World Politics

Page 443 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
python said:
all valid points and questions.

i wish i had studied and understood the lybia's situation as much as i've done in other areas. then, i'd have the right to speculate reasonably as to your questions...

as it is, i'm quite ignorant about the middle east and north africa in general.

but i am plenty suspicious when i see an organization created to hold the red hordes in europe, goes out and bombs the crap out of the regime on another continent and calling the civilian casualties they caused a 'collateral' whilst defending the rights of those who have not yet become the collateral casualty.

i'm also very suspicious to the use of big words like 'democracy and freedom' when any rational assessment of the middle east's geopolitics points to a plain dog fight for economic spoils, mostly oil, between china and the west...

Yes, I never appreciated the invasion/ funding of rebels to topple a government, it was a very heinous move. A nationwide movement against a regime will always be successful if has enough voices of support for it. Of course each movement is different and this one had challenges that the Egyptian one never needed to face (defence forces turning against the country).

Secondly, how does NATO decide that one movement is to be supported because it's genuine (ala Libya) and the other not (Georgia and the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia). The answer is obvious, but dubious.
 
Apr 20, 2009
1,190
0
0
Scott SoCal said:
Don't hold your breath.

(i am only quoting the last thing you wrote because it is convenient.)

scott, while you appear to be correct in the rise of tax revenue to the government (i haven't read alpe's link) there is one problem with your analysis.

i remember from econ in university my professor explaining the very situation that you brought up: revenues go up when taxes go down. however, he was also careful to explain the economic situations where lowering the tax rate would fail to produce this outcome. one such situation is the very conditions that are affecting the US now. when the economy is contracting and interests rates are low, lowering tax rates exacerbates the situation because money still remains unproductive. it has almost nowhere to go to become productive. banks are not willing to take on risk and nor are companies willing to risk cash on hand without concomitant demand. this does not necessarily mean that raising income or payroll taxes would be the answer, but raising capital gains taxes would be a relatively safe way to actually increase tax revenue without risking productivity.

the take home point is, there are no one-size-fits-all answers that work all of the time in a chaotic system like a large economy. raising taxes isn't always bad, nor is it never good.
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
ramjambunath said:
Yes, I never appreciated the invasion/ funding of rebels to topple a government, it was a very heinous move. A nationwide movement against a regime will always be successful if has enough voices of support for it. Of course each movement is different and this one had challenges that the Egyptian one never needed to face (defence forces turning against the country).
funny, as soon as i finished typing admitting my ignorance about lybia (in my post response to yours) i decided to engage in the accelerated self-education path via google. guess what ? i came across this fascinating utube clip, where a former reagan gov't official lays it clear and strips of any bs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPmlUFAXvdU


Secondly, how does NATO decide that one movement is to be supported because it's genuine (ala Libya) and the other not (Georgia and the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia). The answer is obvious, but dubious.
let's put georgia and south osetia aside for a moment - though, i could provide some insights as that subject i actually studied extensively as it went down hill - let's instead ask, why is nato not bombing riyadh or kuwait to protect human rights there ? are those regimes more free and democratic ?
 
May 23, 2010
2,410
0
0
Scott SoCal said:
It just takes the ability to add. A fourth grader could do this. Yet it's beyond your grasp (moron).

As I've said before.. The subject wouldn't even be up for discussion if what you and the "drunk" tanks' say is true.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
python said:
funny, as soon as i finished typing admitting my ignorance about lybia (in my post response to yours) i decided to engage in the accelerated self-education path via google. guess what ? i came across this fascinating utube clip, where a former reagan gov't official lays it clear and strips of any bs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPmlUFAXvdU


let's put georgia and south osetia aside for a moment - though, i could provide some insights as that subject i actually studied extensively as it went down hill - let's instead ask, why is nato not bombing riyadh or kuwait to protect human rights there ? are those regimes more free and democratic ?

True, those are much better examples. Bahrain faced protests which were effectively quashed and the sectarian divide there is shocking.

Here's a decent read-
http://frontline.in/fl2807/stories/20110408280711600.htm

The author is a bit too anti west and some of the remarks he makes can be discounted but he makes some decent points.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
redtreviso said:
As I've said before.. The subject wouldn't even be up for discussion if what you and the "drunk" tanks' say is true.

No. The subject is up for discussion because you don't care about what the results show. It does not even matter to you because you don't really want our system to succeed.

You can't even articulate what you want. You are just pissed, always have been and always will be.
 
Jun 22, 2009
4,991
1
0
python said:
- let's instead ask, why is nato not bombing riyadh or kuwait to protect human rights there ? are those regimes more free and democratic ?


ramjambunath said:
True, those are much better examples. Bahrain faced protests which were effectively quashed and the sectarian divide there is shocking.

Guys, I really have to pull you up on these irrelevant examples. As reprehensible, despicable, and despotic as the regimes in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait may be (though there are significant differences between these two), neither of them have been turning the full power of their armed forces against their own citizens, who have also not been in open revolt in the streets. That is a very substantial difference with the situation that existed in Libya when the west decided that military action from outside was required to safeguard the lives of 'innocent civilians' (and when a unique opportunity to finally get rid of Gaddafi AND safeguard Libyan oil could not be passed up). Bahrain is/was indeed a shocking affair that exposes the hypocrisy and double standards of the west in dealing with revolts in this region. The recent sentencing of doctors and nurses was an outrage that attracted nothing like the protests that it should have done.

A much more pertinent question to ask is, 'what about Syria'? The cynical response might be that they don't have enough oil to bother with. But, when the west finally gets around to some symbolic gesture of protest after God knows how many civilians have been killed by Assad's troops, the Russians and Chinese veto it!:eek:

Go figure.....
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
Amsterhammer said:
Guys, I really have to pull you up on these irrelevant examples. As reprehensible, despicable, and despotic as the regimes in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait may be (though there are significant differences between these two), neither of them have been turning the full power of their armed forces against their own citizens, who have also not been in open revolt in the streets. That is a very substantial difference with the situation that existed in Libya when the west decided that military action from outside was required to safeguard the lives of 'innocent civilians' (and when a unique opportunity to finally get rid of Gaddafi AND safeguard Libyan oil could not be passed up). Bahrain is/was indeed a shocking affair that exposes the hypocrisy and double standards of the west in dealing with revolts in this region. The recent sentencing of doctors and nurses was an outrage that attracted nothing like the protests that it should have done.

A much more pertinent question to ask is, 'what about Syria'? The cynical response might be that they don't have enough oil to bother with. But, when the west finally gets around to some symbolic gesture of protest after God knows how many civilians have been killed by Assad's troops, the Russians and Chinese veto it!:eek:

Go figure.....

It wasn't used in SA or Kuwait but was definitely used to quash protests /riots in Bahrain.

You point out the 'double standards in dealing with revolts' and I think that it is because of NATO's geopolitical agenda that China and Russia vetoed the resolution. I really don't think the media's coverage is to be taken as gospel, as the Beeb proved in the past week with the Gilat Shalit.

But, yes Gaddafi turning the army against the people was deplorable.
 
python said:
all valid points and questions.

i wish i had studied and understood the lybia's situation as much as i've done in other areas. then, i'd have the right to speculate reasonably as to your questions...

as it is, i'm quite ignorant about the middle east and north africa in general.

but i am plenty suspicious when i see an organization created to hold the red hordes in europe, goes out and bombs the crap out of the regime on another continent and calling the civilian casualties they caused a 'collateral' whilst defending the rights of those who have not yet become the collateral casualty.

i'm also very suspicious to the use of big words like 'democracy and freedom' when any rational assessment of the middle east's geopolitics points to a plain dog fight for economic spoils, mostly oil, between china and the west...

I just got back from Fés in Morocco and I think that the current tug-of-war between the forces of tradition and those of modernity in North Africa have got a long way to go before any normalizing resolution is to be found.

There simply are places in the world that behave differently and we must face this fact. That can't be organized as we would like, however noble or ignoble our objectives may be.

That's what I like about history, though, is that it can't be packaged into nice and convenient little schemes. But is filled with uncertainties and surprises.
 
ramjambunath said:
It wasn't used in SA or Kuwait but was definitely used to quash protests /riots in Bahrain.

You point out the 'double standards in dealing with revolts' and I think that it is because of NATO's geopolitical agenda that China and Russia vetoed the resolution. I really don't think the media's coverage is to be taken as gospel, as the Beeb proved in the past week with the Gilat Shalit.

But, yes Gaddafi turning the army against the people was deplorable.

Ah, Gilat Shali, on of Rome's honorary citizens.

I'd like to know how the Israelis are dealing with one of their own who is calling for enduring peace between the two opositions?

Are they trying to de-brainwash him?

Good to know that he is safe and sound in any case.
 
gregod said:
the take home point is, there are no one-size-fits-all answers that work all of the time in a chaotic system like a large economy. raising taxes isn't always bad, nor is it never good.

Bingo. This is a very complex issue. I don't think there are any simple answers. Not even this tells the whole story:

Virtually every economics Ph.D. who has worked in a prominent role in the Bush Administration acknowledges that the tax cuts enacted during the past six years have not paid for themselves--and were never intended to. Harvard professor Greg Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisers from 2003 to 2005, even devotes a section of his best-selling economics textbook to debunking the claim that tax cuts increase revenues.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html#ixzz1bL0IO0lf

Why, then, does the right keep saying or implying that tax cuts do increase revenues? The short answer is because it depends on what you mean by revenues. If you mean, revenue as % of GDP, the evidence is overwhelming that tax cuts do not increase this; this is what economists, right as well as left, mean when they say tax cuts don’t pay for themselves. What may happen, though—and I think this is what Scott is hanging is hat on—is that tax rate cuts may result in stimulating growth which, given enough time, results in a substantially larger GDP. So much larger that even though revenues are less as a % of GDP, they are greater in absolute terms. But this is more complicated.

Consider a fairly long-term window. In the 1960s marginal tax rates on the wealthy were far higher than they are now, but revenue was greater than it is now (as % of GDP). In fact, there has been a dramatic overall decline in top marginal rates in the past fifty years (mostly because of major cuts by Kennedy, then Reagan), but revenue (again, as % of GDP) has actually changed very little over that entire time period, fluctuating at around 20%.

OTOH, absolute GDP has actually tripled or so during this period, so absolute revenue has also. But how much of this growth was the result of the lower tax rates, and how much the result of other factors? Nobody knows. There is far more to economic growth than the wealthy suddenly agreeing to invest because of tax savings. Some growth is expected just because of population increase, and it does not necessarily follow that is linear—that a 10% increase in population should result in 10% more growth. As population increases, the number of interactions among people may increase by a far larger degree, and this can result in a boom, particularly when certain technology emerges. Much of the growth of the 90s, for example, was driven by developments in high tech. It may have been facilitated by a certain economic climate, but it absolutely required advances in scientific research (much of it funded by the federal government), which came in their own good time.

Consider what came just before the 90s, the Reagan years. Reagan's initial tax cuts resulted in a spike in revenues. But revenue fell off dramatically not long after that. Then Reagan raised taxes, twice, but revenue increased somewhat. At the end of Reagan's two terms, revenue as % of GDP was lower than it was when he took office, but absolute revenue, again, was up, because the economy grew markedly during his eight years.

Most economists, I think, give Reagan’s policies at least some credit for that growth. Again, we really don’t know how much was the result of tax policies and how much the result of other factors. But even assuming his tax policies had a lot to do with the growth, the wealthy benefited far more from that growth than the poor or the middle class. Much of the increase in absolute GDP had no effect at all on the living standards of the middle class (to be fair, some did), and the poorest, I think most people agree, were worse off during that period.

Why were the poor worse off? A large part was due to some of Reagan's policies, but there is another key factor that highlights another problem with the tax cut/growth relationship. As GDP increases in absolute terms, the amount of personal wealth needed just to escape what is considered poverty also increases. A hundred years ago, someone without a refrigerator was not poor. Today, someone without a refrigerator is very poor. This is not just a matter of people today expecting more than people in the past. Society has been transformed to the point where everyone needs certain things to survive that they didn't need in the past. You have to be wealthier, in absolute terms, just to function.

In mixed economies, a major role of the government is to ensure that people keep up in this sense. So government spending will have to increase as GDP increases. Thus revenues as % of GDP--which I emphasize again, declined during the Reagan years, and also during the Bush years--is not something that we can ignore. Absolute GDP does not tell the whole story.

Edit: I might add, when considering Reagan's policies today, that those policies also resulted in an enormous increase in the deficit. That was far more politically acceptable then, obviously, than it is now.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
rhubroma said:
Ah, Gilat Shali, on of Rome's honorary citizens.

I'd like to know how the Israelis are dealing with one of their own who is calling for enduring peace between the two opositions?

Are they trying to de-brainwash him?

Good to know that he is safe and sound in any case.

Personally, I am pleased that he is safe and sound but the BBC were portraying the Palestinians a bit like mercenaries. I found that a bit galling.
 
Sep 10, 2009
5,663
0
0
Merckx index said:
Consider what came just before the 90s, the Reagan years. Reagan's initial tax cuts resulted in a spike in revenues. But revenue fell off dramatically not long after that. Then Reagan raised taxes, twice, but revenue increased somewhat. At the end of Reagan's two terms, revenue as % of GDP was lower than it was when he took office, but absolute revenue, again, was up, because the economy grew markedly during his eight years.

Most economists, I think, give Reagan’s policies at least some credit for that growth. Again, we really don’t know how much was the result of tax policies and how much the result of other factors. But even assuming his tax policies had a lot to do with the growth, the wealthy benefited far more from that growth than the poor or the middle class. Much of the increase in absolute GDP had no effect at all on the living standards of the middle class (to be fair, some did), and the poorest, I think most people agree, were worse off during that period.
Read a good summary of Reagan's tax policies the other day (though the article itself is a year old):

http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/08/news/economy/reagan_years_taxes/index.htm
 
Merckx index said:
Bingo. This is a very complex issue. I don't think there are any simple answers. Not even this tells the whole story:



http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html#ixzz1bL0IO0lf

Why, then, does the right keep saying or implying that tax cuts do increase revenues? The short answer is because it depends on what you mean by revenues. If you mean, revenue as % of GDP, the evidence is overwhelming that tax cuts do not increase this; this is what economists, right as well as left, mean when they say tax cuts don’t pay for themselves. What may happen, though—and I think this is what Scott is hanging is hat on—is that tax rate cuts may result in stimulating growth which, given enough time, results in a substantially larger GDP. So much larger that even though revenues are less as a % of GDP, they are greater in absolute terms. But this is more complicated.

Consider a fairly long-term window. In the 1960s marginal tax rates on the wealthy were far higher than they are now, but revenue was greater than it is now (as % of GDP). In fact, there has been a dramatic overall decline in top marginal rates in the past fifty years (mostly because of major cuts by Kennedy, then Reagan), but revenue (again, as % of GDP) has actually changed very little over that entire time period, fluctuating at around 20%.

OTOH, absolute GDP has actually tripled or so during this period, so absolute revenue has also. But how much of this growth was the result of the lower tax rates, and how much the result of other factors? Nobody knows. There is far more to economic growth than the wealthy suddenly agreeing to invest because of tax savings. Some growth is expected just because of population increase, and it does not necessarily follow that is linear—that a 10% increase in population should result in 10% more growth. As population increases, the number of interactions among people may increase by a far larger degree, and this can result in a boom, particularly when certain technology emerges. Much of the growth of the 90s, for example, was driven by developments in high tech. It may have been facilitated by a certain economic climate, but it absolutely required advances in scientific research (much of it funded by the federal government), which came in their own good time.

Consider what came just before the 90s, the Reagan years. Reagan's initial tax cuts resulted in a spike in revenues. But revenue fell off dramatically not long after that. Then Reagan raised taxes, twice, but revenue increased somewhat. At the end of Reagan's two terms, revenue as % of GDP was lower than it was when he took office, but absolute revenue, again, was up, because the economy grew markedly during his eight years.

Most economists, I think, give Reagan’s policies at least some credit for that growth. Again, we really don’t know how much was the result of tax policies and how much the result of other factors. But even assuming his tax policies had a lot to do with the growth, the wealthy benefited far more from that growth than the poor or the middle class. Much of the increase in absolute GDP had no effect at all on the living standards of the middle class, and the poorest, I think most people agree, were worse off during that period.

I think a key factor that is often overlooked is that as GDP increases in absolute terms, the amount of personal wealth needed just to escape what is considered poverty also increases. A hundred years ago, someone without a refrigerator was not poor. Today, someone without a refrigerator is very poor. This is not just a matter of people today expecting more than people in the past. Society has been transformed to the point where everyone needs certain things to survive that they didn't need in the past.

In mixed economies, a major role of the government is to ensure that people keep up in this sense. So government spending will have to increase as GDP increases. Thus revenues as % of GDP--which again, declined during the Reagan years, and also during the Bush years--is not something that we can ignore. Absolute GDP does not tell the whole story.

And this was my point. How much is economic growth actually dependent upon fiscal considerations and how much is due to demographic, global and industrial considerations? In short modernity.

Then, how much was due to using government spending in the private sector as economic fuel, which made the state a sort of grand allocator of funds for business. And with its money the American people (and not only) were guaranteed a lifestyle superior to their actual means.

And what use is a "substantialy larger GOP" if society becomes generally poorer?
 
May 23, 2010
2,410
0
0
Scott SoCal said:
No. The subject is up for discussion because you don't care about what the results show. It does not even matter to you because you don't really want our system to succeed.

You can't even articulate what you want. You are just pissed, always have been and always will be.

No really.. If the Bush tax cuts were not leaving a big hole OR were not VERY VERY beneficial to the rich and not something they would want to lose, then this would be a dead subject.. Your "evidence" suggests the rates are flat and make no difference.. Why the F does your w(hole) party fight almost exclusively for these tax cuts? Lastly I do not think it matters now..The big cheese 1% are all Greek.. "I just made a million dollars" when they made 30.
The Bush era enabled this. 3 percent more taxes on a mere fraction of what some people make is not redistributing anyone's wealth.
 
Merckx index said:
...

OTOH, absolute GDP has actually tripled or so during this period, so absolute revenue has also.
...

This is the interesting part. GDP tripled yet if growth slows down the whole economy is in trouble. So for the world to live in it's comfort zone the economy must grow indefinitely.

I may not be as good at math as some on this forum, but indefinite growth on a finite planet doesn't calculate. Something has to give, and my bet is that the planet goes first.
 
frenchfry said:
This is the interesting part. GDP tripled yet if growth slows down the whole economy is in trouble. So for the world to live in it's comfort zone the economy must grow indefinitely.

I may not be as good at math as some on this forum, but indefinite growth on a finite planet doesn't calculate. Something has to give, and my bet is that the planet goes first.

You don't need to be so good at math.
 
May 13, 2009
3,093
3
0
VeloCity said:
Looks like Herman Cain just committed political suicide.

Here I thought Cain did something really stupid such as having a Texas hunting camp called 'killwhitey" or maybe a memo from Godfather pizza mandating the employment of unlawful aliens.

Isn't it sad that his political suicide comes from taking an entirely reasonable position, coinciding with current law?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Merckx index said:
Bingo. This is a very complex issue. I don't think there are any simple answers. Not even this tells the whole story:



http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html#ixzz1bL0IO0lf

Why, then, does the right keep saying or implying that tax cuts do increase revenues? The short answer is because it depends on what you mean by revenues. If you mean, revenue as % of GDP, the evidence is overwhelming that tax cuts do not increase this; this is what economists, right as well as left, mean when they say tax cuts don’t pay for themselves. What may happen, though—and I think this is what Scott is hanging is hat on—is that tax rate cuts may result in stimulating growth which, given enough time, results in a substantially larger GDP. So much larger that even though revenues are less as a % of GDP, they are greater in absolute terms. But this is more complicated.

Consider a fairly long-term window. In the 1960s marginal tax rates on the wealthy were far higher than they are now, but revenue was greater than it is now (as % of GDP). In fact, there has been a dramatic overall decline in top marginal rates in the past fifty years (mostly because of major cuts by Kennedy, then Reagan), but revenue (again, as % of GDP) has actually changed very little over that entire time period, fluctuating at around 20%.

OTOH, absolute GDP has actually tripled or so during this period, so absolute revenue has also. But how much of this growth was the result of the lower tax rates, and how much the result of other factors? Nobody knows. There is far more to economic growth than the wealthy suddenly agreeing to invest because of tax savings. Some growth is expected just because of population increase, and it does not necessarily follow that is linear—that a 10% increase in population should result in 10% more growth. As population increases, the number of interactions among people may increase by a far larger degree, and this can result in a boom, particularly when certain technology emerges. Much of the growth of the 90s, for example, was driven by developments in high tech. It may have been facilitated by a certain economic climate, but it absolutely required advances in scientific research (much of it funded by the federal government), which came in their own good time.

Consider what came just before the 90s, the Reagan years. Reagan's initial tax cuts resulted in a spike in revenues. But revenue fell off dramatically not long after that. Then Reagan raised taxes, twice, but revenue increased somewhat. At the end of Reagan's two terms, revenue as % of GDP was lower than it was when he took office, but absolute revenue, again, was up, because the economy grew markedly during his eight years.

Most economists, I think, give Reagan’s policies at least some credit for that growth. Again, we really don’t know how much was the result of tax policies and how much the result of other factors. But even assuming his tax policies had a lot to do with the growth, the wealthy benefited far more from that growth than the poor or the middle class. Much of the increase in absolute GDP had no effect at all on the living standards of the middle class (to be fair, some did), and the poorest, I think most people agree, were worse off during that period.

Why were the poor worse off? A large part was due to some of Reagan's policies, but there is another key factor that highlights another problem with the tax cut/growth relationship. As GDP increases in absolute terms, the amount of personal wealth needed just to escape what is considered poverty also increases. A hundred years ago, someone without a refrigerator was not poor. Today, someone without a refrigerator is very poor. This is not just a matter of people today expecting more than people in the past. Society has been transformed to the point where everyone needs certain things to survive that they didn't need in the past. You have to be wealthier, in absolute terms, just to function.

In mixed economies, a major role of the government is to ensure that people keep up in this sense. So government spending will have to increase as GDP increases. Thus revenues as % of GDP--which I emphasize again, declined during the Reagan years, and also during the Bush years--is not something that we can ignore. Absolute GDP does not tell the whole story.

Edit: I might add, when considering Reagan's policies today, that those policies also resulted in an enormous increase in the deficit. That was far more politically acceptable then, obviously, than it is now.

and I think this is what Scott is hanging is hat on

That's part of it, but it's actually simpler than that.

The Bush years (on the left) VERSUS The Clinton years (on the right)

.........Top (AGI) 1% ............% of income paid ............Top (AGI) 1%......
2001......292,913..................33.89 * 29.01..............185,715......1993
2002......285,424..................33.71 * 28.86..............195,726......1994
2003......295,495..................34.27 * 30.26..............209,406......1995
2004......328,049.... .............36.89 * 32.31..............227,546......1996
2005......364,657..................39.38 * 33.17..............250,736......1997
2006......388,806..................39.89 * 34.75..............269,496......1998
2007......410,096..................40.42 * 36.18..............293,415......1999
2008......380,354..................38.02 * 37.42..............313,469......2000

The above is from the IRS. It's public information posted on their website.

Clinton was able to get his tax plan passed in 1993 and if I remember correctly it was retro-active to 1/1/1993.

So, all we have to do here is math. The most striking number is, during the Bush years, top marginal incomes were up (economy expansion... lots of things could explain this) BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, the total percentage of income paid in taxes was ALSO HIGHER WITH A LOWER TOP RATE. The average is more than 4% of their income paid in tax during the Bush years compared with Clinton's.

That speaks to behavior, not expansion. Meaning, there is a point where people will hire tax attorneys to find the gaps in the tax code. There is also a point where they will just pay their taxes.

Now, I'm not saying any other thing except this is reality. If politicians want to discount this reality then that's fine but the results will never follow the estimates (and they never have).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.