World Politics

[TRDean]

This is a completely disgusting post. This may be your perception but there's no reality there.

Really, really sad.

Yea...I think I have to agree with you Scott!!

 

[Anonymous]

It is all a process.

I do not think it is the end of the world but hey some folks here do.

Well, for starters, for the first time in the history of the USA it's citizens are being compelled to purchase a product.

I'm no constitutional scholar but I'm guessing the commerce clause has been violated among other things.

But hey, it's for a good cause so who cares?

 

[rhubroma]

Many of them also believe that a single breach of that, even on the smallest level, will lead to full collectivism.

Yes, a perfect example. Most conservatives believe these people should be turned away at medical centers and put back on the street, receiving no health care. Or better yet, arrested and deported for being in the country illegally; even if in dire need of medical assistance. They can get that back in the country they came from.

The right disdains the collective, because it is seen as a hindrance to their obsession with fullfilling personal economic potentiality. They conveniently forget, however, that no one exists in a vacume, and, consequently, nobody is thus truly self-made or without owing a debt to that same society, without
which, they could not possibly have earned all that money.

As it is, or perhaps was, in America, healthcare was a commodity (like a car or a dishwasher) and thus governed by the market laws of supply and demand, rather than a civil (and civilized) right from birth to death like being gauranteed the right to a fair trial in court. It is furthermore connected to a philosophy that sees every individual as his own master in an absolute sense and that nobody should have to be responsible for the well being of anyone but himself and kin. At the same time, such a philosophy views health as merely a product to be bought and sold at the highest price and not a social treasure of the Nation. If one can't afford the exorbitant costs of the insurance policies, tough.

In Italy not only is every citizen granted healthcare through the collectives' taxes, but anyone within national soil that gets injured and needs medical treatment can go to any emergency room and be treated free of charge. Whereas in the States, as it has happened, if a foreign tourist gets shot on a Florida state highway during a drug gang shootout, he gets treated and then has the $100,000 bill sent to his foreign address.

What we are talking about here is simply the difference between a matter of moral and humane legislation over the barbarity of the Far West.

 

[rhubroma]

The simple answer is because nothing is free.....someone will pay for it.

Yes, like we pay for our nuclear arsenal...

 

[rhubroma]

I didn't realize he was buried in Pere Lachaise. I can never spend enough time there; usually it just involves a quick trip to see Morrison and then off to Pigale to drink and party.

I need to make a point to look up his grave next time I am travelling thru Paris, on my way to far off lands to pillage for oil.

Make sure you stop on the rive gauche, though I find the views of Rome from the Pincio far more condusive to a pillaging mindset.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, for starters, for the first time in the history of the USA it's citizens are being compelled to purchase a product.

Wrong, car insurance.

I'm no constitutional scholar but I'm guessing the commerce clause has been violated among other things.

Wrong, Article 3 of the constitution gives the power of determining what is and is not constitutional to the Supreme Court of the United States. There is plenty of precedent to back up the fact that this bill is just fine based on prior rulings.

But hey, it's for a good cause so who cares?

It is for a good cause, and one that would have seen no improvement if it were left to the Republicans. It is a myth to say they would have done ANYTHING about health care left to their own devices.

 

[Anonymous]

The right disdains the collective, because it is seen as a hindrance to their obsession with fullfilling personal economic potentiality. They conveniently forget, however, that no one exists in a vacume, and, consequently, nobody is thus truly self-made or without owing a debt to that same society, without
which, they could not possibly have earned all that money.

As it is, or perhaps was, in America, healthcare was a commodity (like a car or a dishwasher) and thus governed by the market laws of supply and demand, rather than a civil (and civilized) right from birth to death like being gauranteed the right to a fair trial in court. It is furthermore connected to a philosophy that sees every individual as his own master in an absolute sense and that nobody should have to be responsible for the well being of anyone but himself and kin. At the same time, such a philosophy views health as merely a product to be bought and sold at the highest price and not a social treasure of the Nation. If one can't afford the exorbitant costs of the insurance policies, tough.

In Italy not only is every citizen granted healthcare through the collectives' taxes, but anyone within national soil that gets injured and needs medical treatment can go to any emergency room and be treated free of charge. Whereas in the States, as it has happened, if a foreign tourist gets shot on a Florida state highway during a drug gang shootout, he gets treated and then has the $100,000 bill sent to his foreign address.

What we are talking about here is simply the difference between a matter of moral and humane legislation over the barbarity of the Far West.

Well thank God all medical care will be free now. Problem solved.

 

[Anonymous]

This is what the EVIL health care bill does: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...75137370275522704.html?mod=wsj_share_facebook

Just like the USSR...

Come down off the ledge, its going to be okay.

 

[Anonymous]

Wrong, car insurance.



Wrong, Article 3 of the constitution gives the power of determining what is and is not constitutional to the Supreme Court of the United States. There is plenty of precedent to back up the fact that this bill is just fine based on prior rulings.



It is for a good cause, and one that would have seen no improvement if it were left to the Republicans. It is a myth to say they would have done ANYTHING about health care left to their own devices.

Bad analogy TFF. No one forces you to buy car insurance if you don't drive. Huge difference.

My guess is that the federal Govt will be sued within minutes of Obama signing this legislation and we are gonna find out if it passes constitutional muster.

 

[rhubroma]

Well thank God all medical care will be free now. Problem solved.

Imagine, not only are the Italians willing to pay for socialized healthcare with their taxes which nobody dares complain about, but they even pay for foreigners when emergency arrises at home. How revolutionary!

Yes it must be paid for, true. So what?

 

[slowoldman]

Honest question......I honestly don't know the answer to this although I could probably guess.

If I went to another country (without becoming a citizen of said country) with national health care (purposely avoiding the word socialized) would I be entitled to coverage?

How about if I went there illegally?

 

[Anonymous]

This is what the EVIL health care bill does: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...75137370275522704.html?mod=wsj_share_facebook

Just like the USSR...

Come down off the ledge, its going to be okay.

From your posted article;

Taxes and fees

Drug makers face annual fee of $2.5 billion (rises in subsequent years).

Taxes and fees

New Medicare taxes on individuals earning more than $200,000 a year and couples filing jointly earning more than $250,000 a year.
Tax on wages rises to 2.35% from 1.45%.
New 3.8% tax on unearned income such as dividends and interest.
Excise tax of 2.9% imposed on sale of medical devices

Requirement begins for most people to have health insurance. Subsidies begin for lower and middle-income people. People at 133% of federal poverty level pay maximum of 3% of income for coverage. People at 400% of poverty level pay up to 9.5% of income. (Poverty level currently is about $22,000 for a family of four.)

Taxes and fees

Employers with more than 50 employees that don't provide affordable coverage must pay a fine if employees receive tax credits to buy insurance. Fine is up to $3,000 per employee, excluding first 30 employees.
Insurance industry must pay annual fee of $8 billion (rises in subsequent years).

Taxes and fees

Penalty for those who don't carry coverage rises to 2.5% of taxable income or $695, whichever is greater

Taxes and fees

Excise tax of 40% imposed on health plans valued at more than $10,200 for individual coverage and $27,500 for family coverage.

 

[Anonymous]

Imagine, not only are the Italians willing to pay for socialized healthcare with their taxes which nobody dares complain about, but they even pay for foreigners when emergency arrises at home. How revolutionary!

Yes it must be paid for, true. So what?

By whom?

I'm not talking about Italy, you are. Who pays (or will pay, or is currently paying) for this in the USA?

 

[titan_90]

By whom?

I'm not talking about Italy, you are. Who pays (or will pay, or is currently paying) for this in the USA?

Everyone

 

[rhubroma]

Bad analogy TFF. No one forces you to buy car insurance if you don't drive. Huge difference.QUOTE]

A car, stricktly speaking, is not necessary to live...health, until proven otherwise, is.

So while nobody forcing me to buy a car carries with it life threatening consequences, if I'm not "forced" to "buy" healthcare and can't afford it, I might die. Herein lies the real huge difference.

 

[rhubroma]

By whom?

I'm not talking about Italy, you are. Who pays (or will pay, or is currently paying) for this in the USA?

Italy was merely an instrumental reference to demonsterate that which is simply humane over that which simply is not dimwit.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, like we pay for our nuclear arsenal...

Oh, how clever.

 

[rhubroma]

Oh, how clever.

I've got a million of em, I would have you know...

 

[Anonymous]

Italy was merely an instrumental reference to demonsterate that which is simply humane over that which simply is not dimwit.

Ok. So the Italian system is without flaws. Great.

 

[slowoldman]

Honest question......I honestly don't know the answer to this although I could probably guess.

If I went to another country (without becoming a citizen of said country) with national health care (purposely avoiding the word socialized) would I be entitled to coverage?

How about if I went there illegally?

Anybody? And please don't tell me that rhubroma has already answered this with the Italy response. That currently holds true here in America with our current healthcare system, foreigners will be treated here if it is an emergency. I am talking about sustained medical care like prenatal, cold and flu treatment, general medical care.

 

[Anonymous]

Everyone

Really? What of the 40 million uninsured that I keep hearing about?

 

[rhubroma]

Honest question......I honestly don't know the answer to this although I could probably guess.

If I went to another country (without becoming a citizen of said country) with national health care (purposely avoiding the word socialized) would I be entitled to coverage?

How about if I went there illegally?

Well coverage for foreigners is intended as an umbrella of necessary protection if injured while there. And, yes, even those that arrived illegally don't get turned away from hospital.

It boils down to a simple philosophy of giving medical assistance to those in need of it and thus to not deny such assistance for any reason, because necessary to physical health.

 

[slowoldman]

Well coverage for foreigners is intended as an umbrella of necessary protection if injured while there. And, yes, even those that arrived illegally don't get turned away from hospital.

It boils down to a simple philosophy of giving medical assistance to those in need of it and thus to not deny such assistance for any reason, because necessary to physical health.

So this is for sustained medical or just for emergency?

 

[rhubroma]

Anybody? And please don't tell me that rhubroma has already answered this with the Italy response. That currently holds true here in America with our current healthcare system, foreigners will be treated here if it is an emergency. I am talking about sustained medical care like prenatal, cold and flu treatment, general medical care.

Emergency costs are covered. For basic doctors visits, you need a tessera sanitaria which comes with residency (not necessarily citizenship) and a codice fiscali (basically a social security #).

 

[Big GMaC]

I normally stay out of the US Politics side of things because although my passport may say USA, I would definitely say I was British. But since Healthcare is a big deal etc. I have been reading up, doing the rounds, and JESUS H. CHRIST. how does anyone take Fox News seriously?

And why is anything remotely altruistic Communist and subversive?

I mean damn. Country is more fu5ked than I thought from my time in [admittedly sheltered] situations in the States.

Sorry for interrupting the flow, but had to say something