World Politics

[python]

And the bigger the mess the bigger the slice of future oil revenue we should demand to help sort it out ...

oil revenue is only one, albeit an important aspect of the economic relations to be negotiated, should the divorce take place... i reason, that both sides are civil enough to avoid antagonizing each other by 'demands'. the scots have some weak negotiating points (currency, bloated public sector) as well as strong ones (the uk nuclear fleet/defense facilities, oil). no one will benefit by emulating the kind of convo another set of 'brothers' (the ukrainians and the russians) are having atm.

somehow, it seems to me the old traditions and wisdom may prevail in the last moment. it makes most sense.

 

[Jagartrott]

Mostly, it's fear of change that wins the day.
Scotland has a unique chance now to set its own course. I hope they take it.

 

[del1962]

Go Scotland, liberate yourself from that neo-liberal, class-based society!

What back to the Laird and his humble crofters

Anyway wasn't it a Scot Adam Smith who first advocated neo-Liberalism.

On a more serious note, what annoys me is Scots complain about being ruled by Westminster who have no interets in Scotland when two of the past three PMs where Scottish, they seem to have short memories.

 

[TheSpud]

What back to the Laird and his humble crofters

Anyway wasn't it a Scot Adam Smith who first advocated neo-Liberalism.

On a more serious note, what annoys me is Scots complain about being ruled by Westminster who have no interets in Scotland when two of the past three PMs where Scottish, they seem to have short memories.

And that they have been ruled by parties they didnt vote for, which from 1997-2010 wasnt true due to the number of Labour MPs in Scotland. They seem to forget that it was a UK election they were voting in - its the same for other parts of the UK, and a silly argument in my view.

Personally I dont think independence will be good for them, but its their choice and we (non Scots) should respect it. If Salmond was really brave he'd have asked Cameron for a UK wide referendum - it may have helped his cause ... there are plenty of people I know who would happily cut them free.

 

[TheSpud]

oil revenue is only one, albeit an important aspect of the economic relations to be negotiated, should the divorce take place... i reason, that both sides are civil enough to avoid antagonizing each other by 'demands'. the scots have some weak negotiating points (currency, bloated public sector) as well as strong ones (the uk nuclear fleet/defense facilities, oil). no one will benefit by emulating the kind of convo another set of 'brothers' (the ukrainians and the russians) are having atm.

somehow, it seems to me the old traditions and wisdom may prevail in the last moment. it makes most sense.

I agree - civilised negotiation is the way forward. Frustration from my side at what seems to be Salmond wanting his cake and eating it : the oil is theirs, the banking debt is ours!

 

[Ferminal]

Anyway wasn't it a Scot Adam Smith who first advocated neo-Liberalism.

Classical =/= neoliberal.

 

[RetroActive]

Follow the Money; Follow the Oil
How the West Created the Islamic State
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/12/how-the-west-created-the-islamic-state/

 

[Amsterhammer]

Follow the Money; Follow the Oil
How the West Created the Islamic State
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/12/how-the-west-created-the-islamic-state/

Brilliant find, thanks for posting!

 

[RetroActive]

Brilliant find, thanks for posting!

Yeah, no problem. There's a bunch of good articles on Counterpunch today, been reading all morning...

 

[Hawkwood]

What back to the Laird and his humble crofters

Anyway wasn't it a Scot Adam Smith who first advocated neo-Liberalism.

On a more serious note, what annoys me is Scots complain about being ruled by Westminster who have no interets in Scotland when two of the past three PMs where Scottish, they seem to have short memories.

Blair and Cameron are both Scottish names, Brown of course is Scottish.

 

[blutto]

....nice to see some progress on the MH 17 investigation file....see below a link by an article by David Lindorff on the NYT response....the following is a especially interesting bit...the whole article is a good read....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"None of this kind of thinking enters into the Times article. Nor does it mention the report’s statement that investigators are still seeking more information, including the recordings of air-traffic controllers’ conversations with both Flight 17 and military aircraft at the time of the shoot-down -- recordings which were confiscated by Ukrainian officials and which have not been provided to the Dutch team."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....this despite the white hat side claiming the report being published showed that the pro-Putinistsa faction was crazy to see the MH 17 shoot down as a Western plot because the report proves everything was above board ( the good side has made claims those tapes, which were a major point in the shoot-down aftermath, were part of the basis of the report...ergo the Putinistas were just conspiracy nuts...or common Commie stooges...)...maybe those tapes will be folded over into the investigation later...but until they are, the investigation is missing a major bit of info...

...from... http://thiscantbehappening.net/node/2454

Cheers

 

[rhubroma]

Follow the Money; Follow the Oil
How the West Created the Islamic State
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/12/how-the-west-created-the-islamic-state/

Then there's Luttwak's cynical approach to conflict.

Give war a chance in Syria. What the US strategist doesn't say, though has elsewhere, is arm everyone and let them blow themselves up perpetually.

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/142736/should-the-u-s-hope-for-a-draw-in-syrian-war

 

[RetroActive]

Then there's Luttwak's cynical approach to conflict.

Give war a chance in Syria. What the US strategist doesn't say, though has elsewhere, is arm everyone and let them blow themselves up perpetually.

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/142736/should-the-u-s-hope-for-a-draw-in-syrian-war

Appears to be the strategy. Interesting read (interview), cynical - check.

 

[del1962]

Blair and Cameron are both Scottish names, Brown of course is Scottish.

As is Tony B

 

[The_Juan]

[...]Excerpts from Pdt Clinton's speech when receiving the Karlspreis in 2000:

"European unity really is producing something new under the sun -- common institutions that are bigger than the nation-state, and at the same time, a devolution of democratic authority downward. Scotland and Wales have their own parliaments. This week, Northern Ireland, where my family has its roots, restored its new government. Europe is alive with the sound of ancient place names being spoken again -- Catalonia, Piedmont, Lombardy, Silesia, Transylvania, Uthenia -- not in the name of separatism, but in the spirit of healthy pride and heritage.[...]

Having a minor interest in social studies and traveled a very good part of the United States of America, I still find it amazing how much of a weak hand US presidents hold when talking about anything non-economic.

Here we have president Bill Clinton, who hails from Arkansas, one of the most racist states in the Union. A state where, to this day, many towns are extremely hostile to non-whites (majority of these towns exhibited signs like "nïgger, don't let the sun set on your black a$$ in [whatever town]" up until 20 years ago, when the last one was taken down-The Ku Klux Klan still has its world headquarters in Harrison though,) and Billy-Boy is talking about democratic "devolution" when talking about what the UE means to Europe. I mean, it is the very same Europe of "ancient place names" that exported these democracy-driven individuals that made the state where Bill Clinton comes from such a viciously hostile place to live in.

A well-known fact is that Arkansas was settled by, mainly, Irish, Scots and Welsh, so when I hear the Scots call for independence I can't help but find similarities between their unwillingness to coexist with other peoples, with the Scottish/Irish/Welsh's settlers exclusive ways/manners. At the very least politically speaking.

There is really nothing nice or democratic about these separatist movements. The root of their discontent usually hides an intense inferiority complex.

 

[ferryman]

As is Tony B

Yes he is but I won't go into that or some of the complete drivel you have posted in this thread.

The simple fact is, Scotland is voting on taking on it's own financial future. Scotland is one of the richest countries in the world (including the UK). The oil revenue, which is just a drop in the ocean in this argument (excuse the pun) has been squandered by repeated governments we haven't voted for. Staying on that small point, we don't want to be part of it being used to update a new 20/30 billion (yes BILLION) pounds nuclear deterrent on our door step.

You keep thinking the UK is propping Scotland up, the simple fact is quite the opposite. Hence the desperate coalition of the Union's political parties up here (who the lead party have 1 member in Scotland, yes ONE).

In summary, looks like we will both be happy when it's a YES on Thursday.

 

[ferryman]

Having a minor interest in social studies and traveled a very good part of the United States of America, I still find it amazing how much of a weak hand US presidents hold when talking about anything non-economic.

Here we have president Bill Clinton, who hails from Arkansas, one of the most racist states in the Union. A state where, to this day, many towns are extremely hostile to non-whites (majority of these towns exhibited signs like "nïgger, don't let the sun set on your black a$$ in [whatever town]" up until 20 years ago, when the last one was taken down-The Ku Klux Klan still has its world headquarters in Harrison though,) and Billy-Boy is talking about democratic "devolution" when talking about what the UE means to Europe. I mean, it is the very same Europe of "ancient place names" that exported these democracy-driven individuals that made the state where Bill Clinton comes from such a viciously hostile place to live in.

A well-known fact is that Arkansas was settled by, mainly, Irish, Scots and Welsh, so when I hear the Scots call for independence I can't help but find similarities between their unwillingness to coexist with other peoples, with the Scottish/Irish/Welsh's settlers exclusive ways/manners. At the very least politically speaking.

There is really nothing nice or democratic about these separatist movements. The root of their discontent usually hides an intense inferiority complex.

Maybe read up before posting an insulting post like this. There is nothing separatist or nationalistic or anything remotely racially driven in Scotland's vote for independence. It's all about managing what we have as best we have by the people who can do it best. That includes allowing everyone a vote who lives in Scotland. Of whom there are 100,000s of non natural born Scots, which I 1000% welcome.

I certainly don't see that as an complex in any way. I'm sorry you live in a place that you have had the experience to see it otherwise.

 

[TheSpud]

(who the lead party have 1 member in Scotland, yes ONE).

People always make a lot of this but seem to forget that in May 2010 it was a UK election for a UK government - therefore national borders should be irrelevant. Anyway as we know there is also the Scottish Parliament that is for Scottish affairs. What is undemocratic is that Scottish MPs in Westminster can vote on things affecting England & Wales - the so called West Lothian question. I've always wondered why there was a need for a separate set of elected politicians - why not just have the Westminster MPs meet separately for 2 days a week on things for Scotland?

If there is a yes vote on Thursday this will become an increasing problem with 59 MPs potentially in limbo but still able to determine the outcome of the election in May 2015 and any laws passed before Independence. Interesting times ahead potentially ...

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Maybe read up before posting an insulting post like this. There is nothing separatist or nationalistic or anything remotely racially driven in Scotland's vote for independence. It's all about managing what we have as best we have by the people who can do it best. That includes allowing everyone a vote who lives in Scotland. Of whom there are 100,000s of non natural born Scots, which I 1000% welcome.

I certainly don't see that as an complex in any way. I'm sorry you live in a place that you have had the experience to see it otherwise.

Good luck on Thursday..my family(2 generations ago) is a small clan up east of Loch Ness..around Inverness(Chisholms)...I would like to see Scotland be removed from Great Britian once and for all. They have had their thumb on Scotland since what, Edward the First? Glad to see the various 'clans' of Scotland finally working together to form a free Scotland.

Alba gu bràth

 

[laurel1969]

What you forget is that (probably) most Scots will vote no.

This isn't the 17th century.

 

[laurel1969]

Yes he is but I won't go into that or some of the complete drivel you have posted in this thread.

The simple fact is, Scotland is voting on taking on it's own financial future. Scotland is one of the richest countries in the world (including the UK). The oil revenue, which is just a drop in the ocean in this argument (excuse the pun) has been squandered by repeated governments we haven't voted for. Staying on that small point, we don't want to be part of it being used to update a new 20/30 billion (yes BILLION) pounds nuclear deterrent on our door step.

You keep thinking the UK is propping Scotland up, the simple fact is quite the opposite. Hence the desperate coalition of the Union's political parties up here (who the lead party have 1 member in Scotland, yes ONE).

In summary, looks like we will both be happy when it's a YES on Thursday.

The MAJORITY of British people get a government they haven't voted for. That is democracy, Mon Ami.

After the independence vote, a huge proportion of Scots will be living in a state they don't want. That's democracy.

As for statistics and dammed lies, they are coming out thick and fast from both sides.

 

[blutto]

...well for starters the Kuomintang ( the US of A's first, and arguably, biggest post WW2 foreign policy blunder...and btw the blueprint for most subsequent blunders ) ....the Shah's regime in Iran.... the friendly folks you are, and have been, in bed with in Egypt .... that dog's breakfast of far right regimes that the US of A has backed in Southern and Central America....and more recently, your fine drug running allies/friends in Afghanistan, The Northern Alliance....the "freedom" fighters in Syria...the scummy vanguard of the glorious revolution in The Ukraine....those wonderful democracy loving totally non-corrupt guys in P****stan ..... then there are your super special friends the Saudis..... ( and btw the last two have more than a passing relationship to this thang called 9-11....)

...and yeah you got me on the scale thing ( though I would bet you if you added up all of the destruction that those interventions have wreaked it may approach the Nazi totals....I mean Viet Nam was a real doozy weren't it and there are still people dying from the Agent Orange disaster(...but hey it was worth it because those people you were fighting for were just so straight arrow...and lets not get into the Khmer Rouge thang because that connection is a little vague... ) but in their own little fiefdoms they were just as vicious and bloodthirsty....like they had the "right" attitude they just didn't have the means...

Cheers

...ooops...many sorries...but forgot another highlight in the ongoing US of A push to bring freedom and democracy to the world ( along with of course McD'S and the prerequisite massive slaughter of innocent folks )....Indonesia...

...oh and btw when are youse guys going to give Hawaii back to its rightful owners?...

Cheers

 

[python]

i have long been partial to the uk. in an anglophile way...i have also always harboured special interest towards everything celtic, particularly the scots. thus my personal opinion on the looming divorce is mixed... whilst i still don't understand many economic arguments on either side - not for the lack of trying - on a purely intuitive level i see the divorce as a lose-lose affair.

below are 3 emotion-free, nuts-and-bolts articles that have substantially increased my personal understanding of the fundamental economic and military issues involved in the divorce.

as usual, the financial and business media in the west showed most substance. including about the nuclear fleet fate normally subject to scare tactic and void of any objective look.

Independent Scotland’s prosperity hinges on five challenges
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/33f0e74e-3a6c-11e4-8ee4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DNkgpeGj

Scotland faces running gauntlet to join EU
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/195ffc62-343b-11e4-8832-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DNkgpeGj

How Does The British Military Split With An Independent Scotland?
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-does-british-military-split-independent-scotland-1682076

 

[del1962]

Yes he is but I won't go into that or some of the complete drivel you have posted in this thread.

The simple fact is, Scotland is voting on taking on it's own financial future. Scotland is one of the richest countries in the world (including the UK). The oil revenue, which is just a drop in the ocean in this argument (excuse the pun) has been squandered by repeated governments we haven't voted for. Staying on that small point, we don't want to be part of it being used to update a new 20/30 billion (yes BILLION) pounds nuclear deterrent on our door step.

You keep thinking the UK is propping Scotland up, the simple fact is quite the opposite. Hence the desperate coalition of the Union's political parties up here (who the lead party have 1 member in Scotland, yes ONE).

In summary, looks like we will both be happy when it's a YES on Thursday.

How can the oil revenue have been squandered by repeated governments you haven't voted for, when the scots largest vote in 3 of the last 4 elections went to the party in power in westminster.

You really believe that Scotland is propping up the rest of the UK, complete nonsense

 

[laurel1969]

The south-east of England props up the entire nation.

The Scots won't vote for independence, I suspect, despite a lacklustre campaign from the Nos and a selectively mendacious and emotion-based campaign from the Yes.

Personally, I think Scotland will be f****d if they part, and it will take no more than a decade. If they stay, they get loads of concessions funded by the rest of the UK.