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Apr 12, 2009
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Don't make this a US vs Russia boxing match please.
Let's just agree neither of them is a role model. Instead try thinking on valid alternatives.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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del1962 said:
Strange one from the Russians, if you euro's don't stop criticing us we are going to repress our own people more, they have the man to do it in the former KGB man Putin, I expect he is looking for those Gulag plans, he needs somewhere to transport the "Ukranian troublemakers" to.

....or maybe he could lease some space at Guantanamo?....and given the recent Senate report we know its an accredited torture-centric spa for "troublemakers" so it could be a win win for everybody...watcha think ?...

Cheers
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Buffalo Soldier said:
Don't make this a US vs Russia boxing max please.
Let's just agree neither of them is a role model. Instead try thinking on valid alternatives.

Socialism how Allende started it, how we had it in western germany (social market economy), how Chavez tried it (the next country occupied soon by the US imperialists; they already started), how Morales might succeed...
Basically the opposite of what USA is doing, and what their phuckers implemented world wide (inclusive in Russia under Jelzin).

And no, I don´t mean comunism a la Stalin, before some super intelligent poster might try to twist my words...
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Buffalo Soldier said:
Don't make this a US vs Russia boxing max please.
Let's just agree neither of them is a role model. Instead try thinking on valid alternatives.

...I always liked the old tried and true "Cowboys and Communists" bed-time story...is that what you mean...?...

Cheers
 
Apr 12, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Socialism how Allende started it, how we had it in western germany (social market economy), how Chavez tried it (the next country occupied soon by the US imperialists; they already started), how Morales might succeed...
Basically the opposite of what USA is doing, and what their phuckers implemented world wide (inclusive in Russia under Jelzin).

And no, I don´t mean comunism a la Stalin, before some super intelligent poster might try to twist my words...
I don’t like thinking in this old fashioned –isms (causing, like you point out, people confusion Marxism with Stalinism, placing conservatism against liberalism, tagging ideas as ‘left’ or ‘right’ without having the faintest idea of what this means)

I agree Morales is on a right track, although of course for developing countries the situation is different than for countries that already have the power. With this I mean for their (power countries) own internal political strategy, since they are obviously connected to developing countries in how they exploit their power. The Washington Consensus thinking has smothered all possible development since WWII (except for the countries who were able to place themselves outside of the system), whatever –ism is in charge in developing countries, it is up to power countries to make developing possible. Stop protecting the own market, but let developing economies plan and protect. Stop the pure growth thinking, replace it with wellbeing thinking. The economy is not the world, no matter how much all politicians keep repeating that to themselves.

If you would ask me on how power economies should restructure their internal politics, I’m afraid you have to let go the old isms. I believe in free markets, as long as you realize they are a fiction, I believe in open source thinking as a valid alternative for communistic state planned equality, I believe in strong states in order to stop the invisible hand in further widen the gap between the lucky and the poor, and most of all I believe in the need for political ‘globalization’: it is a delusion to think that there is a way back in globalization of private economy, they only way to steer it is in avoiding international hypercompetition which can only be obtained of course by international cooperation. This cooperation could happen privately, but has to be followed politically. The only form this existing atm, is through the UN, which is far from ideal (since they lack power and are obviously not free from power relations).
Fighting pollution & inequality (the two main problems in the world), are simply impossible without stronger political cooperation.
I also believe in a new International as a first way in moving forward, (although myself I am not at all into politics)
 
Aug 9, 2012
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Interesting situation going on in Ukraine.

The video in this link shows the method of operations by the Russians:
http://fotografmariasoderberg.blogspot.se/2014/04/12-april-2014-uppror-i-kramatorsk-utan.html

Some of the dialogue is translated to Swedish. It's basicly pointing out the lack of willingness to engage in dialogue by the armed men when the police chief tries to talk to them.

Anyway the interesting part is how effectively and professionally they secure the building. I'm not sure if they are shooting at something or just in the air, I'm assuming in the air to scare away the unarmed cops and civilians. Probably had enough of all the chatter.

Then there is some shooting into the building. Probably to scare anyone inside and to avert any ambush. Then they appear to set up to clear the building. The video looks like it was cut at this point, and from their stances they appear to be covering the inside and an ingress area now. Cue what I assume is an unhappy local being ushered a ay with a man in civilian clothing with a pistol. Another cut(at 3:32), and now it looks like the extras are coming, after the area has been secured. Some guy tries to kick after them(hmm). Quickly the extras are in sufficient number to constitute a crowd, and now the cameras can show a fall of Bagdad moment. No statue here so it's the Ukrainian flags that are being removed. This is much lower budget than the US version of course.

Notice the soldiers protecting the men and keeping the public away. One could get the idea they aren't welcome.;) Looks like another cut at 4:26. Some shooting happens and it seems everyone joins in with covering fire. As the camera person takes cover I hear a sound which could potentially be from a Machine Gun(PKM could be assumed).

So we got a combat Unit escorting the extras for what looks like a camera op for a "protester" takeover.


So who are the Armed men?

Looking at the pic in this thread of them, they are armed with Russian issue AK-74m's. Don't think Ukraine has moved beyond the ak-74, and they are likely not from the local police. They would have older hand me downs like aks-74U's or perhaps standard issue ak-74s or aks-74's.

So they are likely from Russian official sources. My guess is that they are organized and trained by the GRU/SVR, with perhaps some operatives among them. Standard fifth column operation.

The Russians could have made it more convincing by perhaps making them look a bit more ragtag, but for their purposes they don't have to be more convincing. They are only needed to fool Russian TV viewers. And they obviously trust their media and think it's alright to be fooled in the public interest:
http://www.tol.org/client/article/24244-lie-to-me.html

So those who watch Russian media will likely have a view of reality that is foreign to most people, and will often view the non Russian press as western propaganda. Thats why it's a bit risky for non Russian journalists in some areas of eastern Ukraine.


What worries me is that these kinds of operations are supposed to be started as a prelude to invasion or something. In Crimea, these units were the men who took over official buildings before the regular Russian troops arrived to reinforce them.

It could be Putin is waiting for some kind of excuse to go in. Perhaps hoping for the Ukrainians to go all in so he can sell it to the Russian public that they are intervening to stop a civil war or something. The 12x flyover of the US Destroyer could seem like some kind of provocation. But apparently the Ship could tell the Fencer was unarmed. Had they not known that plane would have been shot down.

Interestingly It seems that the majority of these building takeovers etc. are happening in Donetsk Oblast. That's were Janukovitsj is from, and apparently all of the ministers in his government IIRC.


Ps.: Seems like Lukashenko(Belarus) recognizes Turchynov(acting president) as legitimate leader of Ukraine. Very interesting that he is not towing Putins line on this.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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ToreBear said:
The video in this link shows the method of operations by the Russians:
http://fotografmariasoderberg.blogspot.se/2014/04/12-april-2014-uppror-i-kramatorsk-utan.html

Some of the dialogue is translated to Swedish. It's basicly pointing out the lack of willingness to engage in dialogue by the armed men when the police chief tries to talk to them.

Anyway the interesting part is how effectively and professionally they secure the building. I'm not sure if they are shooting at something or just in the air, I'm assuming in the air to scare away the unarmed cops and civilians. Probably had enough of all the chatter.

Then there is some shooting into the building. Probably to scare anyone inside and to avert any ambush. Then they appear to set up to clear the building. The video looks like it was cut at this point, and from their stances they appear to be covering the inside and an ingress area now. Cue what I assume is an unhappy local being ushered a ay with a man in civilian clothing with a pistol. Another cut(at 3:32), and now it looks like the extras are coming, after the area has been secured. Some guy tries to kick after them(hmm). Quickly the extras are in sufficient number to constitute a crowd, and now the cameras can show a fall of Bagdad moment. No statue here so it's the Ukrainian flags that are being removed. This is much lower budget than the US version of course.

Notice the soldiers protecting the men and keeping the public away. One could get the idea they aren't welcome.;) Looks like another cut at 4:26. Some shooting happens and it seems everyone joins in with covering fire. As the camera person takes cover I hear a sound which could potentially be from a Machine Gun(PKM could be assumed).

So we got a combat Unit escorting the extras for what looks like a camera op for a "protester" takeover.


So who are the Armed men?

Looking at the pic in this thread of them, they are armed with Russian issue AK-74m's. Don't think Ukraine has moved beyond the ak-74, and they are likely not from the local police. They would have older hand me downs like aks-74U's or perhaps standard issue ak-74s or aks-74's.

So they are likely from Russian official sources. My guess is that they are organized and trained by the GRU/SVR, with perhaps some operatives among them. Standard fifth column operation.

The Russians could have made it more convincing by perhaps making them look a bit more ragtag, but for their purposes they don't have to be more convincing. They are only needed to fool Russian TV viewers. And they obviously trust their media

...yeah that is just a scene from the ongoing production of Vylyaty Sobakoyu ...nothing unusual really...though its easier to understand if you know the story behind the script...

Cheers
 
Aug 5, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Yeah Von Mises... You are the one...

Everybody blaming the US imperialists and EU for the situation in Ukraine are CTs. The informed poster you are, you own the truth via MSM and youtube. Not that USA would also engage in propaganda wars, hell no... They are the good guys, the peacekeepers. :rolleyes:

I thought del1962 and buffalo soldier (who at least sees that the USA is to blame too) were hitting a low point. But you best them all... Are you from Wyoming or something like this? Learning the world as some kind of Garp sees it (trou youtube & Fox News)...

Sorry, I cannot watch Fox News, but I can watch Russian channels, listen Russian radio. As you see most of my links are in russian.

Anyway, I am not looking at it via pro- or anti-american eyes. US has been wrong in many paces, but this does not give Putin right to invade Ukraine. Ukrainians are not to blamed or punished for wrongs what americans (supposedly) made in other places.

Btw, I am blaming US, but especially EU for situation in Ukraine too. Though I do not blame them for their involvement, but their total lack of involvement. Yes, right now when all hell is broken loose, they run around, but for years and years they (I mean EU) has been negligent towards Ukraine.

Right now elephant in the room is Russian invasion, plain and simple 19th century style landgrab. Talks about what americans did to Allende or how German judicial system failed Mollath is just distraction. Ukrainians cannot be blamed for Allende or Mollath.

(Though your comparisons are just laughable. You bring up Snowden and Mollath, at the same time Putin is jailing his main political rivals. So, when Obama starts jailing bushes or romneys, then we will talk again, otherwise I call your examples distraction from real issue).

Edit: It is a bit funny that you say that I see events only via MSM, because looking at this discussion, it seems that I am only one who speaks russian and reads russian, ukrainian (and western sources). Also, it does seem that I am only one who has actually been in Ukraine, last time btw in this February, left just couple of days before Yanukovitch fell...
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Buffalo Soldier said:
Don't make this a US vs Russia boxing match please.
Let's just agree neither of them is a role model. Instead try thinking on valid alternatives.

...ok you got serious so I guess I should try to be a bit more serious....find below an interesting article by an author who has over the last while written some bang-on articles....this particular one has some flaws but it does have great insights, one of which pertains to your call for valid alternatives to the white/black narrative being played out now...

"Wolfowitz figured the moment would come when the US would have to square off with Moscow in order to pursue it’s imperial strategy in Asia. Putin doesn’t seem to grasp that yet. He still clings to the misguided notion that rational people will find rational solutions to end the crisis. But he’s mistaken. Washington does not want a peaceful solution. "

....so lets assume that the quote has some genuine insight and game is now mad hat vs sane hat ( keeping in mind conflict at this level could easily take a disastrous turn and become nuclear...and voila we have the end times that many in the US of A pray for on a daily basis and who make up a significant part of the US of A military apparatus...don't laugh I've met idiots in high places in the US military just like that....)....

...so given that one side is not rational, read nuts, what alternatives are valid?...or what valid thing do you do when confronted by a ravenous rabid dog ? ....the only valid alternative here will most probably produce a dead dog....the problem then becomes weighting the effects of the inevitable blow-back...and those effects make the whole concept of valid kinda complicated don't they ?...

....the other thing to remember here is that Russia lived thru WW2, the US saw it mostly on a movie screen ( and got crazy rich doing playing war somewhere else... )...

Cheers

...and btw the article is.... http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/15/is-putin-being-lured-into-a-trap/
 
Apr 12, 2009
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blutto said:
...yeah that is just a scene from the ongoing production of Vylyaty Sobakoyu ...nothing unusual really...though its easier to understand if you know the story behind the script...

Cheers
Please enlighten us
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Von Mises said:
Edit: It is a bit funny that you say that I see events only via MSM, because looking at this discussion, it seems that I am only one who speaks russian and reads russian, ukrainian (and western sources). Also, it does seem that I am only one who has actually been in Ukraine, last time btw in this February, left just couple of days before Yanukovitch fell...

....actually you are not the only one here who has actually been in Ukraine or speaks the language....but you are probably the only one here who has shown he can't read a simple road map so you got us on that one...

...and please, next time you think of posting here, just think of the precious bandwidth that will be so terribly misused...

Cheers
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Von Mises said:
Ukrainians are not to blamed or punished for wrongs what americans (supposedly) made in other places.

No the average guy in Ukraine wants to live in peace. I guess there is no doubt about that. Problem is: US imperialists had other plans, giving millions to putschists to milk billions out of the country later. And if that´s not possible (b/c of the usual torched earth the US leaves countries with), the german taxpayers will, via all those unelected little EU dictators, pay the bill anyway (thus at least the military industry will make their profits).

Von Mises said:
Btw, I am blaming US, but especially EU for situation in Ukraine too. Though I do not blame them for their involvement, but their total lack of involvement.

Yeah. We need another hero like Schwarzkopf or Westmoreland to clean up all those countries who never tasted the sweets of freedom & democracy. :rolleyes:

Von Mises said:
Yes, right now when all hell is broken loose, they run around, but for years and years they (I mean EU) has been negligent towards Ukraine.

You truly think every country needs a babysitter a la USA?... Wow, the MSM really brainwashed your head. All hope is lost and gone...

Von Mises said:
Right now elephant in the room is Russian invasion, plain and simple 19th century style landgrab.

When did it start? Did I miss something. Or do you mean people have to fear another "invasion" via election like on Crimea?...
But I guess what you truly mean is this: The "revolutionaries" at Maidan were the true ones. Nice, handsome men fighting for freedom against the inner aggressor, while those non-sponsored fighters in East-Ukraine are "terrorists".... Again; Well done brainwash job on you.

Von Mises said:
Talks about what americans did to Allende or how German judicial system failed Mollath is just distraction. Ukrainians cannot be blamed for Allende or Mollath.

(Though your comparisons are just laughable. You bring up Snowden and Mollath, at the same time Putin is jailing his main political rivals. So, when Obama starts jailing bushes or romneys, then we will talk again, otherwise I call your examples distraction from real issue).

Edit: It is a bit funny that you say that I see events only via MSM, because looking at this discussion, it seems that I am only one who speaks russian and reads russian, ukrainian (and western sources). Also, it does seem that I am only one who has actually been in Ukraine, last time btw in this February, left just couple of days before Yanukovitch fell...

Get your things together...
When I talked about Allende, Mollath and else, it was NOT about Ukraine, but replies/answers to posts of others.
When I talked about your posts, indeed it was about Ukraine.
Improve your reading skills...
 
Jun 15, 2009
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blutto said:
...don't laugh I've met idiots in high places in the US military just like that....)....

... I only read about them. Those guys are real crazy. "Von Mises" would perfectly fit.
I mean they were planning to bomb one bridge with two ICBMs on each side. That was their master plans. Terrifying....
And those guys think they can bomb the world to their meaning of freedom & democracy.

Otherwise great post as always, thanks for the link, keep going... :)
 
Sep 25, 2009
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foxxy, i would not get worked up about von mises too much...in general, i feel the poster is misinformed and confused but is civil and sincere who speaks his/her heart and mind...he/she is obviously a pro-maidan western slav, likely a pole or a czech (i am 90% certain from his/her syntax and grammar)...

but lets review the days events...

the ukrainian elections are a bit over one month away...the country of ukraine is more split than ever with the putsch govt using the full swing of what ever's left of the puny national military against the eastern compatriots who dont want to be ruled by them..

the natural fact of 2 different ukraines - the pro-west maidan and the pro-russia south-east is now being pushed by their american sponsors into a full-fledged civil war.

i am still to hear, besides the discredited denials by von mises, what the fork was the cia chief doing in kiev ? why the ultimatum came down several hours after he left ? is there any further doubt, besides the infamous and irrefutable evidence of the nuland's telecon, that the us is driving a selfish, arrogant anti-russian coup at the expense of ukrainian people ?

anyways, true to their democratic principles, the us completely ignored that the only 2 presidential candidates , of 20+, both speaking for the 10s of millions of eastern ukrainians were brutally physically abused and beaten yesterday, all only b/c they tried to speak out for what they stood in the elections. moreover, one candidate was slapped with criminal charges and most likely cant even run officially. there goes the referendum, the only realistic demand they put forward...

anyone pointing to a single report in a major western outlet of the triumphant, democratic abuse ukraine is undergoing, the facts i just sited above, will get 10 euros from me. i guarantee.

such is the desperation of the us project to legitimize its investment into the anti-russian putsch.

the next move by russia will be most interesting...putin seldom lets the pundits enjoy their 'rational' predictions.

i bet, he will move and soon if the us continues to ignore the reality.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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python said:
foxxy, i would not get worked up about von mises too much...in general, i feel the poster is misinformed and confused but is civil and sincere who speaks his/her heart and mind...he/she is obviously a pro-maidan western slav, likely a pole or a czech (i am 90% certain from his/her syntax and grammar)...

Thanks. I might have gotten over the line. That´s me. If someone hits out, he should take some beating too. Anyway, I didn´t meant to go to far...
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Von Mises said:
Sadly you are not one of them.

...wow !...just when I was sure we had plumbed the depths of your absolutely amazing ability to totally misread, misunderstand and misinterpret we find a new low that, given the reality, is simply breath taking......you really don't have a clue about anything do you....I mean do you find yourself needing to carefully consult the toilet paper operator's manual every time you visit the loo...

...I'm now waiting for a post where you announce that sun actually rises in the west and sets in the east...


Cheers
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Another morning in Ukraine and another set of fires for the pro-west, putsch govt to deal with…

As is my usual, i started scanning the news with ‘neutral’ france 24’.

Headache 1: they reported that 6 armored personal carriers had gone to the side of rebels and were seen flying Russian flag.

immediately afterwards, the france24 political analyst rob parsons said, the news makes clear the ukrainian govt cant control the situation…

the pro-putsch source (unian) reported the defense ministry denied the news. The ministry's media rep said he video was fake.

The anti-putsch sources reported that the apc were stopped by protesting civilians who convinced soldiers to go to their side…

Whoever is right, the rebels seem getting a classic swell - first a trickle, then a flood of turnovers to the protesting side from the authories…

Headache 2: anti-putsch sources report that many armed men took over the main building of Donetsk administration. They declared ‘ the Donetsk republic’ . no clear denial or confirmation in pro-putsch sources.

Headache 3: Odessa anti-maidan organization (a southern city with 1.2 million) declared Odessa peoples republic. No reports of any buildings takeovers yet…
 
Apr 12, 2009
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Since this thread is over 1000 pages long, and you guys seem to have a clear picture: for an (offline) discussion I'm having with someone, I am looking for a reliable source/news article that gives a clear picture on how the US funded the putch. Would be grateful if you could give me one. Thanks.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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...8 minutes ago, the france24 local correspondent in the rioting city of donetsk had added a significant detail - the 6 apcs that had gone to the rebels are very unlikely had come from the russian federation...among other evidence (his talks with the locals and a telecon with another direct witness who saw the apc's) he sited long distance to the russian border...

^^^as to the 'reliable' source of how the putsch was organized by the us, well, keep in mind that there will always be some bias to any account. all depends on their attitude towards the parties ...

imo, the best is to conduct own research into the confirmed facts, that neither side denied or, moreover, admitted. such as,

-the intercepted conversation btwn american state dept no. 2 frau newland with american envoy to kiev ('$5 billion we spent on ngo'... etc etc)
-confirmed visit by the cia chief to kiev 3d ago, when the secret became public
- (with caution) variety of interviews with the former Ukrainian intelligence officials...many available in english, but as i said, need validation by other events and non-affiliated security professionals
-variety of interviews with the western and particularly american former intelligence officials, again, many are available in english, but the agents, as a rule, have gone into politics after snowden..

i would avoid ultra left, russian or israeli blogs and sites such as intelligencereview or debka....
 
Aug 5, 2009
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blutto said:
...wow !...just when I was sure we had plumbed the depths of your absolutely amazing ability to totally misread, misunderstand and misinterpret we find a new low that, given the reality, is simply breath taking......you really don't have a clue about anything do you....I mean do you find yourself needing to carefully consult the toilet paper operator's manual every time you visit the loo...

...I'm now waiting for a post where you announce that sun actually rises in the west and sets in the east...


Cheers

Soryy, I do not understand what you are talking about. Can you please send me latest brief from reptiles, then I can fill my roadmap.
 
Aug 5, 2009
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
When I talked about your posts, indeed it was about Ukraine.

Really, only thing I remeber was your blabber about Wyoming. Sorry that I do not see connection with Ukraine.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Von Mises said:
Soryy, I do not understand what you are talking about. Can you please send me latest brief from reptiles, then I can fill my roadmap.

....was just expressing the depths of my deep affection for you as a human being as well as stating in unequivocal terms how I feel about the sheer awesomeness of your intellectual abilities....so very sorry to have foisted even more confusion into your life....

...and as for filling in your roadmap here is a hint....when you are using crayons, as I'm sure you are, keep them as sharp as possible, otherwise you end up with just another garbled mess ( which, given your condition, you can hardly afford to have more of )....oh, and btw, when dealing with maps it is always good to remember that the map, no matter how detailed, is not the territory....hope that helps...

Cheers
 
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