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Jun 16, 2009
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Ferminal said:
You do realise you're talking to the Official Breaker of the Contador Story in Australia? :D
Finally someone is using my official title. People should start using that title a lot more!
Spare Tyre said:
You love a bit of drama, don't you ACF? :p

Yes! Local politics can be much more interesting to discuss than a past war ravaged president.

btw, How many letters in the mail have you got about the election? So many!
 
Nov 2, 2009
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The Hitch said:
1 Paul Wolfowitz is hardly someone who wants to bring on the rapture by foreign policy.

2 What do you mean by "do america harm"?

3 The first ammendment of the US constitution guarantees seperation from state. This is more than the countries where you and i live, seeing as our head of state is also the head of a church. The problems with founding a church on the principles of Henry the 8th and all that.

Though in reality, the US does have religious bigotry in government. When i say this i have in mind GWHB who said that atheists are not welcome in america (though thanks to the constitution, he can do nothing about it). In my eyes, one big problem is that churches still get money from the government

1. I wasn't trying to link Wolfowitz to the rapture. His doctrine is pretty clear.

2. By do America harm, I mean "take action against" in whichever ways possible, eg, guerilla warfare, aka terrorism. To be clear, I am NOT advocating this, I am saying that reading the Wolfowitz Doctrine I understand why some non-Americans might feel sufficiently aggrieved to want to resist and do harm to the imperialist super-power.

3. The First Amendment might guarantee separation of Church and State in theory, but it quite clearly has not prevented it in practice.

In times gone by in Australia it probably mattered a little whether you were Catholic or Protestant and so on, but no voter cared much about the personal religious beliefs or practices of a politician. We didn't care about their personal or sex lives either. Since Pauline Hanson's One Nation phenomenon, when Johnny Howard found it useful to appropriate her xenophobia and moral conservatism rather than denounce or disregard it, we have had a gradual creeping of religion into the mix. Australia tends to follow America rather blindly, so it's also probably a reflection of the increased religiosity of American political life. I think our current PM has declared herself an atheist, though, which is rather refreshing. The previous couple of PMs had started playing to the "Hillsong" crowd, you know, those new-fangled evangelist mega churches.
 
Nov 2, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
Finally someone is using my official title. People should start using that title a lot more!


Yes! Local politics can be much more interesting to discuss than a past war ravaged president.


btw, How many letters in the mail have you got about the election? So many!

Hmmm, matter of opinion about local (state) politics, I think. ;)

Yeah, the letters can be annoying. I open them all up and check whether I can use the paper for draft printing, and otherwise ignore them.

The number you get depends on what seat you're in and how close it's likely to be. Last year I handed out How to Votes at the Higgins by-election (when Peter Costello resigned). Many people were FURIOUS with the Libs because they had sent out 14 letters to voters. Yes, people counted and yes, 14. (It might only be the Libs who have money to waste like that. ;) )

Edit to add: It often seemed to be the Libs voters who were most furious!
 
Cobblestones said:
Is that really news? I've always been under the impression that a lot of the GWB middle east policies were guided by some weird belief of bringing along the rapture. It was actually a pretty big point among religious conservatives and it wasn't really kept a secret.

Yes, I agree politics and religion get mixed up sometimes (unfortunately), but some of the posts here were entirely focused on religion.

Of course this isn't news. I was simply being purposefully melodramatic for effect, even though there's nothing melodramatic about the situation given that it is simply the actual state of things and has been now for quite some time.

I have always stated that when religion becomes political we get a public disaster. It was that way with the Neocons under Bush, who prayed together daily at the White House and who believed they were under a divine mission in the Middle East, for hundreds of thousands in the zone; just as it is this way for the equally, but no different, instrumental use of religion among the Islamic terrorists toward their victims. Naturally if we are to be objective when the political class, or in any case group leadership, believe they have been chosen by God, who then provides justification for their actions (a justification which, naturally, can't be democratically challenged because based on a so called Higher Authority), then we go against every Enlightenment principle upon which the modern democratic State was founded, "modern democratic State" underlined.

And make no mistake about it: when the US military tortures people, when they cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians with their missiles in the interests of the economy, then it behaves like the largest and most destructive international terrorist organization on planet earth. Or when the US multinationals, backed by the political establishment, rape and exploit the resources of a nation for their own immense profit while the local populations starve, because often in the Third World, and/or are repressed by the worst forms of dictatorship that they directly or indirectly support by their business practices: than that corporate establishment, and hence the American government and the people it represents, justifiably rouses the ire of those starving and repressed local populations, who then, in their desperation, are inclined to strike back with any means at their disposal. Many, indeed, have been recruited from such populations in Africa, Southern Asia and the Middle East by Al Qaeda and its affiliates.

Or when the US government unconditionally supports the Israeli State, even when that state breaks every international law in building new colonial residential districts beyond the UN established borders of 48 - at times even diverting what precious little water there is for those illegal developments away from the Palestinians. A local Arab population, moreover, that has been there historically for the past 1400 years and yet which, to add insult to injury, has been given no historical recognition by neither America nor the UN in having the right to form their own State as Israel has been permitted. An Israeli State which, furthermore, finds justification in such illegality by allowing the ultra-orthodox faction within the Knesset to bring the necessary pressure to bear on government to approve the colonies in the public (which means political) name of religion; because it claims that their God gave them the land according to their sacred book. But apart from this still being illegal according to international law, it is in addition anti-rational, anti-intellectual and, above all, anti-historical. Yet any criticism of the Israeli State from Westerners about its illegal actions, is immediately branded and conveniently derided as antisemitism. Not only is no State above criticism, but it has become a mystifying alibi. And so the rest of the world looks upon powerless at a regional problem, which eternally threatens us all with war.

There's no mystery here, for anyone with an objective eye on what has been taking place: namely prepotency in the fullest. Such grave injustices and hypocrisy also comes from a nation that claims the moral high ground, even says acts in the interests of freedom and democracy around the globe and, among some of its leadership, actually believes that it does so on behalf of righteousness and the Lord; which is something quite frankly base and appalling.

If there are so many populations these days that hate America, as I have personally experienced in my travels throughout the world, and therefore would find nothing more pleasurable than doing it harm, that see the Nation as a mendacious promoter of repression and evil for economic gain: then these are precisely the reasons why.

PS: And I'm not suggesting that there aren't grave problems, crimes and injustices coming from the Arab world - where the worst forms of oppressive totalitarian religious regimes hold power over the State, which are the worst forms of government - but that these things also take place in the US and Israeli body politics. The only difference being that such religious bigotry resides within a democratic State, where at least a modicum of constitutional civility and checks and balances to power still exist. Though these very religious elements in politics today are precisely the same forces that place those democratic principles under threat, as we saw during the Bush administration, and as was demonstrated by the article I referenced above.

One can, of course, go around telling people how to clean up their yards, but only on one condition: that one has cleaned up one's own yard first. Otherwise you merely seem like a vile hypocrite. And this is exactly the problem with the image of America's global leadership in many places around the world today.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Spare Tyre said:
Hmmm, matter of opinion about local (state) politics, I think. ;)

Yeah, the letters can be annoying. I open them all up and check whether I can use the paper for draft printing, and otherwise ignore them.

The number you get depends on what seat you're in and how close it's likely to be. Last year I handed out How to Votes at the Higgins by-election (when Peter Costello resigned). Many people were FURIOUS with the Libs because they had sent out 14 letters to voters. Yes, people counted and yes, 14. (It might only be the Libs who have money to waste like that. ;) )

Edit to add: It often seemed to be the Libs voters who were most furious!

Hehehehehe! I have had 10 from Labor and 5 liberal. I very much don't like my local MP (Labor) who has got her husband to write campaign letters for her talking about how good she is. Very manipulative and I really didn't like that. Anyway I am in a marginal seat so that is proabaly why I am getting so many letters!
 
Nov 2, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
Hehehehehe! I have had 10 from Labor and 5 liberal. I very much don't like my local MP (Labor) who has got her husband to write campaign letters for her talking about how good she is. Very manipulative and I really didn't like that. Anyway I am in a marginal seat so that is proabaly why I am getting so many letters!

10 letters from Labor and 5 from the Libs? I suppose that's a sign of Labor's desperation, and they SHOULD be feeling desperate. They have been abysmal in so many ways.

Honestly, I don't know who is going to win and I do not know whether Labor or the Libs would be better. I suspect I won't be impressed whichever gets to form government.

I'm in supposedly safe Labor seat. I don't think the incumbent is popular, but he'll probably get back in. The Libs have made an odd choice in their candidate, which might be because they don't think they really have a shot. The Greens should poll pretty strongly and there is an independent with a high profile who might do ok. Now that I think about it I realise I have met all 4 of these candidates and the Greens candidate is head and shoulders above the others but obviously most people will be voting according to pre-existing ideas, policies, or because they support one "team" or another and won't have personal knowledge of the candidates.

The really silly thing about those 14 letters in the campaign for Higgins is that Labor hadn't fielded a candidate, so the Libs were up against the Greens, the Democrats and the Sex Party, and a few independents. It was like firing cannonballs at people who had slingshots. No wonder people were furious!

OT: Hot night in St Kilda and there is some car dragging going on, can hear the tyres squealing as I write.
 
Jun 14, 2010
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Spare Tyre said:
In times gone by in Australia it probably mattered a little whether you were Catholic or Protestant and so on, but no voter cared much about the personal religious beliefs or practices of a politician. We didn't care about their personal or sex lives either. Since Pauline Hanson's One Nation phenomenon, when Johnny Howard found it useful to appropriate her xenophobia and moral conservatism rather than denounce or disregard it, we have had a gradual creeping of religion into the mix. Australia tends to follow America rather blindly, so it's also probably a reflection of the increased religiosity of American political life. I think our current PM has declared herself an atheist, though, which is rather refreshing. The previous couple of PMs had started playing to the "Hillsong" crowd, you know, those new-fangled evangelist mega churches.

What your talking about is voters making choices based on religion. Even in this country, supposedly so liberal, any atheist candidate has to go on about "how much respect he has for religious people" and faith, and how he believes religious leaders are important, bla bla bla.
And to be fair, (which i try to be) while the idea that the faithful can and do vote for religious bigots based on their religion, is unfortunate, thats exactly how it should be in a democracy.

I know myself i would be twice as likely to vote for a candidate if they declared themself a secularist atheist. Hell, if they threw in a " we strongly oppose the idea of religious schools" and a "we dont recognise the vatican as a state" I would be putting those leaftlets into letterboxes myself.

The religious, even crackpot extremists, have just as much a right as I to vote this way, if they so please.
 
The Hitch said:
What your talking about is voters making choices based on religion. Even in this country, supposedly so liberal, any atheist candidate has to go on about "how much respect he has for religious people" and faith, and how he believes religious leaders are important, bla bla bla.
And to be fair, (which i try to be) while the idea that the faithful can and do vote for religious bigots based on their religion, is unfortunate, thats exactly how it should be in a democracy.

I know myself i would be twice as likely to vote for a candidate if they declared themself a secularist atheist. Hell, if they threw in a " we strongly oppose the idea of religious schools" and a "we dont recognise the vatican as a state" I would be putting those leaftlets into letterboxes myself.

The religious, even crackpot extremists, have just as much a right as I to vote this way, if they so please.

In theory I agree 100%. I would only ask the religious to agree 100% too, but many, or at least a significant number with an agenda who have political clout, unfortunately do not.

Take the case of euthanasia. I'm for personal choice, with all the due precautions to avoid criminal acts, by the individual who let's say may be afflicted with a terminal illness and suffers terribly as a result. It is hypocritical and absurd, however, to propose, as many religious bigots do, that that means I'm pro-death. As if anyone of sane mind and in good health would choose to die, whereas the disturbed and the depressed who commit suicide shall always be with us, which thus is an entirely different matter. Nor would the State, by giving me this right, impose my ethic in any way, shape or form on anyone for whichever reason, be it religious or otherwise, by not allowing them to persist in their desire to live, even under tremendous suffering or by artificial means (liked being hooked-up to a machine), if that's their commitment.

And this is the problem. Namely that while I recognize other people's rights to pursue an ethic that is different from my own and for which I hold no pretensions to universality, I'm not treated with equal consideration and recognition by them. Therefore one ethic of so called "pro-life" (which is another ridiculous and nonsensical term) to live beyond certain limits and agonies is held to be absolute, and is without any regard for another ethic of those who are equally determined to end an unbearable or, at times, un-lived, in cases like irreversible comas, existence. And no government places any constraints or prohibitions on those who want to stay alive no matter what and as science permits. Whereas certain religious bigots demand that only their ethic counts, not mine, while their political purchase means that the law works in their favor.

In this sense they are the strong, I'm the weak. The strong who protest over the weak: sporting wise, that's not even fair.

This is another case in which those of religious belief demand that what they say is right should be held as universal, and therefore directly condition the lives of everyone: believer and non-believer alike. At this point we're not really talking about ethics any longer, but the right to exercise a personal freedom against an ideology. Not only is it not very sporting, its also very undemocratic.

Holland, where euthanasia is permitted by the State under very strict qualifications, is an example of a civilized nation.
 
Jun 14, 2010
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rhubroma said:
In theory I agree 100%. I would only ask the religious to agree 100% too, but many, or at least a significant number with an agenda who have political clout, unfortunately do not.

Take the case of euthanasia. I'm for personal choice, with all the due precautions to avoid criminal acts, by the individual who let's say may be afflicted with a terminal illness and suffers terribly as a result. It is hypocritical and absurd, however, to propose, as many religious bigots do, that that means I'm pro-death. As if anyone of sane mind and in good health would choose to die, whereas the disturbed and the depressed who commit suicide shall always be with us, which thus is an entirely different matter. Nor would the State, by giving me this right, impose my ethic in any way, shape or form on anyone for whichever reason, be it religious or otherwise, by not allowing them to persist in their desire to live, even under tremendous suffering or by artificial means (liked being hooked-up to a machine), if that's their commitment.

And this is the problem. Namely that while I recognize other people's rights to pursue an ethic that is different from my own and for which I hold no pretensions to universality, I'm not treated with equal consideration and recognition by them. Therefore one ethic of so called "pro-life" (which is another ridiculous and nonsensical term) to live beyond certain limits and agonies is held to be absolute, and is without any regard for another ethic of those who are equally determined to end an unbearable or, at times, un-lived, in cases like irreversible comas, existence. And no government places any constraints or prohibitions on those who want to stay alive no matter what and as science permits. Whereas certain religious bigots demand that only their ethic counts, not mine, while their political purchase means that the law works in their favor.

In this sense they are the strong, I'm the weak. The strong who protest over the weak: sporting wise, that's not even fair.

This is another case in which those of religious belief demand that what they say is right should be held as universal, and therefore directly condition the lives of everyone: believer and non-believer alike. At this point we're not really talking about ethics any longer, but the right to exercise a personal freedom against an ideology. Not only is it not very sporting, its also very undemocratic.

Holland, where euthanasia is permitted by the State under very strict qualifications, is an example of a civilized nation.


I also like Holland because they have very good drug laws. Even though i have no intention of taking marijuana myself, it has to be legal because otherwise you get 35 murders a day in juarez mexico. But more importantly, not only is prostitution legal, disable people can be payed money by the state to spend on prostitutes.:eek: A+ to the netherlands for this idea. Absolutely brilliant, 100% fair and a truly noble cause if there ever was one.

I am too very opposed to the "pro life " movement and remember the Terri Schiavo case well. It was a horrible thing to see people campaign for the prolonging of suffering of an innocent human being, because they believe their faith tells them.

Still, to play devils advocate, who am i to decide that euthanasia is acceptable. If a electorate in a state prefers the idea that people should be allowed to suffer in such cases, then they can vote for candidates who hold this idea and use their rights as citizens to push forward their position, as wrong as it may be.
 

Barrus

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Apr 28, 2010
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The Hitch said:
I also like Holland because they have very good drug laws. Even though i have no intention of taking marijuana myself, it has to be legal because otherwise you get 35 murders a day in juarez mexico. But more importantly, not only is prostitution legal, disable people can be payed money by the state to spend on prostitutes.:eek: A+ to the netherlands for this idea. Absolutely brilliant, 100% fair and a truly noble cause if there ever was one.

I am too very opposed to the "pro life " movement and remember the Terri Schiavo case well. It was a horrible thing to see people campaign for the prolonging of suffering of an innocent human being, because they believe their faith tells them.

Still, to play devils advocate, who am i to decide that euthanasia is acceptable. If a electorate in a state prefers the idea that people should be allowed to suffer in such cases, then they can vote for candidates who hold this idea and use their rights as citizens to push forward their position, as wrong as it may be.

Just to clarify.
Marihuana is not legal in the Netherlands, technically it is still illegal and is still included in the Dutch Opium Law (criminal dealing with narcotics in specific). However it is not enforced and is actively controlled by the government, by issuing licenses for sale and controlling the points of sale. Also it is improbable that even if one was to enforce the law, the courts would convict anyone for personal use.

Also concerning euthanasia, just because it technically is not allowed in many states, does not mean that it does not happen. In most cases no-one will come to know what has transpired and in the few times that it does happen, most family members do not press charges. If you look at practice, I would not be amazed i more than half of your doctors would assist in euthanasia, or assisted suicide in particular cases.

In reality is the current dutch law a codification of already existing case law which flowed from the practical reality that most doctors already followed. It is one of the cases that there was judge made law, something which is a reasonable rarity in most civil law states. This could also happen in the US and to be quite honest, it could happen sooner, mainly due to your common law system. The main problem on your side however are the ethical and moral concerns of too many of your citizens.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Spare Tyre said:
10 letters from Labor and 5 from the Libs? I suppose that's a sign of Labor's desperation, and they SHOULD be feeling desperate. They have been abysmal in so many ways.

Honestly, I don't know who is going to win and I do not know whether Labor or the Libs would be better. I suspect I won't be impressed whichever gets to form government.

I'm in supposedly safe Labor seat. I don't think the incumbent is popular, but he'll probably get back in. The Libs have made an odd choice in their candidate, which might be because they don't think they really have a shot. The Greens should poll pretty strongly and there is an independent with a high profile who might do ok. Now that I think about it I realise I have met all 4 of these candidates and the Greens candidate is head and shoulders above the others but obviously most people will be voting according to pre-existing ideas, policies, or because they support one "team" or another and won't have personal knowledge of the candidates.

The really silly thing about those 14 letters in the campaign for Higgins is that Labor hadn't fielded a candidate, so the Libs were up against the Greens, the Democrats and the Sex Party, and a few independents. It was like firing cannonballs at people who had slingshots. No wonder people were furious!

OT: Hot night in St Kilda and there is some car dragging going on, can hear the tyres squealing as I write.

tbh, i would much prefer a labor winning those inner city seats than the greens. I would like to see the Greens policies to be more scrutinised especially if they are going to get around 12-15% of the primary vote (which is scary imo).
 
The Hitch said:
I also like Holland because they have very good drug laws. Even though i have no intention of taking marijuana myself, it has to be legal because otherwise you get 35 murders a day in juarez mexico. But more importantly, not only is prostitution legal, disable people can be payed money by the state to spend on prostitutes.:eek: A+ to the netherlands for this idea. Absolutely brilliant, 100% fair and a truly noble cause if there ever was one.

I am too very opposed to the "pro life " movement and remember the Terri Schiavo case well. It was a horrible thing to see people campaign for the prolonging of suffering of an innocent human being, because they believe their faith tells them.

Still, to play devils advocate, who am i to decide that euthanasia is acceptable. If a electorate in a state prefers the idea that people should be allowed to suffer in such cases, then they can vote for candidates who hold this idea and use their rights as citizens to push forward their position, as wrong as it may be.

I didn't say I was opposed to "pro-life," any more than I could be said to be "pro-death." If someone wants to "fight for life," then that's their business. But no one, especially someone who demands that their religious views be binding also to me, can prevent me from taking my life if I retain that this is the right thing to do. I would exercise a personal liberty that simply can not be suppressed. Whether I want to or otherwise and, in the case of a biological will, whether I continue to want to or not, is the only issue of relevance.

The point is guaranteeing on the part of the State a respect for the rational and humane desires, in cases of insufferable and prolonged agony or an un-lived existence, even the will of others who are not biased by religious sentiment or ideology.

In the spirit of pluralism and reciprocal respect.
 
May 13, 2009
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Btw. I really really really recommend not to get into an abortion debate on the internet, ever.

In that sense, what do you guys all think about the Celtic Tiger, which turned out to be a popped balloon animal?

My take on it is that the interest rates which were common for the Euro zone were too low for the case of Ireland (they had quite healthy inflation or price increase) which created this huge (mostly housing) bubble. The government should have increased taxes or reduced spending to cool down the economy, but they did the exact opposite (morons they were). Now, the bubble popped, Ireland guaranteed for ALL banks (not just those deemed too big to fail), and finds itself on the wrong end of the credit rating scale. The EU (mostly GB and Germany) have to guarantee for Ireland; the same countries from which Ireland attracted jobs by means of their extremely low tax rates. Of course no one is happy (except for a few banksters which presumably invested their bonuses in something better than Irish bonds).

Capitalism is dead in the water.
 
May 23, 2010
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Cobblestones said:
Btw. I really really really recommend not to get into an abortion debate on the internet, ever.

In that sense, what do you guys all think about the Celtic Tiger, which turned out to be a popped balloon animal?

My take on it is that the interest rates which were common for the Euro zone were too low for the case of Ireland (they had quite healthy inflation or price increase) which created this huge (mostly housing) bubble. The government should have increased taxes or reduced spending to cool down the economy, but they did the exact opposite (morons they were). Now, the bubble popped, Ireland guaranteed for ALL banks (not just those deemed too big to fail), and finds itself on the wrong end of the credit rating scale. The EU (mostly GB and Germany) have to guarantee for Ireland; the same countries from which Ireland attracted jobs by means of their extremely low tax rates. Of course no one is happy (except for a few banksters which presumably invested their bonuses in something better than Irish bonds).

Capitalism is dead in the water.

The Banksters DID invest their bonuses in Irish Bonds and covered them with Credit Default Swap type thingys so they win win no matter what.
 
Cobblestones said:
Btw. I really really really recommend not to get into an abortion debate on the internet, ever.

In that sense, what do you guys all think about the Celtic Tiger, which turned out to be a popped balloon animal?

My take on it is that the interest rates which were common for the Euro zone were too low for the case of Ireland (they had quite healthy inflation or price increase) which created this huge (mostly housing) bubble. The government should have increased taxes or reduced spending to cool down the economy, but they did the exact opposite (morons they were). Now, the bubble popped, Ireland guaranteed for ALL banks (not just those deemed too big to fail), and finds itself on the wrong end of the credit rating scale. The EU (mostly GB and Germany) have to guarantee for Ireland; the same countries from which Ireland attracted jobs by means of their extremely low tax rates. Of course no one is happy (except for a few banksters which presumably invested their bonuses in something better than Irish bonds).

Capitalism is dead in the water.

As an Irish guy I met just recently told me, you don't give the Irish two things: alcohol and money. The don't know what to do with it.
 
Nov 2, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
tbh, i would much prefer a labor winning those inner city seats than the greens. I would like to see the Greens policies to be more scrutinised especially if they are going to get around 12-15% of the primary vote (which is scary imo).

Sorry to disappoint you, but I think those Greens policies ARE scrutinized by voters and for a lot of people they are far preferable to Labor or the Libs. It has been that way for me for the best part of a decade now.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Howard government dragged politics in this country a long way to the right. Labor followed, trying to pick up Coalition voters. The Greens are a resurgence of the Left, filling the vacuum left when Labor slunk after the Coalition. The Greens are popular with people who are socially progressive, environmentally conscious (both conservation-wise and climate-change-wise) and opposed to the follies of neo-liberalism. These things might not appeal to you, but they are important to an increasing number of other people.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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Spare Tyre said:
Sorry to disappoint you, but I think those Greens policies ARE scrutinized by voters and for a lot of people they are far preferable to Labor or the Libs. It has been that way for me for the best part of a decade now.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Howard government dragged politics in this country a long way to the right. Labor followed, trying to pick up Coalition voters. The Greens are a resurgence of the Left, filling the vacuum left when Labor slunk after the Coalition. The Greens are popular with people who are socially progressive, environmentally conscious (both conservation-wise and climate-change-wise) and opposed to the follies of neo-liberalism. These things might not appeal to you, but they are important to an increasing number of other people.

But are they tough on crime?
 
Nov 2, 2009
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The Hitch said:
What your talking about is voters making choices based on religion. Even in this country, supposedly so liberal, any atheist candidate has to go on about "how much respect he has for religious people" and faith, and how he believes religious leaders are important, bla bla bla.
And to be fair, (which i try to be) while the idea that the faithful can and do vote for religious bigots based on their religion, is unfortunate, thats exactly how it should be in a democracy.

I know myself i would be twice as likely to vote for a candidate if they declared themself a secularist atheist. Hell, if they threw in a " we strongly oppose the idea of religious schools" and a "we dont recognise the vatican as a state" I would be putting those leaftlets into letterboxes myself.

The religious, even crackpot extremists, have just as much a right as I to vote this way, if they so please.

Yes, and voting based on religious belief means that religion can shape and sometimes dominate politics, rendering the official separation of church and state theoretical.

Hitch, I used to think that democracy was naturally, unquestionably the thing to uphold. There are some extremely good arguments for democracy, of course. It pretty much goes without saying, although I am saying so, to be clear. But as you yourself point out, democracy means that religious fanatics have the right to vote and to organise a voting bloc or lobby, and under-educated people have the right to vote etc and so might vote for stupid things. And so democracy can produce some pretty shoddy outcomes. And Rhubroma is right (as per his euthanasia discussion), when religion enters the mix some of those outcomes affect the lives of others undemocratically and unreasonably.

Lately I have come to wonder whether, in this century, with the problems of a rapidly rising global population, climate change, peak oil etc we need a system which produces better outcomes. I don't know what it would be, maybe there isn't one. If there is it certainly hasn't emerged as such yet. It often seems to me that democracy, individualism and industrialized consumer capitalism, whilst admirable in so many ways, have contained the seeds of our own destruction.
 
Jun 14, 2010
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Spare Tyre said:
Yes, and voting based on religious belief means that religion can shape and sometimes dominate politics, rendering the official separation of church and state theoretical.

Hitch, I used to think that democracy was naturally, unquestionably the thing to uphold. There are some extremely good arguments for democracy, of course. It pretty much goes without saying, although I am saying so, to be clear. But as you yourself point out, democracy means that religious fanatics have the right to vote and to organise a voting bloc or lobby, and under-educated people have the right to vote etc and so might vote for stupid things. And so democracy can produce some pretty shoddy outcomes. And Rhubroma is right (as per his euthanasia discussion), when religion enters the mix some of those outcomes affect the lives of others undemocratically and unreasonably.

Lately I have come to wonder whether, in this century, with the problems of a rapidly rising global population, climate change, peak oil etc we need a system which produces better outcomes. I don't know what it would be, maybe there isn't one. If there is it certainly hasn't emerged as such yet. It often seems to me that democracy, individualism and industrialized consumer capitalism, whilst admirable in so many ways, have contained the seeds of our own destruction.

I said myself about 100 pages back that for me democracies main function was to prevent tyrany, and you asked me what i meant by that to which i gave a quote from John Locke. Or was it John Stewart Mill, i cant even remember.

Point is i stand by this. Im not too big a fan of churchill, who among other things sold my own country down the drain and briefly played with the thought of an alliance with the national socialists, but his 2 quotes on this are 100% accurate.

The best argument against democracy really is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter and this is what we are discussing when we look at the religious bigots.

And democracy really is the worst system except for all the others. I cant think of a better way to put that. To call democracy the worst system is as damning as you can get, regarding the huge flaws it has, and yet the second half is too absolutely right when it concludes that there is no alternative.

Man will never be able to get round the problem of deciding who is to be given greater power and on what basis. Man is himself unable to stop the sovereign from abusing his power, unless the sovereigns position is put under threat throgh elections and limits on power are created. And there a 360 degree turn back to democracy has been completed.

Ferminal said:
But are they tough on crime?

Put the cardboard into the Bin labelled "paper" and find out.
 
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Spare Tyre said:
Sorry to disappoint you, but I think those Greens policies ARE scrutinized by voters and for a lot of people they are far preferable to Labor or the Libs. It has been that way for me for the best part of a decade now.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Howard government dragged politics in this country a long way to the right. Labor followed, trying to pick up Coalition voters. The Greens are a resurgence of the Left, filling the vacuum left when Labor slunk after the Coalition. The Greens are popular with people who are socially progressive, environmentally conscious (both conservation-wise and climate-change-wise) and opposed to the follies of neo-liberalism. These things might not appeal to you, but they are important to an increasing number of other people.

They are hardly scrutinised. Maybe they should contribute to debates. There policies are hopeless. You just keep blaming Howard for everything wrong with this country. Bla bla bla!
 
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Not sure where to put this

sad to say but the 29 miners trapped ina mine in NZ were pronounced dead after a bigger, 2nd blast occurred exactly one hour ago.
 
Nov 2, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
They are hardly scrutinised. Maybe they should contribute to debates. There policies are hopeless. You just keep blaming Howard for everything wrong with this country. Bla bla bla!

The Greens would love to be invited to the debates, and voters should have the opportunity to see them participate. It's the major two parties who don't want them there. (If those two parties did, they'd make it happen.)

I know you are young, and you have no adult memory of a time before Howard. The world was different back then. He was the leader of the government which took the country significantly towards moral conservatism, increased racism and xenophobia, wedge politics, accelerated practice of neo-liberalism and to participation in two wars we had no business being part of. Shock jocks like Alan Jones bear a lot of responsibility too, as does the generally poor quality of our media. People voted for his government, though. I understand that. His personality and policies resonated with some sectors of the community. Ultimately responsibility rests with those people. But I'm never going to like Howard as a person or the policies of his government.

I'm pretty sure you didn't take Politics or Political Philosophy as electives at uni, did you? ;)
 
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Ferminal said:
It's not a laughing matter, criminals need to go to jail that way people will stop offending and society will be safer :confused:

I can't tell whether you are taking the ****. :confused:

In Victoria the Libs and Labor joust almost to the death in order to show voters they are the most serious about tackling crime. (Hence my laughing at your earlier response.)

The two major parties are responding to people's genuine and legitimate concerns and fears. But by trying so hard to top each other in the "Best in Tackling Crime" stakes, they also do voters a disservice because they could instead be pointing out that people's perception of crime in the community (and resulting fear of crime) is usually a gross exaggeration. Statistics almost invariably show crime to be far less frequent than commonly thought.

As to jail being a deterrent, well it's 15 years or so since I studied Sociology, but I'm pretty sure evidence shows that jail does not act as a deterrent in the way that people commonly think.

And BTW, my life has been profoundly affected by crime. I have PTSD, of which the major cause was being held up at gun point at the age of 24. I'm 50 now and the PTSD (which was undiagnosed for 20 odd years) has shredded my life.

I still believe policies should be formulated in response to evidence, though, not primarily in response to fear or perceptions which are inaccurate.

If you're genuinely interested in Greens policy on crime it comes under Justice, and here's a link to a PDF detailing their policy.
 
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