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Jul 23, 2009
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fatandfast said:
While doing business in NYC,LA and Detroit I have found diplomacy works fantastic. Having broke bread with both Iranians and Iraqis I have found both peoples regardless of sect to be very nice and a pleasure to be around. If religious leaders of the Middle East don't want MTV or young girls sending a video crotch shot to a web-boy I applaud their sense of right and wrong. As we have seen,everywhere we try a force our values and systems on other cultures both young and old it does not work...ever. Many Sunni,Kurd.Shiites live here in the US and elsewhere in the west without much fanfare. We have so much great to export and exchange with others I think history and values would be some of the last things on our list. I could probably find a story about the Arab that insisted on selling an Eskimo a pair of flip flops no matter how much he protested,then we can take turns swapping the people and things in the story. No matter what not everybody wants what the other guy has got.
I have had the same experiences here. Unfortunately, Iran and Iraq are not part of the US and a different social structure exists there. Having a number of Lebanese students of both Christian and Muslim background, I asked them why they got along so well here in the states. They told me it was because they shared a culture (excepting for the religious differences) and our society made it safe for them to interact without violence. Individuals from both sides told me that if they were back in Lebanon they would be shooting at each other.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
What do you mean by 'works'? In the end it's always about something: autonomy, religious/cultural freedom, distribution of resources/income from oil wells, etc. People do not desire to live in a state of eternal warfare. In the end, the solution will always be some form of agreement/coexistence. There's no reason to believe that the only way to get there is through war.
There has been a state of constant warfare in the region for thousands of years - I would have thought they would have gotten tired of it as well and I am sure some have, however, so far it does not look like it will be stopping anytime soon.
 
May 13, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
There has been a state of constant warfare in the region for thousands of years - I would have thought they would have gotten tired of it as well and I am sure some have, however, so far it does not look like it will be stopping anytime soon.
This is completely and utterly wrong.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
There has been a state of constant warfare in the region for thousands of years - I would have thought they would have gotten tired of it as well and I am sure some have, however, so far it does not look like it will be stopping anytime soon.
What makes you think that the US can stop this through even more warfare or trying to shove western values down their throats? Are you admitting it was a mistake for us to invade Iraq?
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
Anyway, back to my question: What do you define as realistic goals for the region (short, intermediate, long term)? Give a good reason for each goal, why we should care. Then think of ways of how to reach those goals. Then explain which goal cannot be reached without diplomacy.
I am not going to state these are my goals, since I do not believe they are obtainable, but I think they would be reasonable:

A) Short term; political stability in the region. Terrorism breeds in instability, business (oil) is substantially hindered in times of instability, regional instability tends to spreed like a disease.

B) Intermediate; protection of the rights of individuals, minorities, and political parties that are not in power.

C) Long term; peace that is stable and allows people to hear blasting for construction and not hit the floor.

The short term can be reached only through a complete destruction of the political fundamentalists that operate and maintain power through a rhetoric of hate, since they are not going to voluntarily leave power they will have to forcefully be removed - I do not see diplomacy successfully removing them from power.

The intermediate future is more problematic unless you are willing to consider multi levels of human rights, those for women, those for the majority sect, and those for the minorities.

If you could get past the short and intermediate terms, the long term is only a matter of allowing time to pass by.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
This is completely and utterly wrong.
During the late 14th and early 15th centuries, the Black Sheep Turkmen ruled the area now known as Iraq. In 1466, the White Sheep Turkmen defeated the Black Sheep and took control. In the 16th century, most of the territory of present-day Iraq came under the control of Ottoman Empire as the pashalik of Baghdad. Throughout most of the period of Ottoman rule (1533-1918) the territory of present-day Iraq was a battle zone between the rival regional empires and tribal alliances. The Safavid dynasty of Iran briefly asserted their hegemony over Iraq in the periods of 1508-1533 and 1622-1638. During the years 1747-1831 Iraq was ruled by the Mamluk officers of Georgian origin who succeeded in obtaining autonomy from the Sublime Porte, suppressed tribal revolts, curbed the power of the Janissaries, restored order and introduced a program of modernization of economy and military. In 1831, the Ottomans managed to overthrow the Mamluk regime and imposed their direct control over Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iraq#Ottoman_Iraq_and_Mamluk_rule

Ottoman rule over Iraq lasted until the World War I when the Ottomans sided with Germany and the Central Powers. In the Mesopotamian campaign against the Central Powers, British forces invaded the country and suffered a major defeat at the hands of the Turkish army during the Siege of Kut (1915–16). After the war the Ottoman Empire was divided up, and the British Mandate of Mesopotamia was established by League of Nations mandate. Britain imposed a Hāshimite monarchy on Iraq and defined the territorial limits of Iraq without taking into account the politics of the different ethnic and religious groups in the country, in particular those of the Kurds and the Assyrians to the north. During the British occupation, the Shi'ites and Kurds fought for independence.

Although the monarch Faisal I of Iraq was legitimized and proclaimed King by a plebiscite in 1921, nominal independence was only achieved in 1932, when the British Mandate officially ended.

In 1945, Iraq joined the United Nations and became a founding member of the Arab League. At the same time, the Kurdish leader Mustafa Barzani led a rebellion against the central government in Baghdad. After the failure of the uprising Barzani and his followers fled to the Soviet Union. In 1948, Iraq entered the 1948 Arab-Israeli War along with other members of the Arab League.

In February 1958, King Hussein of Jordan and `Abd al-Ilāh proposed a union of Hāshimite monarchies to counter the recently formed Egyptian-Syrian union. The prime minister Nuri as-Said wanted Kuwait to be part of the proposed Arab-Hāshimite Union. Shaykh `Abd-Allāh as-Salīm, the ruler of Kuwait, was invited to Baghdad to discuss Kuwait's future. This policy brought the government of Iraq into direct conflict with Britain, which did not want to grant independence to Kuwait. At that point, the monarchy found itself completely isolated. Nuri as-Said was able to contain the rising discontent only by resorting to ever greater political oppression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iraq#20th_century

That is just a short view of Iraqi history.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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titan_90 said:
What makes you think that the US can stop this through even more warfare or trying to shove western values down their throats? Are you admitting it was a mistake for us to invade Iraq?
I would have been ok going in, removing Saddam, and leaving - of course that would have resulted in civil war and complete regional instability which could only have been controlled by the threat of future force - that we would do it again if things got out of hand.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
I have had the same experiences here. Unfortunately, Iran and Iraq are not part of the US and a different social structure exists there. Having a number of Lebanese students of both Christian and Muslim background, I asked them why they got along so well here in the states. They told me it was because they shared a culture (excepting for the religious differences) and our society made it safe for them to interact without violence. Individuals from both sides told me that if they were back in Lebanon they would be shooting at each other.
So if you add the "secret sauce" here in the US people go to softball outings together, but if you try and make them act American in Beruit they resist...makes sense. Leave them the f..k alone. We are attempting to reverse a few 1000 years of history. If you mix a suicide bomber with a soccer mom you still come up with crap. Not all things can be mixed east and west look like 2 things that are not going to stay together no matter how much you spend on glue. This is possibly the worst hobby the US ever got involved in. Peace as a part time job
 
Mar 11, 2009
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fatandfast said:
So if you add the "secret sauce" here in the US people go to softball outings together, but if you try and make them act American in Beruit they resist...makes sense. Leave them the f..k alone. We are attempting to reverse a few 1000 years of history. If you mix a suicide bomber with a soccer mom you still come up with crap. Not all things can be mixed east and west look like 2 things that are not going to stay together no matter how much you spend on glue. This is possibly the worst hobby the US ever got involved in. Peace as a part time job
Well said:D
 
Jul 23, 2009
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fatandfast said:
So if you add the "secret sauce" here in the US people go to softball outings together, but if you try and make them act American in Beruit they resist...makes sense. Leave them the f..k alone. We are attempting to reverse a few 1000 years of history. If you mix a suicide bomber with a soccer mom you still come up with crap. Not all things can be mixed east and west look like 2 things that are not going to stay together no matter how much you spend on glue. This is possibly the worst hobby the US ever got involved in. Peace as a part time job
The problem was that Iran was winning in the 1980s and the fear was that it would take over the entire region. We will never know the results since we did get involved. Certainly, both the US and the European governments were concerned about regional stability and how it would effect oil - you can say that is not important but it was not the US alone who saw this as a problem.

Go back and read some of the prior postings and you will see that the extreme fundamentalists in the middle east consider the entire Mediterranean region to belong to them, after that the world.

However, I do agree with you, it is unlikely that the region will ever be completely at peace and all our troops are doing is keeping a lid on violence which continues to erupt.

Interestingly, Pre-1979 Iran had the most western culture in the region. It had been forced on them by the Shah but the students in Iran seem to look at that time frame as significantly better than today.
 
CentralCaliBike said:
Diplomacy did not work in Iraq when Saddam was in power. Perhaps someone could explain how it will work with the Shi'ites, Kurds, Sunnis who have been going at each other in that region for centuries? How will it work with when Iran goes after Iraq as it has in the past?
The giant oil companies supported by American and European economic interests have played a dirty hand in the Middle East over the last century. Dilomacy was never a serious option and, consequently, neither has their been any growing comprehension or sympathy between the West and the region.

Apart from the religious isuess which have been made an instrument of stiring up aggression, the real crisis has been caused by the West's voracious apetite for oil and the arrogant position that it has the sole right to determine the management of the energy resources as best as it sees fit, even at he expense of diverting profits from the local economies.

Thus in 53 Musadec (a non-religious leader), who simply wanted for Iran what was under it's sovereign rights -namely to have some of the oil profits channeled directly into the local economy- because inconvenient to the West was assasinated with CIA support. And Musadec begot the Shah, which begot the ayatollahs which stir up Jihadists.

Again in the Iraq-Iran war. First the CIA backs Saddam with weapons, then backs the Ayatollah (Iran-contra) to push Saddam back. But this cynical dispensing of arms for pure economic growth, has planted the seeds of hate that we are unfortunately dealing with today. And it will now get much worse.

I think one needs to clean up one's own yard, before telling one's neighbor how to clean his.
 
CentralCaliBike said:
Go back and read some of the prior postings and you will see that the extreme fundamentalists in the middle east consider the entire Mediterranean region to belong to them, after that the world.
Been watching a bit too much Faux News, eh?

WIth all the fears about evil muslims, Castro, communists, and Dr. Evil, it is surprising you guys manage to get out of bed in the morning. There must be a huge urge to just hide beneath the covers all day.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Been watching a bit too much Faux News, eh?

WIth all the fears about evil muslims, Castro, communists, and Dr. Evil, it is surprising you guys manage to get out of bed in the morning. There must be a huge urge to just hide beneath the covers all day.
I do not watch television news. Most of my information is from history and political science books, news stories (the written kind), and discussions with a number of people (friends, family and acquaintances) who were not born in the US. Also, having seen a lot of victim's of violence (those murdered and the survivors) I have a healthy respect for the aggressive nature of man.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
The problem was that Iran was winning in the 1980s and the fear was that it would take over the entire region. We will never know the results since we did get involved. Certainly, both the US and the European governments were concerned about regional stability and how it would effect oil - you can say that is not important but it was not the US alone who saw this as a problem.

Go back and read some of the prior postings and you will see that the extreme fundamentalists in the middle east consider the entire Mediterranean region to belong to them, after that the world.

However, I do agree with you, it is unlikely that the region will ever be completely at peace and all our troops are doing is keeping a lid on violence which continues to erupt.

Interestingly, Pre-1979 Iran had the most western culture in the region. It had been forced on them by the Shah but the students in Iran seem to look at that time frame as significantly better than today.
I am not sure what they were "winning" in the 80's. Before the I-a-toola came out of exile in France. The US sold ships,planes and bombs and technology to the Shah without a blink of an eye. The had more women in higher education than any other country in their region and were on track to have women attend school with numbers that would have rivaled the west. Many of their doctors were trained at schools in the US and Europe and their lives were ever improving before the 80's. Mesopotamia is a hard thing for us to get are head around, Iraq and Iran could maybe teach us a thing or 2. The azzhole who downed the WTC has been on a camping trip while getting kidney dialasis for a few years , all on horseback and by candlelight in a cave. This culture and it's people can go very backward/mid evil at the drop of a hat. We should swap recipes and let our wallets do the talking. Let France,Germany,China and Russia keep building them nuke whatever, Iran can't build anything without one of our "friends" giving them the parts. We should focus our attention on our tech savy ,money hungry allies who will F us if the price is right.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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fatandfast said:
I am not sure what they were "winning" in the 80's. Before the I-a-toola came out of exile in France. The US sold ships,planes and bombs and technology to the Shah without a blink of an eye. The had more women in higher education than any other country in their region and were on track to have women attend school with numbers that would have rivaled the west. Many of their doctors were trained at schools in the US and Europe and their lives were ever improving before the 80's.
Up to this point I completely agree.
 
CentralCaliBike said:
Q: "Exactly what shape is the Earth if it's flat? Square or circle?"

A: Circle, like in the UN logo. However, the earth is NOT 2D; it is in the shape of a cylinder.

Q: "Why doesn't water run off the Earth?"

A1: In the general model, there is a vast ice wall that keeps the water where it is. The ice wall is roughly 150ft high. This also explains why you can find a vast plane of ice when you travel south. Antarctica as a continent does not exist.

A2: In James McIntyre's model, the height of the ice wall increases toward the edge. The ice wall holds the oceans in place.

A3: In John Davis's model, ice wall also holds the ocean in place. What lies beyond the ice wall is a seemingly endless plain of ice. The true magnitude of the earth beyond the ice wall may never be known.

Q: "Wouldn't the atmosphere be diffused into space?"

A1: In the general model, there is a vector field created during the interaction between DE and the Earth. This is known as the DEF, which it acts as a containment to prevent DE from affecting objects with mass on Earth. This explains why the atmolayer will not be diffused into space. Here is an explanation on the DEF's structure by one of our moderators.

A2: In James McIntyre's model, the greater ice wall holds the atmolayer in place.

Q: "How does global warming affect the ice wall?"

A: In the general model, the Ice Wall is really a mountain range. It just happens to be covered in ice and snow.

Q: "What about tides?"

A: The gravitational pull of the heavenly bodies provide tidal effects. Others believe that there is an object called the Sub-moon that sits underneath the Earth. The moon causes the tides, and the Sub-moon balances out the effect.

Q : "Why is the North pole colder than the equator?"

A: The sun circles over the equator, thus the poles don't receive the same intensity of light.

Q: "How do volcanic eruptions happen?"

A: The Earth is thick enough to have a core of molten lava. Once there's too much of it in too confined a space, it finds its way out, just like the water will come out of a full bottle if you squeeze it too hard.

Q: "What about time zones?"

A: The sun is a spotlight which shines light on a concentrated area, so not everywhere on Earth will be lit at once. Times zones exist so that everyone's clock will be at 12:00 around the time the sun is approximately directly overhead.

Q: "What about Lunar Eclipses?"

A: A celestial body, known as the antimoon, passes between the sun and moon. This projects a shadow upon the moon.

Q: "How come the travel time by air from South America to New Zealand, via the polar route, is SHORTER than the travel time going North first and then South again?"

A: The airline pilots are guided by their GPS. Remember that satellites don't exist. The replacement data given from pseudolites deliberately throwing distorting all the paths to make it the flights take different times. The curvature of these paths can add or subtract great distances without the overall turning being obvious to someone traveling it.

Q: "How can a compass work on a Flat Earth?"

A: The magnetic field is generated in the same fashion as with the RE (Diagram). Thus, the magnetic south pole is near the geographic north pole, just like on the RE. The magnetic north pole is on the underside of the Earth. The Ice Wall is not the south pole, but acts as it, as it is the furthest from the center of the earth that you can follow the magnetic field. The field is vertical in this area, accounting for the aurora australis.

Q: "When traveling in a straight direction, you will always reach the same point on the globe from where you started. How can this happen if the world is flat?"

A: You need to have evidence for this to be true. Also, define "straight." Remember, the northern point on the compass is, under most circumstances (unless near the center or deep in the ice wall), pointing toward the center of the Earth. If you follow your compass due east or due west, ending up at the same point you started from, you've just gone around the world in a circle. Thus, circumnavigation is possible on FE.

Q: "If you go directly south won't you eventually fall off the edge of the Earth?"

A: Yes, you will. In order to use this fact as proof you need to record a video of someone flying directly south around the world without falling off the edge. Furthermore you need to prove that your navigational equipment allows you to travel directly south without deviating.

Q: "How come when I flush my toilet in the northern hemisphere it goes counterclockwise but I have this friend in Australia and when he flushes it goes clockwise?"

A: You're mistaken. On a round Earth, the Coriolis effect adds at most one (counter)clockwise rotation per day; fewer as you get closer to the equator. The water in your toilet/sink/bathtub/funnel spins much faster than that (probably at least once per minute, or 1440 times per day), so the additional/lost rotation from the Coriolis effect wouldn't be noticed.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org
 
Dec 3, 2009
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The use and maintenance of swimwear

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Use and maintenance:
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2, dressed to avoid friction with the rough rocks or on the ground to prevent the fibers take the yarn.
3, wet swimming suits and can not be placed in a plastic bag by a long sea or pool water dipping, easy to color.
4, swimming, hand wash with water as soon as they do not use laundry detergent and bleach.
5, washed in well-ventilated place to dry in the sun is not direct exposure.
6, a long time to save, do not be placed on a decay product concentration flavored cabinet.
 
A

Anonymous

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nice to see this thread is still going...the lone nut in his castle sorta stuff...I dropped off a week ago...and here he still is with quotes and figures, charts and maps and god knows what else...nice to know there are still some of these type of people out there...taking on the world and justifying their nutty viewpoints...very entertaining and please keep it up!:):):):)
 
Bala Verde said:
Nope. I wish more of this stuff would show up on cable instead of crappy Hollywood films with storylines that could have been written by fourteen year olds. I still have to find "The Smartest Guys in the Room."

Frontline did another credit card show a couple of weeks ago that built on the show they did a couple of years ago. Frontline is rerunning their Madoff show this week. And one of the Discovery or History channels has a Madoff documenty on this week.

It ticks me off that not one of the mainstream news sources managed to seriously question the housing bubble until it was too late. The corporate owned media is largely worthless.
 
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