn't be enough to do that.

 

[blackcat]

Have to say that improving a few minutes on a 1km climb is a bit different to going from the grupetto on every mountain stage to placing 4th on GC. A 'psychological breakthrough' wouldn't be enough to do that.

I think Hamilton is most instructive. You have Hamilton and Marty Jamieson go to Prentice Steffen and ask for him to rectify their medical program.

These riders are alpha characters, sportsmen who are used to winning. They are not killing themselves to be a pro cyclist, and forgo the same benefits like StrongArm accesses. Have you heard any gripes or resentment from riders like Wigans or Vande Velde, about StrongArm returning and his medical program?

It just defies belief, to have an athlete, who can maintain a different ethic, in a sport where the gains (or neutralisation of disadvantage) are on the scale of cycling. And Vande Velde and Wigans were never standout youths. We know Vaughters tried a little propaganda, with CVdV saying he outperformed StrongArm in a pre-season lactic acid test. But we never saw evidence that Vaughters and Wigans were once a generation riders.

And to come clean, in the Tour, and effectively be the first rider in the Tour, when you subtract the dopers, in 4th on classement, this is just not plausible, they would need to be the once in a generation riderS! Two once in a generation riders, fancy that.

Kohl jumps from a mediocre 2007, to the podium in 2008. CVdV and Wigans had never done anything before, indeed, Wigans was an autobus stalwart, and they make a leap the same as Kohl. Then we are told about stupid justifications like weight loss, focus, preparation, but not "preparation". The Anglophones definitely get a major pass on this.

NB. Funniest part of the 2009 Tour for me was Vaughters on Versus telling Liggett when Wigans was following StrongArm over a cat 2 berg, that it was a "metaphor".

Damn right JV.

 

[luckyboy]

Then we are told about stupid justifications like weight loss, focus, preparation, but not "preparation". The Anglophones definitely get a major pass on this.

Yeah, that gets on my nerves a bit. Everyone screams at Di Luca, Ricco, the Spanish, European cyclists as doping, but Cadel, UK guys, Aussies, Garmin etc are all clean. Then I think maybe it's because it might be more accepted there/there's more of that culture, but Tom Simpson was 40+ years ago..

NB. Funniest part of the 2009 Tour for me was Vaughters on Versus telling Liggett when Wigans was following StrongArm over a cat 2 berg, that it was a "metaphor".

Damn right JV.

Heh

 

[blackcat]

JV also said CVdV was a rider who needed time, much racing a preparation to find form, and be at his best.

Then he breaks his hip or whatever, in the Giro, then still returns and is in the top 10 in the Tour. What did he break, his hip and collar? Or just one. And then he returns and comes top 10.

Another maxim from blackcat: "in the oxygen doping techniques epoch, the term form is but a euphemism for managing one's medical program and hitting the right blood parameters."

 

[badboygolf16v]

Walsh does not believe. You think he is credible?

Is any of Walsh's scepticism available online? I would be interested to read it.

 

[python]

let me add perspective to one of the arguments.

i think sometimes high gc placing in a grand tour ('top 10, top 20') is more overrated than an experienced observer will be willing to 'take home'.

say a 200 strong peloton in july ended up 150 strong.

how many of the 200 were going for classment in august all along ? a dozen, two dozens ?

the rest are there for a variety of coloured garments, trinkets, points, euros or supporting those who after the spoils.

a true gc rider is a rare specialist in a sense. like a sprinter or a climber.

'top ten' may very well equal 'bottom 1/3 of the gc cast. not as glamorous sounding...

and another point. great conversions/transitions across specializations are rare but not unknown. a world class pursuit rider transitioning into endurance freak is easier to imagine than a bulky sprinter climbing ala pantani (and there were few of those).

 

[luckyboy]

Pantani was a bulky sprinter?

Fair enough on the GC point.

 

[python]

how did you manage climbing ala pantani=pantani is a sprinetr

 

[blackcat]

how did you manage climbing ala pantani=pantani is a sprinetr

depending on the rider, a top 10 would be swapped for a stage win in a heartbeat.

So riders who can score a top 10, will deliberately lose time, to get in a move where the maillot jaune will let them ride in a break.

Generally the top 8 will be decided on selective stage finishes. Then the outliers, they may ride into the top 10, because a rider like Evans, does not want to ride for a spot in the top 10, and will lose some time on purpose. Like a KOM contendor, Rasmussen will generally lose time in the first flat stages, so he can ride away on the mtn selective stages, not being a threat.

You also need to take a look at how far down they are, some years a 10th place will be 20 minutes back on GC. That puts the achievement in a different light.

 

[python]

what i am telling you bc is that there many ways to skin a cat. including a black one.

 

[blackcat]

I agree. You can use the pressure cooker the bunny got in Fatal Attraction, works to skin all furry manimals.

 

[luckyboy]

how did you manage climbing ala pantani=pantani is a sprinetr

"a world class pursuit rider transitioning into endurance freak is easier to imagine than a bulky sprinter climbing ala pantani"


You said that a pursuit rider turning into an endurance freak is easier to imagine than a bulky sprinter like Pantani climbing?

Unless you left out some punctuation or something


EDIT: Oh I get it - a bulky sprinter turning into a climber like Pantani was a climber.

 

[pmcg76]

Might regret this but here goes anyway.

Wiggins improved from riding in the autobus to 4th in the Tour.

Vandevelde was a decent domestique who improved to 4th in the Tour.

Lance went from being a good one day rider to being a dominating Tour rider.

Would I be correct in assuming that out of these 3, Wiggins is the rider that improved the most by quite a distance.

What would allow him to improve so much more than the others.

I think most on here believe Contador and other top contenders are jacked but also believe that many of these guys would be way more naturally talented than Wiggins.

Is this really a case of Wiggins being far more naturally talented than just riding in the autobus or the fact he had 'greater room' to improve his assistance than the other guys. Are people begrudging him on here by suggesting his improvements are solely down to doping and that he has no road talent. I didnt think it was possible to improve as much as it was possible back in the old days so to be, it has to be more than just a doping programme to improve by so much.

By the way, I dont think Wiggins will be anywhere near 4th this year.

 

[Big GMaC]

Might regret this but here goes anyway.

Wiggins improved from riding in the autobus to 4th in the Tour.

Vandevelde was a decent domestique who improved to 4th in the Tour.

Lance went from being a good one day rider to being a dominating Tour rider.

Would I be correct in assuming that out of these 3, Wiggins is the rider that improved the most by quite a distance.

What would allow him to improve so much more than the others.

I think most on here believe Contador and other top contenders are jacked but also believe that many of these guys would be way more naturally talented than Wiggins.

Is this really a case of Wiggins being far more naturally talented than just riding in the autobus or the fact he had 'greater room' to improve his assistance than the other guys. Are people begrudging him on here by suggesting his improvements are solely down to doping and that he has no road talent. I didnt think it was possible to improve as much as it was possible back in the old days so to be, it has to be more than just a doping programme to improve by so much.

By the way, I dont think Wiggins will be anywhere near 4th this year.

I think Wigans has greater natural talent than most people give him credit for, he was a phenomenal track rider in his time. I know now there are the young Aussies coming through, but I still think that he had a faster time in him and kept things pretty steady in the IP at Beijing, what with coming in having been ill and needing to ride 3 tough events.

I also think there is something in the whole attitude change thing, change in belief thing, I mean after the 2004 games he spent the best part of a year following in his fathers footsteps, battling depression and alcoholism, none of which could have done wonders for his performance at the time.

That is not to say I don't think he has been charging in some way, be it through blood or incredibly good recovery doping etc. I do think that he has more talent than people credit him with

 

[blackcat]

I think Wigans has greater natural talent than most people give him credit for, he was a phenomenal track rider in his time. I know now there are the young Aussies coming through, but I still think that he had a faster time in him and kept things pretty steady in the IP at Beijing, what with coming in having been ill and needing to ride 3 tough events.

He prolly had 2 or 3 seconds up his sleeve, on a fast track, fast conditions, and au bloc.

 

[blackcat]

Is this really a case of Wiggins being far more naturally talented than just riding in the autobus or the fact he had 'greater room' to improve his assistance than the other guys. Are people begrudging him on here by suggesting his improvements are solely down to doping and that he has no road talent. I didnt think it was possible to improve as much as it was possible back in the old days so to be, it has to be more than just a doping programme to improve by so much.

Wigans was more talented than where he was riding. He had no reason to ride hard, besides the chronos and the prologue, and pull a peloton to help a teammate.

I think he will be 3rd place, and he will be the guy most likely to climb with Contador and Andy Schleck this year, and his final chrono, he will likely be second to Cancellara, if Cancellara decides to ride for the win.

I reckon his improvement was 99% by tweaking his program. But he competes on talent, like the other guys next to him. Just because you tweak your program, does not mean you do not have any talent. I think the 2002 Tour, a rider with arguably far more talent, Raimondas Rumsas competed with a wife in a camper van program. He had already won Lombardia amongst other great results. He came second if you net out the TTT. He only gave up 5 mins about, to StrongArm, if you net out the TTT. Who knew of Rumsas. Obviously prodigious in talent, but he was not competing with StrongArm's advantages.

There are lots who could do what Wigans is doing. But his 3rd this year, will be on a playing field that allows competitors to pursue such advantages. Wigans is far less an imposter than Frank Schleck.

Riis was a middling domestique, and won the Tour. There.

 

[luckyboy]

Cancellara's too big (weighs too much) to be able to try something like this without seriously damaging his TT right? Always thought it'd be cool to see him do it for some reason.

I can't even remember how big Wiggins was before.

 

[blackcat]

Cancellara's too big (weighs too much) to be able to try something like this without seriously damaging his TT right? Always thought it'd be cool to see him do it for some reason.

I can't even remember how big Wiggins was before.

no. Wigans did get to 80kg. 190cm 80kg

Cancellara is 186cm, 6'1", and 82 kg.

Miguel Indurain is 188, 80kg.

Cancellara outclimbed Basso back on the Tour of Germany queen stage in about 2002. It was a queen stage like an Ardennes tour however. Back When ToG was a 2.2 cat in the old scale, which is about a 2.1 cat now. A middling race.

Cancellara always voiced ambitions to attempt to win the Tour, if you knew of him.

He won Tour de Suisse last year, albeit the promoters put the parcours on for him. I think his first major breakthru on a mtn stage was in 2006 Tour de Suisse. When he was defending his jersey I recall. I may be wrong, all off memory.

If Wigans can do it, Cancellara can also. See how much faster than Wigans he was in London. What was it, 30 seconds, over 10km. Cancellara prolly got about 10 seconds on the start and finish because he is that much more explosive, plus the chicane corners, where he went thru super fast.

Cancellar would need to drop about 6 kgs atleast.

Hincapie whipped Wigans in the prologue in London also. I think Cancellara, Hushovd, Hincapie, Farrar, Renshaw, all would have beaten Wigans in a pursuit, if they had the equivalent track skillset. Which I openly admit, is specialized.

 

[Big GMaC]

Cancellara's too big (weighs too much) to be able to try something like this without seriously damaging his TT right? Always thought it'd be cool to see him do it for some reason.

I can't even remember how big Wiggins was before.

The truth is no one has a clue how much anyone weights. I mean, you just have to look at StrongArm to go WTF on weights... I mean you get within I reckon +- 3/4kgs by guessing, but you will never know exactly

 

[blackcat]

listed weights do provide a starting point tho

 

[Big GMaC]

listed weights do provide a starting point tho

Yes, then it is +- 3/4 kgs, ok maybe 2/3

 

[blackcat]

I think some are weighed during the testing before the Tour?

But it does not matter, you can look at Cancellara, and see where he can lose the weight, and work out where his climbing is at, when he is au bloc. All that weight on his flanks and upper body can go, there is nigh on 5.

 

[luckyboy]

no. Wigans did get to 80kg. 190cm 80kg

Cancellara is 186cm, 6'1", and 82 kg.

Miguel Indurain is 188, 80kg.

Cancellara outclimbed Basso back on the Tour of Germany queen stage in about 2002. It was a queen stage like an Ardennes tour however. Back When ToG was a 2.2 cat in the old scale, which is about a 2.1 cat now. A middling race.

Cancellara always voiced ambitions to attempt to win the Tour, if you knew of him.

He won Tour de Suisse last year, albeit the promoters put the parcours on for him. I think his first major breakthru on a mtn stage was in 2006 Tour de Suisse. When he was defending his jersey I recall. I may be wrong, all off memory.

If Wigans can do it, Cancellara can also. See how much faster than Wigans he was in London. What was it, 30 seconds, over 10km. Cancellara prolly got about 10 seconds on the start and finish because he is that much more explosive, plus the chicane corners, where he went thru super fast.

Cancellar would need to drop about 6 kgs atleast.

Hincapie whipped Wigans in the prologue in London also. I think Cancellara, Hushovd, Hincapie, Farrar, Renshaw, all would have beaten Wigans in a pursuit, if they had the equivalent track skillset. Which I openly admit, is specialized.

Yeah I remember him saying something about winning the Tour. And he was great in London - I was there

Didn't know that about him outclimbing Basso though..