World Politics

[King Boonen]

No worries Hope the reply made it more clear.


For what it's worth I've not said how I voted, but it might be clear from my posts. I could certainly see both arguments, I made my decision on what I truly believed was better for Scotland.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Farmers have common sense. They know that there's no difference between a Scot and an Englishman. You all speak the same language.

I looked up the status of Scottish-Gaelic after reading this post and I was surprised to see only 1.1% of the population of Scotland speaks Gaelic.

That means it's status is far worse than Irish, Welsh or even Breton. I would've guessed Irish was better off, but I'd thought Scottish Gaelic's status would be be similar to Welsh and better than Breton. But my perception of the status of these Celtic languages was all messed up. Apparently Welsh has more native speakers than Irish too! (Though Irish has more speakers including L2 speakers)

I want a referendum for the indepence of Wales please, at least they speak their own language!

 

[Frosty]

An outsider's opinion but i think that Gordon Brown's speech on Wednesday might have made the difference between a narrow win (51:49 or 52:48) and the eventual result. Probably won over quite a few waverers and also made the weaker no voters more likely to go out and vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J39bBV7CBJk

 

[Hawkwood]

I looked up the status of Scottish-Gaelic after reading this post and I was surprised to see only 1.1% of the population of Scotland speaks Gaelic.

That means it's status is far worse than Irish, Welsh or even Breton. I would've guessed Irish was better off, but I'd thought Scottish Gaelic's status would be be similar to Welsh and better than Breton. But my perception of the status of these Celtic languages was all messed up. Apparently Welsh has more native speakers than Irish too! (Though Irish has more speakers including L2 speakers)

I want a referendum for the indepence of Wales please, at least they speak their own language!

Yep I've got relatives in the Bala area whose first language is Welsh. When we used to visit one of my dad's aunts she had an English/Welsh dictionary to look up what we were saying. There's a newsagent in Bala where most of the titles are in Welsh, it felt quite odd when I first walked into it. Last year I was queuing up to buy some meat in a butcher's shop in Bala (Jones the butcher, the other butchers is also Jones the butcher), I was the only one in the shop speaking English. Look up `Hinterland', a crime drama set around Aberystwyth, the dialogue is half Welsh, half English, quite daring, but I think it's great. Clearly it's taken a lot of ideas from the Scandinavian crime dramas.

 

[hrotha]

Scots is also their own tongue, guise.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Is this directed at me? If so I suggest you go back and actually read what I wrote and then educate yourself about the results in specific areas.

My point was that the majority of reporting came from Glasgow, where Yes won a clear majority, so would give the impression that it was likely to be a closer result. If the media had bothered going to the Highlands, or even ventured out of the central belt, they would have found that many areas were very pro union and their reporting would have given a better indication as to how the result would go.

To be honest you are probably right here, I must admit I kept a passing glance on the events but didn't go into much detail on it. It seemed like many presumed because the big cities had so many yes voters then many presumed it was a done deal.

 

[King Boonen]

To be honest you are probably right here, I must admit I kept a passing glance on the events but didn't go into much detail on it. It seemed like many presumed because the big cities had so many yes voters then many presumed it was a done deal.

Not your fault, even up here there was very little reporting from anywhere other than the Central Belt.

 

[hrotha]

I don't know what reporting you guys have been following, but what I heard was that the No was always comfortably ahead until shortly before the referendum, when the Yes caught up. It was never seen as a "done deal".

 

[Frosty]

I looked up the status of Scottish-Gaelic after reading this post and I was surprised to see only 1.1% of the population of Scotland speaks Gaelic.

That means it's status is far worse than Irish, Welsh or even Breton. I would've guessed Irish was better off, but I'd thought Scottish Gaelic's status would be be similar to Welsh and better than Breton. But my perception of the status of these Celtic languages was all messed up. Apparently Welsh has more native speakers than Irish too! (Though Irish has more speakers including L2 speakers)

I want a referendum for the indepence of Wales please, at least they speak their own language!

As far as language = nationalism goes, the most Gaelic area (Comhairle nan Eilean Siar/Western Isles) actually voted no.

 

[ToreBear]

Noooooooo! I wanted a Bravehart sequel! It's never going to happen now....

You can put that down to your fellow Scots not wanting to leave. Nothing to do with us down south.

I wouldn't feel too bad. Scotland doesn't want independence but it looks like its about to get devo max with no cut in funding (ie. We'll still be subsidising the Scots @ £1300 a head). Just feel glad that the English are so politically apathetic and ignorant as to not rise up against the inequities of that.

For me down here, I'm relieved for the sake of my Scottish family who were stressed by this as they thought independence was "crazy". I'm hoping that it shakes up the UK political system as a whole.

Do you think you could persuade your fellow SNP voters to vote Labour in the next election? Quite a few of us down here would be very grateful.

But anyway, what was the real result of this vote? It was a vote for unity.

I just want to point out that that is likely a half truth that has been repeated so many times that a lot of people think it is true.

I looked into subsidies claim a few years ago and found out the numbers were based on assumptions that would not hold true if Scotland became independent.

I don't remember if it's the same false claim, but IIRC that number came about because all the revenues from the oil industry were counted as not belonging to Scotland. In an independent Scotland that money would go to the Scottish Budget. Then there is also the question of taxation, write offs etc, which even more fudges the picture. Hence the reality is that the rest of the UK would face a major budget shortfall. I think a lot of people in London are breathing a lot easier today.

 

[Hawkwood]

I don't remember if it's the same false claim, but IIRC that number came about because all the revenues from the oil industry were counted as not belonging to Scotland. In an independent Scotland that money would go to the Scottish Budget. Then there is also the question of taxation, write offs etc, which even more fudges the picture. Hence the reality is that the rest of the UK would face a major budget shortfall. I think a lot of people in London are breathing a lot easier today.

Well the oil AND gas question is an interesting one. Most of the oil comes from off the Scottish coast, while most of the gas comes from off the English one, so an independent Scotland would have to have bought gas off the UK. Oil stocks are in decline, so Scotland could not count on it for ever more. Plus the oil fields are mainly off the Orkneys and Shetlands, two areas that were anti an independent Scotland.

 

[TheSpud]

From Telegraph website:

15.20 LABOUR TO BLOCK CAM'S ENGLISH VOTES PLAN

Labour have rejected David Cameron's proposals to secure English-only votes on English laws at the same time as giving greater devolution to Scotland.

Labour sources indicated they would scrap Cameron's plans if the party wins in 2015.



Seems Miliband doesnt believe in democracy after all - especially if it affects his ability to control things. What a hypocrite! If the English cant vote on Scottish matters then the Scots shouldn't be able to vote on English matters.

 

[King Boonen]

From Telegraph website:

15.20 LABOUR TO BLOCK CAM'S ENGLISH VOTES PLAN

Labour have rejected David Cameron's proposals to secure English-only votes on English laws at the same time as giving greater devolution to Scotland.

Labour sources indicated they would scrap Cameron's plans if the party wins in 2015.



Seems Miliband doesnt believe in democracy after all - especially if it affects his ability to control things. What a hypocrite! If the English cant vote on Scottish matters then the Scots shouldn't be able to vote on English matters.

Actually, it is reasonable that Scottish MPs are allowed to vote on issues that affect public services in England.

The Barnett formula dictates that any reduction or increase in public expenditure in England will reduce or increase the money given to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Therefore it is extremely relevant to Scottish MPs what is happening to spending in England and they should be able to have a say as this directly affects the people they are elected to represent.

The opposite is not true which is why English MPs do not have a say over how money is spent in Scotland.

If Westminster wishes to continue receiving tax from the Scottish (and Welsh and Northern Irish) populations it must allow MPs elected from those countries to have a say over policies that directly affect their own funding.

 

[rhubroma]

Democratic process gave a fortuitous demonstration, if not to say in cold terms procedural, of a means to conflict resolution that does not involve arms.

 

[Hawkwood]

From Telegraph website:

15.20 LABOUR TO BLOCK CAM'S ENGLISH VOTES PLAN

Labour have rejected David Cameron's proposals to secure English-only votes on English laws at the same time as giving greater devolution to Scotland.

Labour sources indicated they would scrap Cameron's plans if the party wins in 2015.



Seems Miliband doesnt believe in democracy after all - especially if it affects his ability to control things. What a hypocrite! If the English cant vote on Scottish matters then the Scots shouldn't be able to vote on English matters.

Cameron came out with a complete knee jerk idea to try to keep everyone onboard, particularly his backbenchers, has it been thought through? I doubt it!

 

[ToreBear]

Well the oil AND gas question is an interesting one. Most of the oil comes from off the Scottish coast, while most of the gas comes from off the English one, so an independent Scotland would have to have bought gas off the UK. Oil stocks are in decline, so Scotland could not count on it for ever more. Plus the oil fields are mainly off the Orkneys and Shetlands, two areas that were anti an independent Scotland.

I don't think you are correct. AFAIK the majority of the gas comes from north of the border. Also, there are a lot of unexplored areas in the North Sea.

As for the Oil, that is on the decline as you said. As for Orkneys and Shetland, I would think they are more likely to choose Scotland over England in a hypothetical scenario. Perhaps Norway over both.

 

[thrawn]

Actually, it is reasonable that Scottish MPs are allowed to vote on issues that affect public services in England.

The Barnett formula dictates that any reduction or increase in public expenditure in England will reduce or increase the money given to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Therefore it is extremely relevant to Scottish MPs what is happening to spending in England and they should be able to have a say as this directly affects the people they are elected to represent.

The opposite is not true which is why English MPs do not have a say over how money is spent in Scotland.

If Westminster wishes to continue receiving tax from the Scottish (and Welsh and Northern Irish) populations it must allow MPs elected from those countries to have a say over policies that directly affect their own funding.

I guess they're going to have a fun time determining what is an 'English' issue, and what is an issue for the whole Kingdom.

 

[del1962]

Actually, it is reasonable that Scottish MPs are allowed to vote on issues that affect public services in England.

The Barnett formula dictates that any reduction or increase in public expenditure in England will reduce or increase the money given to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Therefore it is extremely relevant to Scottish MPs what is happening to spending in England and they should be able to have a say as this directly affects the people they are elected to represent.

The opposite is not true which is why English MPs do not have a say over how money is spent in Scotland.

If Westminster wishes to continue receiving tax from the Scottish (and Welsh and Northern Irish) populations it must allow MPs elected from those countries to have a say over policies that directly affect their own funding.

I think the thinking is that all MPs can vote on the level of public expenditure but that English MP should vote on how that expenditure is used in England. Not really that much point in this as really need a separately elected body for England to do this, and instead of that England would be better served with regional bodies to achieve this which probably means a proportionate reduction in the money given to Scotland and Wales to greater fund the less well of regions of England. Actually I could happily accept greater powers for Scotland under such a scenario.

 

[RetroActive]

Inside the People's Climate March
Save the World, Really?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/19/save-the-world-really/

The last two links are food for thought as well.

 

[Hawkwood]

I don't think you are correct. AFAIK the majority of the gas comes from north of the border. Also, there are a lot of unexplored areas in the North Sea.

As for the Oil, that is on the decline as you said. As for Orkneys and Shetland, I would think they are more likely to choose Scotland over England in a hypothetical scenario. Perhaps Norway over both.

I've read, and the maps appear to show it, that most of the off-shore oil is north of the border, and most of the gas south. Getting on to shale gas then England is projected to have far more than Scotland.

 

[laurel1969]

The result in graphical representation

 

[blutto]

The result in graphical representation

...so it was real close, weren't it?....and now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Cheers

 

[ferryman]

What a long night. No idea how I made work this morning after 2 hours sleep. Anyway, off with the Saltire avatar, end of debate for me on here and thanks for listening and participating

 

[TheSpud]

What a long night. No idea how I made work this morning after 2 hours sleep. Anyway, off with the Saltire avatar, end of debate for me on here and thanks for listening and participating

Good on you for staying up for so long. I fell asleep at 10:45, awoke at 1:30 and then again at 3:30!

Dont see why you need to kill off the Saltire - Scottish and proud, nothing wrong with that!

I have to say I'm impressed with Salmond. He took the fight to the masses. Ok he pulled on peoples heart strings and (in my view) ducked a lot of the serious questions but at one stage it looked like he may do it. The highest electoral turnout since the 1950s or something? That is a victory for democracy.

Full marks for resigning (and I mean that in all sincerity). He had an aim and he ground away for near 25 years to get it. 2 years ago he got his majority and announced the referendum intention. He fought till the end but couldnt quite deliver it, despite Westminster clowning it up.

It takes a big person to admit they couldnt deliver and that its time for someone else - harder than just brushing it off and fighting on. A man of honour and conviction - I wish there were more politicians around who would take the blame for failing to deliver. I dont agree with him or his policies but that must have been the hardest thing he has ever had to do today.

@Ferryman - I hope you (and others) will continue to contribute to the unfolding debate on the UK's constitutional future. One thing is for sure - you may not have got the result you wanted, but the UK is now changed for ever. And for the better, at least democratically, in my view.

And the other thing thats great is that its Friday and therefore beer o'clock!

 

[laurel1969]

One thing is for sure - you may not have got the result you wanted, but the UK is now changed for ever. And for the better, at least democratically, in my view.

I think that remains to be seen.

I'll be honest, i 'm deeply uncomfortable with displays of nationalism of any sort, I think the majority of Scots made the right decision for now...

....but....

....I can totally understand why there's a desire to get away from the awful British elitist Eton-bred establishment.