World Politics

[King Of The Wolds]

England has a vested interest in the Status quo. We don't want an economic disaster zone on our doorstep in a decade.

Worse than that - we'll end up paying for the separation. Who's going to move the nuclear warheads back? Who's going to pay for the breakup and re-distribution of shared resources? Who's going to pay for the administrative effort? The tax payers in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. As an Englishman, and a stakeholder in this, I'm outraged that I don't get a vote.

 

[python]

one of the most significant and interesting aspects of the yes vote, and perhaps the FUTURE of scotland (according to most polls) is that young scots predominantly will vote for independence...

otoh, i'd reason the undecided - the group reportedly numbering almost 10% of the total electorate and likely to determine the referendum outcome - supposedly is composed of relatively fewer 16-17-18 etc year olds...meaning the resource of the pro-independence faction still capable of influencing the voting outcome may be relatively less numerous.

at least, so i think.

 

[ferryman]

I hope the Scots vote yes, so all this FUD will be proven to be nothing more than hot air.

Otherwise I have no bone in this.

FUD=Fear uncertainty and doubt

Things like:
- Cant join the EU/EEA
- Cant use the pound etc.

Scotland is too integrated into the EU and the UK to be shut out. It would just hurt both sides. At the most I see a delay in getting voting rights in EU institutions. That would mean Scotland could end up like Norway for a while.


I think the Scots will do fine being independent. The rest of the UK might not until they put their class system to death. Perhaps an end to Etonian rule would help.

Anyway good luck to everyone in the UK no matter the results.

Really good post. I hope you aren't too dismayed when I say the YES campaign are holding up Norway as the best example why Scotland would be a thriving country on its own (maybe that's because we are all probably half Norwegian anyway, pesky Vikings)

 

[laurel1969]

Salmond has been peddling a message based on hope rather than awkward realities, and he's tapped into testosterone-led nationalism.

I'm hearing from Scottish relatives that there has been active intimidation from Yes supporters.

 

[ferryman]

I think that map might have got things mixed up. The Welsh didn't move to or from Scotland; Scotland, or Alba, was inhabited by native "Welsh" (Old English wealh, plural wealas, a general Germanic word to refer to Romance and Celtic speakers, as in Wales, Wallonia, Gaul, Wallachia, Cornwall and others). For centuries, the Welsh from all across Britain, including modern Wales, Cornwall and Alba (Scotland), saw themselves as one people. The Welsh of Strathclyde (*Cumri in their own Old Welsh dialect; compare with Cymry) would eventually develop a separate identity and be known as Cumbrians.

The Scots were originally an Irish, Goidelic-speaking tribe. At the time they settled Alba, as I said, that land was populated by Brythonic-speaking peoples, who the early Anglo-Saxons called brittas or wealas. The Scots then became a ruling elite, with the population remaining Brythonic-speaking for centuries. However, a process of Goidelization started, and eventually the common people were mainly Goidelic speakers (that would become the Scottish Gaelic language, which didn't split off from Irish until the early Modern period). Therefore, by c. 1000, the Scots (now commonly called scottas in Old English) were, for the most part, a Goidelic-speaking folk of Brythonic stock who had always been native to Alba and hadn't really invaded from Ireland - they had just absorbed a foreign people and inherited their name. Later Scottish migrations to Ireland are a different matter.

And that's without taking into account heavy Norse and Northumbrian influence in certain areas.

No disrespect H but that is a bit of a ramble and pretty much wrong. Question your source - what was it?

 

[hrotha]

No disrespect H but that is a bit of a ramble and pretty much wrong. Question your source - what was it?

There's no single source, it's stuff I've picked up from reading many sources on early medieval history and linguistics. What part(s) do you take issue with?

edit: if it's the apparent omission of the Picts, allow me to clarify that they were counted among the Britons by the Anglo-Saxons.

 

[TheSpud]

The rest of the UK might not until they put their class system to death. Perhaps an end to Etonian rule would help.

Ironically its the guys at the top of the 'Left' that make such a big thing about class and how the down trodden workers are losing out. The same people who live in multi-million pound houses in Notting Hill or are high up in Unions getting 10% annual pay rises, incredibly generous pensions, etc. at the expense of their members.

The people at the top (on all sides) have their snouts in the trough - its just that some are more hypocritical about it than others ...

 

[TheSpud]

There is always hassle, but the pressure brought on by the other countries would force them to back down.

It will depend on how much of a duty / levy the elite want to pay on their Scotch / Steak / Smoked Salmon ...

 

[python]

Worse than that - we'll end up paying for the separation. Who's going to move the nuclear warheads back? Who's going to pay for the breakup and re-distribution of shared resources? Who's going to pay for the administrative effort? The tax payers in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. As an Englishman, and a stakeholder in this, I'm outraged that I don't get a vote.

you hit the nail on the head. i tried to bring attention to this earlier. sadly, most don't pay attention to the REAL reasons why nato and other members of the establishment are so united.

yes, the nuclear subs and the nuclear weapons are a huge bargaining chip most either pretend not talk about, to exploit emotionally or are indeed too limited to appreciate.

 

[TheSpud]

Sadly an independent Scotland means likelihood of perpetual right-wing government in the UK

Cant wait ...

 

[Hawkwood]

I think the Scots will do fine being independent. The rest of the UK might not until they put their class system to death. Perhaps an end to Etonian rule would help.

Not sure that there isn't an even stronger class system in Scotland, and one that is resisting change, see this headline from the Independent

`Imagine a feudal country where 432 families own half the land. Welcome to Scotland'

 

[ferryman]

Worse than that - we'll end up paying for the separation. Who's going to move the nuclear warheads back? Who's going to pay for the breakup and re-distribution of shared resources? Who's going to pay for the administrative effort? The tax payers in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. As an Englishman, and a stakeholder in this, I'm outraged that I don't get a vote.

What would be your vote Englishman?

 

[ferryman]

one of the most significant and interesting aspects of the yes vote, and perhaps the FUTURE of scotland (according to most polls) is that young scots predominantly will vote for independence...

otoh, i'd reason the undecided - the group reportedly numbering almost 10% of the total electorate and likely to determine the referendum outcome - supposedly is composed of relatively fewer 16-17-18 etc year olds...meaning the resource of the pro-independence faction still capable of influencing the voting outcome may be relatively less numerous.

at least, so i think.

The youngsters won't influence the vote. They are 50/50. Who will are the quiet 'no' voters according to the NO's against the first time older voters who have registered for the first time to vote 'yes'.

 

[ferryman]

Salmond has been peddling a message based on hope rather than awkward realities, and he's tapped into testosterone-led nationalism.

I'm hearing from Scottish relatives that there has been active intimidation from Yes supporters.

This and the rest of your post is nonsense. The most of my family who are all in the NO camp have never been 'intimidated' in any way (apart from my failed attempt).

 

[ferryman]

There's no single source, it's stuff I've picked up from reading many sources on early medieval history and linguistics. What part(s) do you take issue with?

edit: if it's the apparent omission of the Picts, allow me to clarify that they were counted among the Britons by the Anglo-Saxons.

Pretty much all of it as I said. There is growing thoughts through archaeology that there is no evidence of a Scots movement from Ireland, quite the opposite (in the years we are talking about). The language is trickier but I think you are probably correct with the Britons of Alt Clut and probably the Votadini of the Lothians.

But yes the big omission are the Picts, who certainly didn't speak Welsh and who were are as most linguists are thinking now spoke a P Celtic celtic. And were the dominant group in the period your talking about.

 

[King Boonen]

Salmond has been peddling a message based on hope rather than awkward realities, and he's tapped into testosterone-led nationalism.

I'm hearing from Scottish relatives that there has been active intimidation from Yes supporters.

That is correct.

 

[ferryman]

you hit the nail on the head. i tried to bring attention to this earlier. sadly, most don't pay attention to the REAL reasons why nato and other members of the establishment are so united.

yes, the nuclear subs and the nuclear weapons are a huge bargaining chip most either pretend not talk about, to exploit emotionally or are indeed too limited to appreciate.

Python, I've never had a run in with you... until now.

There is NO bargaining over Trident. It is gone from Scotland in 6 years after a yes vote. Whether the UK want to keep it after that is their decision.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I believe that 16, or even 15 year olds have a vote? Whatever, I saw an interview with some youngsters of that age. They were quite frighteningly ignorant about actual issues, and sounded like they were voting 'yes' as a lark. I'm not pretending that these three were somehow representative for all Scots of that age, but honestly, they were embarrassingly inarticulate. All of which leads me to question the wisdom of giving people that young a vote.

 

[Sciocco]

I believe that 16, or even 15 year olds have a vote? Whatever, I saw an interview with some youngsters of that age. They were quite frighteningly ignorant about actual issues, and sounded like they were voting 'yes' as a lark. I'm not pretending that these three were somehow representative for all Scots of that age, but honestly, they were embarrassingly inarticulate. All of which leads me to question the wisdom of giving people that young a vote.

Would suck for the people of that age that are informed.

 

[laurel1969]

This and the rest of your post is nonsense. The most of my family who are all in the NO camp have never been 'intimidated' in any way (apart from my failed attempt).

It isn't all about you and your family. My family are Scottish too. I believe them.

 

[laurel1969]

I believe that 16, or even 15 year olds have a vote? Whatever, I saw an interview with some youngsters of that age. They were quite frighteningly ignorant about actual issues, and sounded like they were voting 'yes' as a lark. I'm not pretending that these three were somehow representative for all Scots of that age, but honestly, they were embarrassingly inarticulate. All of which leads me to question the wisdom of giving people that young a vote.

Why do you think Salmond is relying on emotive nationalism? All the Brave heart/Highland clearances stuff plays well to the adolescent mind.

 

[Jagartrott]

I believe that 16, or even 15 year olds have a vote? Whatever, I saw an interview with some youngsters of that age. They were quite frighteningly ignorant about actual issues, and sounded like they were voting 'yes' as a lark. I'm not pretending that these three were somehow representative for all Scots of that age, but honestly, they were embarrassingly inarticulate. All of which leads me to question the wisdom of giving people that young a vote.

You don't want to know the depth of background knowledge of many voters in any country. This isn't tied to age. I also don't believe knowledge is necessary in this election. Voting about independence should be an act of emotion, not of ratio.

 

[laurel1969]

This is what Salmond is saying now in his final rallying cry:

"We need this, we need this to happen. This time isn't about me, it isn't about the SNP or the Labour party or the Tories or any political party. It's about you, it's about your family, your hopes, your ambitions. Don't let them tell us we can't. "


Like I said. Its all about manipulating emotions with no substance. Who are the unspecified 'they'? The vote-less, unimpowered English or the Scottish majority who are saying No?

Nice try Salmon, but the thinking Scot isn't buying your rabble-rousing schtick.

 

[King Boonen]

Unfortunately Laurel, many people are. I know both Scots and English who have been abused in the street for wearing no badges in the nicer parts of Glasgow and Edinburgh. I also know people who live across from police stations, they are getting prepared...

 

[hrotha]

Pretty much all of it as I said. There is growing thoughts through archaeology that there is no evidence of a Scots movement from Ireland, quite the opposite (in the years we are talking about). The language is trickier but I think you are probably correct with the Britons of Alt Clut and probably the Votadini of the Lothians.

But yes the big omission are the Picts, who certainly didn't speak Welsh and who were are as most linguists are thinking now spoke a P Celtic celtic. And were the dominant group in the period your talking about.

Fair enough about the migration of the Scoti, where I guess I gave the traditional and now outdated theory. About the Picts, bear in mind I wasn't using "Welsh" in its modern sense but in that of its predecessor, Old English wealisc, i.e. to refer to the non-Germanic Britons as a whole. While the term became specialized to refer to the Welsh, with Anglo-Saxon sources distinguishing between wealas/bryttas, peohtas and scottas, that wasn't the original sense. I certainly didn't mean to imply the Picts spoke Old Welsh, but that they spoke a Brythonic language, or a closely related one (i.e. P-Celtic, as you say).

One only has to read the Armes Prydein Vawr to get a glimpse of that resilient sense of Welsh/Briton unity.