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Jul 4, 2011
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Cobblestones said:
The answer to your objections is: yes, and?

What is NATO nowadays? What purpose does it serve? Considering a true and lasting peace in Europe, does NATO in its present form have a positive or negative effect? What is more important for the future in Europe, an unchanged NATO or reduce the mistrust between Russia and the rest of Europe?

When you finish thinking about those questions, there's a second set of questions, where you replace 'NATO' with 'the US': does the US have a positive or negative effect on peace in the greater European region today? Why are the US/Russian relations so bad? What about the argument that normalization of relations will lead to democratization and peace? Does that not apply to Russia? Does it only apply to China? Anyway, who has greater deficiencies in democracy and human rights? Russia or China?

At present, I would argue that the US is still a positive player in Europe, but will that be true when the US/Russia relations don't improve? I'm not so sure about NATO any more. Stationing the missile defense system (against an completely overblown Iranian 'threat') and considering NATO's role in the Middle East, I would have a hard time seeing NATO's positive impact. Why then, would you cling to this organization or use its continued existence in an argument?

To be fair, I was pretty worried about these issues (especially the missile defence system in Czech Republic) when we were in the Bush Putin era. Since, Obama and Medvedev have become presidents the relations between the countries have improved what with the signing to the Nuclear START treaty though it did somewhat flare up in May.

Here's some clarification about the missile defence system
http://rt.com/news/czech-us-defense-system/
http://www.defencetalk.com/us-scraps-missile-defense-plan-for-czech-republic-34950/

About their joining the EU, I don't think that will happen. The furthest they will go is to hope that Russia will join the Shengen group of nations for visa fre travel.
Let's not forget in the late '90s this country was in super deep **** and there is still a very great feeling of betrayal among the population on part of the IMF. Also their govt channel RT is a Euro skeptic.

edit:
I think we all know what the answers for the first set of questions are. They have strained relations in the past especially again during the Bush Putin years. Yes there is political hegemony in Russia as it is pretty much a One Party Democracy, much like all new democracies (India had its first full 5 year govt by a non congress party in 1999 nearly 50 years after the country became republic). Unfortunately, there is the shutting up of political enemies culture (Anna Politkovskaya) but there are critics of the govt and there is much much more freedom of speech than in China.
 
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Strauss-Kahn sex case: French inquiry dropped

A French inquiry into attempted rape claims against ex-IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn has been dropped.

The prosecutor's office said the evidence suggested sexual assault - a less serious offence than attempted rape, with a shorter statute of limitations.

Writer Tristane Banon had accused Mr Strauss-Kahn of attempted rape in 2003.

Her accusation emerged while Mr Strauss-Kahn was accused of rape in New York; that case was later dropped.

Prosecutors said in a statement that "it is clear that, for lack of sufficient proof, a prosecution may not be initiated over the count of attempted rape, but facts that could be described as sexual assault have meanwhile been recognised".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15296244
 
I'm not surprised by the TP numbers, at all. Whatever original impetus they had post bank bailouts, has been replaced by the very vocal lunatic fringe. The problem is, they are so loud, and so active, they are shouting down and drowning out a lot of potential moderate conservative candidates.

I am a little surprised the 99ers keep rolling and remain popular.
 
May 23, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I'm not surprised by the TP numbers, at all. Whatever original impetus they had post bank bailouts, has been replaced by the very vocal lunatic fringe. The problem is, they are so loud, and so active, they are shouting down and drowning out a lot of potential moderate conservative candidates.

I am a little surprised the 99ers keep rolling and remain popular.

no such thing..they all suck
 
Interesting. Strange I guess that anyone would think that way.

Some 30+ years ago the "liberals" were often referred to as the working class. Everything from ironworkers, to loggers, to bricklayers, to textile weavers to firefighters. It's peculiar how the term has gone beyond a pejorative so many now interpret it to mean lazy hipsters wearing Birkenstocks smoking cloves and refusing to work.

As to the 53/47 percent argument, here's a very well written article in the St. Petersburg Times via Slate, clarifying how or why some 47% pay no federal taxes (but actually do). Worth a read.
 
Jul 4, 2011
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Interesting reads, both links above. Thanks for that.
Alpe, don't you think that an article written by a Russian newspaper may be discredited at the first opportunity by the people who would want to discredit the protests like Erin Burnett.

Anyway, a week or so ago, I was having a discussion about poverty and the poverty line somewhere and read this only yesterday.
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article2497773.ece

For the record $1 roughly = Rs 50 at the moment.

Edit:
The Jawaharlal Nehru University research wing tends to be left centrist in its economic views and takes into consideration a lot of the Indian common man needs.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Interesting. Strange I guess that anyone would think that way.

Some 30+ years ago the "liberals" were often referred to as the working class. Everything from ironworkers, to loggers, to bricklayers, to textile weavers to firefighters. It's peculiar how the term has gone beyond a pejorative so many now interpret it to mean lazy hipsters wearing Birkenstocks smoking cloves and refusing to work.

As to the 53/47 percent argument, here's a very well written article in the St. Petersburg Times via Slate, clarifying how or why some 47% pay no federal taxes (but actually do). Worth a read.


I have always believed that in the country the most activist liberals were not the working class, but the intellectuals, graduates and artists (allà Beat-neck generation), which is why things don't change because not grass roots enough. The working class in America is largely made up of uncontentious patriots, who are really rather conservative in their world view and thus disdain them, even if they vote against their own interests.

There is not a traditional workers socialist organization in the US that is. I think of that cretinous ex-marine dude as much more representative of the worker mentality in America, than any with even a moderate level of social awareness having worked among American warehouse, factory and dock workers in my past life.

At the same time the "hipsters, clove-smoking, birkenstock" liberal is only a somewhat less “far out” contemporary version of the hippy.
 
May 23, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Interesting. Strange I guess that anyone would think that way.

Some 30+ years ago the "liberals" were often referred to as the working class. Everything from ironworkers, to loggers, to bricklayers, to textile weavers to firefighters. It's peculiar how the term has gone beyond a pejorative so many now interpret it to mean lazy hipsters wearing Birkenstocks smoking cloves and refusing to work.

As to the 53/47 percent argument, here's a very well written article in the St. Petersburg Times via Slate, clarifying how or why some 47% pay no federal taxes (but actually do). Worth a read.

part of the 47% are the dependents of the 53%.. the rw talk sh*t about those in their own household..
 
Jul 4, 2011
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Redtreviso, same could be said of some of the Wall Street protesters.
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Italy PM Silvio Berlusconi faces confidence vote

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is facing a key confidence vote in parliament amid questions over his handling of the economy and personal scandals.

Mr Berlusconi is expected to survive but the margin could be narrow.

Italy's government credit rating was recently downgraded and parliament failed to back a key part of the budget this week, triggering the vote.

Mr Berlusconi also faces trial on sex, bribery and abuse of power charges.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15302695

The vote takes place today I think.
 
ramjambunath said:
Redtreviso, same could be said of some of the Wall Street protesters.
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Italy PM Silvio Berlusconi faces confidence vote

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is facing a key confidence vote in parliament amid questions over his handling of the economy and personal scandals.

Mr Berlusconi is expected to survive but the margin could be narrow.

Italy's government credit rating was recently downgraded and parliament failed to back a key part of the budget this week, triggering the vote.

Mr Berlusconi also faces trial on sex, bribery and abuse of power charges.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15302695

The vote takes place today I think.


Berlusconi believes there is no alternative, but him, to govern the country, lest it fall in the hands of the communists. While his majority rely upon him to stay in power, especially the Lega. This is why the confidence vote will pass. It has been this way for 20 years. In the meantime the country has never been so split since the days of fascism between right and left, nor has it been so run through the mill since then in terms if international image and prestige as under il Cavaliere's populist regime.

He also practically owns the media and, unfortunately, there is a class of cynical and willy Italian that, if not identifies himself in Berlusconi, secretly wants to be like him and thus has cheerfully put up with his antics, his deplorably (and depressingly) embarrassing gaffes and bar room sense of humor.

Ironically Berlusconi and his supporters are continuously chalking up the voices of dissent and horror over his persona and all that it represents from his critics among the people of the left in this country, of which, thankfully, there are still many quite intelligent ones: to a form of self-flagellating envy. As if the people from the left in Italy could find anything to envy in the man. They would hate him, though, because deep down they really want to be like him.

The truth is that this is a perverse falsification of reality, to disguise the ones who truly envy Berlusconi: namely, his own supporters among the claque.

The other problem is that the minority coalition, now led by the rather uncharismatic and hapless Bersani and his Partito Democratico, has been quite pathetic in being divisive and hence weak, and so has indirectly kept Berlusconi in power for all these years, which has resulted in many among the left not finding that their side's political class in any way represents them. This has led to lower voter turnout, then say 20-30 years ago, in a country that has always taken its right to suffrage seriously. Of course, this too has helped the right stay in power for so long.

As a side note, there hasn't been a "threat" of the communists being voted into power since the 70's, when the partito comunista italiana was led by the eminently refined Enrico Berlinguer. This means that Berlusconi's obsession with the "communists" is totally passé and pathetically instrumental to his political agenda, which is always to vilify the left and make mostly old Italians of his generation (of which the country holds the world record I think) believe that the threat is still quite real when it is obviously not. Berlusconi who has thus always portrayed himself as eminently progressive and modern, is in fact quite old and outdated in his world view. And in all the bad ways. Like polished silverware that in fact merely masks something rather aged and decrepit that was just previously tarinshed.

The wild and stimulating, though often violent, epoch of ideologies in Italy, which caused the lead years of the 70's and early 80's, is over and has given way to the same type of vapid materialism among today's generation that is the product of globalization, the market and the EU following in the path of American capitalism, of which the "self made” business tycoon Berlusconi is a veritable political incarnation all'italiana.

There is, though, that other Italy, not the one of baseness, mendacity, depravity, indifference, populism, demagoguery, incompetence, corruption, conflict of interests, escorts, tasteless jokes and reeking materialism, but of profound culture (among the most cultured thinkers I have ever met) and social acumen, which in the post-ideological world of the market, however, finds that it has a much harder time making its voice heard.

I think, though, this is also taking place pretty much everywhere in the world. Culture and sobriety are being killed everywhere, by the sheer pornography of mass market, media and consumer driven, society.

But as it has been so often said: the peoples of democracy deserve the goverments they get.
 
May 23, 2010
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ramjambunath said:
Redtreviso, same could be said of some of the Wall Street protesters.
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Not really.. When the rw talks smack about people not paying taxes they are speaking of people of color or poor, but mainly that they are being put upon by that 47%,,,which ironically does include their wives and children in many cases.
Even if there was full 100% employment, all with excellent pay there would still be that idle percent that are off the tax grid.
 
Jul 4, 2011
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rhubroma said:
Berlusconi believes there is no alternative, but him, to govern the country, lest it fall in the hands of the communists. While his majority rely upon him to stay in power, especially the Lega. This is why the confidence vote will pass....

....The other problem is that the minority coalition, now led by the rather uncharismatic and hapless Bersani and his Partito Democratico, has been quite pathetic in being divisive and hence weak, and so has indirectly kept Berlusconi in power for all these years, which has resulted in many among the left not finding that their side's political class in any way represents them. This has led to lower voter turnout, then say 20-30 years ago, in a country that has always taken its right to suffrage seriously. Of course, this too has helped the right stay in power for so long......

Why though is there the problem within the opposition. It's not as if Berlusconi is purer than Caesar's wife even in the financial aspect of governance and not only his sex life as that would in most cases only mean a lack of personal integrity. So, couldn't they get real corruption (there must be some) and hammer away at that.

Drawing a parallel with Indian politics, in 2009 the opposition went all out attacking the PM for being a weak leader. The opposition was pretty much blanked in the General elections. Since, a few but massive corruption scandals broke out and the opposition latched onto this issue resulting at the moment to a loss in popularity of the govt (compared to 2009).
 
Jul 4, 2011
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Redtreviso
I don't think anyone explicitly called the 47% black or poor. I agree that it is absurd to say that none of the 47% are rich or all of the 47% are poor.

Don't get me wrong, I like to believe that I am a left centrist in India (where the most Right wing party in terms of economy is very left wing in the USA) and I certainly don't believe that the marine who wrote the letter lives a good life. If he won't complain about that then a testament to his patience and tolerance and one (and most certainly the Political class) certainly can't expect everyone to be following the same principles. Till the political class explicitly say the 47% is poor I personally think it's better to wait call them out.
 
ramjambunath said:
Why though is there the problem within the opposition. It's not as if Berlusconi is purer than Caesar's wife even in the financial aspect of governance and not only his sex life as that would in most cases only mean a lack of personal integrity. So, couldn't they get real corruption (there must be some) and hammer away at that.

Drawing a parallel with Indian politics, in 2009 the opposition went all out attacking the PM for being a weak leader. The opposition was pretty much blanked in the General elections. Since, a few but massive corruption scandals broke out and the opposition latched onto this issue resulting at the moment to a loss in popularity of the govt (compared to 2009).

Like I said, you wouldn't understand Italy. I am obviously being ironic here.

The judicial magistracy has been trying to incriminate Berlusconi for decades for his many crimes, however, his majority governments always save him with ad personem laws to get him off the hook, by things like shortening the statute of limitations in a judicial system that is notoriously a long-drawn-out and sluggish affair. This was even done to save one of his lawyers in what was coined the salva Previti ("save Previti"). Even when his English lawyer Mills was condemned in an British court for taking a bribe, Berlusconi has remained unfettered.

He has used his immense wealth to create political allies to defend him as well as his control over the Italian media to convince all the people that buy his newspapers and watch his TV news, that all the charges against him amount to a massive leftist ("communist") conspiracy against him.

This, of course, has been immensely frustrating and humiliating to so many of the good, civic minded citizens of Italy who read newspapers like la Repubblica which actually inform and do so exceptionally well.

Lastly all the sex scandals are hardly a big deal compared to his other serious business and political crimes. They merely add insult to injury, and is especially degrading to many dignified women in this country. However, for his fans and supporters (men and women alike), they are no more than the jolly and titillating pleasure of a macho septuagenarian "Italian playboy," who just loves the company of young beautiful women who still knows how to use his d!ck we can all be proud of.

Sorry, but I know next to nothing about contemporary Indian politics, which I should read up on, given that the nation is obviously such an emerging economic power.
 
May 23, 2010
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ramjambunath said:
Redtreviso
I don't think anyone explicitly called the 47% black or poor. I agree that it is absurd to say that none of the 47% are rich or all of the 47% are poor.

Don't get me wrong, I like to believe that I am a left centrist in India (where the most Right wing party in terms of economy is very left wing in the USA) and I certainly don't believe that the marine who wrote the letter lives a good life. If he won't complain about that then a testament to his patience and tolerance and one (and most certainly the Political class) certainly can't expect everyone to be following the same principles. Till the political class explicitly say the 47% is poor I personally think it's better to wait call them out.

Well.. here it is exactly how I said it..It is dogwhistling to the idiots..see 10586

""Go ahead, ask a blue collar conservative. They'll tell you that 90% of the tax they pay goes to "welfare" which translated means "my money given to black women with 14 kids by 14 different men."""
 
Sep 25, 2009
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cobblestones said:
In a sense, what you describe that Russia wants to restore its region of influence at least as far as the old Soviet Union, can be read in two ways.
my reading of russia’s geopolitical moves and goals as being aimed at re-creating its area of influence was based on the actual events of the last two decades. i’m not necessarily scared by nor enthusiastic with the prospect. my angle was simply to show that things have long moved past the point (which you absolutely properly highlighted) when the ‘800 pound gorilla’ could make a different choice. that point indeed existed and integration with europe was very much on the table. it was when the walls just fell, somewhere in the early 90’s, when the gorilla weighed only 40 pounds, was at it’s weakest in centuries and stood there almost naked ready for any strong hand to own it or, at the least, show it how to walk in the new strange world.

more then than now, the disjoint leaderless europe, was still looking up to america for its defence and therefore could not serve as neither a workable model nor a thoughtful tutor... not even as a reliable friend…all simply b/c europe’s cagy sponsor from across the Atlantic wouldn’t let it happen. americans themselves wanted to fill the void or, at least they thought they could. but what they really were after was huge economic appendage modelled upon itself. the design was not necessarily evil as similar experiments elsewhere resulted in real and lasting prosperity for those who unilaterally accepted american model, and most importantly, american patronage. don’t look further than post-ww2 japan and the marshal plan for europe…

and so it happened…
as russia hadn't have even the remotest idea of what a free market economy should look like, it got flooded by multiple thousands of american specialists in finance, commerce de-regulation, banking etc etc. to make the long story short, as we all know, eltsyn’s short flirting with the ‘american way’ ended in huge economic disaster. i’m far from blaming america, just stating the fact that it failed miserably…there were several reasons, all off-topic here, but the point i was trying to make is that after several iteration, russia chose it’s own way. she always has been, a proud, independent, autocratic, insecure, empire, sometimes benevolent, but always counting on its own riches, people and the power of intimidation, both within and outside its borders.


cobblestones said:
First of all, Russia does not want to isolate itself. For the better or worse, it is not running an entirely isolationistic course. So the political thought is present. On the other hand, one would hope that Russia is interested in good relations with its neighbors, and not simply try to create new vassal states.
like you, i’m an optimist and hopeful. but I am also a student of reality. to put it bluntly, imo, russia’s insecurity provoked by clearly unworkable and unnecessary things like american missile shield in europe, will eventually negate the initial sincere attempts at workable solutions. i’m afraid, things like that, will ruin the spirit of cooperation and healthy completion and may again unleash russia’s ruthless survival instincts.

and, to be perfectly honest, though we can understand them, pythons don’t trust bears:)
 
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