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Those charts from Chris E really tell the story. I'm baffled that any conservative sees them other than for what they really are. Then again, when one's mind is already made up, all the charts, even looking at their own city, country, doesn't mean anything. Take a look at Mexico, or Brazil, where some people are fabulously wealthy, living in walled off communities, driving around in armor plated Mercedes' with bullet proof glass. All while millions and millions of people live in slums. A conservative would tell you that if the wealthy there got a tax break it would grow their economy and help the poor.

Meanwhile, the terrorists may be winning, with our help. This is exactly what they want. Us to live in fear of boogeymen. And it's working. :(
 
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Anonymous

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Alpe d'Huez said:
Those charts from Chris E really tell the story. I'm baffled that any conservative sees them other than for what they really are. Then again, when one's mind is already made up, all the charts, even looking at their own city, country, doesn't mean anything. Take a look at Mexico, or Brazil, where some people are fabulously wealthy, living in walled off communities, driving around in armor plated Mercedes' with bullet proof glass. All while millions and millions of people live in slums. A conservative would tell you that if the wealthy there got a tax break it would grow their economy and help the poor.

Meanwhile, the terrorists may be winning, with our help. This is exactly what they want. Us to live in fear of boogeymen. And it's working. :(
Why the huge run up in the 1990's?

Why do you suppose the lines on the chart take huge plunges in bad economic times and huge increases in good economic times? In the 90's we had the dot coms and then the whole realestate market thing in the 2000's. What do you attruibute the big run ups to? Could it be risk related?

I'm baffled that any conservative sees them other than for what they really are.
I'm all ears. Tell me what's going on here.
 
May 23, 2010
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Scott SoCal said:
You could probably use some new material.
Its true.. the mega wealthy just stay that way... Somewhere there is a Republican congressman who thinks that the rich would feel better about themselves if there was 2 million homeless instead of 1 million. Then there is the scotties who read the obituaries in the paper and high five themselves for their courageous victory over those listed there in the paper.
 
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redtreviso said:
Its true.. the mega wealthy just stay that way... Somewhere there is a Republican congressman who thinks that the rich would feel better about themselves if there was 2 million homeless instead of 1 million. Then there is the scotties who read the obituaries in the paper and high five themselves for their courageous victory over those listed there in the paper.
New material. New Material. New Material.

This old stuff is just so very boring.
 
Scott SoCal said:
I'm all ears. Tell me what's going on here.
How about the tax rate is lower than it's been in something like 70 years. Working wages have been flat for 30 years, while health care costs have skyrocketed and benefits have waned. CEO's used to make 40 times what their workers made and were doing fine. Now it's something like 500 times. The top 400 people now have more money than the bottom half of the country combined.

Wait, you've heard those before, and they don't mean anything to you. Or you think the solution is lower taxes for corporations and the super wealthy shouldn't pay more. Or, actually, I'm not entirely sure what you think the solution is. Or that there even needs to be a solution.

I've listed mine several times, even when asked by you.

• Massive campaign finance reform, make lobbying a crime.
• Tax the top 1% at 39%, and the top .1% at 50%.
• Eliminate many deductions to the tax code (will take campaign and lobby reform to even attempt).
• Cut defense spending by 20%, fast track withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. Stop being the world's policeman. Take care of the US.
• Use investment, even if government employees and deficit financing, to increase future infrastructure for electric based energy (wind, solar, even nukes) to wean us off foreign oil as fast as possible.
• Single payer health care that's rationed and coupled with HSA's.
• Index capital gains to inflation. I'd also like to see it re-written to split it between capital investment types, though I realize this complicates matters.
• Large increase in SBA loans to US based small businesses. Under $50k for those struggling and true start-ups, up to $250k for established businesses.
• I'm even willing to cut the corporate tax rate, as long as something is done to insure the benefits from that go to US companies and workers wages/benefits, and foreign holdings by US corporations are taxed accordingly.
 
May 18, 2009
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usedtobefast said:
i guess you are the expert on that...
No, it is just nothing is "free". Somebody would have to pay for it. I am not for mass redistribution of income. I have the same scorn for groups you belong to as I do for Scott. No offense.
 
May 18, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
How about the tax rate is lower than it's been in something like 70 years. Working wages have been flat for 30 years, while health care costs have skyrocketed and benefits have waned. CEO's used to make 40 times what their workers made and were doing fine. Now it's something like 500 times. The top 400 people now have more money than the bottom half of the country combined.

Wait, you've heard those before, and they don't mean anything to you. Or you think the solution is lower taxes for corporations and the super wealthy shouldn't pay more. Or, actually, I'm not entirely sure what you think the solution is. Or that there even needs to be a solution.

I've listed mine several times, even when asked by you.

• Massive campaign finance reform, make lobbying a crime.
• Tax the top 1% at 39%, and the top .1% at 50%.
• Eliminate many deductions to the tax code (will take campaign and lobby reform to even attempt).
• Cut defense spending by 20%, fast track withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. Stop being the world's policeman. Take care of the US.
• Use investment, even if government employees and deficit financing, to increase future infrastructure for electric based energy (wind, solar, even nukes) to wean us off foreign oil as fast as possible.
• Single payer health care that's rationed and coupled with HSA's.
• Index capital gains to inflation. I'd also like to see it re-written to split it between capital investment types, though I realize this complicates matters.
• Large increase in SBA loans to US based small businesses. Under $50k for those struggling and true start-ups, up to $250k for established businesses.
• I'm even willing to cut the corporate tax rate, as long as something is done to insure the benefits from that go to US companies and workers wages/benefits, and foreign holdings by US corporations are taxed accordingly.
Since # 1 will never happen the rest is just fantasyland.
 
May 23, 2010
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or maybe they just drink alcohol


""In 2006, Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler at The University of Michigan and Georgia State University created fake newspaper articles about polarizing political issues. The articles were written in a way which would confirm a widespread misconception about certain ideas in American politics. As soon as a person read a fake article, researchers then handed over a true article which corrected the first. For instance, one article suggested the United States found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The next said the U.S. never found them, which was the truth. Those opposed to the war or who had strong liberal leanings tended to disagree with the original article and accept the second. Those who supported the war and leaned more toward the conservative camp tended to agree with the first article and strongly disagree with the second. These reactions shouldn’t surprise you. What should give you pause though is how conservatives felt about the correction. After reading that there were no WMDs, they reported being even more certain than before there actually were WMDs and their original beliefs were correct.""

http://www.alternet.org/media/151426/why_do_people_believe_stupid_stuff%2C_even_when_they%27re_confronted_with_the_truth
 
ChrisE said:
No, it is just nothing is "free". Somebody would have to pay for it. I am not for mass redistribution of income. I have the same scorn for groups you belong to as I do for Scott. No offense.
you a part of the group who hate groups:D
you have to stand for something,eh? no one gets out alive.
 
May 18, 2009
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usedtobefast said:
you a part of the group who hate groups:D
Maybe so. I just don't think that socialism to the degree touted by your group is sustainable because of human nature. Ambition, greed, selfishness, etc. are all part of human nature and they will not change. All we can do is work within the system to reward those needs as well as make government work for the people that need it.
 
ChrisE said:
Maybe so. I just don't think that socialism to the degree touted by your group is sustainable because of human nature. Ambition, greed, selfishness, etc. are all part of human nature and they will not change. All we can do is work within the system to reward those needs as well as make government work for the people that need it.
can't get around biology. people are greedy. that is why, and socialism is a kind of muddy water thing, the current system stinks here. we have dropped to the
lowest common denominator, instead of using our more ambitious, altruistic motives. i have noticed the "meaning(as in angry) of america" for a while. i don't care for it at all. the every man for himself stuff just does not work in the world we live in.
also with regard to redistribution of wealth, we have seen, in the rise in fuel prices, a huge transfer of wealth from the havenots to the haves. i have no figures, but it will be a lot.
not to mention the on going mortgage debacle.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Me .... well I am waiting till the USA becomes like Brazil and Mexico. That is what Alpe D. says will happen to the USA if the conservatives here keep pushing their agendas. Oh well at least we will have some good food, alcohol, and free hookers. I can not wait.

I will quit work tomorrow and wait.
 
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Anonymous

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Alpe d'Huez said:
How about the tax rate is lower than it's been in something like 70 years. Working wages have been flat for 30 years, while health care costs have skyrocketed and benefits have waned. CEO's used to make 40 times what their workers made and were doing fine. Now it's something like 500 times. The top 400 people now have more money than the bottom half of the country combined.

Wait, you've heard those before, and they don't mean anything to you. Or you think the solution is lower taxes for corporations and the super wealthy shouldn't pay more. Or, actually, I'm not entirely sure what you think the solution is. Or that there even needs to be a solution.

I've listed mine several times, even when asked by you.

• Massive campaign finance reform, make lobbying a crime.
• Tax the top 1% at 39%, and the top .1% at 50%.
• Eliminate many deductions to the tax code (will take campaign and lobby reform to even attempt).
• Cut defense spending by 20%, fast track withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. Stop being the world's policeman. Take care of the US.
• Use investment, even if government employees and deficit financing, to increase future infrastructure for electric based energy (wind, solar, even nukes) to wean us off foreign oil as fast as possible.
• Single payer health care that's rationed and coupled with HSA's.
• Index capital gains to inflation. I'd also like to see it re-written to split it between capital investment types, though I realize this complicates matters.
• Large increase in SBA loans to US based small businesses. Under $50k for those struggling and true start-ups, up to $250k for established businesses.
• I'm even willing to cut the corporate tax rate, as long as something is done to insure the benefits from that go to US companies and workers wages/benefits, and foreign holdings by US corporations are taxed accordingly.

How about the tax rate is lower than it's been in something like 70 years.
Ahhh, you bit... I didn't think you would. Since you are convinced this is a tax issue please explain the huge run up in wealth during the Clinton years.

health care costs have skyrocketed
Why do you suppose this has happened?

Wait, you've heard those before, and they don't mean anything to you.
I getting a little tired of this. FFS, point to where I have ststed anything of the sort. You are a bright guy... Is this normally how you debate?

I'm not entirely sure what you think the solution is
But you blast me anyways:confused:

• Massive campaign finance reform, make lobbying a crime.
We already agree on this. I'd go a little furter and actually do something about demonstratable corrupt politicians... Charlie Rangel comes to mind.

• Tax the top 1% at 39%, and the top .1% at 50%.
Okay. Do it. It won't work, but don't let that stop you.

The top marginal was at 39.6 during the Clinton years and yet the run up was in full flight. Tax the top 1/10 at 100%. There's not enough money there to pay for 3 monhs of our yearly deficit. Oh, and guess what? Wherever you set the number, the top 1/10 of 1 percent will find a way around it. I am not saying it's right, I'm saying what is.

Stop being the world's policeman
Agree 100%

• Single payer health care that's rationed and coupled with HSA's.
I agree somewhat but for different reasons. I think the only way to make healthcare reasonably affordable is to significantly diminsh the quality of care. You get cancer? You are going to die, but we will make you comfortable. You are old and need a new liver? Too bad, you do not have enough value left for society. That's where we are headed, like it or not.

• Index capital gains to inflation. I'd also like to see it re-written to split it between capital investment types, though I realize this complicates matters.
• Large increase in SBA loans to US based small businesses. Under $50k for those struggling and true start-ups, up to $250k for established businesses.
• I'm even willing to cut the corporate tax rate, as long as something is done to insure the benefits from that go to US companies and workers wages/benefits, and foreign holdings by US corporations are taxed accordingly

I agree with most of this. But none of it will happen. You have a very different perspective from the man running the show.
 
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ChrisE said:
No, it is just nothing is "free". Somebody would have to pay for it. I am not for mass redistribution of income. I have the same scorn for groups you belong to as I do for Scott. No offense.
Stop being a p****. Scorn and $1.50 will get you a crappy cup of coffee.

You don't know what you think, much less what I think.
 
You should run for office Scott. I gave you a big list of items, and you spent a lot of time selectively picking it apart and demanding proof, with claims it won't work. Without giving any solutions of your own.

This is why I'm left to assume you think either that taxes should be even lower, or that things are fine the way they are.
 
May 18, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
You should run for office Scott. I gave you a big list of items, and you spent a lot of time selectively picking it apart and demanding proof, with claims it won't work. Without giving any solutions of your own.

This is why I'm left to assume you think either that taxes should be even lower, or that things are fine the way they are.
That's because he is a clown with no economic integrity nor the intelligence to propose a sensible view as you did with your list. Hey, you're either a socialist or a flaming supply side parrot according to Scott. Anywhere in between and you're confused. :rolleyes:

He doesn't know what to think about taxes. He has zero idea what the right rate is across the board. The link I posted he has no answer for or path forward. He cannot come to sensible or defendable solutions like you have. He is just a rube spouting talking points, and I only find it mildly entertaining to engage with him once week or so. Any more than that and I start picking fuzz out of my navel. I marvel at your ability to stoop down on a daily basis with him.

BTW, did you see batshyt propose eliminating the minimum wage lol. Here Scotty!!! Dinner's ready!!
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
...
• Cut defense spending by 20%, fast track withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. Stop being the world's policeman. Take care of the US...
I have to admit, this one resonated as a somewhat bizarre. Because weren't we "taking care of the US" by setting the Middle East ablaze?

Then there is a catch 22 in the globalized world such as it exists today: namely, the moment America ceases to be the world's policeman, as you say, is the moment its superpower status starts toward precipitous decline.

You see once you have vied for and then actually become the rulers of the world, through a whole series of more or less messy business, then you have to assume certain responsibilities to stay on top as they say. The moment you are no longer capable of bringing the necessary pressure to bear and play the strong hand that forces the most congenial agenda to your interests and pummels all opposition into submission, then the end is near as either everything becomes chaotic, or else someone rises up in your place.

It has been this way for every empire throughout history and not even America can escape this fate. One day we will no longer rule the world, there's just no getting around it, or, if there is a means to avoid the most destructive nature of this fate, then perhaps it is precisely by not thinking only of ourselves.

On this account, however, I'm sure ChrisE has split his gut open with laughter at the utter ridiculousness and absurdity of such an idea, the alternative way. Just imagine, we keep a canister sealed forever and which has never been opened, because we were afraid and told that it would emit a dire poison as soon as it was opened, a poison from which we would instantly flee, believing it to be lethal. Though what we believe to be and were told was a spiritual poisoning in the canister is in fact something new and never inhaled that allows us to catch a whiff of the free spirit, take it in and get high on it, not just the odor of nationalist imbecility; but the scent of liberation, which is the essential nutriment of the mind.

For this reason if such a canister were to be opened the establishment would waste little time in re-confining it, whereas they would never forgive the ones who had poisoned the country by breaking the ancient seal imposed on the spirit by them.Their most pressing concern would be to recapture that evil spirit which has polluted the nation and confine it once more in the canister, which this time would not be double-sealed, but treble-sealed and they would obdurately refuse to let us reopen it, and come to think of it, most everyone would be too scared to insist.
 
Glenn_Wilson said:
Me .... well I am waiting till the USA becomes like Brazil and Mexico. That is what Alpe D. says will happen to the USA if the conservatives here keep pushing their agendas. Oh well at least we will have some good food, alcohol, and free hookers. I can not wait.

I will quit work tomorrow and wait.
That's pretty funny! Except you left the part out about having a better soccer team.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
You should run for office Scott. I gave you a big list of items, and you spent a lot of time selectively picking it apart and demanding proof, with claims it won't work. Without giving any solutions of your own.

This is why I'm left to assume you think either that taxes should be even lower, or that things are fine the way they are.
I have exactly zero interest in running for any public office.

I like most of your ideas and have already stated this.

Could it be possible that the income disparity could have more root causes than just the rate of taxation? I don't like higher taxes simply because of what it tends to do to our economy. That's it. If you can show me how higher taxes spurr economic activity then I'd like to see it.

So, root causes of income disparity... How about the decline of our education system began in the 1950's and was on a fairly steep downward curve by the mid-1960's. As the masses enter the job market with less skills and preparation then can it be coincidence that the latest run up in the 'inequity gap' follows this fairly closely?

The great society began about the same time as the decline in our education system. The war on poverty has unintentionally become a war on inner city family structure. The federal welfare programs have all but destroyed inner city families particularly among inner city black families. Teen pregnancy, drop out rate, incarceration, hopelessness... We have created millions of dependents that otherwise would have been productive members of society.

If I were to tell you that marriage is a key component to achieving financial success and a major factor in avoiding poverty would you believe it?

You quickly think the worst of me and that's okay. But with this issue (taxes) you are a one-trick pony and that's too bad.
 
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ChrisE said:
That's because he is a clown with no economic integrity nor the intelligence to propose a sensible view as you did with your list. Hey, you're either a socialist or a flaming supply side parrot according to Scott. Anywhere in between and you're confused. :rolleyes:

He doesn't know what to think about taxes. He has zero idea what the right rate is across the board. The link I posted he has no answer for or path forward. He cannot come to sensible or defendable solutions like you have. He is just a rube spouting talking points, and I only find it mildly entertaining to engage with him once week or so. Any more than that and I start picking fuzz out of my navel. I marvel at your ability to stoop down on a daily basis with him.

BTW, did you see batshyt propose eliminating the minimum wage lol. Here Scotty!!! Dinner's ready!!
Ah, Chrissy, you don't like getting called out do you? You said you were a pure capitalist. You don't or didn't know what that meant so now you are back peddaling. It's cool Chrissy, your secret is safe as I won't tell anybody.

I can't come forward with solution? Pfft. I can't help it if you won't read.

I have zero idea of what the correct tax rate should be? Well you probably missed the posts about a total re-write or our POS tax code. Even a total replacement with perhaps a consumption tax. You want a 39% top marginal??? Oh that's right, you have not put any of your solutions forward, have you? I asked you why there was a big run up in income inequality in the 1990's? Have you responded? NO. Are you even aware of what the top marginal rate was during the 1990's? Are you aware that during the Bush years the top 1% actually paid a higher percentage of their (higher) income with a lower top rate? Do you give a shit? The answers are no, no and no.

You are only interested in the drive-by smart *** comments designed to stir the pot.

I only find it mildly entertaining to engage with him once week or so. Any more than that and I start picking fuzz out of my navel. I marvel at your ability to stoop down on a daily basis with him.
You should stick to what you do best.
 
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