World Politics

[python]

Putin's foreign advisor worth listening to.

Even though i maintain a skepticism and distance, atleast it was not the shrill Beeb or CNN version...

what was Python's opinion?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cikvqdMRTTA#t=11

like you, and we both said it before, i consider the ukrainian crisis a proxy war. the trick is not in recognizing who the proxies are, but who is behind Ukraine's actions. if in the beginning of the 'revolution' the main driver was the us (with europe interested mainly in the uki-eu economic association), now it is the eu -or more specifically germany - that are increasingly stepping, or at least trying to, into the purely european crisis. i believe, the europeans recognized the fundamental differences btwn the eu and american goals in ukraine. thus i think, vlad, on the one hand, is maneuvering to increase the distance btwn germany and the us, and on another, to spoil the eu appetite for sanctions via moscow's traditional connections and influence in south europe - greece, italy, slovakia, spain cyprus, bulgaria..even the czechs... . slovakia yesterday even declared they are ready to veto ANY new sanctions... to achieve these goals, vlad tries to play both his military and economic chips.

vlad's military options are the most dangerous to himself and to europe. that mike whitney article was too one-sided,. while it is true, the rebels are on the roll, it is also obvious they can't take kiev. the most vlad can achieve by infiltrating ukraine with the russian volunteers and special op, is to create another frozen conflict like in transylvania, south osetia etc...europe dreads frozen conflicts. thus vlad calculates, they may pressure poro to adopt such a state federalization model, where russia will maintain poilitical influence in the south east and the defacto brake on the nato membership.

should vlad fail to extract the sufficient concessions, i believe he is prepared, or at least tries to convey THAT to germany, that a further military escalation will follow. it may further split and radicalize the eu, create a black hole for the billions they are still to sink in to ukraine and, finally, undermine the fragile recovery and the banks...geramany knows all too well, their export oriented economy and the fragile ruling coalition may stall.

and on a more distilled level, why and how did europe sink into such a mess ?

in my firm opinion, it is b/c europe refused to see the 'economy stupid'. they refused to heed a reasonable request from russia in november 2013 that the'd like to have a say in the rate of ukraine's integration into europe. not only russia's economy was not ready to handle the influence of the clearly more advanced european standards, it would stand to lose almost overnight the whole economic braches that are based on inefficient, archaic post soviet methods...dont forget, just 2 decades ago it was one economic organism !

the way, i saw it - and still do - vlad and yanukovich asked for a breezing space or, and this is very important,for a sufficient economic compensation in case the rate of integration was determined in Brussels. it is easy to recall what they got for an answer. yanukovich was promised 500 mln (compare this to 17 bln post putsch) and vlad was told that the eu mechanism is not designed to handle a 3d party.

a less determined and more pliant politician would of course yield by now to the combined might of the west.

vlad is clearly made of a different cloth. thus i worry the worse is yet to come if germany fails to maintain political influence in europe over american geopolitical goals of containing russia in order to extend it's own domination.

it is just an opinion...

 

[blutto]

And ps, any apologist for the British empire should be taken about as seriously as someone who thinks they have found proof through obscure Russian language blog reports, that Obama ordered the shooting down over the airplane over Ukraine as part of some grand new world conspiracy

...yeah that sounds about as silly as someone bemoaning the fact that Putin hasn't picked up the phone and called one of the players on his "chess board" to do something or other...

...as for the rest of your screed about the importance of American culture to the rest of the world....you may want to read some real cultural history because the analysis you present is barely above the comic book level ( as in something SoWrong would throw out there ...)...the reality is, that yes it does have a far reaching impact, but its penetration is only about 1mil thick ( its pop cult after all and its designed to be disposable, vacuous, empty mental calories....its a fashion accessory for the most part...)....just to put this into perspective....when music was a "driving force" in North American 60's/70's culture, where one would think it could have a profound effect, its overall sales were only about 25% of the sales of pet food ....

Cheers

 

[blackcat]

thanks Python, Whitney was too polemic by half, it detracted from the valid points he wished to assert

seems now is NOT the time DC wishes to get bogged down in cold war iteration deux, they are now full steam ringfencing the Sino appetite for resources in Africa, engaging more of a presence with Africom, are up to their Armpits in Mesopotamia and Israel with neo-jiadis since the salafi and wahhabi crazies got a second wind, and he is trying to engage the nascent Chinese navy with sea control in the pacific.

NOT THE TIME

like you said, its nato's ambitions now, when they are only the yankee proxy, and prolly have no stomach when they dont have any real dog in this cold fight.

 

[python]

thanks Python, Whitney was too polemic by half, it detracted from the valid points he wished to assert

seems now is NOT the time DC wishes to get bogged down in cold war iteration deux, they are now full steam ringfencing the Sino appetite for resources in Africa, engaging more of a presence with Africom, are up to their Armpits in Mesopotamia and Israel with neo-jiadis since the salafi and wahhabi crazies got a second wind, and he is trying to engage the nascent Chinese navy with sea control in the pacific.

NOT THE TIME

like you said, its nato's ambitions now, when they are only the yankee proxy, and prolly have no stomach when they dont have any real dog in this cold fight.

the real test of who will drive ukraine's domestic and foreign policy (germany/eu vs the us) is as far away as the beginning cold weather...

to remind, currently the ukraine is cut off from the russian natural gas supply due to arrears. they do however pipe thru a substantial portion of russian gas to europe. so far, we haven't heard ukraine stealing the gas for their own needs as had happened in the 2009 gas war with russia.

in this regard, the following statement by the eu energy commissioner is exceptionally significant:

During a long and cold winter Ukraine will lack gas, and if the country does not have enough own gas - the danger of gas being stolen arises

http://www.doppler1000.com/index.cf...-winter-threatening-eus-gas-supply-709911/?go
i did read the original Günther Oettinger statement. the english translation is accurate.

iow, a key eu politician publicly admitted that ukraine can and may steal thus putting the energy security of europe below its own needs.

was it a warning to ukraine or to the us (the sponsor of their hard line in the negotiations with russia) or to both ?

we'll see, but i anticipate an increasing pressure on ukraine by germany to get its shyt together, particularly given that it is europe that pays ukrainian bills and it is europe that stands to lose most in case of the repetition of the 2009 gas war.

 

[blutto]

...hot on the heels of the Whitney piece is an article by an author who is every bit as polemicalistical-like....and his punch line is as nice a kick in the teeth to NeoCon designed foolishness as was Whitney's...

...the money line..

"ISIL became ISIS, then the by now notorious Islamic State(IS) which has been rampaging across northern and central Iraq. What makes IS so effective is that the major portion of its leaders and soldiers are veterans of President Saddam Hussein’s army, notably the Republican Guard. With IS is the last surviving Saddam insider, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri.

When the US first invaded Iraq, Saddam predicted it would face the “Mother of all battles.” Westerners laughed. Eleven years later, the laughter has been silenced. Iraq continues to fight on and it is no longer safe for foreign oil companies. Saddam’s revenge."

...like how cool is that !?...

...from... http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/08/eric-margolis/the-mother-of-all-blowbacks/

Cheers

 

[blackcat]

the real test of who will drive ukraine's domestic and foreign policy (germany/eu vs the us) is as far away as the beginning cold weather...

to remind, currently the ukraine is cut off from the russian natural gas supply due to arrears. they do however pipe thru a substantial portion of russian gas to europe. so far, we haven't heard ukraine stealing the gas for their own needs as had happened in the 2009 gas war with russia.

in this regard, the following statement by the eu energy commissioner is exceptionally significant:

http://www.doppler1000.com/index.cf...-winter-threatening-eus-gas-supply-709911/?go
i did read the original Günther Oettinger statement. the english translation is accurate.

iow, a key eu politician publicly admitted that ukraine can and may steal thus putting the energy security of europe below its own needs.

was it a warning to ukraine or to the us (the sponsor of their hard line in the negotiations with russia) or to both ?

we'll see, but i anticipate an increasing pressure on ukraine by germany to get its shyt together, particularly given that it is europe that pays ukrainian bills and it is europe that stands to lose most in case of the repetition of the 2009 gas war.

when the US and the EU pushed thru the sanctions I axiomatically thought that they included natural gas too. I always thought this was gunna be some spanner in this geopolitik lever. But it never did! Well, FC Schalke would be happy. They still get the Gazprom sponsorship dont they? They get multiples of Katusha!

Guess there are always exceptions to sanctions... like Clinton's donor Marc Rich.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

...hot on the heels of the Whitney piece is an article by an author who is every bit as polemicalistical-like....and his punch line is as nice a kick in the teeth to NeoCon designed foolishness as was Whitney's...

...the money line..

"ISIL became ISIS, then the by now notorious Islamic State(IS) which has been rampaging across northern and central Iraq. What makes IS so effective is that the major portion of its leaders and soldiers are veterans of President Saddam Hussein’s army, notably the Republican Guard. With IS is the last surviving Saddam insider, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri.

When the US first invaded Iraq, Saddam predicted it would face the “Mother of all battles.” Westerners laughed. Eleven years later, the laughter has been silenced. Iraq continues to fight on and it is no longer safe for foreign oil companies. Saddam’s revenge."

...like how cool is that !?...

...from... http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/08/eric-margolis/the-mother-of-all-blowbacks/

Cheers

Except having an 'army on the field' is the one thing the 'insurgents' didn't have for the last decade. isis being an 'army', small, led by guys that got their *** kicked twice, is exactly what the US needs..doubt the iraqi 'army' will find their spine..others, unorganized militia...'maybe' some US military on the ground..when isis starts getting hurt, they will blend into the country side and start blowing up civilians again..

Look for some targeted strikes in Syria at the CnC level of isis..cut off their head..green ink for the USN aviators.

 

[blutto]

....more stuff from polemicalistical writers on the affairs in The Ukraine...and yeah its a small sample but what the hey at least it has some proofiness ( whereas MSM stories consist of printers ink and nothing much else....like its kinda weird that cell-phone cameras don't seem to work during the countless episodes of Russian invasions...must be real sophisticated electronic jamming eh?...)

...anyways, here is the bit in question...from David Lindorff, a guy who has a habit of being correct....

"Later, in Finland, I made a road trip from the southern city of Kuopio to northern Lapland above the Arctic Circle, to report on arctic climate change. Just before reaching the Arctic Circle on my first evening on the road, I came on two young people, a man and a woman, who were hitchhiking. Being a long-time hitchhiker myself, and deeply in karmic debt as a driver, I immediately pulled over and invited them to hop in.



They turned out to be two Ukrainians from Kiev, both just out of college. The young man, Vladimir, was trained as an engineer. The young woman, Svetlana, was a communications grad. She spoke better English than Vlad. They explained that they had left Ukraine a month earlier in a group of some 100 young people, “to find work, and to get away from the war.” At the time Ukraine had no conscription, but this month conscription was reimposed for all men between 18 and 25, with the potential, as the army is getting routed, of all males up to 60 getting called up. So they left for good reason. Protests, with mothers saying they won’t let their sons be sent off to fight, are reportedly spreading [1] all over western Ukraine against conscription (though this is not being mentioned in the US corporate media).

Both Vladimir and Svetlana said that they had no interest in fighting the rebels in eastern Ukraine, and they said that the Ukrainian government installed after rioters ousted elected President Viktor Yanokovych was “completely corrupt.”

....from... http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/01/its-all-about-ukraine/

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....so the question that has been debated for weeks now is whether Russia has actually invaded The Ukraine....find below a handy guide that will help interested parties to make an informed decision on this matter...

...and yes it is from a Russian, so proceed with caution, because we all know those god-less commies lie about everything, not at all like us guys....

http://cluborlov.blogspot.ca/2014/08/how-can-you-tell-whether-russia-has.html

Cheers

 

[python]

regarding whether russia's regular military units actually invaded ukraine...i think it's a moot point.

a more relevant point, and imo much more loaded, would be to estimate the number of volunteers from russia and their percentage in the total # of rebels.

i have been hunting for such numbers all over. the claims of both sides, even if obviously unrealistic, were of interest to me...

in that regard, 2 recent claims aren't only curious but they seemingly should have belonged to the enemy of the party that made them.

specifically, one can easily google out that an official nato source placed the number of russians at about 1 thousand. almost at the same, one of the rebel leaders (the name escapes me for now) claimed that the total of russian volunteers in their ranks was between 3 and 4 thousand. i personally read it in the english subtitles provided by reuters.

is the rebel leader doing the popes job better than the pope

and to continue with the numbers, about one month ago another rebel leader claimed their total fighting man numbered about 5,000 or about 10,000 when fully mobilized. thus, if their leaders claims were taken seriously, the russians would constitute about 30-40%. it would seem to me a plausible number with the rest being the locals and the international volunteers (there were reports of many serbians, greeks, french etc)

then, on the other side of the fence, is the number of ukrainian soldiers fighting in the east. at different times, i recall the official numbers to vary btwn 20-30 thousand.

if the nato source reporting an injection of 1000 russians was correct, it would seem an insignificant number to fully explain the catastrophic reverses the ukrainians had suffered.

other factors must be in play that the western msm aint willing to report on, such as low moral, high desertion rate, incompetence etc...

 

[blutto]

....forgot to post the following comment from the article I have posted above...thought youse may find it interesting...

"Yesterday, the Japanese government broadcaster, NHK, ran a snippet of Zakharchenko's press conference with him admitting to receiving regular Russian troops and making a threat on Kiev. Today, I had a look at the entire press conference, thanks to the Saker and to Paul Craig Roberts for the link. Apparently, NHK left off the "if" in "If we were receiving regular Russian troops, we would not be fighting in Elenovka..." So now anyone who still takes NHK seriously thinks the rebels have admitted to receiving official military support from Russia and are threatening an assault on Kiev.

A week ago, we got some prime-time truth out of NHK (probably, I think the other broadcasters are focused more locally) about the Ukraine situation, but they've reverted to outright lies. This morning NHK showed all the EU leaders lined up condemning Russia for its military incursion, when all of them know, as Dmitry has made so clear, that it is plain nonsense."

....and compare that to the following...

"More accusations fly across the media, like so many flocks of Canada geese, of direct Russian involvement in Ukraine. Much is made of an interview with Donetsk National Republic leader Alexander Zakharchenko, in which he “admits” there are Russian volunteers fighting on his side.

To the west, that’s all the proof they need. There are 1000 Russians in Ukraine, cries NATO. That doesn’t make them the Russian army though. If there are only 1000, that would be disappointing. These are people who are seeing their family just across the border shot to bits."

...from an article that looks at the problems of the supply of gas to Europe from Russia...and not a bad read...

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/08/ilargi-eu-gas-supply-real-imminent-danger.html

...so I guess the question is which version do you believe...the one with "if" or the "fair and balanced" polemic-free one...btw has anyone here seen this interview in unedited form ?....

Cheers

 

[hfer07]

On the new European sanctions against Russia.......


winter is around the corner and it will be "painful" to endure it when your gas supplier shuts down the valve, because of some "disagreements".....

...and Countries like Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy are selling their goods to Russia too, while not thinking that BRICS is set to replace their market for those products.......

but hey-- its always good to go to war and conflict(at least the USA) rather than settle for common sense, progress, commerce and agreements.....

 

[Bustedknuckle]

On the new European sanctions against Russia.......


winter is around the corner and it will be "painful" to endure it when your gas supplier shuts down the valve, because of some "disagreements".....

...and Countries like Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy are selling their goods to Russia too, while not thinking that BRICS is set to replace their market for those products.......

but hey-- its always good to go to war and conflict(at least the USA) rather than settle for common sense, progress, commerce and agreements.....

Yep, Europe will knuckle under to Russia, again. Common sense, you mean, where will the boundary of 'New Russia" be?

Interesting Putin is describing the Ukranian's as 'nazis', in spite of the fact that what Vlad is doing, protecting the 'interests' of Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine, by invading..is what Hitler did in Poland before WWII, protect German 'interests'..

 

[python]

as always, der spiegel is well informed...

(in german)
Analyse der militärischen Lage: Nato sieht Ukraine bereits als Verlierer des Konflikts
(military analysis - nato considers ukraine as already defeated)
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...iederlage-fuer-kiew-fuer-sicher-a-989308.html

my summary:
a well informed source (a senior general) told the paper of a closed-door nato meeting where the ukrainian army's only viable option was put as 'to negotiate the withdrawal of the surrounded troops if they want to stay alive'. of particular concern was that the authorities lost control of airports and the fact that the town of mariupol, if captured, will provided the russians with the land bridge to crimea. the ukrainians suffered heavy casualties, including hundreds of prisoners. thus, the russian invasion, according to the source is not necessary. 'in military terms it is called a victory'

---
forgot to provide the link

 

[blutto]

Yep, Europe will knuckle under to Russia, again. Common sense, you mean, where will the boundary of 'New Russia" be?

Interesting Putin is describing the Ukranian's as 'nazis', in spite of the fact that what Vlad is doing, protecting the 'interests' of Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine, by invading..is what Hitler did in Poland before WWII, protect German 'interests'..

...a "wee" bit off base there dude...he was referring to the vanguard of the glorious revolution who worship old Nazis, whose antecedents fought for the Nazis, and in the present advocate genocidal ethic cleansing of the Russian/Russian speaking population in eastern Ukraine ( something their antecedents actually did in WW2 )....

...like a real honest to goodness second coming of "old school" Nazis....

Cheers

 

[Bustedknuckle]

...a "wee" bit off base there dude...he was referring to the vanguard of the glorious revolution who worship old Nazis, whose antecedents fought for the Nazis, and in the present advocate genocidal ethic cleansing of the Russian/Russian speaking population in eastern Ukraine ( something their antecedents actually did in WW2 )....

...like a real honest to goodness second coming of "old school" Nazis....

Cheers

I was referring to the fact that Vlad used the word 'nazi' at all...considering Nazi tactics in WWII in Poland and elsewhere...

Are the western Ukranians somewhat 'right wing'? No doubt, considering the beating they took at Russian hands in WWII. But an invasion of Ukraine is Putin's worse nightmare..and then lying about it..no Vlad, the photos taken are not from a video game, like a member of your own cabinet said..

 

[python]

Are the western Ukranians somewhat 'right wing'? No doubt, considering the beating they took at Russian hands in WWII.

i dont know if what you wrote is what you wanted to say...the western Ukrainians are not necessarily 'right wing'. they do, however, as a general rule, are more nationalistic, more 'pro-europe' and less fond of russia. they also may number prominently in the extreme right wing organizations like svoboda and the right sector that spearheaded the 'revolution' and are now sent to the east to kill their compatriots...

all that said, the extreme right is not the majority even in western ukraine. it is an entirely different matter that their current leaders managed to usurp their countries official line to become so anti-russian and anti eastern ukrainians, that unfortunately the associations like yours take place.

we had a cleaning lady from the west ukraine. b/c i can speak some czech, i could more or less converse with her...she was a nice, warm, level-headed, 40 something lady who was too well educated to take the simplistic slogans too close. we actually grew so fond of her that she was invited to our family events. of course we talked politics sometimes. she went back to lvov a year ago...

 

[Bavarianrider]

So when the West-Ukrainians make a revolution they are heroes.
When the east Ukrainians make one they are villans that have to be fought.
The double standart by the "west" is yet again mindblowing. Let people in east Ukraine decide where they wanna stand. If they wanna join Russia, so be it.
You can't back one unconstitutional revolution and condem the other one.

 

[hfer07]

Yep, Europe will knuckle under to Russia, again. Common sense, you mean, where will the boundary of 'New Russia" be?

Interesting Putin is describing the Ukranian's as 'nazis', in spite of the fact that what Vlad is doing, protecting the 'interests' of Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine, by invading..is what Hitler did in Poland before WWII, protect German 'interests'..

the "new Russia" wants to "trade" - like the rest of the world.

BTW- I didn't know Hitler invaded Poland to protect a vital gas line crossing that country to supply Europe's market....

 

[blutto]

I was referring to the fact that Vlad used the word 'nazi' at all...considering Nazi tactics in WWII in Poland and elsewhere...

Are the western Ukranians somewhat 'right wing'? No doubt, considering the beating they took at Russian hands in WWII. But an invasion of Ukraine is Putin's worse nightmare..and then lying about it..no Vlad, the photos taken are not from a video game, like a member of your own cabinet said..

...wouldn't say they are "right wing" as a whole though the vanguard that I referred to is definitely lunatic fringe right wing...and yes there is a strong undercurrent of anti-Russian feeling that goes well beyond WW2, more correctly to centuries of repression ( please note that in WW2 a great many Ukrainians fought on the Soviet side...the Nazis being considered the greater/greatest evil....and do also remember that Stalin was Georgian and both Khrushchev and Brezhnev were Ukrainian so please don't see the USSR as simply a Russian system, it was much more complicated than that...)

...that being said there has been a great deal of inter-marriage over the last few years that has forced a softening of that sentiment...except of course with America's bestest friend in this conflict, the Nazi vanguard of the glorious revolution...

.... which leads me to the following question....why is it that when the US of A charges off on one of their crusades to spread freedom, democracy, and the American way of life ( usually bad food and ****ty movies ) they invariably ally themselves with the scummiest, most vile elements in the local neighborhood...?...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

I was referring to the fact that Vlad used the word 'nazi' at all...considering Nazi tactics in WWII in Poland and elsewhere...

Are the western Ukranians somewhat 'right wing'? No doubt, considering the beating they took at Russian hands in WWII. But an invasion of Ukraine is Putin's worse nightmare..and then lying about it..no Vlad, the photos taken are not from a video game, like a member of your own cabinet said..

...wouldn't say they are "right wing" as a whole though the vanguard that I referred to is definitely lunatic fringe right wing...and yes there is a strong undercurrent of anti-Russian feeling that goes well beyond WW2, more correctly to centuries of repression ( please note that in WW2 a great many Ukrainians fought on the Soviet side...the Nazis being considered the greater/greatest evil....and do also remember that Stalin was Georgian and both Khrushchev and Brezhnev were Ukrainian so please don't see the USSR as simply a Russian system, it was much more complicated than that...)

...that being said there has been a great deal of inter-marriage over the last few years that has forced a softening of that sentiment...except of course with America's bestest friend in this conflict, the Nazi vanguard of the glorious revolution...

.... which leads me to the following question....why is it that when the US of A charges off on one of their crusades to spread freedom, democracy, and the American way of life ( usually bad food, $h!tty movies, and vacuous music...as per The Hitch post.. ) they invariably ally themselves with the scummiest, most vile elements in the local neighborhood...?...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

the "new Russia" wants to "trade" - like the rest of the world.

BTW- I didn't know Hitler invaded Poland to protect a vital gas line crossing that country to supply Europe's market....

...what!....you didn't get the memo outlining the latest revision of the historical fact....get on the programme there is a war to sell here damnit, and time is awastin'....

...on the real side...nice salvo...

Cheers

 

[python]

just in...

an exceptionally significant open letter to merkel from 10 former intelligence officers...to remind, it's the same group that called the us intelligence on on the tragic downing of hm17 embarrassing...

We the undersigned are longtime veterans of U.S. intelligence. We take the unusual step of writing this open letter to you to ensure that you have an opportunity to be briefed on our views prior to the NATO summit on September 4-5.

You need to know, for example, that accusations of a major Russian "invasion" of Ukraine appear not to be supported by reliable intelligence. Rather, the "intelligence" seems to be of the same dubious, politically "fixed" kind used 12 years ago to "justify" the U.S.-led attack on Iraq.

Hopefully, your advisers have reminded you of NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen’s checkered record for credibility. It appears to us that Rasmussen’s speeches continue to be drafted by Washington. This was abundantly clear on the day before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq when, as Danish Prime Minister, he told his Parliament: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. This is not something we just believe. We know."

Photos can be worth a thousand words; they can also deceive. We have considerable experience collecting, analyzing, and reporting on all kinds of satellite and other imagery, as well as other kinds of intelligence. Suffice it to say that the images released by NATO on August 28 provide a very flimsy basis on which to charge Russia with invading Ukraine. Sadly, they bear a strong resemblance to the images shown by Colin Powell at the UN on February 5, 2003 that, likewise, proved nothing.

shocking ? not really. just seems like honest former professionals no longer bound by lies.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/08/31/germanys-merkel-needs-to-ask-tough-questions-at-nato-summit/

 

[Amsterhammer]

It is really hard to know what to believe in view of the copious amounts of bovine excrement being offered up by both sides.

I am particularly vexed by the fact that the downed airliner 'investigation' seems to have ground to a complete halt. Where are the Kiev control tower tapes of their communication with the plane? What have the experts concluded from the black boxes? Why is the silence deafening?

 

[blutto]

Why is the silence deafening?

....curious, is that a rhetorical question, or do you really have no idea?....

Cheers