Wiggins Sports Scientist work for English Rugby

[armchairclimber]

Anyone who thinks that the England rugby (or cricket) teams use performance enhancing anything has obviously not seen them play in quite a while - or they need to be demanding their money back because it sure aint working.

Good point. Aussie sport in general needs to visit the chemist and get its money back.

 

[vander]

In rugby it is generally the use of creatine rather than illegal substances that builds muscle fast on players. It is still legal I believe and used by many.

Ever looked into or used creatine? It is not very good at building muscle mass at all (though it can add a lot of water weight quickly), its main use is high intensity repeated intervals because it is proposed to increase the creatine phosphate which helps with the re-synthesis of ATP.

 

[sittingbison]

...English rugby is now going down the 'marginal gains' route...

OK, at last a sport I know something about

The marginal gains England need are learning to pass, catch, tackle and kick

Oh, and fashion sense

BTW there is a real steroid problem in South African rugby schools. Not trying to be offensive, just stating fact. And if its at that level, its certainly at international level.

 

[blackcat]

In rugby it is generally the use of creatine rather than illegal substances that builds muscle fast on players. It is still legal I believe and used by many.

muscle and water retention.

the muscle stuff will be igf-1 I reckon. And some chaser of hgh

they did not change from the rugby physiques of the 80's, to NFL physiques of tight-ends on bread, water, creatine.

 

[peterst6906]

they did not change from the rugby physiques of the 80's, to NFL physiques of tight-ends on bread, water, creatine.

No of course not.

They did it on the pitch, training 6 hours a day. What else could it be?

 

[sittingbison]

No of course not.

They did it on the pitch, training 6 hours a day. What else could it be?

Apropos of not much, it should be pointed out the game was amateur up to 1996, and only fully professional after 2000. The body shape differences are the result of full time professional training along with team based but personalised training programs supervised by sports scientists ans physiology experts.

This is completely independent to doping practices.

 

[Tinman]

No of course not.

They did it on the pitch, training 6 hours a day. What else could it be?

Must be that 6 hour training routine which gives these 15-20 year olds in the junior and development programs (as well as school and suburban gyms) the severe back acne that we see when they so keenly show off their torso's.

 

[del1962]

Must be that 6 hour training routine which gives these 15-20 year olds in the junior and development programs (as well as school and suburban gyms) the severe back acne that we see when they so keenly show off their torso's.

Gym's now are far more common than in the 70s/80s, never had one in the school I attended but they are fairly comon now, you seem like someone who wants to make insinuations based on nothing more than your own prejudices or just a wind up merchant, which of these two categories fits you best,

 

[coinneach]

No of course not.

They did it on the pitch, training 6 hours a day. What else could it be?

The gym?

Actually, only half joking...its the best way to build muscle mass, and use of by rugby players when they went pro and could devote themselves to training 24/7 went up massively

 

[Tinman]

Gym's now are far more common than in the 70s/80s, never had one in the school I attended but they are fairly comon now, you seem like someone who wants to make insinuations based on nothing more than your own prejudices or just a wind up merchant, which of these two categories fits you best,

Everyone deserves to have an opinion, but if you chose personal innuendos or attacks then please be specific. Happy to hear specifics.

I am also a 1962 vintage, assume from your nickname you are. My son is 16, and keenly into the gym scene. We have a decent weight bench at home, which I rarely use, prefer the aerobic stuff myself. I have seen gyms on the inside for many years, and I am in touch with kids and adolescents about what goes on there. Inside gyms and on the web. Zyzz ring a bell? And I have a bit of "pharmaceutical" know how also. Including the interface with sport.

So let me know what specifically you'd like to discuss more. Can PM also if you like.

 

[JimmyFingers]

OK, at last a sport I know something about

The marginal gains England need are learning to pass, catch, tackle and kick

+10000000 from this Englishman

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

The idea that the England coaching and management set up, created a structure of PED use for players that weren't even assets owned by them and with whom they had contact with for a relatively short period of time during the rugby calendar, is completely laughable, even by Clinic standards.

Some questions:-

Did the clubs, who owned the players, know about this?
If not, did each of the players willingly put their contracts at risk and each and every one not tell their employers what was happening?
If so, did the clubs happily go along with this, in the knowledge that the use of their prime assets was being put at risk by another party?
Or are all the clubs at it and, if so, why is Sir Clive under the spotlight particularly here?
If all the clubs are it, why do you assume that none of the other nations were at it (which you seem to refer to by suggesting that England stole a march on the other nations)?

Didn't something like this happen in cycling?

A few points:

what if the international players were given supplements to take without their clubs knowledge? If the RFU scientists were 100% sure they weren't going to test positive (or they were 'protected') why would this be an issue?

What if these products were only taken during international training camps and during the time the players spent together with the national set up?

what if players were responsible for their own program, independent of club and country, but with the tacit approval of one or both?

Maybe lots of nations are / were doing it, but England did it best?

what if the testing procedure is all about not catching the right people for the right products?

 

[del1962]

Didn't something like this happen in cycling?

A few points:

what if the international players were given supplements to take without their clubs knowledge? If the RFU scientists were 100% sure they weren't going to test positive (or they were 'protected') why would this be an issue?

What if these products were only taken during international training camps and during the time the players spent together with the national set up?

what if players were responsible for their own program, independent of club and country, but with the tacit approval of one or both?

Maybe lots of nations are / were doing it, but England did it best?

what if the testing procedure is all about not catching the right people for the right products?

If you want to discuss doping in Rugby I suggest you do it on a broader basis rather than coming across as some embittered anti-English fool. You have no evidence that English rugby is any way more involved in doping than rugby in genreral.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

If you want to discuss doping in Rugby I suggest you do it on a broader basis rather than coming across as some embittered anti-English fool. You have no evidence that English rugby is any way more involved in doping than rugby in genreral.

In my posts here I have also expressed concerns about NZ and SA.

I would also like to add that there have been several positive tests in the French club competition.

 

[coinneach]

Didn't something like this happen in cycling?

A few points:

what if the international players were given supplements to take without their clubs knowledge? If the RFU scientists were 100% sure they weren't going to test positive (or they were 'protected') why would this be an issue?

What if these products were only taken during international training camps and during the time the players spent together with the national set up?

what if players were responsible for their own program, independent of club and country, but with the tacit approval of one or both?

Maybe lots of nations are / were doing it, but England did it best?

what if the testing procedure is all about not catching the right people for the right products?

As a big fan of British Sport, I think you've got some fair points there; equally valid in Rugby & Cycling

I have often worried about "suppliments/right products", they may be legal just now BUT BUT BUT.....

All I can say to reassure you is there's a big difference in mentalities in the sports & organisations: Rugby has never had a big drug scandal, cycling's had loads. British Cycling comes out of the Olympic track programme: they are a really tight organisation founded on clean sport. IMHPO british cycling is officially clean.

When rugby went pro, there was much less /no focus on ethical issues. I know the parents of one international rugby union player worried about their son taking stuff: they asked him, and he denied it. Who knows??
The team that showed the biggest leap in fitness, for whatever reason, at last RWC I think was Wales, and its not doing them much good now!

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

As a big fan of British Sport, I think you've got some fair points there; equally valid in Rugby & Cycling

I have often worried about "suppliments/right products", they may be legal just now BUT BUT BUT.....

All I can say to reassure you is there's a big difference in mentalities in the sports & organisations: Rugby has never had a big drug scandal, cycling's had loads. British Cycling comes out of the Olympic track programme: they are a really tight organisation founded on clean sport. IMHPO british cycling is officially clean.

When rugby went pro, there was much less /no focus on ethical issues. I know the parents of one international rugby union player worried about their son taking stuff: they asked him, and he denied it. Who knows??
The team that showed the biggest leap in fitness, for whatever reason, at last RWC I think was Wales, and its not doing them much good now!

I am concerned that rugby is not testing for the right products. A sport in which body shape and strength levels have changed so quickly, recovery from injury so vital, and in which the very limits of legal supplement use are being explored should have seen a heckuva lot more positive tests.

I mean, in SA it's an open secret there is a steroid culture in top level rugby from high school and up - yet no one tests positive at the professional level.

If one looks at the UK anti doping agency stats you see that both codes of rugby constitute a high number of positive tests compared to other sports. Yet it all must be at levels below publicity because no professional players have been caught.

So it's only the guys who aren't good enough that are dabbling.....probably because they're lazy.....

 

[RownhamHill]

If you want to discuss doping in Rugby I suggest you do it on a broader basis rather than coming across as some embittered anti-English fool. You have no evidence that English rugby is any way more involved in doping than rugby in genreral.

You're obviously not familiar with his alter-ego on the Guardian. . .

That said, this thread represents everything I love and hate about the Clinic.
Based on everything I know about Rugby (both how it's played, and the culture around it) it just seems so obvious to me that pretty much the whole of professional rugby is drowning in steroids et al - England in 2003, Wales last year, any southern hemisphere team ever, the whole lot of them - so is worth talking about.

And yet, where is the evidence for any particular accusation? And what's more, if I'm just going to throw enough mud around on the basis that some might stick, does that really make me the best champion of cleaner, more ethical anything?

 

[JimmyFingers]

The forum jumps up and down and gnashes it teeth if you dare say there is national bias, yet we have a thread related to wiggins and Sky arbitrarily discussing doping in English rugby, and in particular the 2003 WC winning team.

Oh wait concern has been expressed about NZ and SA.

Just wondering if Mongol is an Aussie?

Because this thread, as many do, stinks of bias

 

[Ferminal]

My house is better than yours.

 

[RownhamHill]

Just wondering if Mongol is an Aussie?

Because this thread, as many do, stinks of bias

I don't know his nationality - obviously - but under another pseudonym, Mongol is fairly well known on the Guardian sports blogs as being a particularly one-eyed fan of Welsh Rugby. Think Ryo on Colombian cyclists (and all that entails) on these boards as a good comparison.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Then presumably this thread can be put to bed? Prurient nonsense

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The forum jumps up and down and gnashes it teeth if you dare say there is national bias, yet we have a thread related to wiggins and Sky arbitrarily discussing doping in English rugby, and in particular the 2003 WC winning team.

Oh wait concern has been expressed about NZ and SA.

Just wondering if Mongol is an Aussie?

Because this thread, as many do, stinks of bias

The thread title is about Wiggins coach going to English Rugby - pretty simple then that any chat should revolve around (wait for it) English rugby.

Rugby has a pretty poor record with doping - attempting to dismiss someones point on nationality shows your bias - no-one else's.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The thread title is about Wiggins coach going to English Rugby - pretty simple then that any chat should revolve around (wait for it) English rugby.

Rugby has a pretty poor record with doping - attempting to dismiss someones point on nationality shows your bias - no-one else's.

Again, amazing interpretation. Much like your amazing insight earlier in the thread to one of my posts.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I don't know his nationality - obviously - but under another pseudonym, Mongol is fairly well known on the Guardian sports blogs as being a particularly one-eyed fan of Welsh Rugby. Think Ryo on Colombian cyclists (and all that entails) on these boards as a good comparison.

This isn't me.....I am banned from the Guardian for over a year for telling the truth about Lance.

Plus I don't like Welsh rugby that much.

 

[Tinman]

This isn't me.....I am banned from the Guardian for over a year for telling the truth about Lance.

Are you really...? Maybe there are two or three Mongol_Waaijer's... Here is the one defending Lance appearing at a Hoorn triathlon in Sept this year. Here's what (s)he wrote in support of him, in this thread on 11 Sept. Must have been quite something getting you banned by the Guardian...

Lance Armstrong has a very special position in the Netherlands where his success started. At that time he had even a Dutch girlfriend. In the Netherlands we have the opinion that you should not play back to the future with taking away titles of the past from Lance. Writing this I know that the opinion in the States is totally different. Mart Smeets, our most senior Sport Report on cycling supports this story as well. Famous cyclists like Leontien van Moorsel also support this opinion.
This shows that we never punish sporters on this for life and for that reason we feel sorry for Lance.

I totally agree that Lance can not compete on professional cycle courses anymore and I respect the rules of the WADA on that. I do not respect the opinion that he can never participate in recreative Running events like ours. And we can not be bounded by WADA rules indeed. Everyone should have the right participating in a local sport event. We do not check on drugs so I see no reason why he should not be welcome in our event. I do not belief that this will cause any damage. In the Netherlands this is not such a big deal. We belief that Lance will generate a positive vibe around our event.