Will Contador help Armstrong on Ventoux?

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Ninety5rpm said:
Well, of course. So what? The dude is in 3rd place and well ahead of the top 5 from last year.

The only nipples getting hard are yours at the joy of seeing a champion that you happen to despise possibly get as "low" as 3rd instead of 1st. Do you have any clue about how pathetic that is?

He only won by 6 minutes once, or maybe twice, by the way. Most of the other 4 or 5 wins were much closer.
Not true:

1999 (Won by 7'37"), 2000 (6'02"), 2001 (6'44), 2002 (7'17), 2003 (1'01"), 2004 (6'19") and 2005 (4'40")
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Smera1 said:
This is the exact quote that Armostrong said "The [2008] Tour was a bit of a joke. I've got nothing against [champion Carlos] Sastre or Christian Vande Velde. Christian's a nice guy, but finishing fifth in the Tour de France? Come on!"

And don't you think called the tour "a joke" and exclamating "come on" is not being disrespectful ??? He is not only diminishing the event but also the athletes and this is very disrespectful in my book.
Again, I don't know how he makes the VALID point he was making -- validated even more by the standings of the top 5 2008 guys in the 2009 Tour -- without sounding a bit disrespectful.

But "very disrespectful"? No way.

I note all you guys exaggerate what he said. He did not call the tour "a joke". He called it a "bit of a joke". If he wanted to call it a joke he would have said, "The [2008] Tour was a joke". He did not say that, and you seem to fail to recognize the huge difference, apparently because failing to recognize the difference allows you to support your version of the terrible/horrible man you haters believe him to be.

As to the significance of "Come on!" with respect to how much disrespect it conveyed, I honestly see none.

Again, it was a valid point that probably could not be made without offending someone with very thin skin. Oh well.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Publicus said:
Not true:

1999 (Won by 7'37"), 2000 (6'02"), 2001 (6'44), 2002 (7'17), 2003 (1'01"), 2004 (6'19") and 2005 (4'40")
Wow, more domination than I remembered. Thanks!
 
Jul 6, 2009
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Ninety5rpm said:
Again, I don't know how he makes the VALID point he was making -- validated even more by the standings of the top 5 2008 guys in the 2009 Tour -- without sounding a bit disrespectful.

But "very disrespectful"? No way.

I note all you guys exaggerate what he said. He did not call the tour "a joke". He called it a "bit of a joke". If he wanted to call it a joke he would have said, "The [2008] Tour was a joke". He did not say that, and you seem to fail to recognize the huge difference, apparently because failing to recognize the difference allows you to support your version of the terrible/horrible man you haters believe him to be.

As to the significance of "Come on!" with respect to how much disrespect it conveyed, I honestly see none.

Again, it was a valid point that probably could not be made without offending someone with very thin skin. Oh well.
No, it was very disrespectful, much more so than he intended it to be, which is why he apologized, specifically to Carlos, and has treated Carlos with a lot of deferrence in the press during the Tour, even though he was 100% correct in his assertion.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Jayarbie said:
No, it was very disrespectful, much more so than he intended it to be, which is why he apologized, specifically to Carlos, and has treated Carlos with a lot of deferrence in the press during the Tour, even though he was 100% correct in his assertion.
Well, at least we agree he was 100% correct in his assertion. I suppose you might argue it was as disrespectful as pointing out that Stevie Wonder is blind, except I would argue that Armstrong's point was not nearly as obvious. Many people here, for example, have challenged it. And it is to that argument, that he sensed coming, that he added, "Come on!".

Yet another new article about that comment, by the way:

www.velonews.com/article/95825
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Publicus said:
Yep. He's likely to lose by over 6 minutes this year when it is all said and done. Which in some ways is fitting.
Fitting? It's amazing that he can race competitively at all (considering his age and time off), much less that he can compete at the grand tour level, make it through the Tour, and quite probably get on the podium.

Winning again would have been only whipped cream, but that's all the haters can get (him not winning), so they'll try to make the most of it, even pointing out how "fitting" it would be for him to "lose" by 6 minutes. Pathetic.
 
May 13, 2009
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Saw the stage today and was baffled by Phil's comment in the end: "Will AC help LA tomorrow". Don't remember whether he meant stage win or podium place. Anyway, I was thinking WTF?

Now P&P have sold out long ago, but I was still surprised to see the new depths into which they're plunging. And of course the forum doesn't disappoint either. Who is this Willsuckcox guy who's twittering that brilliant idea? And 95rpm, I'd love to have you as DS ... on my opponents' team. You're seriously suggesting Bertie should let the Schlecks go and slowly haul a tired 38-year-old a$$ up the slopes? Beside dishonoring the yellow jersey, he would make a joke out of the TdF. A real joke. Not one imagined by a delusional old dude who can't keep his trap shut in front of a microphone.

Ok. Let's look at the facts for a moment:
1) LA has yet to work a single time for Bertie's overall victory
2) LA's out-of-race behavior (twittering, interview) didn't promote team cohesion and certainly didn't help Bertie either
3) While still riding the TdF for Astana (and supposedly helping Bertie) he announced the new team he will be joining. See point 2.
4) LA has made use of Astana domestiques for his own goal. He was dragged up the Verbier by Kloden. If Kloden didn't have to waste energy there, maybe he could have followed Bertie's attack up the Colombiere and put time into both Schleck brothers to get first and second place on the podium.
5) LA made a rookie mistake on the lower slopes of that climb when he missed Frank's attack and had to let him go, to support Andy, endangering Bertie's overall victory.

You have to have a pretty twisted mind to even suggest Bertie should help LA in any way. Also, why should LA need help? Didn't he say just yesterday that he needed only 1" on Frank to secure the podium? And didn't he say he had unfinished business on the Ventoux? I guess, like a fatcat CEO, he expects to be chauffeured up the hill to his business meeting ... with harsh reality, I suspect.

Still nice to see some of you shills hanging around until the bitter end for my amusement. I haven't seen many of you since the Verbier, and I expect most of the remaining saddle sniffers to make their exodus this weekend.
 
Ninety5rpm said:
Fitting? It's amazing that he can race competitively at all (considering his age and time off), much less that he can compete at the grand tour level, make it through the Tour, and quite probably get on the podium.

Winning again would have been only whipped cream, but that's all the haters can get (him not winning), so they'll try to make the most of it, even pointing out how "fitting" it would be for him to "lose" by 6 minutes. Pathetic.
Apparently got your panties in a bit of a twist with that one. I say fitting because he use to win by an average of 6 minutes, so it is fitting (or poetic justice if you will) that he loses by a similar margin. No hate involved . . . just an observation.

Perhaps if Contador is wise, he'll do what he can to limit the gaps between himself and Lance. Because what's good for Lance has to be good for Contador right?
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
5) LA made a rookie mistake on the lower slopes of that climb when he missed Frank's attack and had to let him go, to support Andy, endangering Bertie's overall victory.
I agree. LA sure didn't mind dragging the Garmin duo up the hill when he latched onto Frank's first attack on the lower slope. But he was either asleep or unable to follow Frank's second attack, which was very dangerous as it put Saxo on equal terms with Astana in the lead group. Had he attacked, he might have seen that Wiggo could not keep up, and he could have kept going.

I'm no LA hater, tons of respect for his abilities. Just not impressed with the me first attitude when it's obvious who has earned the team's support.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
Saw the stage today and was baffled by Phil's comment in the end: "Will AC help LA tomorrow". Don't remember whether he meant stage win or podium place. Anyway, I was thinking WTF?

Now P&P have sold out long ago, but I was still surprised to see the new depths into which they're plunging. And of course the forum doesn't disappoint either. Who is this Willsuckcox guy who's twittering that brilliant idea? And 95rpm, I'd love to have you as DS ... on my opponents' team. You're seriously suggesting Bertie should let the Schlecks go and slowly haul a tired 38-year-old a$$ up the slopes? Beside dishonoring the yellow jersey, he would make a joke out of the TdF. A real joke. Not one imagined by a delusional old dude who can't keep his trap shut in front of a microphone.

Ok. Let's look at the facts for a moment:
1) LA has yet to work a single time for Bertie's overall victory
2) LA's out-of-race behavior (twittering, interview) didn't promote team cohesion and certainly didn't help Bertie either
3) While still riding the TdF for Astana (and supposedly helping Bertie) he announced the new team he will be joining. See point 2.
4) LA has made use of Astana domestiques for his own goal. He was dragged up the Verbier by Kloden. If Kloden didn't have to waste energy there, maybe he could have followed Bertie's attack up the Colombiere and put time into both Schleck brothers to get first and second place on the podium.
5) LA made a rookie mistake on the lower slopes of that climb when he missed Frank's attack and had to let him go, to support Andy, endangering Bertie's overall victory.

You have to have a pretty twisted mind to even suggest Bertie should help LA in any way. Also, why should LA need help? Didn't he say just yesterday that he needed only 1" on Frank to secure the podium? And didn't he say he had unfinished business on the Ventoux? I guess, like a fatcat CEO, he expects to be chauffeured up the hill to his business meeting ... with harsh reality, I suspect.

Still nice to see some of you shills hanging around until the bitter end for my amusement. I haven't seen many of you since the Verbier, and I expect most of the remaining saddle sniffers to make their exodus this weekend.
Your facts are opinion.

The saddle sniffers may be gone after this weekend and you will have helped them decide to go with your head up **** attitude.
 
pedaling squares said:
I agree. LA sure didn't mind dragging the Garmin duo up the hill when he latched onto Frank's first attack on the lower slope. But he was either asleep or unable to follow Frank's second attack, which was very dangerous as it put Saxo on equal terms with Astana in the lead group. Had he attacked, he might have seen that Wiggo could not keep up, and he could have kept going.

I'm no LA hater, tons of respect for his abilities. Just not impressed with the me first attitude when it's obvious who has earned the team's support.
If you see the video again, he's barely turning his pedals and looking down at the ground, with Wiggins basically running into the back of him. Frank sees it and drops the hammer. Frankly, I think this was the more critical of the two mistakes made on the road by the Astana team.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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psychlist said:
Your facts are opinion.

The saddle sniffers may be gone after this weekend and you will have helped them decide to go with your head up **** attitude.
In that case I would like to thank Cobblestones for making these forums a better place! :D
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Publicus said:
If you see the video again, he's barely turning his pedals and looking down at the ground, with Wiggins basically running into the back of him. Frank sees it and drops the hammer. Frankly, I think this was the more critical of the two mistakes made on the road by the Astana team.
Bingo! Your are a winnah. Of course no one in the press pointed that out 'cause LA doesn't make mistakes. Hey LA, watch the riders around you. Not your front wheel.

Good presence of mind by Schleck the Elder though. The Schlecks are real class acts in my mind. Happy to see the Schlecklet improve in the TT too!
 
Jul 21, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
Saw the stage today and was baffled by Phil's comment in the end: "Will AC help LA tomorrow". Don't remember whether he meant stage win or podium place. Anyway, I was thinking WTF?

Now P&P have sold out long ago, but I was still surprised to see the new depths into which they're plunging. And of course the forum doesn't disappoint either. Who is this Willsuckcox guy who's twittering that brilliant idea? And 95rpm, I'd love to have you as DS ... on my opponents' team. You're seriously suggesting Bertie should let the Schlecks go and slowly haul a tired 38-year-old a$$ up the slopes? Beside dishonoring the yellow jersey, he would make a joke out of the TdF. A real joke. Not one imagined by a delusional old dude who can't keep his trap shut in front of a microphone.

Ok. Let's look at the facts for a moment:
1) LA has yet to work a single time for Bertie's overall victory
2) LA's out-of-race behavior (twittering, interview) didn't promote team cohesion and certainly didn't help Bertie either
3) While still riding the TdF for Astana (and supposedly helping Bertie) he announced the new team he will be joining. See point 2.
4) LA has made use of Astana domestiques for his own goal. He was dragged up the Verbier by Kloden. If Kloden didn't have to waste energy there, maybe he could have followed Bertie's attack up the Colombiere and put time into both Schleck brothers to get first and second place on the podium.
5) LA made a rookie mistake on the lower slopes of that climb when he missed Frank's attack and had to let him go, to support Andy, endangering Bertie's overall victory.

You have to have a pretty twisted mind to even suggest Bertie should help LA in any way. Also, why should LA need help? Didn't he say just yesterday that he needed only 1" on Frank to secure the podium? And didn't he say he had unfinished business on the Ventoux? I guess, like a fatcat CEO, he expects to be chauffeured up the hill to his business meeting ... with harsh reality, I suspect.

Still nice to see some of you shills hanging around until the bitter end for my amusement. I haven't seen many of you since the Verbier, and I expect most of the remaining saddle sniffers to make their exodus this weekend.

psychlist said:
Your facts are opinion.
No they are not.

1- Name ONE instance in where Lance was actively working for AC (no for himself, like in TTT)

2- The twittering is a fact. He critisizing team leader in public is a destructive behaviour. That is a fact.

3- The announcement is a fact

4- He used Kloden at Verbier. That is a fact.

5- Lance got caught with his pants down, slowing down, with no momentum looking up the road when Frank attacked. That is a tactical mistake. Again, for anybody that knows anything about cycling, that is a fact.
 
This is ridiculous. This would have never been an issue during Lance's winning days. How many times did Lance win and extend and already big lead to win a mountain stage? Heras could probably have finished on the podium if the team wanted to put two there, but it was all about Lance as it should have been. This year should be all about AC. Lance even said himself "I remember the years when I was the leader of my team and if someone even remotely considered their own individual interests, we would have sent him home the next day. I don't want to be that guy."

Contador shouldn't have to help out Lance or Kloden. The yellow jersey is supposed to go for a win on the Ventoux if he has the opportunity. That's what the MJ does.

Andy and Frank will attack a few times and eventually get rid of LA. AC will (and should) go with them. He will attack them and win the stage.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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fulcrum said:
No they are not.

1- Name ONE instance in where Lance was actively working for AC (no for himself, like in TTT)

2- The twittering is a fact. He critisizing team leader in public is a destructive behaviour. That is a fact.

3- The announcement is a fact

4- He used Kloden at Verbier. That is a fact.

5- Lance got caught with his pants down, slowing down, with no momentum looking up the road when Frank attacked. That is a tactical mistake. Again, for anybody that knows anything about cycling, that is a fact.
+1. All facts.

On #2, what would LA have done to a teammate talking to the press much less one questioning his tactics. LA, you're still a douche.

Here's what LA said about his teammates talking to the press during the tour:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/5899769/Tour-de-France-Lance-Armstrong-resigned-to-drugs-suspicion-despite-clean-record.html
 
Jul 6, 2009
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fulcrum said:
No they are not.

1- Name ONE instance in where Lance was actively working for AC (no for himself, like in TTT)

2- The twittering is a fact. He critisizing team leader in public is a destructive behaviour. That is a fact.

3- The announcement is a fact

4- He used Kloden at Verbier. That is a fact.

5- Lance got caught with his pants down, slowing down, with no momentum looking up the road when Frank attacked. That is a tactical mistake. Again, for anybody that knows anything about cycling, that is a fact.
4- He didn't use Kloden at Verbier. After Contador attacked, everyone in the front group just kind of looked at each other like "we've been following Astana for the whole race, NOW what are we supposed to do?!?". Andy Schleck was the ONLY one who realized that following the teammates of the guy who just attacked probably was not the best strategy in the world and he alone took off after Contador. The rest just hopped right back on the wheel of Kloden and Armstrong. So what were they supposed to do? They just soft pedalled the tempo and let Contador fly away. Notice that while they were riding tempo after Contador's attack, LOTS of other guys latched back on? They were not riding a fast tempo at all.

5- I agree with you here. This is a tactical mistake that hasn't gotten much press at all. Armstrong was so busy dicking around with Wiggins riding all over the road and even braking (on a climb!) at one point to make Wiggins come through and lead the chase that Schleck just decided to take off. Schleck did NOT want to drag EITHER Armstrong or Wiggins back to Andy, but if the two of them aren't even going to ride, then why not fly the coop? That was a horrible tactical error that ended up being the winning move in the stage (it got Frank to the front group from which he won the stage...). I think Armstrong wanted Wiggins to chase aggressively to bring him back because there was no way that he could chase and drag Wiggins and Schleck back without alienating his whole team and looking like an a-hole.

In the end, Armstrong has been a faithful teammate on the road, although less so on Twitter. It not disputed that Armstrong has a huge ego and doesn't take losing easily, but that's not different that most other elite athletes.
 
May 13, 2009
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Jayarbie said:
4- He didn't use Kloden at Verbier. After Contador attacked, everyone in the front group just kind of looked at each other like "we've been following Astana for the whole race, NOW what are we supposed to do?!?". Andy Schleck was the ONLY one who realized that following the teammates of the guy who just attacked probably was not the best strategy in the world and he alone took off after Contador. The rest just hopped right back on the wheel of Kloden and Armstrong. So what were they supposed to do? They just soft pedalled the tempo and let Contador fly away. Notice that while they were riding tempo after Contador's attack, LOTS of other guys latched back on? They were not riding a fast tempo at all.
When you look at the tape, almost everybody in the peloton (after Bertie's attack) eventually attacked and managed to ride past Kloden and Armstrong. Even Cadel Evans. We're talking here about the Schlecks, Nibali, Wiggins, Sastre. In the very end, Armstrong couldn't even hold on to Kloden's wheel. Are you suggesting that Kloden couldn't go with any of the subsequent attacks? Not even with Evans who was admittedly weak? Kloden's form prior and post Verbier doesn't support this point of view. I think team order was to tow LA up no matter the cost for Kloden's GC position. Did Kloden ever comment on this stage? We might get confirmation on that by himself.
 
Jul 21, 2009
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Jayarbie said:
4- He didn't use Kloden at Verbier. After Contador attacked, everyone in the front group just kind of looked at each other like "we've been following Astana for the whole race, NOW what are we supposed to do?!?". Andy Schleck was the ONLY one who realized that following the teammates of the guy who just attacked probably was not the best strategy in the world and he alone took off after Contador. The rest just hopped right back on the wheel of Kloden and Armstrong. So what were they supposed to do? They just soft pedalled the tempo and let Contador fly away. Notice that while they were riding tempo after Contador's attack, LOTS of other guys latched back on? They were not riding a fast tempo at all.

5- I agree with you here. This is a tactical mistake that hasn't gotten much press at all. Armstrong was so busy dicking around with Wiggins riding all over the road and even braking (on a climb!) at one point to make Wiggins come through and lead the chase that Schleck just decided to take off. Schleck did NOT want to drag EITHER Armstrong or Wiggins back to Andy, but if the two of them aren't even going to ride, then why not fly the coop? That was a horrible tactical error that ended up being the winning move in the stage (it got Frank to the front group from which he won the stage...). I think Armstrong wanted Wiggins to chase aggressively to bring him back because there was no way that he could chase and drag Wiggins and Schleck back without alienating his whole team and looking like an a-hole.

In the end, Armstrong has been a faithful teammate on the road, although less so on Twitter. It not disputed that Armstrong has a huge ego and doesn't take losing easily, but that's not different that most other elite athletes.
4- I suggest you turn your TV's dial from the imaginary channel to the actual race. Here is the stage at Verbier:

1 Alberto Contador ESP AST 05:03:58
2 Andy Schleck LUX SAX a 00:00:43
3 Vincenzo Nibali ITA LIQ a 00:01:03
4 Frank Schleck LUX SAX a 00:01:06
5 Bradley Wiggins GBR GRM m.t.
6 Carlos Sastre ESP CTT m.t.
7 Cadel Evans AUS SIL a 00:01:26
8 Andréas Klöden GER AST a 00:01:29
9 Lance Armstrong USA AST a 00:01:35
10 Kim Kirchen LUX THR a 00:01:55
11 Roman Kreuziger CZE LIQ a 00:02:06
12 Tony Martin GER THR a 00:02:13

As you can see, not a lot of people were latching at Kloden and Lance. Kloden waited for Lance and then Kloden rode Lance uphill, doing the classic work of a domestique for a guy that showed he was not the strongest on the road. So Lance used Kloden. Again... a fact.

5- Lance hasn't been a faithfull teammate. Faithfull teammates actively work for the team leaders. The only thing Lance has done is respect cycling rules and don't attack Contador (except the etchelon stage, maybe). Not that he could attack AC anyway, so kind of a moot point. If he were a faithfull teammate, he would sacrifice himself by setting tempo uphill and making Schleck brother attacks less likely. But Lance is much more worried about his podium finish. The one he most likely won't get after Ventoux.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Teammate

fulcrum said:
No they are not.

1- Name ONE instance in where Lance was actively working for AC (no for himself, like in TTT)

2- The twittering is a fact. He critisizing team leader in public is a destructive behaviour. That is a fact.

3- The announcement is a fact

4- He used Kloden at Verbier. That is a fact.

5- Lance got caught with his pants down, slowing down, with no momentum looking up the road when Frank attacked. That is a tactical mistake. Again, for anybody that knows anything about cycling, that is a fact.

Jayarbie said:
4- He didn't use Kloden at Verbier. After Contador attacked, everyone in the front group just kind of looked at each other like "we've been following Astana for the whole race, NOW what are we supposed to do?!?". Andy Schleck was the ONLY one who realized that following the teammates of the guy who just attacked probably was not the best strategy in the world and he alone took off after Contador. The rest just hopped right back on the wheel of Kloden and Armstrong. So what were they supposed to do? They just soft pedalled the tempo and let Contador fly away. Notice that while they were riding tempo after Contador's attack, LOTS of other guys latched back on? They were not riding a fast tempo at all.

5- I agree with you here. This is a tactical mistake that hasn't gotten much press at all. Armstrong was so busy dicking around with Wiggins riding all over the road and even braking (on a climb!) at one point to make Wiggins come through and lead the chase that Schleck just decided to take off. Schleck did NOT want to drag EITHER Armstrong or Wiggins back to Andy, but if the two of them aren't even going to ride, then why not fly the coop? That was a horrible tactical error that ended up being the winning move in the stage (it got Frank to the front group from which he won the stage...). I think Armstrong wanted Wiggins to chase aggressively to bring him back because there was no way that he could chase and drag Wiggins and Schleck back without alienating his whole team and looking like an a-hole.

In the end, Armstrong has been a faithful teammate on the road, although less so on Twitter. It not disputed that Armstrong has a huge ego and doesn't take losing easily, but that's not different that most other elite athletes.
Agree with Jay on 4 and 5.
Re 1 - More than once when AC was up the road, Lance sat on and waited until there was no danger of his bringing a GC contender with him before he made a move (including Andorra).
2 - Agree with Fulcrum on the twittering - Lance has never been very good about putting a sock in his mouth and has often spoken up when silence would have been better (like the time he said he didn't think Jan really waited for him) .. Although some of Lance's comments have often been quoted out of context in the press (and blogs), since they're always trying to stir up as much as possible to get a juicy story. Same true of AC - the press makes the most of anything they can get if it makes a grabby headline.
3 - Sure the announcement is a fact, but I don't see that as something aimed at AC or anyone else.

And while I do think that Lance coming back to Astana did not help with building a healthy team dynamic on Astana, I do think Lance has made an effort to be a good teammate as things developed during the race. I think some of ACs recent comments (help Lance and Klodi on Ventoux) are an indication that he is trying to mend fences, and maybe recognizes that some of his recent moves haven't been helpful.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
fulcrum said:
No they are not.

1- Name ONE instance in where Lance was actively working for AC (no for himself, like in TTT)

2- The twittering is a fact. He critisizing team leader in public is a destructive behaviour. That is a fact.

3- The announcement is a fact

4- He used Kloden at Verbier. That is a fact.

5- Lance got caught with his pants down, slowing down, with no momentum looking up the road when Frank attacked. That is a tactical mistake. Again, for anybody that knows anything about cycling, that is a fact.
Crystal clear and precise.

+1
 
Apr 21, 2009
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What aritcle???

richwagmn said:
+1. All facts.

On #2, what would LA have done to a teammate talking to the press much less one questioning his tactics. LA, you're still a douche.

Here's what LA said about his teammates talking to the press during the tour:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/5899769/Tour-de-France-Lance-Armstrong-resigned-to-drugs-suspicion-despite-clean-record.html
Did you read a different article than me (I followed your link...)? The only quote about teammates I saw there was:

"Armstrong on Contador:
“[On the road to Verbier he] was faster than I ever was. That performance would have ridden away from me on Alpe d’Huez 2001. He’s very hard to beat.” ".

This is hardly evidence of what a jerk Lance is...
 

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