World Politics

[Jagartrott]

Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP deal'

Exclusive: The news casts a further shadow over a global industry already in the spotlight following this week’s Volkswagen emissions scandal

The motor industry has been accused of withholding a report that reveals US cars are substantially less safe than European vehicles - for fear that the findings would hamper the drive to harmonise safety standards as part of the controversial Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) deal.

The major study was commissioned by the car industry to show that existing EU and US safety standards were broadly similar.

But the research actually established that American models are much less safe when it comes to front-side collisions, a common cause of accidents that often result in serious injuries.

The findings were never submitted – or publicly announced – by the industry bodies that funded the study.

Safety campaigners have said the research showed that trade negotiators would potentially be putting lives in danger by allowing vehicles approved in the US to be sold in Europe and vice-versa.

The news casts a further shadow over a global industry already in the spotlight following this week’s Volkswagen emissions scandal.

The Washington-based Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers (AAM) sponsored the research, announced in a joint press release last year alongside the European car lobby ACEA and the American Automotive Policy Council.

The auto giants represent the industry’s biggest names from Chrysler and Toyota to Jaguar Land Rover and Volkswagen.

Independent experts from the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute and the SAFER transportation research centre at Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg, Sweden, carried out the study. They are two of the leading traffic safety research centres in the world. Experts in France and at the UK’s Transport Research Laboratory were also involved.

“ACEA remains confident that regulatory convergence can be achieved in TTIP while maintaining the current high level of safety performance in both the EU and the US,” the spokesperson said.

The investigation was announced to great fanfare last year: Robert Strassburger, AAM Vice President for vehicle safety, said it might be the most ambitious and complicated research effort the trade group has commissioned in the field of auto safety.

The industry wanted to use the findings to help TTIP negotiations aimed at harmonising vehicle safety standards on both sides of the Atlantic. under current rules cars sold globally, such as the Ford Focus or Volkswagen Golf, must still be re-engineered multiple times - at considerable expense to manufacturers - to satisfy crash-test standards around the world.

The lobby groups pre-empted the results saying “our standards may differ in some modest ways, but the ones that we’re looking at harmonizing are essentially equivalent”.

The report’s findings, however, pointed to substantial differences in performance. Of particular concern to safety groups is the finding that passengers in a typical EU model are 33 per cent safer in front-side collisions, an accident that often results in serious injury, than those in a typical US model.

However none of the car lobby giants published a response to the findings, which have now been quietly posted on the University of Michigan’s website.

Co-author András Bálint, Traffic Safety Analyst at Chalmers, told the Independent: “The results of our study indicate that there is currently a risk difference with respect to the risk of injury given a crash between EU specification cars and US models.

“Therefore, based on these results, immediate recognition of US vehicles in the EU could potentially result in a greater number of fatalities or serious injuries in road traffic. The potential impact is difficult to quantify because it depends on a number of other parameters.”

The European Transport Safety Council (ETSC), the independent organisation that advises the European Commission and the European Parliament on road safety, said the research was an important warning that vehicle safety standards cannot be included in TTIP at this stage. It called for a halt to proceedings so further analysis could be carried out.

The council’s executive director Antonio Avenoso said: “This study shows that EU and US trade negotiators would potentially be putting lives in danger by allowing vehicles approved in the US to be sold today in Europe and vice-versa. What’s needed is an open and transparent process for getting both sides up to the highest level of safety across all vehicles. Clearly without much more research and analysis, including vehicle safety standards in the TTIP agreement would be irresponsible.”

The next formal round of TTIP negotiations begin next month, with the proposed free trade deal set to become the biggest such deal ever made.

The motor vehicle sector will probably the biggest beneficiary: harmonisation of auto regulations across the Atlantic could bring over €18 billion per year for the European Union and the United States economies, a study by the US think-tank Petersen Institute of International Economics revealed this year.

Last night a spokesman for the US Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which led the way in commissioning the study, said: “There is much credit to be given for the historic efforts made in this study, and we fully support the methodology for comparing and analyzing U.S. and EU crash environments and vehicle performance.

 

[python]

Putin plans air strikes in Syria if no U.S. deal reached: Bloomberg
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-mideast-crisis-russia-airstrikes-idUSKCN0RO01320150924?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

when i read this article i instinctively 'wow-ed'..not b/c i was surprised by the vlad intention (after all, i was expecting the turn and predicted it in several posts here). i was stunned by the fact that the major western msm did not use the indignant 'u' word - the ultimatum, b/c this is in essence - if the report is true - what vlad did. he gave obama an ultimatum to join in or else.

american presidents are not used to be given ultimatums...what the fork is going on ?

ms. python clued me to a possible reason. she starts her day reading german media:
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Wie-die-EU-die-Fluechtlingskrise-loesen-will-article15999871.html

merkel basically did a 180 this morning. she said that the current presidedent of syria bashar al-assad should have a place at the negotiations. this is not only a reversal of her own position, but also a major signal as to where the other eu politocos, no doubt fatuged by the refugee flood, are looking. i recon, blomberg was aware of the major mood shifts both within the eu and the obama administration. using the the u-word would be stupid...

i have a couple of quick thoughts regarding all this.. 1st, i recall a few weeks back some posters termed the turkish intention to join the isil fight 'a game changer'. to which i skeptically referred as the turks pursuing their own game re the kurds. indeed, since the announcement, i read some place, the turks attacked the kurds 300 times and the isil around 30 times. 2nd thought, the game changer, as is now increasingly clear, was sudden russia decision to interfere militarily. everyone is now facing an awkward choice - act unilaterally, or within ones own coalition, or risk a major clusterfork of foolishly shooting each other. or, when the real common enemy is isil, bring together a real coalition. sounds like a common sense to me...but since when did the politicians use common sense

and the 3d thought, is germany finally stepping up to its new and reluctant role of leading

 

[blutto]

....so Bibi's recent surprise trip to Moscow plays into this how? ....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP deal'

Exclusive: The news casts a further shadow over a global industry already in the spotlight following this week’s Volkswagen emissions scandal

The motor industry has been accused of withholding a report that reveals US cars are substantially less safe than European vehicles - for fear that the findings would hamper the drive to harmonise safety standards as part of the controversial Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) deal.

The major study was commissioned by the car industry to show that existing EU and US safety standards were broadly similar.

But the research actually established that American models are much less safe when it comes to front-side collisions, a common cause of accidents that often result in serious injuries.

The findings were never submitted – or publicly announced – by the industry bodies that funded the study.

Safety campaigners have said the research showed that trade negotiators would potentially be putting lives in danger by allowing vehicles approved in the US to be sold in Europe and vice-versa.

The news casts a further shadow over a global industry already in the spotlight following this week’s Volkswagen emissions scandal.

The Washington-based Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers (AAM) sponsored the research, announced in a joint press release last year alongside the European car lobby ACEA and the American Automotive Policy Council.

The auto giants represent the industry’s biggest names from Chrysler and Toyota to Jaguar Land Rover and Volkswagen.

Independent experts from the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute and the SAFER transportation research centre at Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg, Sweden, carried out the study. They are two of the leading traffic safety research centres in the world. Experts in France and at the UK’s Transport Research Laboratory were also involved.

“ACEA remains confident that regulatory convergence can be achieved in TTIP while maintaining the current high level of safety performance in both the EU and the US,” the spokesperson said.

The investigation was announced to great fanfare last year: Robert Strassburger, AAM Vice President for vehicle safety, said it might be the most ambitious and complicated research effort the trade group has commissioned in the field of auto safety.

The industry wanted to use the findings to help TTIP negotiations aimed at harmonising vehicle safety standards on both sides of the Atlantic. under current rules cars sold globally, such as the Ford Focus or Volkswagen Golf, must still be re-engineered multiple times - at considerable expense to manufacturers - to satisfy crash-test standards around the world.

The lobby groups pre-empted the results saying “our standards may differ in some modest ways, but the ones that we’re looking at harmonizing are essentially equivalent”.

The report’s findings, however, pointed to substantial differences in performance. Of particular concern to safety groups is the finding that passengers in a typical EU model are 33 per cent safer in front-side collisions, an accident that often results in serious injury, than those in a typical US model.

However none of the car lobby giants published a response to the findings, which have now been quietly posted on the University of Michigan’s website.

Co-author András Bálint, Traffic Safety Analyst at Chalmers, told the Independent: “The results of our study indicate that there is currently a risk difference with respect to the risk of injury given a crash between EU specification cars and US models.

“Therefore, based on these results, immediate recognition of US vehicles in the EU could potentially result in a greater number of fatalities or serious injuries in road traffic. The potential impact is difficult to quantify because it depends on a number of other parameters.”

The European Transport Safety Council (ETSC), the independent organisation that advises the European Commission and the European Parliament on road safety, said the research was an important warning that vehicle safety standards cannot be included in TTIP at this stage. It called for a halt to proceedings so further analysis could be carried out.

The council’s executive director Antonio Avenoso said: “This study shows that EU and US trade negotiators would potentially be putting lives in danger by allowing vehicles approved in the US to be sold today in Europe and vice-versa. What’s needed is an open and transparent process for getting both sides up to the highest level of safety across all vehicles. Clearly without much more research and analysis, including vehicle safety standards in the TTIP agreement would be irresponsible.”

The next formal round of TTIP negotiations begin next month, with the proposed free trade deal set to become the biggest such deal ever made.

The motor vehicle sector will probably the biggest beneficiary: harmonisation of auto regulations across the Atlantic could bring over €18 billion per year for the European Union and the United States economies, a study by the US think-tank Petersen Institute of International Economics revealed this year.

Last night a spokesman for the US Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which led the way in commissioning the study, said: “There is much credit to be given for the historic efforts made in this study, and we fully support the methodology for comparing and analyzing U.S. and EU crash environments and vehicle performance.

....great find...

Cheers

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Ah, the Daily Mail are losing their skill. Commenting on Corbyn's love life just a couple of weeks after becoming leader. You're meant to save this stuff until election year! Are they struggling to find anything of dirt?

Didn't they just bring some stuff out about Dave too, from that jilted donor Ashcroft?

Or was it a porkie

Tbh honest I don't know what's happened to them. I'm kind of worried. First a massive lapse in destroying-labour-leaders-tactic and know attacking their hero, Dave.

Edit: I now see your pun. I like

 

[python]

does anyone remember pat buchanan ?

i barely recalled his cred when i came across his opinion on the syrian crisis...a staunch conservative, sharp-tongued and ever outspoken former speech writer for presidents, an 'antisemite' etc. an interesting take from a conservative who sees through the neocon blowhards:
http://buchanan.org/blog/putin-friend-or-foe-in-syria-124083
select quotes:

Are we still so miffed that when we helped to dump over the pro-Russian regime in Kiev, Putin countered by annexing Crimea? Get over it.

Our problem has been that we have let our friends — the Turks, Israelis, Saudis and Gulf Arabs — convince us that no victory over ISIS can be achieved unless and until we bring down Assad.
Once we get rid of Assad, they tell us, a grand U.S.-led coalition of Arabs and Turks can form up and march in to dispatch ISIS. This is neocon nonsense.

Prediction: If Assad falls and ISIS rises in Damascus, a clamor will come — and not only from the Lindsey Grahams and John McCains — to send a U.S. army to invade and drive ISIS out, while the neocons go scrounging around to find a Syrian Ahmed Chalabi in northern Virginia.

 

[Merckx index]

Re:

does anyone remember pat buchanan ?

Of course. He strongly opposed the invasion of Iraq--really took it to Hannity on Fox News at one point--and his views on Syria don't surprise me at all. He's not a 1-dimensional right winger. I'd say the key difference between him and so many others on the far right is that he's a realist. His views are informed by what he believes is possible, not by the way he thinks the world should be. He's also a more consistent conservative, in that he recognizes that so many of our foreign adventures are fiscally irresponsible.

He's a strong, traditional Catholic, and I'd be curious to hear his views on Francis' left-wing leanings. He's shown in the past that he has the ability to change his mind on issues.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

does anyone remember pat buchanan ?

...

He's a strong, traditional Catholic, and I'd be curious to hear his views on Francis' left-wing leanings. He's shown in the past that he has the ability to change his mind on issues.

it took me few seconds of clicking his site to find the pat buchanan opinion re. the question you posed. i figured based on the clue you provided ('a strong, traditional catholic') an outspoken fella like pat was bound to elucidate...i dont have an opinion though technically a christian (moderate lutheran parents)

US and Catholicism in Crisis
http://buchanan.org/blog/us-and-catholicism-in-crisis-124092

As the pope arrives in America, some Catholics are calling for an acceptance of contraception, the ordination of women and a new acceptance of homosexuality. Yet the Episcopalians, who have embraced all these “reforms” and more, appear to be going the way of James Fenimore Cooper’s Mohicans.

In Cuba, Pope Francis declined to address the repression of the Castro brothers. Will he also avoid America’s moral crisis to chatter on about income inequality and climate change and find common ground with Obama?

What has come out of the Vatican in the past two years is moral confusion.

 

[python]

in syria things are hotting up very quickly.

i posted already that this morning vlad received his rubber-stamping parliament an ok to unleash his military. and now this, which if true, is a water shedding happening:

First US-Russian air clash builds up as Moscow orders US planes to exit Syrian air space
http://www.debka.com/article/24915/First-US-Russian-air-clash-builds-up-as-Moscow-orders-US-planes-to-exit-Syrian-air-space

wow

a few words on the source reliability and accuracy- the debkafile...it is an israeli site which i first came across in 2008 b/c some solid western think tanks used it as a reference or a source in the 2008 georgia war. many of their reports proved true, some false and almost all are clearly jumping with 'we were the 1st'. some observers believe it is an Israeli-intelligence-connected feeler tasked with throwing bits of facts 'out there' designed to test a public reaction for israel's benefit.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

in syria things are hotting up very quickly.

i posted already that this morning vlad received his rubber-stamping parliament an ok to unleash his military. and now this, which if true, is a water shedding happening:

First US-Russian air clash builds up as Moscow orders US planes to exit Syrian air space
http://www.debka.com/article/24915/First-US-Russian-air-clash-builds-up-as-Moscow-orders-US-planes-to-exit-Syrian-air-space

wow

a few words on the source reliability and accuracy- the debkafile...it is an israeli site which i first came across in 2008 b/c some solid western think tanks used it as a reference or a source in the 2008 georgia war. many of their reports proved true, some false and almost all are clearly jumping with 'we were the 1st'. some observers believe it is an Israeli-intelligence-connected feeler tasked with throwing bits of facts 'out there' designed to test a public reaction for israel's benefit.

I read somewhere this morning (trying to find the quote and source now) that it was confirmed that Russia did in fact order the USA air out of Syrian airspace. Looks like Putin has taken over.

Any opinion on will this end up in a quagmire much like our USA's Iraq and Afghanistan (also Russia's Afghanistan) wars.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

in syria things are hotting up very quickly.

i posted already that this morning vlad received his rubber-stamping parliament an ok to unleash his military. and now this, which if true, is a water shedding happening:

First US-Russian air clash builds up as Moscow orders US planes to exit Syrian air space
http://www.debka.com/article/24915/First-US-Russian-air-clash-builds-up-as-Moscow-orders-US-planes-to-exit-Syrian-air-space

wow

a few words on the source reliability and accuracy- the debkafile...it is an israeli site which i first came across in 2008 b/c some solid western think tanks used it as a reference or a source in the 2008 georgia war. many of their reports proved true, some false and almost all are clearly jumping with 'we were the 1st'. some observers believe it is an Israeli-intelligence-connected feeler tasked with throwing bits of facts 'out there' designed to test a public reaction for israel's benefit.

I read somewhere this morning (trying to find the quote and source now) that it was confirmed that Russia did in fact order the USA air out of Syrian airspace. Looks like Putin has taken over.

Any opinion on will this end up in a quagmire much like our USA's Iraq and Afghanistan (also Russia's Afghanistan) wars.

....kinda depends on whether the money to keep the mercenaries, errrr, rebels paid keeps flowing....this is crucial since they have virtually no support in Syria and are primarily foreigners to boot ( unlike the other quagmires mentioned which were to a large extent based on indigenous fighters and issues )...

Cheers

 

[python]

Re: Re:

in syria things are hotting up very quickly.

i posted already that this morning vlad received his rubber-stamping parliament an ok to unleash his military. and now this, which if true, is a water shedding happening:

First US-Russian air clash builds up as Moscow orders US planes to exit Syrian air space
http://www.debka.com/article/24915/First-US-Russian-air-clash-builds-up-as-Moscow-orders-US-planes-to-exit-Syrian-air-space

wow

a few words on the source reliability and accuracy- the debkafile...it is an israeli site which i first came across in 2008 b/c some solid western think tanks used it as a reference or a source in the 2008 georgia war. many of their reports proved true, some false and almost all are clearly jumping with 'we were the 1st'. some observers believe it is an Israeli-intelligence-connected feeler tasked with throwing bits of facts 'out there' designed to test a public reaction for israel's benefit.

I read somewhere this morning (trying to find the quote and source now) that it was confirmed that Russia did in fact order the USA air out of Syrian airspace. Looks like Putin has taken over.

Any opinion on will this end up in a quagmire much like our USA's Iraq and Afghanistan (also Russia's Afghanistan) wars.

most likely, to avoid a clash with usaf there was a military-to-military communication initiated by the russians regarding the airspace they were intending to operate in. btw, it was confirmed - vlad's airforce has attacked several syrian targets a couple of hours ago. BUT, the reports of vlad ordering the us airforce out, imo are a way of sharpening the news.

the way i see it is this. both the us and russia are currently feverishly working on the procedures to avoid a conflict. both know better and dont need a clusterfork. but the thing is, it takes time to work out the numerous, sometimes quite complex details for friend-foe recognition etc. probably the americans suggested a time frame the russians did not like, so they sent a warning - 'sorry, we are going here and there anyway, pls, stay out'. to drive the message to obama, they probably flashed their ground-to-air radar into the designated airspace and brought air superiority fighters (su-34) to protect the attack planes in case the message was not received. something that sounds like an ultimatum, is probably no more than a resolve to play own game. which is dangerous enough and brings me to thinking about your question...will it end in another Afghanistan for vlad ? it is way too early to even try to entertain, but imo it may turn even worse including, as once posted, losing ukraine and his hold on power...

it will depend on how carefully he will navigate and how the us, turkey, and the soudis will respond to his firm intent NOT to be told around by the us. this much is clear, vlad is irritated with the us policies in iraq, lybia and now syria. that's were the danger of overreactions, accidents and just bad luck on either side can start a huge fire.

but what is obvious, vlad started relatively small, like the us, with just an airforce. the huge difference btwn his bombing and us coalition is that he is acting as an extension and a cover for a professional army also largely trained and equipped by him. contrast that with the disjoint efforts of the us air-force who dont even know who are their allies on the ground. plus, they fly super long missions from the carriers and some bases in turkey and jordan. iow, the russian airforce is in a better position to make a difference on the ground than the us airforce.

if so, we will see a turn around in fighting and a move by most sides to talk, b/c it is obvious no one side can win it all. as to isis, imo both the russians and the us are using it as a front to their political designs in the area. just like the tuks and the saudis and the iranians.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

in syria things are hotting up very quickly.

i posted already that this morning vlad received his rubber-stamping parliament an ok to unleash his military. and now this, which if true, is a water shedding happening:

First US-Russian air clash builds up as Moscow orders US planes to exit Syrian air space
http://www.debka.com/article/24915/First-US-Russian-air-clash-builds-up-as-Moscow-orders-US-planes-to-exit-Syrian-air-space

wow

a few words on the source reliability and accuracy- the debkafile...it is an israeli site which i first came across in 2008 b/c some solid western think tanks used it as a reference or a source in the 2008 georgia war. many of their reports proved true, some false and almost all are clearly jumping with 'we were the 1st'. some observers believe it is an Israeli-intelligence-connected feeler tasked with throwing bits of facts 'out there' designed to test a public reaction for israel's benefit.

I read somewhere this morning (trying to find the quote and source now) that it was confirmed that Russia did in fact order the USA air out of Syrian airspace. Looks like Putin has taken over.

Any opinion on will this end up in a quagmire much like our USA's Iraq and Afghanistan (also Russia's Afghanistan) wars.

most likely, to avoid a clash with usaf there was a military-to-military communication initiated by the russians regarding the airspace they were intending to operate in. btw, it was confirmed - vlad's airforce has attacked several syrian targets a couple of hours ago. BUT, the reports of vlad ordering the us airforce out, imo are a way of sharpening the news.

the way i see it is this. both the us and russia are currently feverishly working on the procedures to avoid a conflict. both know better and dont need a clusterfork. but the thing is, it takes time to work out the numerous, sometimes quite complex details for friend-foe recognition etc. probably the americans suggested a time frame the russians did not like, so they sent a warning - 'sorry, we are going here and there anyway, pls, stay out'. to drive the message to obama, they probably flashed their ground-to-air radar into the designated airspace and brought air superiority fighters (su-34) to protect the attack planes in case the message was not received. something that sounds like an ultimatum, is probably no more than a resolve to play own game. which is dangerous enough and brings me to thinking about your question...will it end in another Afghanistan for vlad ? it is way too early to even try to entertain, but imo it may turn even worse including, as once posted, losing ukraine and his hold on power...

it will depend on how carefully he will navigate and how the us, turkey, and the soudis will respond to his firm intent NOT to be told around by the us. this much is clear, vlad is irritated with the us policies in iraq, lybia and now syria. that's were the danger of overreactions, accidents and just bad luck on either side can start a huge fire.

but what is obvious, vlad started relatively small, like the us, with just an airforce. the huge difference btwn his bombing and us coalition is that he is acting as an extension and a cover for a professional army also largely trained and equipped by him. contrast that with the disjoint efforts of the us air-force who dont even know who are their allies on the ground. plus, they fly super long missions from the carriers and some bases in turkey and jordan. iow, the russian airforce is in a better position to make a difference on the ground than the us airforce.

if so, we will see a turn around in fighting and a move by most sides to talk, b/c it is obvious no one side can win it all. as to isis, imo both the russians and the us are using it as a front to their political designs in the area. just like the tuks and the saudis and the iranians.

Uhhhh oohhh looks like things are going to go a little pear shapped. Too bad the POTUS does not know what he is doing and Moscow will rule him. He (POTUS) is getting played by the Moscow Mule! LMAO Syria the showdown? NOPE USA will pull out and let Putin Prop up Assssad. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150930/eu--russia-syria-1f3833b009.html

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

in syria things are hotting up very quickly.

i posted already that this morning vlad received his rubber-stamping parliament an ok to unleash his military. and now this, which if true, is a water shedding happening:

First US-Russian air clash builds up as Moscow orders US planes to exit Syrian air space
http://www.debka.com/article/24915/First-US-Russian-air-clash-builds-up-as-Moscow-orders-US-planes-to-exit-Syrian-air-space

wow

a few words on the source reliability and accuracy- the debkafile...it is an israeli site which i first came across in 2008 b/c some solid western think tanks used it as a reference or a source in the 2008 georgia war. many of their reports proved true, some false and almost all are clearly jumping with 'we were the 1st'. some observers believe it is an Israeli-intelligence-connected feeler tasked with throwing bits of facts 'out there' designed to test a public reaction for israel's benefit.

I read somewhere this morning (trying to find the quote and source now) that it was confirmed that Russia did in fact order the USA air out of Syrian airspace. Looks like Putin has taken over.

Any opinion on will this end up in a quagmire much like our USA's Iraq and Afghanistan (also Russia's Afghanistan) wars.

most likely, to avoid a clash with usaf there was a military-to-military communication initiated by the russians regarding the airspace they were intending to operate in. btw, it was confirmed - vlad's airforce has attacked several syrian targets a couple of hours ago. BUT, the reports of vlad ordering the us airforce out, imo are a way of sharpening the news.

the way i see it is this. both the us and russia are currently feverishly working on the procedures to avoid a conflict. both know better and dont need a clusterfork. but the thing is, it takes time to work out the numerous, sometimes quite complex details for friend-foe recognition etc. probably the americans suggested a time frame the russians did not like, so they sent a warning - 'sorry, we are going here and there anyway, pls, stay out'. to drive the message to obama, they probably flashed their ground-to-air radar into the designated airspace and brought air superiority fighters (su-34) to protect the attack planes in case the message was not received. something that sounds like an ultimatum, is probably no more than a resolve to play own game. which is dangerous enough and brings me to thinking about your question...will it end in another Afghanistan for vlad ? it is way too early to even try to entertain, but imo it may turn even worse including, as once posted, losing ukraine and his hold on power...

it will depend on how carefully he will navigate and how the us, turkey, and the soudis will respond to his firm intent NOT to be told around by the us. this much is clear, vlad is irritated with the us policies in iraq, lybia and now syria. that's were the danger of overreactions, accidents and just bad luck on either side can start a huge fire.

but what is obvious, vlad started relatively small, like the us, with just an airforce. the huge difference btwn his bombing and us coalition is that he is acting as an extension and a cover for a professional army also largely trained and equipped by him. contrast that with the disjoint efforts of the us air-force who dont even know who are their allies on the ground. plus, they fly super long missions from the carriers and some bases in turkey and jordan. iow, the russian airforce is in a better position to make a difference on the ground than the us airforce.

if so, we will see a turn around in fighting and a move by most sides to talk, b/c it is obvious no one side can win it all. as to isis, imo both the russians and the us are using it as a front to their political designs in the area. just like the tuks and the saudis and the iranians.

Uhhhh oohhh looks like things are going to go a little pear shapped. Too bad the POTUS does not know what he is doing and Moscow will rule him. He (POTUS) is getting played by the Moscow Mule! LMAO Syria the showdown? NOPE USA will pull out and let Putin Prop up Assssad. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150930/eu--russia-syria-1f3833b009.html

....the neocons who were behind the wonderful successes that the US of A have had in Afghanistan, Iraq Greece and Libya ( and soon to be joined by the smashing success of the glorious revolution in The Ukraine ) still seem to be in charge of directing the US of A to even greater successes ( and they still have the enthusiastic support of US of A's ace-number-one handler to do so ) and have dropped the steaming pile of stinky success that is now Syria on Obama's lap....the problem is that there is simply no simple or reasonable way to clean up this mess and still keep the neocons and their friends happy....so Obama has a choice, either play to the neocon peanut gallery who really don't give a fig about the US of A or maybe do something that may be beneficial to the American and Syrian people....Putin has just thrown him a lifeline and it seems Obama may have grabbed it....

....the only people being , errr, played here are the idiots who started this disaster in the first place....Obama's mistake is not what he is doing now but acquiescing to the neocon plan in the first place....Libya, Greece and The Ukraine are neocon disasters and maybe Obama has had enough....

....just a thought...

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Well yeah the Hawks do pressure POTUS. In some small ways that is a good thing.

Syria was set up from the beginning to be a problem that POTUS and his admin could not handle. Drawing a line with respect to chemicals leaving themselves open to that possibility. Plenty of errors to pass around with this administration.

What does the USA have interest in the stability of Syria? I'm not convinced we should be involved at all not even Air. With respect to helping the people providing shelter and aid etc. We should be 100% involved with that effort. We should be trying to find the people of Syria a place for refuge, not turning a blind eye to the situation and expecting the EU to take everyone in.

Don't look now but some reports suggest Russia will be sending ground troops into Syria. Same report says not only did the Russian air target ISIL they targeted other extremist groups including the USA supported Tajamu Alezzah. Assad played the USA and the coalition of air.

Russia rolled up the US embassy in Bagdad and were like "knock knock" "who's there?" "Air strikes in Syria---- From Russia with much love" ROFLMA

"Sergei Lavrov, a Russian officer contacted the US embassy in Baghdad." "His message was simple: Russian jets are about to launch air strikes in Syria, please stay out of their way.

Kerry quickly protested to Lavrov that this was not in the spirit of Moscow's promise to agree a "de-confliction" mechanism to ensure Russian flights do not interfere with US-led operations.

But the strikes were already underway"

 

[python]

"Sergei Lavrov, a Russian officer contacted the US embassy in Baghdad." "His message was simple: Russian jets are about to launch air strikes in Syria, please stay out of their way.

Kerry quickly protested to Lavrov that this was not in the spirit of Moscow's promise to agree a "de-confliction" mechanism to ensure Russian flights do not interfere with US-led operations.

But the strikes were already underway"

correct. this is close to what actually happened and close to my earlier speculation when i first posted about 'russia ordered the usaf out of the syrian airspace.

2 small clarifications need to be added - the call was made only 1 hour before the actual strikes (obviously to snub the us) and the choice of the Baghdad embassy for that call was far from accidental. it was a second calculated snub that lavrov just just explained at a press-conference in nyc. i listened live.

some journo asked him why russia is not joining the already existing anti-isil coalition lead by the us ? to which lavrov said, his country does not and can not belong to, in his view, an illegal formation. the international legality in his view, is granted by either the un security council or an invitation by a sovereign state, none of which apply to american coalition. furthermore, he contrasted the us coalition by the one formed by russia and located in baghdad. hence, the snub - the call was made by a 'legal' coalition to an 'illegal' one.

but there are 2 more significant developments along these lines.

the russian air power maybe now expanding to iraq, per the iraq's pm request (you see, it will be 'legal' ) and, which imo is even more significant, the syrian kurds leader today welcomed russian intervention. the latter one may signal that assad and the syrian kurds are looking for an accommodation, whilst the turks may be left simmering.

 

[blutto]

....and speaking of the tumult arising from the recent Russian sorties into Syria and the reported civilian casualties the USAF decided to push their way back into spotlight ( they are such girlie men prima donnas those flyboys ) with some collateral damage of their very own by performing one of their more famous maneuvers the surgical strike....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"U.S.: Strike may have caused Afghan "collateral damage"


KABUL, Afghanistan -- Nine local staffers for Doctors Without Borders were killed and 30 were missing after an explosion near their hospital in the northern Afghan city of Kunduz that may have been caused by a U.S. airstrike.

In a statement, the international charity said the "sustained bombing" took place at 2:10 a.m. Afghan forces backed by U.S. airstrikes have been fighting to dislodge Taliban insurgents who overran Kunduz on Monday.

U.S. forces in Afghanistan said they conducted an airstrike on Kunduz at 2:15 a.m. The spokesman, U.S. Army Col. Brian Tribus, said the strike "may have resulted in collateral damage to a nearby medical facility" and that the incident was under investigation. Tribus said it was the 12th U.S. airstrike "in the Kunduz vicinity" since Tuesday.

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul said in a statement that it "mourns for the individuals and families affected by the tragic incident at the Doctors Without Borders hospital." The statement didn't mention the airstrike.

Doctors Without Borders said its trauma center "was hit several times during sustained bombing and was very badly damaged." At the time of the bombing, the hospital had 105 patients and their caretakers, and more than 80 international and Afghan staff, it said."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....and speaking of civilian casualties associated with the Russian sorties, can anyone remember a situation where US of A sources have been so quick and thorough in identifying civilian casualties when the forces of freedom and democracy are bombing the $h!t out of some poor place back into the stone age....like how did they get the reporters in there so quick ( and in one instance they even successfully channeled a Philip K D!ck short story and "pre-cogged" some of the incidents....)....

Cheers

 

[hrotha]

The interesting bit about the Russian campaign in Syria is that, if they're targetting largely non-ISIS groups, that would line up well with the previous situation on the ground, where Jihadi groups often complained that ISIS wasn't fighting the regime but them. Maybe it's just a practical application of Russia's belief that only Assad can hold Syria together, but it's still funny that the interests of Assad/Iran and ISIS coincide so much.

Sunni Jihadi and Salafi circles are rather prone to conspiracy theories so the notion that ISIS is a Shiite false flag operation to bolster the Syrian government does enjoy some popularity, but you have to wonder if there's any merit to the theory, and the thing is, it does makes sense of the chaotic situation on the ground.

 

[python]

Re:

"U.S.: Strike may have caused Afghan "collateral damage"
....and speaking of civilian casualties associated with the Russian sorties, can anyone remember a situation where US of A sources have been so quick and thorough in identifying civilian casualties when the forces of freedom and democracy are bombing the $h!t out of some poor place back into the stone age....like how did they get the reporters in there so quick ( and in one instance they even successfully channeled a Philip K D!ck short story and "pre-cogged" some of the incidents....)....

Cheers

dont jump to the conclusion, pls, 'may have been killed by the us' still does mean the american air force 'has killed' despite only the us planes were flying that day... btw, per the last report on france24 the count is now 19 killed and they were pounded for over an hour. also, the un having its own sources on the spot has uncharacteristically for them (when speaking of the us actions) called the deed criminal.

of course, we don't hear from the state department that their own bombing has killed just during the 'coalition operations' in the last 13 months hundreds (per the western independents) or thousands (per arabic sources i try to avoid)

Airwars project details ‘credible reports’ of at least 459 non-combatant deaths, including 100 children, in 52 air strikes
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/03/us-led-air-strikes-on-isis-targets-killed-more-than-450-civilians-report

a pro-western syrian observatory for human rights (it was the 1st reporting civilian casualties from the russian sorties), admits to 162 innocent civilians killed by the us-lead coalition, including 51 children and 35 women

...and 64 civilians killed by a massacre committed by the U.S led coalition warplanes on Friday’s night in 04/30/2015 when they targeted Bir Mahli village near the town of Serrin in Aleppo with several air strikes, and the death toll of this massacre includes: 31 children under the age of 16 including ( 16 females and 15 males ).
– 19 women above the age of 18. – 13 men above the age of 18.– A 18 years old boy.

http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/06/about-3000-people-including-162-civilians-killed-in-us-coalition-airstrikes-on-areas-in-syria/

include in this tragic hypocrisy yesterday's written declaration of the 7 states to russia to stop killing civilians signed by such champions of human rights as the saudis and turkey.
Saudi-led coalition jets kill 20 at a wake in Yemen: residents
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/06/us-yemen-security-idUSKCN0R60CA20150906

again, i am citing only the western sources for the west's and their allies deeds and words.

 

[Jagartrott]

Any official using the words 'collateral damage' should be put into prison.
It's one of the most disgusting phrases out there.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

"U.S.: Strike may have caused Afghan "collateral damage"
....and speaking of civilian casualties associated with the Russian sorties, can anyone remember a situation where US of A sources have been so quick and thorough in identifying civilian casualties when the forces of freedom and democracy are bombing the $h!t out of some poor place back into the stone age....like how did they get the reporters in there so quick ( and in one instance they even successfully channeled a Philip K D!ck short story and "pre-cogged" some of the incidents....)....

Cheers

dont jump to the conclusion, pls, 'may have been killed by the us' still does mean the american air force 'has killed' despite only the us planes were flying that day... btw, per the last report on france24 the count is now 19 killed and they were pounded for over an hour. also, the un having its own sources on the spot has uncharacteristically for them (when speaking of the us actions) called the deed criminal.

of course, we don't hear from the state department that their own bombing has killed just during the 'coalition operations' in the last 13 months hundreds (per the western independents) or thousands (per arabic sources i try to avoid)

Airwars project details ‘credible reports’ of at least 459 non-combatant deaths, including 100 children, in 52 air strikes
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/03/us-led-air-strikes-on-isis-targets-killed-more-than-450-civilians-report

a pro-western syrian observatory for human rights (it was the 1st reporting civilian casualties from the russian sorties), admits to 162 innocent civilians killed by the us-lead coalition, including 51 children and 35 women

...and 64 civilians killed by a massacre committed by the U.S led coalition warplanes on Friday’s night in 04/30/2015 when they targeted Bir Mahli village near the town of Serrin in Aleppo with several air strikes, and the death toll of this massacre includes: 31 children under the age of 16 including ( 16 females and 15 males ).
– 19 women above the age of 18. – 13 men above the age of 18.– A 18 years old boy.

http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/06/about-3000-people-including-162-civilians-killed-in-us-coalition-airstrikes-on-areas-in-syria/

include in this tragic hypocrisy yesterday's written declaration of the 7 states to russia to stop killing civilians signed by such champions of human rights as the saudis and turkey.
Saudi-led coalition jets kill 20 at a wake in Yemen: residents
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/06/us-yemen-security-idUSKCN0R60CA20150906

again, i am citing only the western sources for the west's and their allies deeds and words.

....this morning listened to an interview on CBC radio with an official at the hospital and unless the guy was either blind or handsomely paid off it was an exceptional surgical strike...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re:

Any official using the words 'collateral damage' should be put into prison.
It's one of the most disgusting phrases out there.

....which prison do you have in mind?....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....surgical strike update....

"UN says Afghan hospital bombing may be 'war crime'

1 hr ago - UN rights chief says strike on MSF hospital that killed 19, including doctors, is "inexcusable" as US forces apologise. The US-led air strike on a hospital in the Afghan city of Kunduz that killed at least 19 people, including 12 staff of Doctors Wi ... (Aljazeera)"

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....find below an interesting article that outlines a timeline of recent Syrian history leading to the present quagmire....do note similarities to other recent quagmires with the following sticking out like the proverbial sore thumb among those similarities...like a quagmire is never a real seriously insane quagmire without CIA involvement?....

"....March, 1949 CIA sponsors Syrian coup d’etat; CIA directly involved...."

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/cia-interventions-in-syria-a-partial-timeline/

....and here is an article that fleshes out the more recent developments in said quagmire....needlessly to say it neatly builds on the timeline outlined above and continues to pile monumental stupidity and arrogance onto already monumental stupidity and arrogance ( which btw have the hallmarks of US of A foreign policy adventures )....

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/10/02/obama-tolerates-the-warmongers/

....and a word from Pat Buchanan on the current state of nearby quagmires....

http://buchanan.org/blog/the-mind-of-mr-putin-124130



Cheers

 

[BigMac]

Incumbent government wins Portuguese general elections with 43% of votes (according to most recent projections) against PS' 36%. Oh well.