Rupert said:
I agree Lance can't physically pace Contador in the latter part of a climb, but he could do some tempo riding at the beginning. Mt. Ventoux would be a great opportunity.
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I agree Lance can't physically pace Contador in the latter part of a climb, but he could do some tempo riding at the beginning. Mt. Ventoux would be a great opportunity.
Azdak6 said:
That's a clear indication that the Astana's are refusing to take control of that part of the race. In the old times, US Postal and Discovery would take the race by the neck and set a hellish tempo from the bottom, disallowing any attacks. But that is possible only when you have a few high quality domestiques willing to sacrifice themselves for the leader, a la Heras. Instead you have this new age touchy-feely let's go for a 1-2-3 at the podium bullshit, which basically turns Lance into a vulture, hoping for some unforseen event that might allow him to get his 8th tour instead of turning him into a domestique that is willing to sacrify himself for the leader.
And it is not really speculation about "what he would have done on that situation". The road is open and France is a free country (mostly). Every day he has a chance to take on that role. Every day he can decide to respond to Sastre's attack, or cushion the Schleck attacks by bridging the gap and bringing Contador with him. But he is doing neither. So don't give me the "opportunity hasn't presented itself" line. Every stage is an opportunity waiting to be taken, but Lance has other things in mind.
Ninety5rpm said:
Wrong analogy. Contador is the team leader. He gets licked, doesn't do any licking. That's why we can't find the photo.
Futuroscope said:
Shack Jit? I wouldn't bother Boogling Jit for as far as I know it means Jack ****.
Dictionary comes up with jit ters which could be toilet tantrum type thing. We could be on to something here. I'll just call the Drench Embassy cos I've just hissed me delf
Publicus said:
That's not entirely true. Lance will be given free reign to try to defend his podium spot as long as Contador is fine, but I guarantee if Contador cracks and needs to be paced up the last 4k to save his lead, Lance would sacrifice his podium spot to do it. Astana's (and JB's) primary goal is still the goal that every team has - to arrive in Paris with the MJ.
I can't believe that one of the most stupid threads I have seen on this forum is now 28 pages long...thanks to assholes like me that like to annoy all these fanboys for a good laugh 
Ventoux Fondue
So the scenario for tomorrow looks like it's shaping up. A lot in this Stage is going to depend on how the Break sets up. Big Break because it's effectively the last stage, obviously rare for the Ventoux, but also a big venue like the Alpe. The break should be comprised of:
-some teams that have a GC rider up there (someone to bridge to, or someone to come back and help, plus drops any reason to chase too hard and burn their team on the approach.
-teams with no results in this Tour (a chance to win on Ventoux will rescue a team's dismal results, Ventoux is the last chance because it looks like Cav can sprint from the tunnel in Paris and still win after today)
-maybe some one-off riders from teams looking for one more big bang
That would mean break candidates consisting of:
-Definately a climber from Silence (I think Cadel gives it a try maybe Matt Lloyd)
-Sastre from Cervelo? (he and Evans finished in the second group today, easy over the Cat 2 - saving it getting ready, showed he can't attack the leaders, but the break yes)
-Maybe a Garate or Menchov (has to be banged up tho) from Rabo (salvage for these guys)
-Maybe Zabriske from Garmin (copying Bryuneel's approach with these)
-The entire Euskatel team , well maybe someone or two
-An FdJ guy(s) flyin the flag
-Maybe a Caisse guy (a french bank)
-Moncoutier
-Maybe Lampre climber (Ballan gave it a go today)
-Voeckler? (going for a repeat of RV years back, one more publicity go)
-Definitely like Chavanel plus another QS guy (total panic on that team like Silence)
-Felliu or Moreau from Agritubel
-Like someone like Linus from Milram maybe
-Definately a Skil guy (will want to fly the colors one more time in the biggest stage)
-Oh ya AND from Astana, definitely Zubeldia OR Paulinho (Popo was in the break but finished 9 min back, these other two were 17 back - free wheeling, getting ready), the spanish speakers because the bridge/help is for AC first priority
Nobody up front notables:
No Saxo - missing 2 key guys, 2 guys top 5, need to stay together
Liquigas - with K and Nibali up there > sticking together
Columbia resting for the Champs
That could be a big group (always depends on who makes it), where you have only Rast, Muravyev, Sparticus, O'Grady, David Millar, maybe someone from Liquigas, those guys keeping it close enough but no more sacrifices beyond that. So the break gets out there and up the climb a bit before the favorites hit it.
So you got guys strung out all over the mountain as the favorites ascend, and one trying to stay away like Virenque did, but this time AC will fly by the end (not Lance) and we'll see if he catches the last guy or just misses.
Between Lance, Frank, Kloden, Wiggo, Vdv, Nibali and even Andy it will just end up being a cage death match soup, again with it stringing out all over, favorites, old break riders maybe still up high, like someone opened the monkey cage at the zoo, guys everywhere, pairing up, blood all over the road, Phil screaming "he needs that wheel", Paul talking about peoples' faces of pain, it'll be great and mean absolutely nothing in the end, but great bike racing.
I can't wait.
Prediction: only carnage.
So the scenario for tomorrow looks like it's shaping up. A lot in this Stage is going to depend on how the Break sets up. Big Break because it's effectively the last stage, obviously rare for the Ventoux, but also a big venue like the Alpe. The break should be comprised of:
-some teams that have a GC rider up there (someone to bridge to, or someone to come back and help, plus drops any reason to chase too hard and burn their team on the approach.
-teams with no results in this Tour (a chance to win on Ventoux will rescue a team's dismal results, Ventoux is the last chance because it looks like Cav can sprint from the tunnel in Paris and still win after today)
-maybe some one-off riders from teams looking for one more big bang
That would mean break candidates consisting of:
-Definately a climber from Silence (I think Cadel gives it a try maybe Matt Lloyd)
-Sastre from Cervelo? (he and Evans finished in the second group today, easy over the Cat 2 - saving it getting ready, showed he can't attack the leaders, but the break yes)
-Maybe a Garate or Menchov (has to be banged up tho) from Rabo (salvage for these guys)
-Maybe Zabriske from Garmin (copying Bryuneel's approach with these)
-The entire Euskatel team
, well maybe someone or two-An FdJ guy(s) flyin the flag
-Maybe a Caisse guy (a french bank)
-Moncoutier
-Maybe Lampre climber (Ballan gave it a go today)
-Voeckler? (going for a repeat of RV years back, one more publicity go)
-Definitely like Chavanel plus another QS guy (total panic on that team like Silence)
-Felliu or Moreau from Agritubel
-Like someone like Linus from Milram maybe
-Definately a Skil guy (will want to fly the colors one more time in the biggest stage)
-Oh ya AND from Astana, definitely Zubeldia OR Paulinho (Popo was in the break but finished 9 min back, these other two were 17 back - free wheeling, getting ready), the spanish speakers because the bridge/help is for AC first priority
Nobody up front notables:
No Saxo - missing 2 key guys, 2 guys top 5, need to stay together
Liquigas - with K and Nibali up there > sticking together
Columbia resting for the Champs
That could be a big group (always depends on who makes it), where you have only Rast, Muravyev, Sparticus, O'Grady, David Millar, maybe someone from Liquigas, those guys keeping it close enough but no more sacrifices beyond that. So the break gets out there and up the climb a bit before the favorites hit it.
So you got guys strung out all over the mountain as the favorites ascend, and one trying to stay away like Virenque did, but this time AC will fly by the end (not Lance) and we'll see if he catches the last guy or just misses.
Between Lance, Frank, Kloden, Wiggo, Vdv, Nibali and even Andy it will just end up being a cage death match soup, again with it stringing out all over, favorites, old break riders maybe still up high, like someone opened the monkey cage at the zoo, guys everywhere, pairing up, blood all over the road, Phil screaming "he needs that wheel", Paul talking about peoples' faces of pain,
it'll be great and mean absolutely nothing in the end, but great bike racing. I can't wait.
Prediction: only carnage.
No! Well not if I were giving outteam orders.
Not sure which of the Contador / Astana / Armstrong threads this should go so have put it in a couple – apologies if this breaks with forum protocol…
Contador is the leader of Astana by virtue of the fact he is the best rider – best climber and best ITT. It is his job to win the race. It's the job of the team to support him to win the race.
Contador is doing his job with bells on. His tactics have consistently been about winning the race. He has been singly focused on this – and frankly that’s the best way to make sure of winning the toughest bike race in the World. You can’t be looking over your shoulder and worrying about everyone else.
The team on the other hand have in my opinion been somewhat more mixed in their support of their team leader. Some of the moves on the road well documented in this thread would leave any team leader asking a few questions about people’s priorities and personal agenda at the dinner table.
While the motives behind road tactics are open to interpretation some of the stuff that’s been on twitter or said to the media is totally out of order in my opinion. If anybody said anything like that on any team I have ever been on they'd be called on it. A team mate should not be questioning the team leader’s choices or commenting on his performance in public. How does any of the comments made make it more likely for Alberto to be in yellow in Paris – they don’t. It’s totally unacceptable and to me it's in a different league than anything that Contador has done on the road.
I accept there are some unique circumstances here – the Lance Factor if you like. I have nothing specifically against Lance – I actually think his achievements rank up there with the best of the best. But my sense of what is appropriate has been stretched to breaking point with the Radio Shack thing. How does anyone while a member of one team fighting for a podium place think its ok to announce your intention to launch a new team in the middle of the race? What about that will focus the team on supporting their leader to be in yellow in Paris? I find it hard to imagine anything more distracting or more designed to challenge loyalties on the team. Never mind you also announce Trek will coming along too – the bike sponsor of your existing team!
I think tomorrow Contador will sit in the wheels on Ventoux. He will only follow Andy S and I expect if he has the opportunity to win the stage he will attack in the last couple of kilometres. I don’t think Armstrong or Wiggins will have the legs to put any distance into anyone – they will be hanging on. There is a good chance that Frank will make up the 40 s he needs to get on the podium and push Lance into 4th.
I would not expect Contador to be doing anything to help Lance – it’s not his job! And it won’t matter on Ventoux – Armstrong will either be able to stay up their or not.
Contador is the cycling equivalent of a genius in my opinion. I hope he finds a team that is more definitive in its support and worthy of his prodigious talent.
Not sure which of the Contador / Astana / Armstrong threads this should go so have put it in a couple – apologies if this breaks with forum protocol…
Contador is the leader of Astana by virtue of the fact he is the best rider – best climber and best ITT. It is his job to win the race. It's the job of the team to support him to win the race.
Contador is doing his job with bells on. His tactics have consistently been about winning the race. He has been singly focused on this – and frankly that’s the best way to make sure of winning the toughest bike race in the World. You can’t be looking over your shoulder and worrying about everyone else.
The team on the other hand have in my opinion been somewhat more mixed in their support of their team leader. Some of the moves on the road well documented in this thread would leave any team leader asking a few questions about people’s priorities and personal agenda at the dinner table.
While the motives behind road tactics are open to interpretation some of the stuff that’s been on twitter or said to the media is totally out of order in my opinion. If anybody said anything like that on any team I have ever been on they'd be called on it. A team mate should not be questioning the team leader’s choices or commenting on his performance in public. How does any of the comments made make it more likely for Alberto to be in yellow in Paris – they don’t. It’s totally unacceptable and to me it's in a different league than anything that Contador has done on the road.
I accept there are some unique circumstances here – the Lance Factor if you like. I have nothing specifically against Lance – I actually think his achievements rank up there with the best of the best. But my sense of what is appropriate has been stretched to breaking point with the Radio Shack thing. How does anyone while a member of one team fighting for a podium place think its ok to announce your intention to launch a new team in the middle of the race? What about that will focus the team on supporting their leader to be in yellow in Paris? I find it hard to imagine anything more distracting or more designed to challenge loyalties on the team. Never mind you also announce Trek will coming along too – the bike sponsor of your existing team!
I think tomorrow Contador will sit in the wheels on Ventoux. He will only follow Andy S and I expect if he has the opportunity to win the stage he will attack in the last couple of kilometres. I don’t think Armstrong or Wiggins will have the legs to put any distance into anyone – they will be hanging on. There is a good chance that Frank will make up the 40 s he needs to get on the podium and push Lance into 4th.
I would not expect Contador to be doing anything to help Lance – it’s not his job! And it won’t matter on Ventoux – Armstrong will either be able to stay up their or not.
Contador is the cycling equivalent of a genius in my opinion. I hope he finds a team that is more definitive in its support and worthy of his prodigious talent.
Well said indeed. but if you believe in the brotherhood of reciprocity that is alleged in the pro peloton you have to wonder if LA and Alberto didn't broker a deal on the slopes of the alps...
Just a question about the Alberto Genius comment; if he is what was he doing patting andy and frankie on the back all day..perhaps he knows that payback is a ***** or a brother and Lance after all did break a few of Alberto's rivals legs in the alps
just a question and I am of the opinion Alberto has every right to attack whenever he wants where ever he wants in any race as do any of the riders regardless of the team game.
Just a question about the Alberto Genius comment; if he is what was he doing patting andy and frankie on the back all day..perhaps he knows that payback is a ***** or a brother and Lance after all did break a few of Alberto's rivals legs in the alps
just a question and I am of the opinion Alberto has every right to attack whenever he wants where ever he wants in any race as do any of the riders regardless of the team game.
Break's Away
Big group out there...
10:01 GMT
The Ventoux has played a huge part in Tour history and legend, and is probably the most feared climb in the race. You can read more about it here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/mighty-ventoux-set-for-tours-final-battle
---------
Situation:
Hayden Roulston (Cervélo Test Team), Juan Manuel Garate and Joost Postuma (Rabobank), Tony Martin (Team High Road), Christophe Riblon (Ag2r la Mondiale), Aleksandr Kuschynski (Liquigas), Anthony Geslin (Française des Jeux), Samuel Dumoulin (Cofidis), Daniele Righi (Lampre), William Bonnet (BBox Bouygues Telecom), Maxime Bouet (Agritubel), Cyril Lemoine and Albert Timmer (Skil-Shimano), Mickael Delage (Silence Lotto), Ruben Perez Moreno (Euskaltel Euskadi) and Jose Ivan Gutierrez (Caisse d’Epargne).
Peloton, at 5’05”.
- No leader's teams (evidently really windy so maybe want to stay together)
- Tony Martin which is a surprise, but really smart, really smart there could take it today (him, Garate and Gutierrez class of group)
- No Carlos or Cadel
- Really getting out there so early 5 Minutes!
This is going to be great
Big group out there...
10:01 GMT
The Ventoux has played a huge part in Tour history and legend, and is probably the most feared climb in the race. You can read more about it here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/mighty-ventoux-set-for-tours-final-battle
---------
Situation:
Hayden Roulston (Cervélo Test Team), Juan Manuel Garate and Joost Postuma (Rabobank), Tony Martin (Team High Road), Christophe Riblon (Ag2r la Mondiale), Aleksandr Kuschynski (Liquigas), Anthony Geslin (Française des Jeux), Samuel Dumoulin (Cofidis), Daniele Righi (Lampre), William Bonnet (BBox Bouygues Telecom), Maxime Bouet (Agritubel), Cyril Lemoine and Albert Timmer (Skil-Shimano), Mickael Delage (Silence Lotto), Ruben Perez Moreno (Euskaltel Euskadi) and Jose Ivan Gutierrez (Caisse d’Epargne).
Peloton, at 5’05”.
- No leader's teams (evidently really windy so maybe want to stay together)
- Tony Martin which is a surprise, but really smart, really smart there could take it today (him, Garate and Gutierrez class of group)
- No Carlos or Cadel
- Really getting out there so early 5 Minutes!
This is going to be great
indurain666 said:I can't believe that one of the most stupid threads I have seen on this forum is now 28 pages long...thanks to assholes like me that like to annoy all these fanboys for a good laugh
You got it all right except you can add hypocrite to the *** tag. You and yours are great entertainment especially when its a known fact that Andy is going to do everything possible to get Frank onto the podium and the haters don't have one page on that. Sadly, tomorrow the entertainment around here comes to an end. It's been a slice haters.
SpeedWay said:
Yea, because then the true fans of cycling will be the only ones left. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!
Thoughtforfood said:
Problem is, TFF, that (some of) the people you consider to be "true fans of cycling" are some of the worst asSholes on this site.
When I was watching versus this morning I was watching the section on Bruyneel and wow "great" a DS he is, anyway at one point he said that sometimes you have to sacrifice 2nd and 3rd or any other standing for the leader to be in first, and that is what he said helped him with Lance. Now If he truly believes that, he shouldn't care about armstrong or kloden he should just think of contador, and make them domestiques, I hate to say this But at least hinault seemed to help greg lemond lance has done nothing to help alberto. Alberto has won the tour himself, don't even mention the TTT cause lance worked hard so he could get in yellow. A couple years ago I was on a team who dominated a domestic race, and my teammate had won this race for the past three years, after I won the prologue I was trying to win the race my team leader worked for me he was second and he helped me when all of our teammates cracked he paced me and gave me the biggest win of my career. That's a true teammate not The old windbag. Contador should ride for himself like he has done this entire tour as he is the team leader.
will cantador help Armstrong on Ventoux
The question has been answered
Contador did help Armstrong on Mont Ventoux.
He held back and gave away any chance of a stage victory.
He responded to a dangerous attack by tthe brothers with Lance in tow.
Although the way Armstrong rode I believe he would have been able to hang on as frank was unable to drop him.
The race was about 3rd place and this took something away from the real racing.
In Armstrong 7 wins it was always about the winner and clearly the strongest did not win today.
I would have loved to have seen Andy and Alberto battle it out to the end, but again the tour seemed to have focus on Lance Armstrong and not the winner what a waste. We seem to believe the Tour De France belongs to Lance Armstrong.
Whether you like Armstrong or not respect is due to his performance today.
I hope these guys will be on different teams next year to see real racing
The question has been answered
Contador did help Armstrong on Mont Ventoux.
He held back and gave away any chance of a stage victory.
He responded to a dangerous attack by tthe brothers with Lance in tow.
Although the way Armstrong rode I believe he would have been able to hang on as frank was unable to drop him.
The race was about 3rd place and this took something away from the real racing.
In Armstrong 7 wins it was always about the winner and clearly the strongest did not win today.
I would have loved to have seen Andy and Alberto battle it out to the end, but again the tour seemed to have focus on Lance Armstrong and not the winner what a waste. We seem to believe the Tour De France belongs to Lance Armstrong.
Whether you like Armstrong or not respect is due to his performance today.
I hope these guys will be on different teams next year to see real racing
patriot said:
The sad thing is that Armstrong hasn't publicly acknowledged Alberto's effort (or restraint) today. He (Contador) could have flown the coop for the stage win and left Armstrong behind to be isolated with the Schlecks, but didn't. Next year will be a different story. There won't be anyone around to help Lance next year and certainly no one to help him deal with the likes of Contador.
Update:
Lance did have something decent to say after all:
franciep10 said:
I noticed the same comment....what hypocrisy. Under Lance's reign, once he got the YJ, everyone on the team became his slave for the rest of the Tour. This year AC's had to listen constantly to "what it's gonna take for Lance to win". He should take a lot of pride that he won on his own and let his legs do his talking. I think he's a class act.
richwagmn said:
Or fifth for todays stage?
The sponsors certainly do. Pro bike racing (like most pro sports) is about money - the more publicity for the sponsors the longer they will be there - no results and sponsors disapear (along with the teams).
Having two riders in the top three on CG in Paris enhances a teams efforts to obtain sponsors for the following year.
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