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Will Contador struggle without Bruyneel

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carl spackler said:
Its been touched on a little, but I guess the question I was really getting at, was to what extent is the lack of the Bruyneel doping program/uci connections gonna hurt Contador?

I'm wondering, explicitly, what advantages will he no longer have this year? methodolgy, etc. etc.

That said this has still been an interesting discussion thusfar.

It won't have any effect because Contador was on his own seperate Spanish based programme that his brothers were taking care of.
 
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carl spackler said:
Just wondering if anyone thinks Contador will have significant trouble next year replicating the success he has had with Brunyeel. If you know what I mean.

You think for a single second Contador would go touching as much as a powerbar given to him by Brunyeel in last year's tour? If I were that guy I would have been importing my own water. Sharing things besides that? No way.

I simply don't believe he was on the 'Brunyeel Program' by the time the tour rolled around. I have to think that's why they found 7 discrete DNA samples and not 8. Once Armstrong announced he was coming back I think all trust was gone on Contador's part. Rightfully so, in my opinion.
 
131313 said:
You think for a single second Contador would go touching as much as a powerbar given to him by Brunyeel in last year's tour? If I were that guy I would have been importing my own water. Sharing things besides that? No way.
I simply don't believe he was on the 'Brunyeel Program' by the time the tour rolled around. I have to think that's why they found 7 discrete DNA samples and not 8. Once Armstrong announced he was coming back I think all trust was gone on Contador's part. Rightfully so, in my opinion.

While I agree with the second paragraph, I'm not so sure about the first.

I think this is the source of all the bad feeling and venom. Armstrong and Bruyneel caught between a rock and a hard place.

First off, they tried to get their hands on the Astana licence, before the start of the Tour. If they had, Berto would have been on the beach.
They would have loved to have spiked Contador out of the race and could easily have done so. No doubt, they discussed the subject, in detail.
However, they just couldn't afford to ramifications of being attached to a doping scandal, that implicated Team Lance, which would have probably exposed them as the prime suspects.
With AC on his own programme, the options left would suggest he'd been got at. The press would have had a field day and Bruyneel's 100% facade, gone forever.
That still left them behind Andy Schleck.

They compromised and went for mechanical and technical sabotage.
 
Replicating this you mean?

carl spackler said:
Just wondering if anyone thinks Contador will have significant trouble next year replicating the success he has had with Brunyeel. If you know what I mean.

Replicating this you mean? Yes, they'll have lots of problems. One Mr. Armstrong will be cuddling Bruyneel in 2010. Cuddle Strong.

armstrongbruyneellove.png
 
The OP asks an excellent question!

Contra did not 'learn' that much from Johan ... remember what teams he rode with before Disco. However, Johan was not the only part of management with Astana. I think Contra had a good working relationship with Alain Gallopin, for example.

The 'new' Astana will no doubt be more united behind Contra, but that does not necessarily mean better for him ... sometimes people do better with competition in their team and fall apart when it's all for one. I know nothing about him personally, so in many respects, it'll be wait and see and I look forward to how the races unfold. There is no doubt he is mentally strong, exceptionally talented, and on a good program. But ... for some reason I have a gut feeling he will not win the 2010 TdF. Will he have a bad day? Will he get popped before the race? Will he be tactically beaten? Only time will tell ...
 
hfer07 said:
just a remainder of how good Alberto Contador was before JB/Discovery/Astana/LA ever crossed paths..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_nnv3Etzfg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AFnrv4AaYg&feature=related
whom is going to struggle without whom?

Thanks for posting this. I had never seen him ride pre-Discovery/Bruyneel. To be honest, I'm not sure how much Bruyneel taught him--you can see all of the skills he has today. He's DEFINITELY stronger now. I don't know if that's Bruyneel, natural maturation or both. Really looking forward to see where this year takes us from a racing standpoint.
 
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Bruyneel can such teach how to dope but Contador had a well-known teacher with Bruno Saiz in his frst pro-days.
The only thing that could miss Contador is Bruyneel's protectionto cover his *** with UCI helps from a "bad" testing result
 
Psalmon said:
You'd think savvy business guys (who knew Lance didn't have it) would have been at the very least cordial, keeping the door open down the road. Nothing like ego getting in the way of rationality. A strategic mistake like that deserves at least six more straight for AC.

In one post Tour interview, Bruyneel, after criticizing Contador for his going against the team's strategy during the tour, said that inspite of all of that he wouldn't rule out working with Contador in the future. I unfortunately can't remember where I read the interview. In cycling I've found that wounds heal and what happened in the past is just that, the past. Look at Simoni considering going back to riding with Cunego and Lampre. Horner wasn't always seen as pro-Armstrong, now he's almost Leipheimer-like in his giddiness of riding with him.

I agree though, considering a huge, huge percentage of success for Astana and Bruyneel in the past 3 years rests squarely on the frail shoulders of Contador, one would have thought that they would find it easy to show him a bit more respect. Strange that the public criticisms of Contador by Bruyneel and Armstrong didn't begin until Armstrong joined the team. That is where the disrespect began.
 

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Doping = FAILURE

hfer07 said:
just a remainder of how good Alberto Contador was before JB/Discovery/Astana/LA ever crossed paths..........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_nnv3Etzfg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AFnrv4AaYg&feature=related
whom is going to struggle without whom?

A month after that Tour of Romandie, Alberto's mentor and coach Saiz was caught with bags of cash at the notorious Fuentes Blood Doping Compound and Operation Puerto unfolded. Many riders in that lead group, along with most of Alberto's Liberty-Wurth team mates were busted or implicated.

If Alberto was clean, it surely shows Natural Talent wins out over doping, and those YouTube vids are proof that Doping=Failure. Alberto crushed the dopers.

If Alberto DID dope, it is a shame because he has the natural talent to win without doping. He will live his life knowing that he is a cheat, and many millions in the bank will not make him a success. Doping=Failure again.

Do you think Alberto was clean with Saiz?
Do you think Alberto was clean with Bruyneel?
Do you think Alberto will be clean the new Astana?

Will Alberto struggle without Bruyneel? We will see.
 
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Bruyneel had virtually nothing to do with Contador's success at Astana - this was entirely due to Alain Gallopin and, to a lesser extent, Sean Yates - Bruyneel was never hands on for AC's GT wins.

Polish, the same can be said of Armstrong and his association with Ferrari, a man charged with and found guilty of sporting fraud by doping athletes.
 

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bianchigirl said:
Polish, the same can be said of Armstrong and his association with Ferrari, a man charged with and found guilty of sporting fraud by doping athletes.

What do you mean it "can be said" of Armstrong??

It IS and has been said....about a billion times LOL.

Unfartunately, Alberto will probably be reminded of Puerto just as many times over his career as Lance gets reminded of Ferrari. Oh well.

BTW, Alberto dropping the old dopers in the 2006 Tour of Romandie reminds me of young Lance dropping the old dopers in the final kms of the 1993 Worlds.

Extreme Natural Talent trumps dopers anyday anyyear anydecade anycentury.
 
bianchigirl said:
Bruyneel had virtually nothing to do with Contador's success at Astana - this was entirely due to Alain Gallopin and, to a lesser extent, Sean Yates - Bruyneel was never hands on for AC's GT wins.

Polish, the same can be said of Armstrong and his association with Ferrari, a man charged with and found guilty of sporting fraud by doping athletes.

Bianchigirl: nothing against you but Please consider deeply this before you reply to Polish:

do-not-feed-the-trolls.jpg
 

Polish

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Moose McKnuckles said:
Again, that's not the point.
The point is that natural talent plus doping > natural talent alone.
Nonetheless, what you posted above is debatable at best.

I agree with you that "natural talent plus doping > natural talent alone."

strong=natural talent alone
stronger=natural talent plus doping
strongest=extreme natural talent alone
Hors Categorie STRONG=extreme natural talent plus doping

Eddy, Fausto, Anquetil, Lance and others - Hors
Alberto, LeMond, Cadel and very few others...extreme natural talent alone..really the best.
 
Polish said:
I agree with you that "natural talent plus doping > natural talent alone."

strong=natural talent alone
stronger=natural talent plus doping
strongest=extreme natural talent alone
Hors Categorie STRONG=extreme natural talent plus doping

Eddy, Fausto, Anquetil, Lance and others - Hors
Alberto, LeMond, Cadel and very few others...extreme natural talent alone..really the best.

Well, Alberto beat Lance, so that would seem to refute your theory, since that would put "extreme natural talent" above "Hors".

Come on. We all know the contenders in the Tour are all doping to some extent or another. Let's drop the "talent alone" BS.
 
Polish said:
I agree with you that "natural talent plus doping > natural talent alone."

strong=natural talent alone
stronger=natural talent plus doping
strongest=extreme natural talent alone
Hors Categorie STRONG=extreme natural talent plus doping

Eddy, Fausto, Anquetil, Lance and others - Hors
Alberto, LeMond and others...extreme natural talent alone..really the best.

For what it's worth I don't consider you a troll, extremely annoying sometimes, but not a troll. Although you do troll on occasion, as do many of us.
But anyway, to the point. I believe that your list was probably true before the EPO era, now however I'm afraid your stronger and strongest need to be interchanged. The jury is still out on whether Alberto belongs with LeMond or the others, and also the doping that was availible to Eddy, Fausto and Anquetil was not as much of a deal breaker as what we have today.
 

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Moose McKnuckles said:
Well, Alberto beat Lance, so that would seem to refute your theory, since that would put "extreme natural talent" above "Hors"


Lance is no longer an "extreme" natural talent...too old.

He is a "natural talent plus doping" - consistent with getting beat by Alberto.
 

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Hugh Januss said:
however I'm afraid your stronger and strongest need to be interchanged..

How about if I define "Extreme Natural Talent" as talent that is strong enough to beat the current crop of dopers?

C'mon, its possible....Alberto....Andy....c'mon...