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Laszlo said:
I'd be careful including NASA astronauts some of them seemed to have returned without the "a"....global warming may be a statistical anomaly or a result of any other thing, not necessarily carbon emissions; still, because we are not certain should we continue an unrestrained dumping into the atmosphere ? and what if then we realize, too late, that it is real and beyond our ability to fix ? what then ? I think the risk far outweighs the "reward" don't you ?

Read the full file and you will find 700+ scientists who are skeptics. The astronaut's quote was there along with many others some folks won't agree with.

It appears the the deniers are showing some backbone;

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100018003/climategate-five-aussie-mps-lead-the-way-by-resigning-in-disgust-over-carbon-tax/

Here is why people are concerned;

• Utility Rates and Utility Bills – Energy cost impacts consider the combined effect of
changes in the prices of the fundamental energy commodities and the added cost of
limiting carbon emissions. In the case of electricity and natural gas supplied through
companies regulated by utility commissions, free allowance allocations will mitigate
some of the total cost borne by retail customers. ACESA provides free allocations to
such local distribution companies, but requires that the full cost of carbon still be
reflected in the rates per unit of energy each customer uses. Relative to energy
costs in the Annual Energy Outlook (AEO) 2009 Baseline level, retail natural gas
rates would rise by an estimated 10% ($1.20 per MMBtu) in 2015, by 16% ($2.30 per
MMBtu) in 2030, and by 34% ($5.40 per MMBtu) in 2050. Retail electricity rates are
estimated to increase by 7.3% (1.1 cents per kWh) relative to baseline levels in 2015,
by 22% (2.8 cents per kWh) in 2030 and by 45% (6.1 cents per kWh) in 2050. To the
extent that utilities return the value of their free allocations under ACESA to
customers through reductions in fixed charges, actual total bills for electricity and
natural gas will not rise as much as the rates. Total utility bills may even decline in
the first years of the policy if there is also substantial investment in end-use efficiency
and/or conservation in response to the higher energy rates. We estimate that given
the allocations in ACESA, average U.S. electricity utility bills would decline by about
0.5% in 2015, and then rise by about 4% to 5% in the 2020 to 2025 time period.
Post-2025, as the allocations are phased out bills would rise more dramatically. We
estimate that given the allocations in ACESA, average U.S. natural gas utility bills
would increase by about 2.5% in 2015, and then rise by about 5% to 6% in the 2020
to 2025 time period, then rise more dramatically as the allocations are phased out.
• Transportation Fuel Costs - After an estimated 12 cents per gallon increase in 2015,
costs of using motor fuels are estimated to increase by 5% (23 cents per gallon) in
2030 and increase by 11% (59 cents per gallon) in 2050, relative to baseline levels.
These cost impacts consider the combined effect of changes in the market prices of
the fundamental energy commodities, the added cost of limiting carbon emissions,
and projected shifts towards a lower-carbon mix of energy sources used to fuel the
average vehicle.
• Employment – A net reduction in U.S. employment of 2.3 million to 2.7 million jobs in
each year of the policy through 2030. These reductions are net of substantial gains
in “green jobs.” While all regions of the country would be adversely impacted, the
West, Oklahoma/Texas and the Mississippi Valley regions would be
disproportionately affected.
• Wages – Declines in workers’ wages will become more severe with time. The
earnings of an average worker who remains employed would be approximately $170
less by 2015, $390 less by 2030, and $960 less by 2050, relative to baseline levels.
• Household Purchasing Power - The average American household’s annual
purchasing power is estimated to decline relative to the no carbon policy case by
$730 in 2015, by $830 in 2030, and by $940 in 2050. These changes are calculated
against 2010 income levels (the median U.S. household income in 2007 is
approximately $50,000). They would be larger if stated against projected future
baseline income levels.
• Overall Economic Activity - In 2015, gross domestic product (GDP), a commonlyused
measure of total economic activity, is estimated to be 1.0% ($170 billon) below
the baseline level driven principally by declining consumption. In 2030, GDP is
estimated to be roughly 1.3% ($350 billon) below the baseline level. In 2050, GDP is
estimated to be roughly 1.5% ($730 billon) below the baseline level.

• Green jobs versus effects on total employment - Despite the promise of green jobs,
ACESA would, if enacted, inevitably depress total employment from baseline levels.
The bill would divert resources now used to produce additional goods and services
into the work of obtaining energy from sources that are more costly than fossil fuels.
It would, therefore, lower the sum of goods and services produced by the economy
and hence the output per unit of labor. Worker compensation will decline asproductivity falls. Although part of the decline in total compensation will show up as a
decrease in earnings per worker, many factors inhibit decreases in average
compensation. Another result of lowered productivity is likely, therefore, to appear in
the form of lower employment levels.


http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=8230a041-2d13-4812-b5ed-ea9b2965faa0



If this the co2 hysteria is even patially based on science that is dubious why as a nation are we so willing to put the hurt on our economy?
 
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Scott,
All I would suggest is that you read some in depth sources that are not from a Sentate MINORITY report, Fox News, etc. I am not disputing that there is some dissension among some scientists. However, I would also suggest that the great majority of scientists who are examining the issue agree that there is some causal affect from CO2. It might benefit you to read what they are saying and at least consider that they might be right. All I have seen posts from one side of the issue.

What if the scientists who believe our CO2 contribution is affecting the plants climate are right? Please also note that the right is still primarily the group using "Global Warming."(yes there is a propaganda reason for that) "Climate Change" is what it is called, and contrary to right winged propaganda, the shift was not about temperature data.

I also recognize that this is not the first recorded example of climate change. I also note that there is no conclusive proof that human generated CO2 is the only cause. I also recognize that much of the real opposition is about American corporations not wanting countries like China to have an unfair competitive advantage because they refuse to sign on to measures that would cost their corporations money in implementation. The opposition really is about economics. The other side is about ecology. You cannot always discount ecological considerations because large corporations say you should.
 
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Also note that anything scientific promoted or denied by a group of people who deny evolution should be viewed with a great amount of skepticism. If you cannot accept one of the most basic premises of all scientific thought, then I have to question your data. (not you personally)
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
Scott,
All I would suggest is that you read some in depth sources that are not from a Sentate MINORITY report, Fox News, etc. I am not disputing that there is some dissension among some scientists. However, I would also suggest that the great majority of scientists who are examining the issue agree that there is some causal affect from CO2. It might benefit you to read what they are saying and at least consider that they might be right. All I have seen posts from one side of the issue.

What if the scientists who believe our CO2 contribution is affecting the plants climate are right? Please also note that the right is still primarily the group using "Global Warming."(yes there is a propaganda reason for that) "Climate Change" is what it is called, and contrary to right winged propaganda, the shift was not about temperature data.

I also recognize that this is not the first recorded example of climate change. I also note that there is no conclusive proof that human generated CO2 is the only cause. I also recognize that much of the real opposition is about American corporations not wanting countries like China to have an unfair competitive advantage because they refuse to sign on to measures that would cost their corporations money in implementation. The opposition really is about economics. The other side is about ecology. You cannot always discount ecological considerations because large corporations say you should.

Terminology was changed for propaganda reasons. The earth is not warming at the moment so it makes it easier to say "climate change" and keep a straight face.

Big corporations are run by people who have families and depend on clean air and water like everyone else. Big corporations will adapt just with fewer employees.

The proposed solutions will result in higher costs for everything... literally. This will hurt the very people the left claim to champion far more than any other group, AND will do nothing to help "climate change" unless China and India get on board, AND the science very well could be wrong.
 
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Scott SoCal said:
Terminology was changed for propaganda reasons. The earth is not warming at the moment so it makes it easier to say "climate change" and keep a straight face.

Big corporations are run by people who have families and depend on clean air and water like everyone else. Big corporations will adapt just with fewer employees.

The proposed solutions will result in higher costs for everything... literally. This will hurt the very people the left claim to champion far more than any other group, AND will do nothing to help "climate change" unless China and India get on board, AND the science very well could be wrong.

No, it wasn't.

Again, the scientists (who are not left winged automatons as suggested by the right) who believe this are not politicians. The group attacking them are many of the same people who dislike them because they believe in that heresy evolution. I think the logical thing is to err towards the majority scientific opinion at this point, and that point is not that the phenomenon is a fabrication.

Also, look at the money that is funding the people who deny it and tell me there is no corporate interest.
 
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Scott SoCal said:
Terminology was changed for propaganda reasons. The earth is not warming at the moment so it makes it easier to say "climate change" and keep a straight face.

Big corporations are run by people who have families and depend on clean air and water like everyone else. Big corporations will adapt just with fewer employees.

The proposed solutions will result in higher costs for everything... literally. This will hurt the very people the left claim to champion far more than any other group, AND will do nothing to help "climate change" unless China and India get on board, AND the science very well could be wrong.

I wonder why this is a concern to Republicans...
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
No, it wasn't.

Again, the scientists (who are not left winged automatons as suggested by the right) who believe this are not politicians. The group attacking them are many of the same people who dislike them because they believe in that heresy evolution. I think the logical thing is to err towards the majority scientific opinion at this point, and that point is not that the phenomenon is a fabrication.

Also, look at the money that is funding the people who deny it and tell me there is no corporate interest.

Do you think there is money involved for corporations in promoting the idea of "climate change"?
 
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CentralCaliBike said:
Do you think there is money involved for corporations in promoting the idea of "climate change"?

If you are suggesting that the burgeoning corporate entities dealing with climate change solutions are as powerful or established as those already entrenched who are against the economic penalty of their dealing with it, then you are being disingenuous.

Your side has a minority of the scientists actually studying the phenomenon who profess their complete disregard for it. All I am suggesting is that the theory that a massive conspiracy by most scientists studying the issue is unlikely the culprit. Most likely, the science suggests that there is a link, and they are continuing to study climate change. They have said that if the data they have collected is correct (not just temperature data), then acting when there is proof may be too late. The problem is, you read what right winged groups say they say, not what they say. Don't listen to Al Gore, read what the scientists who do believe there is a link are saying. Or is the fact that they believe in evolution keeping you from that?
 
Jul 22, 2009
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I don't think much about the cap and trade idea myself- I am hardly in a position of wealth or power- but I do think the States and much of the industrialized world that is currently in an economic crisis of one sort or another is missing the boat that reducing carbon emmisions could mean; that is a lot of green jobs investing in alternative renewable energy sources. Solar farms, wind farms, tidal wave action. geothermal...it's all there in abundance and it is clean and free. The US, Canada and much of europe has large unemployment, numerous engineers are engaged in other lines of work with the downturn, there is a real malaise and a threat to the health and well-being of future generations. Oil is limited supply, why waste this opportunity now than to end up fighting for the last few barrels when the wells run dry? I would not be surprised if big oil was behind the email-hack. When the States gives so many $billions to the banks, why not give a little bit of that to the unemployed, the environment and the future by investing in developing clean power ? I think the oil lobbyists ( among other lobbyists) have their sick hands around Washington DC's throat. Look at what oil has done to foriegn policy, wouldn't it be a lifting of a curse to cast off that reliance ? I see so many reasons why we should invest in clean energy- and maintaining the status quo is just one more reason not to.

Hope and change was the mantra that got Obama elected- I believe that people still want that change- and the only way to achieve it is to just start doing it.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
If you are suggesting that the burgeoning corporate entities dealing with climate change solutions are as powerful or established as those already entrenched who are against the economic penalty of their dealing with it, then you are being disingenuous.

Your side has a minority of the scientists actually studying the phenomenon who profess their complete disregard for it. All I am suggesting is that the theory that a massive conspiracy by most scientists studying the issue is unlikely the culprit. Most likely, the science suggests that there is a link, and they are continuing to study climate change. They have said that if the data they have collected is correct (not just temperature data), then acting when there is proof may be too late. The problem is, you read what right winged groups say they say, not what they say. Don't listen to Al Gore, read what the scientists who do believe there is a link are saying. Or is the fact that they believe in evolution keeping you from that?

IT appears that some of the larger companies have a vested interest in "going green"

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2009/07/bio-oil-bets-on-biofuels

and

http://www.newsweek.com/id/215758
 
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CentralCaliBike said:
IT appears that some of the larger companies have a vested interest in "going green"

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2009/07/bio-oil-bets-on-biofuels

and

http://www.newsweek.com/id/215758

http://www.kochind.com/

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Koch_Industries

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/07/30/oil-funding-everyone/

You wanna play the tit for tat game really? Cause your gonna lose this one pretty badly. Look, I will concede that the science is nowhere near proving the link with CO2. However, the data does suggest a causal relationship, and is still being studied. So you take the scientist conspiracy theory, and I will ask you to then tell me why single largest company in the US is funding anti-climate change activities. I am pretty sure there is a bottom line thingie in there somewhere. Sorry, you can use propaganda on some people, but it won't work on me.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
You wanna play the tit for tat game really? Cause your gonna lose this one pretty badly. Look, I will concede that the science is nowhere near proving the link with CO2. However, the data does suggest a causal relationship, and is still being studied. So you take the scientist conspiracy theory, and I will ask you to then tell me why single largest company in the US is funding anti-climate change activities. I am pretty sure there is a bottom line thingie in there somewhere. Sorry, you can use propaganda on some people, but it won't work on me.

"Originally Posted by Thoughtforfood View Post
"No, it wasn't.

"Again, the scientists (who are not left winged automatons as suggested by the right) who believe this are not politicians. The group attacking them are many of the same people who dislike them because they believe in that heresy evolution. I think the logical thing is to err towards the majority scientific opinion at this point, and that point is not that the phenomenon is a fabrication.

"Also, look at the money that is funding the people who deny it and tell me there is no corporate interest."


My original link was directed at your suggestion that "climate change" is being opposed based on corporate interests.

t appears that big oil is getting into "green renewables" in an attempt to maintain a profit margin; acknowledging that oil is not forever, is getting more expensive, and you can sell green at a higher price to people who want to think of themselves as responsible citizens. In any event - your previous statements that the corporations cannot be trusted and are the main corrupting influence on politics leaves the conclusion that they may have a reason to support "climate change" theory for profit.
 
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CentralCaliBike said:

"Originally Posted by Thoughtforfood View Post
"No, it wasn't.

"Again, the scientists (who are not left winged automatons as suggested by the right) who believe this are not politicians. The group attacking them are many of the same people who dislike them because they believe in that heresy evolution. I think the logical thing is to err towards the majority scientific opinion at this point, and that point is not that the phenomenon is a fabrication.

"Also, look at the money that is funding the people who deny it and tell me there is no corporate interest."


My original link was directed at your suggestion that "climate change" is being opposed based on corporate interests.

t appears that big oil is getting into "green renewables" in an attempt to maintain a profit margin; acknowledging that oil is not forever, is getting more expensive, and you can sell green at a higher price to people who want to think of themselves as responsible citizens. In any event - your previous statements that the corporations cannot be trusted and are the main corrupting influence on politics leaves the conclusion that they may have a reason to support "climate change" theory for profit.

Then why is the largest of them not? Funny, I wonder if you looked into what their money is all tied up in? http://www.kochind.com/IndustryAreas/default.asp

Also answer me this, why the opposition based on China and India not signing on? I'll give you a two word hint: Competitive advantage.

Again, propaganda and obfuscation won't work on me. See, I can read the articles you posted, and the impetus for movement into the green economy has little to nothing to do with climate change...or am I missing the point of our discussion? (and no, positioning yourself for a better placing in the carbon offset exchange does not qualify in buying into the climate change problem.) Again, you seem to be purposefully disingenuous about your own references.

Do me a favor, actually read my references. I read yours.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
Then why is the largest of them not? Funny, I wonder if you looked into what their money is all tied up in? http://www.kochind.com/IndustryAreas/default.asp

Also answer me this, why the opposition based on China and India not signing on? I'll give you a two word hint: Competitive advantage.

Again, propaganda and obfuscation won't work on me. See, I can read the articles you posted, and the impetus for movement into the green economy has little to nothing to do with climate change...or am I missing the point of our discussion? (and no, positioning yourself for a better placing in the carbon offset exchange does not qualify in buying into the climate change problem.) Again, you seem to be purposefully disingenuous about your own references.

Do me a favor, actually read my references. I read yours.

I did read your references, but the problem is that I am not suggesting that the large companies are buying into climate change (warming caused by Co2) and I do agree that they have concern about competitive advantage. However, none of the above would prevent a large company from attempting to make a profit from climate change hysteria.
 
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CentralCaliBike said:
I did read your references, but the problem is that I am not suggesting that the large companies are buying into climate change (warming caused by Co2) and I do agree that they have concern about competitive advantage. However, none of the above would prevent a large company from attempting to make a profit from climate change hysteria.

No, you are absolutely correct on that point. My point to that is that I do not believe that most of the scientists working on trying to figure out what if any influence human produced CO2 emissions are motivated primarily by corporate interest in a green economy.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
No, you are absolutely correct on that point. My point to that is that I do not believe that most of the scientists working on trying to figure out what if any influence human produced CO2 emissions are motivated primarily by corporate interest in a green economy.

I can agree there - but I do think they got an impression of global warming, had a great deal of concern, enjoyed the interest of non-scientists (and the grant funding that went along with it), got concerned a little when the numbers did not continue as expected, and egotistically attempted to shut down those opposed to their point of view.
 
In reading the various posts concerning the above discussed issues/arguments, a certain sense of uneasiness begins to take over. And it is an uneasiness over the perception that every facet of our existence (health, the climate, society, culture, and probably even sex too, etc.) and more explicitly all political discorse, essentially seems to boil down to an economic analysis. As if the only way to conceptualize life is through the cold checks and balances, the profit advantages and disadvantages, production costs vs. labor, etc. of a rigorously orchestrated business. The problem I have with such an analysis is that, apart from an actual business itself, none of the above mentioned categories should be reduced to the criteria of a business. For health is not a business, neither is the evironment, nor of course is culture - how low we have stooped in the Western World with a McDonald's planned for the Louvre! Nothing against, mind you, an honest company with its office managers, secretaries and production force that pays its taxes and hopefully its workers benifits too which is a respectable thing, however, life isn't a business.

With all the impact upon our lives from the corporate world and the financial markets, perhaps pretty soon, in the not so distant future, we may actually come to hate that business. Poor ol' business.
 
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rhubroma said:
With all the impact upon our lives from the corporate world and the financial markets, perhaps pretty soon, in the not so distant future, we may actually come to hate that business. Poor ol' business.

Most people already have a great deal of hatred and distrust and, I am sure when the economy sinks further that number will grow (along with the animosity). However, 99% in this country could not live life without the products that are produced, transported, and sold by big business. The industrial age ushered in the age of business making us far less dependent. Personally, I am not sure I want to go back to a time of complete self sufficiency since I do not like caves, limited to no food, and the skins of whatever animal is slow of enough for me to catch.
 
CentralCaliBike said:
Most people already have a great deal of hatred and distrust and, I am sure when the economy sinks further that number will grow (along with the animosity). However, 99% in this country could not live life without the products that are produced, transported, and sold by big business. The industrial age ushered in the age of business making us far less dependent. Personally, I am not sure I want to go back to a time of complete self sufficiency since I do not like caves, limited to no food, and the skins of whatever animal is slow of enough for me to catch.

We're riding on different and mutually exclusive tracks...
 
Jul 23, 2009
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rhubroma said:
We're riding on different and mutually exclusive tracks...

As far as the ideal, perhaps - but I am willing to bet you and I have a similar amount of dependence on big business, starting with the bike - if you do not have a major brand, at least the components and frame materials were provided by big business. Then the bike was delivered via big business, and you most likely ride on roads that were paved by big business.

I am not stating that I find BB to be people friendly, but I do understand that it makes a difference in my life as it does most others.
 
CentralCaliBike said:
As far as the ideal, perhaps - but I am willing to bet you and I have a similar amount of dependence on big business, starting with the bike - if you do not have a major brand, at least the components and frame materials were provided by big business. Then the bike was delivered via big business, and you most likely ride on roads that were paved by big business.

I am not stating that I find BB to be people friendly, but I do understand that it makes a difference in my life as it does most others.

The key is in giving things their proper measure. Civilization has become subordinate to big business, whereas the exact opposite should be the case.
 
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rhubroma said:
The key is in giving things their proper measure. Civilization has become subordinate to big business, whereas the exact opposite should be the case.

Today big business both pays for, and provides the means of, civilization.
 
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CentralCaliBike said:
Today big business both pays for, and provides the means of, civilization.

The question is whether it is a civilization worth living in?
 
Jul 22, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
Today big business both pays for, and provides the means of, civilization.

it's the other way around.

WE pay, and they (the few ceos, cfo, execs ) live in mansions do minimal work worth questionable value and get multi-million $ bonuses ( even while running the company into the ground)
 
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Laszlo said:
it's the other way around.

WE pay, and they (the few ceos, cfo, execs ) live in mansions do minimal work worth questionable value and get multi-million $ bonuses ( even while running the company into the ground)

True enough when the government gets into corporate welfare.
 
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