World Politics

[ravens]

Originally Posted by Hugh Januss
Obama is a Socialist,

correct
You are on crack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Januss
if you don't tax the wealthy they will invest all that extra money in improving the entire country and we will all live happily ever after.

If you don't tax them anything? Sophistry. If you tax them too progressively you do slow economic growth. And that is what you do.

Every rich person in this country got that way because of the society that is in place around them and to say they don't owe back to it is just plain wrong. We are far from overburdening the wealtiest in this country with taxes.

ehhh... whatever.... have a nice weekend

The coffee is still on me, but it's strictly decaf for you.

Later on.

 

[rhubroma]

Geez Rhub, you having a bad day? That's a pretty cynical view.

Couple of things.

You state those that didn't participate in the upside 'when things were good get to clean up the mess when the party's over' is just not true. Assuming our economy grows it's way out of our current debt situation it will largely be income taxes that pay down the debt. It's well known who pays income taxes and it's not those who didn't participate when times were good.

Socialism does not have a good track record and only exists as utopia in your mind. Where has this system ever worked and why does this system fail every time it's tried?

I thought (at times) I was a man without a Country, but you are in far worse shape than me.

I agree with your take on our 'elected leaders.' Pitiful stewardship of this great republic, but we certainly disagree on direction. Your broad condemnation of conservativism is over the top. You sound like a jilted lover. Did you have a business that failed?

You write extremely well and I enjoy your posts. It's all 'inside the lecture hall' stuff and it's been a while since I've been in that setting.

Simply because a posed a more or less frontal attack on the nature of American capitalism and, at the same time (since we can't separate the one from the other), made a rather ruthlessly unflattering portrait of the state of US conservatives today, does not in any way detract from its veracity.

As to the failure of socialism: you are fabricating a rather nonsensical statement, given that real socialism has never been practiced: either because deformed by fanatical nationalism or tempered (when not outright mutilated) by capitalist economic practice into that type of pseudosocialism I mentioned before. Yet if we go to a nation like Denmark, where at least a modicum of socialist culture still survives, we will find that the Danes live in among the most civilized and economically satisfactory places on earth.

By contrast if we look at the state of America today, where a spirit of savage capitalism reigns supreme, we will find just the opposite: namely that, and all the more appaling when we consider the nation's generated wealth, the US people are living ever harder times with only the prospect of insurmountable dept beckoning at the wings. A national dept which does not even contribute to their better living standards, but is the product of a fiscal policy that spends on the monetary demands of the insatiable appetites of the financial, industrial and military capitalist machines. Interests which dictate the political agenda and are by nature removed from the daily struggles of the common middle American, though, however, are not up for discussion after the votes are made.

 

[ravens]

Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power

From today's NYT.

In a year he will refer to his current crappy approval rating as ' the good ol' days '

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/us/politics/13obama.html

Klinton looked at this option after the 94 mid's and then decided to 'pivot' (tedious media babble) to the center.

Obama needs to ignore Clinton and go full bore with his plans. Collapse the system (Cloward and Pivens). On himself.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Obama's about to lay down the law.

White men: Lock yer womens up, cause the black man is comin' foh his 40 acres and his mule.

... and a bucket of fried chicken. And ribs.

 

[ravens]

Hilarious

Obama Girl is falling out of love.
(Don't worry, they don't go too bad on Him.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jP6oK_eAwc

 

[Anonymous]

My, My, My...

"Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now – suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.

And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming."

Is there now ANY doubt what the whole global warming thing was about?

Just follow the money...

The only upside from this is AlGore having another really bad day.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

 

[CentralCaliBike]

My, My, My...

"Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now – suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.

And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming."

Is there now ANY doubt what the whole global warming thing was about?

Just follow the money...

The only upside from this is AlGore having another really bad day.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

I have been way too busy the past few weeks to be on here but when I saw the headline I thought I would come over and post. Looks like you beat me to it

Of course I did notice a little global warming locally when I got out today - the temperatures were in the low 60s (Fahrenheit) and it was a great ride until I turned around and had to face the wind for the 20+ miles back to my car.

 

[Anonymous]

Simply because a posed a more or less frontal attack on the nature of American capitalism and, at the same time (since we can't separate the one from the other), made a rather ruthlessly unflattering portrait of the state of US conservatives today, does not in any way detract from its veracity.

As to the failure of socialism: you are fabricating a rather nonsensical statement, given that real socialism has never been practiced: either because deformed by fanatical nationalism or tempered (when not outright mutilated) by capitalist economic practice into that type of pseudosocialism I mentioned before. Yet if we go to a nation like Denmark, where at least a modicum of socialist culture still survives, we will find that the Danes live in among the most civilized and economically satisfactory places on earth.

By contrast if we look at the state of America today, where a spirit of savage capitalism reigns supreme, we will find just the opposite: namely that, and all the more appaling when we consider the nation's generated wealth, the US people are living ever harder times with only the prospect of insurmountable dept beckoning at the wings. A national dept which does not even contribute to their better living standards, but is the product of a fiscal policy that spends on the monetary demands of the insatiable appetites of the financial, industrial and military capitalist machines. Interests which dictate the political agenda and are by nature removed from the daily struggles of the common middle American, though, however, are not up for discussion after the votes are made.

Awesome. I spit up my Raisin Bran when I read this.

 

[Anonymous]

More cheerful economic news.

"For the U.S., the crushing weight of its debt threatens to overwhelm everything the federal government does, even in the short-term, best-case financial scenario -- a full recovery and a return to prerecession employment levels."

"Take Social Security, Medicare and other benefits. Add in interest payments on a national debt that now exceeds $12.3 trillion. It all will gobble up 80 percent of all federal revenues by 2020, government economists project.

That doesn't leave room for much else. What's left is the entire rest of the government, including military and homeland security spending, which has been protected and nurtured by the White House and Congress, regardless of the party in power.

The U.S. debt crisis also raises the question of how long the world's leading power can remain its largest borrower."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-debt-will-keep-growing-apf-219502322.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=



Then there is Greece (about as close as a country gets to financial collapse), where one-in-three employed persons works for the Government.

"Mr Papandreou blamed the European Commission for failing to crack down on the previous conservative government’s “criminal record” in falsifying statistics. “This has undermined the responsibility of the European institutions with international markets,” he said.

His outburst is likely to infuriate the very leaders whose help Mr Papandreou needs. It came as it emerged there would be no more talk of financial assistance until Athens had persuaded the EU that it had a sustainable austerity programme in place. "

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3cfeab9e-1813-11df-91d2-00144feab49a.html

And this has led to the inevitable finger pointing (and predictions of the collapse of the 'eurozone').

"The European single currency is facing an 'inevitable break-up' a leading French bank claimed yesterday.
Strategists at Paris-based Société Générale said that any bailout of the stricken Greek economy would only provide 'sticking plasters' to cover the deep- seated flaws in the eurozone bloc.
The stark warning came as the euro slipped further on the currency markets and dire growth figures raised the prospect of a 'double-dip' recession in the embattled zone. "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1250433/Greece-debt-bailout-EU-leaders-split-euro-crisis.html

 

[ravens]

More cheerful economic news.

"For the U.S., the crushing weight of its debt threatens to overwhelm everything the federal government does, even in the short-term, best-case financial scenario -- a full recovery and a return to prerecession employment levels."

"Take Social Security, Medicare and other benefits. Add in interest payments on a national debt that now exceeds $12.3 trillion. It all will gobble up 80 percent of all federal revenues by 2020, government economists project.

That doesn't leave room for much else. What's left is the entire rest of the government, including military and homeland security spending, which has been protected and nurtured by the White House and Congress, regardless of the party in power.

The U.S. debt crisis also raises the question of how long the world's leading power can remain its largest borrower."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-debt-will-keep-growing-apf-219502322.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=



Then there is Greece (about as close as a country gets to financial collapse), where one-in-three employed persons works for the Government.

"Mr Papandreou blamed the European Commission for failing to crack down on the previous conservative government’s “criminal record” in falsifying statistics. “This has undermined the responsibility of the European institutions with international markets,” he said.

His outburst is likely to infuriate the very leaders whose help Mr Papandreou needs. It came as it emerged there would be no more talk of financial assistance until Athens had persuaded the EU that it had a sustainable austerity programme in place. "

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3cfeab9e-1813-11df-91d2-00144feab49a.html

And this has led to the inevitable finger pointing (and predictions of the collapse of the 'eurozone').

"The European single currency is facing an 'inevitable break-up' a leading French bank claimed yesterday.
Strategists at Paris-based Société Générale said that any bailout of the stricken Greek economy would only provide 'sticking plasters' to cover the deep- seated flaws in the eurozone bloc.
The stark warning came as the euro slipped further on the currency markets and dire growth figures raised the prospect of a 'double-dip' recession in the embattled zone. "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1250433/Greece-debt-bailout-EU-leaders-split-euro-crisis.html

Bill Parcells says you are what your record says you are. And I add to that we are what our government does.

And what our government does - both parties - is continuously award new benefits that cost billion - oops, trillions and defer the expense of said program through borrowing.

Neither party can stop this. The painful cost of the simultaneous cutting - DEEP YEAR OVER YEAR CUTTING - and the paying down of the debt is politically impossible. We're doomed. There is going to be plenty of blame to go around, but ultimately voters did not have the courage to face what they instinctively know to be true: you can't have it all. You can go buy that BMW, sure, but try buying it and not making the payments and something is gonna have to give.

When our debtors can't afford to fund our lifestyle any longer what are we going to do? What are they (the debtors) going to do?

I am under the impression that the bailout of Greece's problems is going to be awaits us writ small. Watch this unfold closely.

 

[ravens]

This Just in ....

From the Publishers of No *** Daily

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton: 'Iran is becoming a military dictatorship'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...Iran-military-dictatorship.html#ixzz0fdIZVtmR

jeezzuussss aitch chrrrisst

Can you imagine this imbecile on the Supreme Court? She hit the high note 36 years ago working against Nixon and then the VRWC line is legendary.

 

[ravens]

Fyi

I make no judgment. Just passing it along. I think impeachment is ridiculous. What is the crime? Although we seem to be just about done with that whole Constitution thing-y so what's to stop anything from happening....

I haven't the foggiest why this particular image doesn't display. Maybe the server is a Democrat?

 

[scribe]

Evan Bayh = quitter

what the hell is quitting gonna do for regarding the extreme partisan position of republicans? He is actually giving that seat to the Republicans.

 

[ihavenolimbs]

Use the arithmetic Luke

Scott, you're still going on about the deficit. And you're quoting some bogus figures too.

If 80% of federal expenditure is spend on servicing the debt, $12.3 trillion (I thought it was soon gonna be over $14 trillion?), and assuming that there is zero growth between now and 2020, and using the pre-recession tax receipts of about $2.4 trillion, then the interest rate would have to be about 16% per annum. Not that believable really is it?
(Except that their dodgy math is assuming that the govt will continue running $1 trillion+ deficits for the next 10 years, obviously a foolish assumption.)

But there will be growth (unless the govt tries to prevent deficits, then the economy will likely enter into a depression), the effective interest rate will be very low, and tax receipts will increase, and unemployment insurance payouts will decrease, and the stimulus will end, so this will take care of most of the deficit.

Economic growth alone will shrink the debt as a percentage of GDP too.

Obviously your source is using bogus and alarmist figures. With such dishonesty it is probably safe to say they have an agenda.

Instead of just whining about what Obama is doing, why don't libertarians and conservatives offer policy ideas backed by sound economic principles? (This obviously excludes the free-market mantra that if the govt stopped meddling then the "magic of the marketplace" will cure all. This is a faith-based mantra and not based on sound principles.)

 

[Anonymous]

Scott, you're still going on about the deficit. And you're quoting some bogus figures too.

If 80% of federal expenditure is spend on servicing the debt, $12.3 trillion (I thought it was soon gonna be over $14 trillion?), and assuming that there is zero growth between now and 2020, and using the pre-recession tax receipts of about $2.4 trillion, then the interest rate would have to be about 16% per annum. Not that believable really is it?
(Except that their dodgy math is assuming that the govt will continue running $1 trillion+ deficits for the next 10 years, obviously a foolish assumption.)

But there will be growth (unless the govt tries to prevent deficits, then the economy will likely enter into a depression), the effective interest rate will be very low, and tax receipts will increase, and unemployment insurance payouts will decrease, and the stimulus will end, so this will take care of most of the deficit.

Economic growth alone will shrink the debt as a percentage of GDP too.

Obviously your source is using bogus and alarmist figures. With such dishonesty it is probably safe to say they have an agenda.

Instead of just whining about what Obama is doing, why don't libertarians and conservatives offer policy ideas backed by sound economic principles? (This obviously excludes the free-market mantra that if the govt stopped meddling then the "magic of the marketplace" will cure all. This is a faith-based mantra and not based on sound principles.)

BS Talking points.

Look, if you have a problem with facts presented then refute it with something other than your opinion. Fair enough?

Rich is the irony of your assertion of market based capitalism being a faith-based mantra.

BTW, in a scenario where one third of the federal budget is borrowed money, how much would the economy have to grow to generate enough revenue to cover the deficit spending, not to mention the debt service or principal reduction?

Here is a graph of the US GNP.

And lastly, the article said;

"Take Social Security, Medicare and other benefits. Add in interest payments on a national debt that now exceeds $12.3 trillion. It all will gobble up 80 percent of all federal revenues by 2020, government economists project."

This is based on the deficit/debt projections and GDP projection to the year 2020.

I'm sure you just mis-read that part.

 

[Anonymous]

Evan Bayh = quitter

what the hell is quitting gonna do for regarding the extreme partisan position of republicans? He is actually giving that seat to the Republicans.

I read where Bayh has something like $13,000,000 in his campaign coffers. Probably 13,000,000 reasons to take a walk.

 

[ravens]

Evan Bayh = quitter

what the hell is quitting gonna do for regarding the extreme partisan position of republicans? He is actually giving that seat to the Republicans.

He is free to vote as he choose for the next 8.5 months. So is he free to vote his conscience or will he vote what the party tells him to do? Or, odd as it may seem, will he vote for what his constituents want?

 

[ihavenolimbs]

It all will gobble up 80 percent of all federal revenues by 2020, government economists project.

You realize these anonymous statements have very little value? The article may well have said "some homeless guy projects" and still had the same (lack of) credibility. Also, are these the same govt economists that missed that whole housing bubble thing? Yeah, I know how easy it is to miss a $10 trillion bubble. Loose change for most people.

That's beside the point, anyway. I can quote Nobel Prize winning economists like Stiglitz and Krugman that say differently to these anonymous, "govt economists". And they don't mind having their names linked to their views either. A tad more credibility?

Rich is the irony of your assertion of market based capitalism being a faith-based mantra.

That's not what I wrote. My point is that whenever there is a massive market failure, govt intervention is needed. When this doesn't happen, or is insufficient, recessions become depressions.

The faith part is the belief that markets will magically heal themselves in the short term, though the proponents of this belief system can not elaborate on the mechanism.
(As Keynes pointed out, markets will actually self-correct in the long-term, but how long? 10 years? 100? And at the expense of how much productivity, and how many jobs in the mean-time?)

Anyway, NZ used to be the wealthiest country per capita in the world. Maybe if the tea-baggers in your country actually believe this free-market fundie stuff, and then turf out Obama and implement this Palinomics, it might give little ol' NZ a chance to pass the US in per capita wealth again.

The current situation is that there is unutilised and underutilised capital and labour, what's the Scott Socal solution?

 

[ravens]

Instead of just whining about what Obama is doing, why don't libertarians and conservatives offer policy ideas backed by sound economic principles? (This obviously excludes the free-market mantra that if the govt stopped meddling then the "magic of the marketplace" will cure all. This is a faith-based mantra and not based on sound principles.)

We're scroooed. I already addressed it this morning. It is not a democrat or republican or liberal/progressive vs conservative thing. It's a weakness that the voters have of voting very nice benefits for themselves by borrowing against the future to pay for it. The credit card is nearing the limit. And still we won't stop.

The people holding our debt are very likely to impose serious spending cuts and curtailment of entitlements until we get our house in order.

As for faith based mantra, the only faith based mantra are the zealots who still believe global warming ever was real.

 

[buckwheat]

We're scroooed. I already addressed it this morning. It is not a democrat or republican or liberal/progressive vs conservative thing. It's a weakness that the voters have of voting very nice benefits for themselves by borrowing against the future to pay for it. The credit card is nearing the limit. And still we won't stop.

The people holding our debt are very likely to impose serious spending cuts and curtailment of entitlements until we get our house in order.

As for faith based mantra, the only faith based mantra are the zealots who still believe global warming ever was real.

I thought Herbert Hoover was dead?

Isn't one Great Depression enough?

We need another stimulus obviously.

BTW, I thought you were out and going to keep your silliness to yourself?

 

[buckwheat]

You realize these anonymous statements have very little value? The article may well have said "some homeless guy projects" and still had the same (lack of) credibility. Also, are these the same govt economists that missed that whole housing bubble thing? Yeah, I know how easy it is to miss a $10 trillion bubble. Loose change for most people.

That's beside the point, anyway. I can quote Nobel Prize winning economists like Stiglitz and Krugman that say differently to these anonymous, "govt economists". And they don't mind having their names linked to their views either. A tad more credibility?


That's not what I wrote. My point is that whenever there is a massive market failure, govt intervention is needed. When this doesn't happen, or is insufficient, recessions become depressions.

The faith part is the belief that markets will magically heal themselves in the short term, though the proponents of this belief system can not elaborate on the mechanism.
(As Keynes pointed out, markets will actually self-correct in the long-term, but how long? 10 years? 100? And at the expense of how much productivity, and how many jobs in the mean-time?)

Anyway, NZ used to be the wealthiest country per capita in the world. Maybe if the tea-baggers in your country actually believe this free-market fundie stuff, and then turf out Obama and implement this Palinomics, it might give little ol' NZ a chance to pass the US in per capita wealth again.

The current situation is that there is unutilised and underutilised capital and labour, what's the Scott Socal solution?

You're 100% correct. I'm going to disregard the trolls from now on. I hope for their sake they're trolls because no one can be that deluded; I don't think they could be anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

You realize these anonymous statements have very little value? The article may well have said "some homeless guy projects" and still had the same (lack of) credibility. Also, are these the same govt economists that missed that whole housing bubble thing? Yeah, I know how easy it is to miss a $10 trillion bubble. Loose change for most people.

That's beside the point, anyway. I can quote Nobel Prize winning economists like Stiglitz and Krugman that say differently to these anonymous, "govt economists". And they don't mind having their names linked to their views either. A tad more credibility?


That's not what I wrote. My point is that whenever there is a massive market failure, govt intervention is needed. When this doesn't happen, or is insufficient, recessions become depressions.

The faith part is the belief that markets will magically heal themselves in the short term, though the proponents of this belief system can not elaborate on the mechanism.
(As Keynes pointed out, markets will actually self-correct in the long-term, but how long? 10 years? 100? And at the expense of how much productivity, and how many jobs in the mean-time?)

Anyway, NZ used to be the wealthiest country per capita in the world. Maybe if the tea-baggers in your country actually believe this free-market fundie stuff, and then turf out Obama and implement this Palinomics, it might give little ol' NZ a chance to pass the US in per capita wealth again.

The current situation is that there is unutilised and underutilised capital and labour, what's the Scott Socal solution?

I just have to laugh. There are only three economists worth discussing on planet earth. Keynes, Krugman and Stiglitz. You guys are nothing if not amazingly deep.

Again I see you can't or won't refute the article regarding the US debt and the amount of GNP it will gobble up by 2020. I also see you kinda blew off my question of you regarding how much GNP growth it will take to get the US out of this mess.

Read some of this guy and you might have a new perspective.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp

 

[Anonymous]

I thought Herbert Hoover was dead?

Isn't one Great Depression enough?

We need another stimulus obviously.

BTW, I thought you were out and going to keep your silliness to yourself?

And whom shall we borrow the money from? Just wait until we get one of these from the major US debt holders;

"In this context, we fully support the efforts of the Greek government and their commitment to do whatever is necessary, including adopting additional measures to ensure that the ambitious targets set in the stability programme for 2010 and the following years are met. We call on the Greek government to implement all these measures in a rigorous and determined manner to effectively reduce the budgetary deficit by 4% in 2010."

Just replace the word 'Greek' with the word 'American.'


http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/112856.pdf

 

[ihavenolimbs]

The reason why I mentioned three mainstream economists (maybe not mainstream enough to the fringe right) is because I doubt that you've heard of Robin Hahnel or Dean Baker, a couple of very perceptive economists.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp

I have yet to see him offer any concrete solutions to the current crisis. Feel free to point out if I'm wrong. I am genuinely interested to here plausible arguments for other means of escaping recession.

At least neo-classical and Keynesian economists have models and rules-of-thumb to cope with crises. Sowell's one trick is to claim that it is all the govt's fault and that the market will magically fix itself if the govt does nothing. (Without explaining why businesses will start investing in capital and hiring when consumer demand is low.)

P.S. Thomas Sowell is the intellectual who's just written a book telling us all that we should ignore intellectuals, and apparently not getting the irony of it.

 

[ihavenolimbs]

You're 100% correct. I'm going to disregard the trolls from now on. I hope for their sake they're trolls because no one can be that deluded; I don't think they could be anyway.

I don't think Scott Socal or Central Cali are trolls. They just have different views on economics to us. It became fashionable in the 80s to believe in the magic of free-markets. And that anything that the govt does will make them less efficient. This has subsequently been shown to be wrong, but the idea of free-markets seems so simple and elegant that it has stuck around.

(It takes only 5 mins to explain free-market ideology and a whole book to show where and why it is wrong.)

Raven's though, he just cut&pastes Rush Limbaugh talking points to get a rise out of people. Maybe he doesn't realise that we've all heard them before, and they were foolish then, just as now.