Wiggins to release blood test records

[Cobber]

Yeah. He has been tested 12 times in the past year and a half? I guess the UCI and WADA are blowing all their money on testing Armstrong.

Nobody wants talk about the increase in hemoglobin and stimulation index from Limoges to Sion? A quick way to get hematocrit (not the most accurate) is to multiply Hgb by 3. His hematocrit went from 42 to 46.5 (guessing that point at Sion is ~15.5). That's a 10% increase between the 2 rest days.

It doesn't necessarily indicate doping, but it is kinda confusing.

I think releasing blood profiles is just a PR game.

OK.. dumb question.... could the slight increase in numbers from the Sion test (2009 TdF) and the 3rd Giro sample be caused by slight dehydration? I could see how it could for hemaglobin, not sure about off Score. Regardless, these numbers are only very slightly high and I would think would be within the margin of error.

It would be really nice to see a chart like this for someone who was proven to dope (maybe Di Luca?), for comparison....

 

[Parrot23]

When Brailsford talks about suspicious values of readers he has checked for Sky, he must be referring inter alia to the 134 ceiling (the blue line at the top on the profile charts, and the profile/slope of the curve). He talks about riders who are right up against the limits. Think Bordry says the same thing.

Riders who are targetted are prob. up around the blue line, among other things. Hematocrit is no longer the defining criterion, and rough extrapolations here from Hgb are no better than the VO2max extrapolations at Verbier.

Cycling Weekly:

"The graphs show the “Off Score”, which is calculated from the relationship between haemoglobin levels and the percentage of reticulocytes (immature blood cells). A maximum off score of 134 is permitted – Wiggins recorded well below that, and his values dipped throughout the two Grand Tours he rode, which is typical.

We understand that haematocrit levels are no longer used as a primary indicator of blood manipulation – although readings are taken, the test is no longer taken immediately, and it has been shown that storage and transit can alter the figure."

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/385285/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france-blood-values.html

Road.cc:

"The upper limit for the off score is 134 (the blue line). Wiggins gets nowhere near that limit, topping out at about 100 and trailing off to just below 85 by the end of the Tour. A normal score is in the 85-95 range, which is where Wiggins' curve spends nearly all of its time. That the numbers fall towards the end of the two major Tours is also a good sign, as that's what would naturally be the case during a tough race"

http://road.cc/content/news/6117-wiggins-bio-passport-numbers-released

P.S.: BigBoat, you must have enjoyed the VO2max extrapolations at Verbier, showing Lance with a putative max of >90ml, LOL. I don't believe it: neither should you.

 

[Cobber]

OK.. another question.....

Autologous blood transfusions raise the Off Score because increase in hemoglobin/reticulocyte ratio. EPO, on the other hand, stimulates the bone marrow to produce more reticulocytes. So, theoretically, it should be possible to boost hematocrit by carefully administering both autologous blood transfusions and EPO at the same time while maintaining the same Off Score. Hematocrit could then be artificially lowered by saline IV.

Is this at all possible? How hard would it be to control the blood values with this amount of precision?

 

[Anonymous]

you gotta love it round here..

dont post your results and youre a doper
post the results and youre just a clever doper

 

[Cobber]

you gotta love it round here..

dont post your results and youre a doper
post the results and youre just a clever doper

Don't get me wrong, I think Wiggo's clean. I was hoping that someone who knows something about this stuff would come back and post "there is absolutely no way you could dope and have numbers as consistent as Wiggo's numbers."

 

[Parrot23]

OK.. another question.....

Autologous blood transfusions raise the Off Score because increase in hemoglobin/reticulocyte ratio. EPO, on the other hand, stimulates the bone marrow to produce more reticulocytes. So, theoretically, it should be possible to boost hematocrit by carefully administering both autologous blood transfusions and EPO at the same time while maintaining the same Off Score. Hematocrit could then be artificially lowered by saline IV.

Is this at all possible? How hard would it be to control the blood values with this amount of precision?

Cobber, maybe try posting your question on the autologous thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=2613&page=6

 

[dienekes88]

Oddly enough, I'd like to believe he's clean.

However, if Lance posted these numbers, people would be all over him like stink on poo.

When Brailsford talks about suspicious values of readers he has checked for Sky, he must be referring inter alia to the 134 ceiling (the blue line at the top on the profile charts, and the profile/slope of the curve). He talks about riders who are right up against the limits. Think Bordry says the same thing.

Riders who are targetted are prob. up around the blue line, among other things. Hematocrit is no longer the defining criterion, and rough extrapolations here from Hgb are no better than the VO2max extrapolations at Verbier.

Cycling Weekly:

"The graphs show the “Off Score”, which is calculated from the relationship between haemoglobin levels and the percentage of reticulocytes (immature blood cells). A maximum off score of 134 is permitted – Wiggins recorded well below that, and his values dipped throughout the two Grand Tours he rode, which is typical.

We understand that haematocrit levels are no longer used as a primary indicator of blood manipulation – although readings are taken, the test is no longer taken immediately, and it has been shown that storage and transit can alter the figure."

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/385285/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france-blood-values.html

Road.cc:

"The upper limit for the off score is 134 (the blue line). Wiggins gets nowhere near that limit, topping out at about 100 and trailing off to just below 85 by the end of the Tour. A normal score is in the 85-95 range, which is where Wiggins' curve spends nearly all of its time. That the numbers fall towards the end of the two major Tours is also a good sign, as that's what would naturally be the case during a tough race"

http://road.cc/content/news/6117-wiggins-bio-passport-numbers-released

P.S.: BigBoat, you must have enjoyed the VO2max extrapolations at Verbier, showing Lance with a putative max of >90ml, LOL. I don't believe it: neither should you.

OK. Maybe I shouldn't have done the quick calc. However, his hemoglobin did increase by 10%, and his stimulation index went up too. That means there was an increase in hemoglobin without the requisite increase in reticulocytes.

OK.. dumb question.... could the slight increase in numbers from the Sion test (2009 TdF) and the 3rd Giro sample be caused by slight dehydration? I could see how it could for hemaglobin, not sure about off Score. Regardless, these numbers are only very slightly high and I would think would be within the margin of error.

It would be really nice to see a chart like this for someone who was proven to dope (maybe Di Luca?), for comparison....

Dehydration. Well, the test was on a rest day (with other riders this would lead to a "rest day refill" comment ), so hypothetically he should've been euvolemic. They know about staying on top of their electrolytes to avoid hyponatremia.

I'm pretty sure they don't test hematocrit after a race, because the dehydration excuse is too easy.

 

[dienekes88]

OK.. another question.....

Autologous blood transfusions raise the Off Score because increase in hemoglobin/reticulocyte ratio. EPO, on the other hand, stimulates the bone marrow to produce more reticulocytes. So, theoretically, it should be possible to boost hematocrit by carefully administering both autologous blood transfusions and EPO at the same time while maintaining the same Off Score. Hematocrit could then be artificially lowered by saline IV.

Is this at all possible? How hard would it be to control the blood values with this amount of precision?

Well... maybe not at the same time. I'd imagine that you have to separate it by a couple days, because it takes a couple days for the reticulocytes to form. I'm not actually entirely sure which part of the erythrocyte life cycle is classified as "reticulocyte." You're really testing my readiness/willingness to recall histology, but I recall that the cell has to go from proerythroblast to basophilic erythroblast to polychromatophilic erythroblast to orthochromatic erythroblast to normoblast before migrating into the blood. I hope I got that right. Under the microscope they go from blue-ish (basophilic) to pink-ish (eosinophilic).

However, if you're microdosing ALL the time. Maybe you'd just have a better chance of covering your tracks on the bio passport?

 

[Parrot23]

However, if Lance posted these numbers, people would be all over him like stink on poo.

One data point does not equal a profile (="these"). If it were "public relations" (a spin job), they would not publish something that was self-incriminating.

I see Wiggins is going to release all his numbers from 2003 onward:

"My Bood bio passport has been published on the web, in the process of getting together all tests taken from 2003-2008" (Twitter).

 

[elapid]

I'm pretty sure they don't test hematocrit after a race, because the dehydration excuse is too easy.

Dehydration is no excuse. Paired hematocrit-total protein, which is done from the same blood sample and is standard protocol in hospitals, will quickly tell if an increased hematocrit is because of dehydration. Dehydration results in a reduction of the intravascular volume (or hypovolemia) so hematocrit and total protein are both relatively increased. If hematocrit is increased because of doping, the intravascular volume will not be decreased (normovolemia) and hence total protein will remain normal. Simple.

 

[tubularglue]

i would assume a large jump in performance was because of this:

springtime nutrition

 

[dienekes88]

Dehydration is no excuse. Paired hematocrit-total protein, which is done from the same blood sample and is standard protocol in hospitals, will quickly tell if an increased hematocrit is because of dehydration. Dehydration results in a reduction of the intravascular volume (or hypovolemia) so hematocrit and total protein are both relatively increased. If hematocrit is increased because of doping, the intravascular volume will not be decreased (normovolemia) and hence total protein will remain normal. Simple.

hahaha. Tell that to the vampires at the UCI.

Only problem is that it really is an acceptable excuse to the UCI even though its bull**** to a physician. Remember Schumacher's excuse for being over 50% pre-Worlds? Diarrhea. I remember hearing about it a couple other times.

Edited to add: Haha. Maybe he had protein losing enteropathy or something...

 

[dienekes88]

One data point does not equal a profile (="these"). If it were "public relations" (a spin job), they would not publish something that was self-incriminating.

I see Wiggins is going to release all his numbers from 2003 onward:

"My Bood bio passport has been published on the web, in the process of getting together all tests taken from 2003-2008" (Twitter).

Good on him. I hope he can get as close to proving a negative as possible. It'd be VERY good for the sport.

Well, what I was saying was that you can read anything any way you want to read it. I offered one possible reading. There's just so little there that it's nearly impossible to saying anything about it.

That's why I prefaced it by saying that I'd like to believe that he's clean.

 

[elapid]

hahaha. Tell that to the vampires at the UCI.

Only problem is that it really is an acceptable excuse to the UCI even though its bull**** to a physician. Remember Schumacher's excuse for being over 50% pre-Worlds? Diarrhea. I remember hearing about it a couple other times.

Edited to add: Haha. Maybe he had protein losing enteropathy or something...

Yep. The UCI and reality are worlds apart.

 

[BigBoat]

Dehydration is no excuse. Paired hematocrit-total protein, which is done from the same blood sample and is standard protocol in hospitals, will quickly tell if an increased hematocrit is because of dehydration. Dehydration results in a reduction of the intravascular volume (or hypovolemia) so hematocrit and total protein are both relatively increased. If hematocrit is increased because of doping, the intravascular volume will not be decreased (normovolemia) and hence total protein will remain normal. Simple.

The UCI does not take blood samples for a minimum of 2 hrs...Thats the rule. Also, apparently, their in the habit of having coffee with team officials an hour before morning samples collection.

Blood doping with well preserved packed red cells (frozen in nitrogen at -80 C+) will not lower rectics at all due to minimal cell death...And therefore "off score" is useless. NO EPO needed with well preserved whole blood or packed cells. The article on cycling news was biased and did not mention that.

 

[lean mean &green]

Well... maybe not at the same time. I'd imagine that you have to separate it by a couple days, because it takes a couple days for the reticulocytes to form. I'm not actually entirely sure which part of the erythrocyte life cycle is classified as "reticulocyte." You're really testing my readiness/willingness to recall histology, but I recall that the cell has to go from proerythroblast to basophilic erythroblast to polychromatophilic erythroblast to orthochromatic erythroblast to normoblast before migrating into the blood. I hope I got that right. Under the microscope they go from blue-ish (basophilic) to pink-ish (eosinophilic).

However, if you're microdosing ALL the time. Maybe you'd just have a better chance of covering your tracks on the bio passport?

very fathomable to me that the combination of autologous transfusions and microdosing CERA/Hematide (new EPO) could obscure off scores enough to beat biopassport as it currently exists.

the release of wiggins numbers is a "pete rose" to me, when i know they're lying, they know that i know they're lying and they still lie.

hgb mass could bring this game to a grinding hault tho.

 

[Krebs cycle]

OK.. another question.....

Autologous blood transfusions raise the Off Score because increase in hemoglobin/reticulocyte ratio. EPO, on the other hand, stimulates the bone marrow to produce more reticulocytes. So, theoretically, it should be possible to boost hematocrit by carefully administering both autologous blood transfusions and EPO at the same time while maintaining the same Off Score. Hematocrit could then be artificially lowered by saline IV.

Is this at all possible? How hard would it be to control the blood values with this amount of precision?

If you are careful with the timing of the blood draw in the first place (ie: make sure that %retics is normal), then it would be possible to re-infuse your stored blood and then simply manipulate the [Hb] with saline infusion so that the off score remains where it should. They all have years of practice with plasma volume manipulation.

 

[wpsracing78]

Even if he is the most drugged up cyclist in world history of the earth.
This is a better way to go (or lie) than - "next question", or "I haven't failed a test".
At least some guys are willing to tackle it head on and not treat us fans like idiots.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I truly hope wiggins is clean because he seems like a nice, honest guy but we've thought that before then been dissapointed.

 

[blackcat]

Even if he is the most drugged up cyclist in world history of the earth.
This is a better way to go (or lie) than - "next question", or "I haven't failed a test".
At least some guys are willing to tackle it head on and not treat us fans like idiots.

disagree, much more reputable to say "I do not cheat my fellow riders" than do what Garmin does.

"We are clean", ergo, other teams are dirty. Their clean differentiation, is at the expense of other teams. Certainly there are lots of clean riders in Garmin, but there are lots of clean riders in the peloton. If Garmin take the high ground, when they are not clean, and there are other riders who are clean, and their PR communications, is at the expense of them, that is highly unethical.

 

[sars1981]

you gotta love it round here..

dont post your results and youre a doper
post the results and youre just a clever doper

And given cycling's history, what else could an intelligent person think?

 

[Cobber]

The UCI does not take blood samples for a minimum of 2 hrs...Thats the rule. Also, apparently, their in the habit of having coffee with team officials an hour before morning samples collection.

Blood doping with well preserved packed red cells (frozen in nitrogen at -80 C+) will not lower rectics at all due to minimal cell death...And therefore "off score" is useless. NO EPO needed with well preserved whole blood or packed cells. The article on cycling news was biased and did not mention that.

Liquid nitrogen is about -195C. To freeze cells you usually need a preservative (routinely I use DMSO, but you can also use glycerol). Any idea what they use for blood that is to be reinfused?

 

[Cobblestones]

Did we ever get an explanation for the following?

During the Giro, Wiggins's off score took a dive from 85 to 65 and his hemoglobin from 15 to somewhat above 13 g/dl.

During the TdF, the Sion value shows an increase over the Limoges value from 85 to almost 100 for the off score and from 14 to somewhat over 15 g/dl for hemoglobin. Between Sion and Ventoux, he then showed a similar drop as during the Giro with almost -20 on the off score and not quite -2 g/dl for the hemoglobin.

However, due to the aforementioned +jump of the Sion values, the overall decrease in off score and hemoglobin throughout the TdF is practically negligible, compared to the large overall decrease he experienced in the Giro.

The blood data also reflect Wiggins's results in the third weeks of the Giro and TdF. I would argue that the different blood parameter curves are the reason for the difference in performance. Now, what is the reason for the different curves?

What's the deal here?

 

[dienekes88]

Did we ever get an explanation for the following?

During the Giro, Wiggins's off score took a dive from 85 to 65 and his hemoglobin from 15 to somewhat above 13 g/dl.

During the TdF, the Sion value shows an increase over the Limoges value from 85 to almost 100 for the off score and from 14 to somewhat over 15 g/dl for hemoglobin. Between Sion and Ventoux, he then showed a similar drop as during the Giro with almost -20 on the off score and not quite -2 g/dl for the hemoglobin.

However, due to the aforementioned +jump of the Sion values, the overall decrease in off score and hemoglobin throughout the TdF is practically negligible, compared to the large overall decrease he experienced in the Giro.

The blood data also reflect Wiggins's results in the third weeks of the Giro and TdF. I would argue that the different blood parameter curves are the reason for the difference in performance. Now, what is the reason for the different curves?

What's the deal here?

The deal is: nobody loves to hate Twiggo... unlike another rider in the peloton.

I think I mentioned that if "someone else" had posted these numbers, there'd be an outrage.

Lo and behold. That "other guy" did post similar numbers, and we have a massive discussion about it.

It's not science. It's favoritism.

 

[blackcat]

The deal is: nobody loves to hate Twiggo... unlike another rider in the peloton.

I think I mentioned that if "someone else" had posted these numbers, there'd be an outrage.

Lo and behold. That "other guy" did post similar numbers, and we have a massive discussion about it.

It's not science. It's favoritism.

I went hard on Wiggins and JV, and I am told I am smearing him.

Perhaps the Anglos on here should read the foreign language boards and their assumptions on Wiggins.