World Politics

[Hawkwood]

Correct, in the same way that Cuba is in South America.

Not even close. Apart from the fact that Cuba is an island, while Scotland is part of the main land mass of the biggest island in the British archipelago, there is another factor. The term `British' can refer to the groups of Celts, Ancient Britons, who inhabited the British Isles including Scotland and Ireland in Roman times, there was also a related group in Brittany. I think the French term `Grande Bretagne' arose to differentiate between the Celts in `Bretagne' and those in `Grande Bretagne'. The Celts/Ancient Britains were pushed to the westerly parts of the British Isles, Cornwall (with close historic links to the Celts in Brittany), Ireland, and Wales, and to the north, Scotland. Some groups of Welsh Celts ended up in Scotland. This was made more or less permanent by the Anglo-Saxons (English) who invaded and kept the Celts pushed to the periphery. Some DNA work about ten years ago showed there is still the remnants of an East (Saxon), West (Celt) divide in the UK.

I see myself more as `British' as my ancestry is (in order of proportion) Welsh, Irish, Cornish, English and Scottish, and by that I'm making a statement that I think, based on my ancestry work, that I'm mainly Celtic rather than Anglo-Saxon.

 

[laurel1969]

I'd agree with you on the bias. Its pretty stark. Acceptable perhaps for newspapers as the all issue an editorial stance but not so for the BBC which should be neutral.

Unfortunately the BBC was castrated by the inquiry following the Andrew Gilligan affair.

As for bribes, I wouldn't put it like that. Its concessions. As it is Scotland gets extra funding per capita than England. Plus it has devolved powers and a local democracy that the English don't enjoy.

England has a vested interest in the Status quo. We don't want an economic disaster zone on our doorstep in a decade.

 

[hrotha]

There isn't really a single Scottish Dialect though, someone from Edinborough sounds very different than someone from Oban, who both sound very different from someone from Aberdeen etc.

Well duh. There isn't a single English dialect either. All languages are conventions that comprehend a dialect continuum.

 

[TheSpud]

I'd agree with you on the bias. Its pretty stark. Acceptable perhaps for newspapers as the all issue an editorial stance but not so for the BBC which should be neutral.

Unfortunately the BBC was castrated by the inquiry following the Andrew Gilligan affair.

As for bribes, I wouldn't put it like that. Its concessions. As it is Scotland gets extra funding per capita than England. Plus it has devolved powers and a local democracy that the English don't enjoy.

England has a vested interest in the Status quo. We don't want an economic disaster zone on our doorstep in a decade.

Well we've had the Euro on our doorstep for the last decade ...

 

[Jagartrott]

As for bribes, I wouldn't put it like that. Its concessions. As it is Scotland gets extra funding per capita than England. Plus it has devolved powers and a local democracy that the English don't enjoy.

Yes, but the lightning pace with which such pledges have been given, right when the 'no' vote started to lose momentum, is pretty remarkable, isn't it?

 

[TheSpud]

Not even close. Apart from the fact that Cuba is an island, while Scotland is part of the main land mass of the biggest island in the British archipelago, there is another factor. The term `British' can refer to the groups of Celts, Ancient Britons, who inhabited the British Isles including Scotland and Ireland in Roman times, there was also a related group in Brittany. I think the French term `Grande Bretagne' arose to differentiate between the Celts in `Bretagne' and those in `Grande Bretagne'. The Celts/Ancient Britains were pushed to the westerly parts of the British Isles, Cornwall (with close historic links to the Celts in Brittany), Ireland, and Wales, and to the north, Scotland. Some groups of Welsh Celts ended up in Scotland. This was made more or less permanent by the Anglo-Saxons (English) who invaded and kept the Celts pushed to the periphery. Some DNA work about ten years ago showed there is still the remnants of an East (Saxon), West (Celt) divide in the UK.

I see myself more as `British' as my ancestry is (in order of proportion) Welsh, Irish, Cornish, English and Scottish, and by that I'm making a statement that I think, based on my ancestry work, that I'm mainly Celtic rather than Anglo-Saxon.

Probably a bad example on my part with Cuba - just trying to agree on the Archipelago bit, i.e. that Scotland would still be part of the Great Britain landmass. In the same way that Ireland is part of the British Isles (even Wikipedia says so - must be true!).

I'm a Celt myself - Welsh parentage but born in England, although as a child I had bright blonde hair and blue eyes so maybe I'm Saxon. Not really sure what I see myself as - for Rugby I am Welsh (mainly to wind up my friends) however in 2003 I was delighted that England won the World Cup, but in 2011 was gutted when Wales lost in the semis. For football I am English. If I was abroad and someone asked me then I'd probably say English. But I also see myself as British and support the other home nations when England / Wales aren't playing.

Personally I don't think Independence will work for the Scottish (on the limited information we have been given) but they have earned the democratic right for the referendum by voting in an SNP government at Holyrood.

It also annoys me that people are having a go at Cameron for 'allowing' the referendum to take place - how the hell could he deny it? That really would have been undemocratic. Maybe he could have insisted that there was a UK wide referendum, but that would have opened a can of worms in my view. What if Scotland said Yes but England, Wales, etc. said No. And what if Wales said Yes but England No?

As an aside I'd be interested in knowing what the Irish think about it, and comparing it with the NI situation - so may competing views on whether NI should be UK / non-UK / part of Ireland.

 

[Hawkwood]

Probably a bad example on my part with Cuba - just trying to agree on the Archipelago bit, i.e. that Scotland would still be part of the Great Britain landmass. In the same way that Ireland is part of the British Isles (even Wikipedia says so - must be true!).

I'm a Celt myself - Welsh parentage but born in England, although as a child I had bright blonde hair and blue eyes so maybe I'm Saxon. Not really sure what I see myself as - for Rugby I am Welsh (mainly to wind up my friends) however in 2003 I was delighted that England won the World Cup, but in 2011 was gutted when Wales lost in the semis. For football I am English. If I was abroad and someone asked me then I'd probably say English. But I also see myself as British and support the other home nations when England / Wales aren't playing.

Personally I don't think Independence will work for the Scottish (on the limited information we have been given) but they have earned the democratic right for the referendum by voting in an SNP government at Holyrood. I

It also annoys me that people are having a go at Cameron for 'allowing' the referendum to take place - how the hell could he deny it? That really would have been undemocratic. Maybe he could have insisted that there was a UK wide referendum, but that would have opened a can of worms in my view. What if Scotland said Yes but England, Wales, etc. said No. And what if Wales said Yes but England No?

As an aside I'd be interested in knowing what the Irish think about it, and comparing it with the NI situation - so may competing views on whether NI should be UK / non-UK / part of Ireland.

Are you from North or South Welsh parentage? My Welsh ancestors were mid Welsh who moved to the Bala area. My living relatives all speak Welsh. I'm fascinated by the whole question of who are the `British'? Years ago I saw a human migration map for the British Isles that conjectured what had happened around the 6th century, it looked like clothes in a washing machine, with the Welsh moving to Scotland, the Scots to Ireland and such like.

 

[TheSpud]

Yes, but the lightning pace with which such pledges have been given, right when the 'no' vote started to lose momentum, is pretty remarkable, isn't it?

I think the word we are all looking for is panic ...

Its funny analysing all the outcomes and who (politically) it will affect.

Technically Labour have more to lose than anyone - no Scottish MPs will make it harder for them to win in Westminster.

The opposite is true for the Conservatives.

The Liberals are half dead up there anyway for going in to the Coalition so Yes or No probably is about the same for them.

What will be interesting is what Salmond does if the No vote wins. Will he accept defeat and resign? After all his one main objective of leading the SNP (esp. after winning in Holyrood) was to deliver independence. If he fails then surely he must go - if he doesn't I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a leadership challenge. What if No wins by, say, less than 0.5%? Will he go crackers and try and unilaterally declare Independence?

We really could be in for an interesting few months. I don't buy all this stuff that there will be a financial meltdown if it is a Yes - everything will be the same on Friday as it was on Thursday since Independence wont actually happen for another 18 months.

 

[laurel1969]

Are you from North or South Welsh parentage? My Welsh ancestors were mid Welsh who moved to the Bala area. My living relatives all speak Welsh. I'm fascinated by the whole question of who are the `British'? Years ago I saw a human migration map for the British Isles that conjectured what had happened around the 6th century, it looked like clothes in a washing machine, with the Welsh moving to Scotland, the Scots to Ireland and such like.

Its funny that you should mention that. The movement of the Scots to the northern part of Ireland is a significant factor in all the Troubles. If they hadn't, the protestant community would have been smaller and the government that relinquished the south of Ireland back to the Irish may not have kept back the six counties.

 

[hrotha]

Are you from North or South Welsh parentage? My Welsh ancestors were mid Welsh who moved to the Bala area. My living relatives all speak Welsh. I'm fascinated by the whole question of who are the `British'? Years ago I saw a human migration map for the British Isles that conjectured what had happened around the 6th century, it looked like clothes in a washing machine, with the Welsh moving to Scotland, the Scots to Ireland and such like.

I think that map might have got things mixed up. The Welsh didn't move to or from Scotland; Scotland, or Alba, was inhabited by native "Welsh" (Old English wealh, plural wealas, a general Germanic word to refer to Romance and Celtic speakers, as in Wales, Wallonia, Gaul, Wallachia, Cornwall and others). For centuries, the Welsh from all across Britain, including modern Wales, Cornwall and Alba (Scotland), saw themselves as one people. The Welsh of Strathclyde (*Cumri in their own Old Welsh dialect; compare with Cymry) would eventually develop a separate identity and be known as Cumbrians.

The Scots were originally an Irish, Goidelic-speaking tribe. At the time they settled Alba, as I said, that land was populated by Brythonic-speaking peoples, who the early Anglo-Saxons called brittas or wealas. The Scots then became a ruling elite, with the population remaining Brythonic-speaking for centuries. However, a process of Goidelization started, and eventually the common people were mainly Goidelic speakers (that would become the Scottish Gaelic language, which didn't split off from Irish until the early Modern period). Therefore, by c. 1000, the Scots (now commonly called scottas in Old English) were, for the most part, a Goidelic-speaking folk of Brythonic stock who had always been native to Alba and hadn't really invaded from Ireland - they had just absorbed a foreign people and inherited their name. Later Scottish migrations to Ireland are a different matter.

And that's without taking into account heavy Norse and Northumbrian influence in certain areas.

 

[TheSpud]

Its funny that you should mention that. The movement of the Scots to the northern part of Ireland is a significant factor in all the Troubles. If they hadn't, the protestant community would have been smaller and the government that relinquished the south of Ireland back to the Irish may not have kept back the six counties.

Hence the issues in Glasgow with Celtic v Rangers.

 

[Hawkwood]

Its funny that you should mention that. The movement of the Scots to the northern part of Ireland is a significant factor in all the Troubles. If they hadn't, the protestant community would have been smaller and the government that relinquished the south of Ireland back to the Irish may not have kept back the six counties.

It's even messier than that! The early emigrations aren't directly linked to the Troubles, it was the later ones, 17th c and later, that are. However even that isn't that clear, as I've read that a significant number of the Scots who moved to Ireland, were in fact originally Irish who'd emigrated to Scotland. There was also a big movement of Irish people to Scotland in the 19th c, and into England (including my Irish forebears who settled in the Liverpool area), and obviously to the US and other countries. I don't have the figures, but I suspect there are more people of Irish ancestry living in the UK than in Ireland. I also suspect there are more people of Scottish descent living in England than in Scotland. Certainly where I work I feel like I'm surrounded by Scottish people, and I'm in Kent.

 

[TheSpud]

Are you from North or South Welsh parentage? My Welsh ancestors were mid Welsh who moved to the Bala area. My living relatives all speak Welsh. I'm fascinated by the whole question of who are the `British'? Years ago I saw a human migration map for the British Isles that conjectured what had happened around the 6th century, it looked like clothes in a washing machine, with the Welsh moving to Scotland, the Scots to Ireland and such like.

South Wales - Pembrokeshire to be precise, one of the more 'English' areas I would say especially if you compare it to the southern valleys or the north west.

Went to North Wales near Anglesey for a wedding earlier this year - the scenery was stunning, just took about 6 hours to get there! I was so far over to the west that my phone was roaming on to the Irish networks. Heavy Welsh speaking area - in fact I did get a few odd glances from people when speaking in the shops. Luckily my daughter rescued me by asking why I didn't speak Welsh given that her Nana is from there ...

 

[TheSpud]

It's even messier than that! The early emigrations aren't directly linked to the Troubles, it was the later ones, 17th c and later, that are. However even that isn't that clear, as I've read that a significant number of the Scots who moved to Ireland, were in fact originally Irish who'd emigrated to Scotland. There was also a big movement of Irish people to Scotland in the 19th c, and into England (including my Irish forebears who settled in the Liverpool area), and obviously to the US and other countries. I don't have the figures, but I suspect there are more people of Irish ancestry living in the UK than in Ireland. I also suspect there are more people of Scottish descent living in England than in Scotland. Certainly where I work I feel like I'm surrounded by Scottish people, and I'm in Kent.

That last sentence has just made me laugh out loud!

 

[Hawkwood]

I think that map might have got things mixed up. The Welsh didn't move to or from Scotland; Scotland, or Alba, was inhabited by native "Welsh" (Old English wealh, plural wealas, a general Germanic word to refer to Romance and Celtic speakers, as in Wales, Wallonia, Gaul, Wallachia, Cornwall and others). For centuries, the Welsh from all across Britain, including modern Wales, Cornwall and Alba (Scotland), saw themselves as one people. The Welsh of Strathclyde (*Cumri in their own Old Welsh dialect; compare with Cymry) would eventually develop a separate identity and be known as Cumbrians.

The Scots were originally an Irish, Goidelic-speaking tribe. At the time they settled Alba, as I said, that land was populated by Brythonic-speaking peoples, who the early Anglo-Saxons called brittas or wealas. The Scots then became a ruling elite, with the population remaining Brythonic-speaking for centuries. However, a process of Goidelization started, and eventually the common people were mainly Goidelic speakers (that would become the Scottish Gaelic language, which didn't split off from Irish until the early Modern period). Therefore, by c. 1000, the Scots (now commonly called scottas in Old English) were, for the most part, a Goidelic-speaking folk of Brythonic stock who had always been native to Alba and hadn't really invaded from Ireland - they had just absorbed a foreign people and inherited their name. Later Scottish migrations to Ireland are a different matter.

And that's without taking into account heavy Norse and Northumbrian influence in certain areas.

It was a long time since I saw that map And thank you for your summary of the history. I grew up on the Wirral, and there's been some interesting work on the placenames showing a slightly mixed up interface between Norse and Anglo-Saxon settlements on the peninsular. DNA research has shown that there is still a genetic trail left by the Vikings there.

 

[python]

the last 2 pages of posts show conclusively how confusing ones identity and ancestry can be when your home is british isles. yet, nationalism (confused by some with ancestry) will be a huge factor in the referendum, whichever way it'll tilt...

 

[Hawkwood]

the last 2 pages of posts show conclusively how confusing ones identity and ancestry can be when your home is british isles. yet, nationalism (confused by some with ancestry) will be a huge factor in the referendum, whichever way it'll tilt...

Yep, it can be very confusing being British, or is it English, no wait....

In my area the people flying the Union Jack will say they're English and not British. I'm technically English by where I was born, but prefer to be British as this appears to be my ancestry.

 

[ToreBear]

Good luck to the Scots tomorrow!

I hope the Scots vote yes, so all this FUD will be proven to be nothing more than hot air.

Otherwise I have no bone in this.

FUD=Fear uncertainty and doubt

Things like:
- Cant join the EU/EEA
- Cant use the pound etc.

Scotland is too integrated into the EU and the UK to be shut out. It would just hurt both sides. At the most I see a delay in getting voting rights in EU institutions. That would mean Scotland could end up like Norway for a while.


I think the Scots will do fine being independent. The rest of the UK might not until they put their class system to death. Perhaps an end to Etonian rule would help.

Anyway good luck to everyone in the UK no matter the results.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

You think Spain would allow Scotland to re-enter the EU without any hassle?

 

[ToreBear]

You think Spain would allow Scotland to re-enter the EU without any hassle?

There is always hassle, but the pressure brought on by the other countries would force them to back down.

 

[Hawkwood]

There is always hassle, but the pressure brought on by the other countries would force them to back down.

Would it be that simple? Clearly the Spanish don't want to see breakaway groups/countries get an immediate entry into the EU, but there would be other issues such as coming up to the EU's economic tests. Salmond would also have the interesting problem of trying to keep the Shetland Islanders onboard, when this idea was mooted decades ago they said they didn't feel Scottish.

 

[blutto]

....find below an article that looks at the money trail that runs thru the glorious revolution in The Ukraine....the author has some legitimate "bonafides" and is not a Western media stooge....a good informative read...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/09/the-imfs-new-cold-war-loan-to-ukraine/

Cheers

 

[ToreBear]

Would it be that simple? Clearly the Spanish don't want to see breakaway groups/countries get an immediate entry into the EU, but there would be other issues such as coming up to the EU's economic tests. Salmond would also have the interesting problem of trying to keep the Shetland Islanders onboard, when this idea was mooted decades ago they said they didn't feel Scottish.

Spain can just refuse to allow the regions to leave Spain. The UK has approved of the Scots getting a choice, so it's a bit different.

The EU economic tests shouldn't be a problem. What gave you the idea that that would be a challenge?

As for the Shetlanders, I don't think that they identify themselves as Welsh, Irish or English either. I'm sure they will figure something out.

 

[Frosty]

As for the Shetlanders, I don't think that they identify themselves as Welsh, Irish or English either. I'm sure they will figure something out.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael

 

[laurel1969]

I think the Scots will do fine being independent. The rest of the UK might not until they put their class system to death. Perhaps an end to Etonian rule would help.

Sadly an independent Scotland means likelihood of perpetual right-wing government in the UK

Anyway good luck to everyone in the UK no matter the results.

Thanks