World Politics

[blutto]

....and oh, a little something about that Russian intrusion into Turkish air space....its complisticated so do read carefully...

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/russia-violates-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border.html

Cheers

 

[python]

whilst the us continues to to decline the efforts at broader cooperation in syria, it appears it's 'allies' are either smarter or better informed...

1st it was an emergency trip by the israeli brass to moscow, then we heard that even the russia 'harassed and humiliated' turkey was starting talks and now:

The Minister of defense of Saudi Arabia goes to Sochi to meet with Putin
http://en.news-4-u.ru/the-minister-of-defense-of-saudi-arabia-goes-to-sochi-to-meet-with-putin.html

i wonder if a superpower's super pride looks like a super stupidity

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

....and oh, a little something about that Russian intrusion into Turkish air space....its complisticated so do read carefully...

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/russia-violates-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border.html

Cheers

And almost a third of the Russian cruise missiles landed in Iran..ooops, I guess Russian technology not ready for prime time. Also using a bunch of SU-25 Frogfoots...not gonna be long before one of the 'rebels' bags one of those..with what type weapon? I wonder( I don't really).

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

....and oh, a little something about that Russian intrusion into Turkish air space....its complisticated so do read carefully...

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/russia-violates-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border.html

Cheers

And almost a third of the Russian cruise missiles landed in Iran..ooops, I guess Russian technology not ready for prime time. Also using a bunch of SU-25 Frogfoots...not gonna be long before one of the 'rebels' bags one of those..with what type weapon? I wonder( I don't really).

....footnotes? ( and please don't needelessly insult what little intelligence we collectively have by citing reports based on unnamed US officials...and as a bonus that will nicely reduce your search field to near zero... )....rebels?, yeah foreign mercenaries are technically rebels but functionally nothing more than thugs with guns with not a shred of altruistic motive....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....and now an article on what a huge pile of unadulterated crap that the MSM stories on Syria ( many of which are based on info from the aforementioned ubiquitous unnamed sources ) have created.... please take some time to read the following....by the time you are done you will come to believe Wag the Dog was not some weird comedy but how the world really operates....this is funny, this is staggering , this is disgusting, and this can drive one to tears...this is totally and absolutely forked, and the scary thing is most people are buying it....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article43085.htm

....100,000 mules indeed.....

Cheers

 

[frenchfry]

Re:

....don't look now but more people jumping on the Russia is doin' good in Syria....this time its a prominent surrender monkey ( you know those foolish Frenchie types who kept screaming that the Iraqi invasion would be a mistake.....and from the "how can we forget file" the inspiration for Freedom Fries.....)...

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/france-backs-russia-targeting-all-terrorists-syria/ri10283

Cheers

Couldn't agree more.

French military intervention is totally motivated by a president who is scraping the bottom in public opinion polls using military force in order to look like a strong and powerful leader. Pathetic political recuperation, nothing more.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

....and oh, a little something about that Russian intrusion into Turkish air space....its complisticated so do read carefully...

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/russia-violates-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border.html

Cheers

And almost a third of the Russian cruise missiles landed in Iran..ooops, I guess Russian technology not ready for prime time. Also using a bunch of SU-25 Frogfoots...not gonna be long before one of the 'rebels' bags one of those..with what type weapon? I wonder( I don't really).

....footnotes? ( and please don't needelessly insult what little intelligence we collectively have by citing reports based on unnamed US officials...and as a bonus that will nicely reduce your search field to near zero... )....rebels?, yeah foreign mercenaries are technically rebels but functionally nothing more than thugs with guns with not a shred of altruistic motive....

Cheers

""We are basically novices in this type of war," said Ruslan Pukhov, a defense expert and director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, in an interview. "And when you are a novice, you are doomed to commit some kinds of mistakes. Hopefully not deadly ones, but obviously there is a risk of casualties."

Believe what ya want but Russian 'technology' is in it's infancy. Most of the bombs dropped in Syria are dumb bombs, by SU-24/5, aircraft designed and first flown in the 60s/70s, something the US/NATO hasn't used for a couple of decades.

Even the SU-34 is 90s tech. And when they DO mix it up, the way it'll end up.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

....and oh, a little something about that Russian intrusion into Turkish air space....its complisticated so do read carefully...

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/russia-violates-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border.html

Cheers

And almost a third of the Russian cruise missiles landed in Iran..ooops, I guess Russian technology not ready for prime time. Also using a bunch of SU-25 Frogfoots...not gonna be long before one of the 'rebels' bags one of those..with what type weapon? I wonder( I don't really).

....footnotes? ( and please don't needelessly insult what little intelligence we collectively have by citing reports based on unnamed US officials...and as a bonus that will nicely reduce your search field to near zero... )....rebels?, yeah foreign mercenaries are technically rebels but functionally nothing more than thugs with guns with not a shred of altruistic motive....

Cheers

""We are basically novices in this type of war," said Ruslan Pukhov, a defense expert and director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, in an interview. "And when you are a novice, you are doomed to commit some kinds of mistakes. Hopefully not deadly ones, but obviously there is a risk of casualties."

Believe what ya want but Russian 'technology' is in it's infancy. Most of the bombs dropped in Syria are dumb bombs, by SU-24/5, aircraft designed and first flown in the 60s/70s, something the US/NATO hasn't used for a couple of decades.

Even the SU-34 is 90s tech. And when they DO mix it up, the way it'll end up.

...so no references or footnotes for your earlier assertion eh.... some quotes with no specific context just ain't gonna cut it here in this hallowed forum, like we got standards eh....btw that is the kind of stuff we typically get from NoCred and frankly one NoCred type per forum is already the limit for this kind of forum behaviour, at least according to the Geneva Convention on Forum Behaviour ....so youse got to up your game and unfortunately this has to graded as an epic fail, you get an F....

...that being said that quote you provided certainly has bounced around the echo chambers....and given the bandwidth being used to comment on this topic one would think that at least one of the numerous commentators would come with something, anything either different or more relevant...the fact they haven't leads one to believe there is a marked lack of evidence for the claims....

....so speaking of dumb bombs whatcha think of the precision with which the hospital in Afghanistan was destroyed...real good leading edge type weapons thingees or what...too bad about the human element though... and speaking of the smart bombs used by Exceptionalistan and its allies, do you have any idea how that family gatherings/weddings targeting app works because that is one cracker-jack app, I mean just look at all the weddings and family gatherings it has helped absolutely obliterate with such deadly accuracy in Afghanistan and now in Yemen...really really impressive...

Cheers

 

[frenchfry]

Re: Re:

....don't look now but more people jumping on the Russia is doin' good in Syria....this time its a prominent surrender monkey ( you know those foolish Frenchie types who kept screaming that the Iraqi invasion would be a mistake.....and from the "how can we forget file" the inspiration for Freedom Fries.....)...

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/france-backs-russia-targeting-all-terrorists-syria/ri10283

Cheers

Couldn't agree more.

French military intervention is totally motivated by a president who is scraping the bottom in public opinion polls using military force in order to look like a strong and powerful leader. Pathetic political recuperation, nothing more.

Also great marketing for the Rafale, international sales are starting to take off!

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

....don't look now but more people jumping on the Russia is doin' good in Syria....this time its a prominent surrender monkey ( you know those foolish Frenchie types who kept screaming that the Iraqi invasion would be a mistake.....and from the "how can we forget file" the inspiration for Freedom Fries.....)...

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/france-backs-russia-targeting-all-terrorists-syria/ri10283

Cheers

Couldn't agree more.

French military intervention is totally motivated by a president who is scraping the bottom in public opinion polls using military force in order to look like a strong and powerful leader. Pathetic political recuperation, nothing more.

Also great marketing for the Rafale, international sales are starting to take off!

....is that a cheese sauce or something....?.....

Cheers

 

[python]

...several things to clarify, at least based on what i have read and believe sounds plausible.

about the 'Rafale international sales are starting to take off''.

not really, if anything the french fighter is hitting some serious roadblock. specifically india scaled back its order by 70% and the indian yesterday invitation for more proposals means no french is desired.
India's 36 Rafale Fighter Purchase From France Hits Roadblocks
http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/indias-36-rafale-fighter-purchase-from-france-hits-roadblocks/

who do you think is likely to fill the void ? sure the us will try, but the indians have shown their preference many times, including the latest air superiority fighters - russia.

do some googling if interested, the absolute majority of their high tech orders went to russia, including as late as last year. and the indians do know how to fly those suckoy birds. again, they have beaten ameican top gun boys in test/simulation games, a well known fact. and more that once

Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p01s04-wosc.html

back to the glamorous french rafale fighter, i did read today that the syrian kurds suspected being attacked by the french rafales today ('they were those triangular/ delta wing planes that bombed us'). of course, the french claimed to bomb isis...i don't have enough info to believe or disbelieve the french claims, but they they lie occasionally or puff their hollow chests all he time isn't a huge finding.

regarding the busted posts, take it easier on the chap. i stopped to refute him. i have long found out that he not only does not do the elementary research to back up his, mildly speaking, ignorant economic claims, but that even the area he claims to be a professional in - the military aviation - is no more informative that the posters on the walls on the gi recruiting hubs. for instance, his claims of the old and aged planes a said adversary flies in syria is - as in almost no other air force - is very applicable to the us. such 50's and 60s and 70s dinosaurs as b-52 and a-10 are still in service. and even the vaunted f-15 and f-16 are the the planes from the 80s. what he conveniently, or out of his partisanship does nor tell, is that ALL air forces rely on old frames that have proven themselves, relying instead, on the upgrades in weapons, avionics, navigation etc...

all that said, i don't think that busted is anything other that an upright retired military with a particular ideological tilt.

 

[frenchfry]

"about the 'Rafale international sales are starting to take off''.

not really, if anything the french fighter is hitting some serious roadblock. specifically india scaled back its order by 70% and the indian yesterday invitation for more proposals means no french is desired.
India's 36 Rafale Fighter Purchase From France Hits Roadblocks

Given that less than a year ago there were 0 international sales, 100%-70%=30% is still taking off - relatively speaking.

Interesting that when the Indian contract was signed, there was an incredible amount of political grandstanding. On the other hand, I have seen nothing on the 70% reduction. Politics has become nothing more than communication and marketing.

 

[python]

if you'RE still trying to sort out the syrian mess as opposed to falling in line with the mass media and policy spinners from either side, the following poll/survey by a respectable western think tank (foreign affairs) is very interesting and thought provoking.

Should the United States Work With Russia in Syria?
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/syria/2015-10-08/should-united-states-work-russia-syria

of the 33 experts in the field of international affairs asked, 19 answered 'should' or 'neutral' and 14 responded 'should not'. their brief comments are included.

the sample selection of the respondents is curious and telling - almost all are americans or work for americans academia. many were either formerly involved in the policy making, intelligence analysis or the miscellaneous foreign service duties, both dems and reps, some are neocons or liberals. also telling is that not a single commentator from the european or pro-russian think tanks was polled.

my conclusion ?

not everything is lost in the way american democracy still ticks and a reasonable, transparent public discussion is still possible. if such a discussion is taking place inside the president circle i don't know, but that it is absent in the american msm is clear, thus the mass brain washing.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

....and oh, a little something about that Russian intrusion into Turkish air space....its complisticated so do read carefully...

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/russia-violates-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border.html

Cheers

And almost a third of the Russian cruise missiles landed in Iran..ooops, I guess Russian technology not ready for prime time. Also using a bunch of SU-25 Frogfoots...not gonna be long before one of the 'rebels' bags one of those..with what type weapon? I wonder( I don't really).

....footnotes? ( and please don't needelessly insult what little intelligence we collectively have by citing reports based on unnamed US officials...and as a bonus that will nicely reduce your search field to near zero... )....rebels?, yeah foreign mercenaries are technically rebels but functionally nothing more than thugs with guns with not a shred of altruistic motive....

Cheers

""We are basically novices in this type of war," said Ruslan Pukhov, a defense expert and director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, in an interview. "And when you are a novice, you are doomed to commit some kinds of mistakes. Hopefully not deadly ones, but obviously there is a risk of casualties."

Believe what ya want but Russian 'technology' is in it's infancy. Most of the bombs dropped in Syria are dumb bombs, by SU-24/5, aircraft designed and first flown in the 60s/70s, something the US/NATO hasn't used for a couple of decades.

Even the SU-34 is 90s tech. And when they DO mix it up, the way it'll end up.

...so no references or footnotes for your earlier assertion eh.... some quotes with no specific context just ain't gonna cut it here in this hallowed forum, like we got standards eh....btw that is the kind of stuff we typically get from NoCred and frankly one NoCred type per forum is already the limit for this kind of forum behaviour, at least according to the Geneva Convention on Forum Behaviour ....so youse got to up your game and unfortunately this has to graded as an epic fail, you get an F....

...that being said that quote you provided certainly has bounced around the echo chambers....and given the bandwidth being used to comment on this topic one would think that at least one of the numerous commentators would come with something, anything either different or more relevant...the fact they haven't leads one to believe there is a marked lack of evidence for the claims....

....so speaking of dumb bombs whatcha think of the precision with which the hospital in Afghanistan was destroyed...real good leading edge type weapons thingees or what...too bad about the human element though... and speaking of the smart bombs used by Exceptionalistan and its allies, do you have any idea how that family gatherings/weddings targeting app works because that is one cracker-jack app, I mean just look at all the weddings and family gatherings it has helped absolutely obliterate with such deadly accuracy in Afghanistan and now in Yemen...really really impressive...

Cheers

Probably a AC-130 Gunship-Magic Dragon..VERY accurate.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

regarding the busted posts, take it easier on the chap. i stopped to refute him. i have long found out that he not only does not do the elementary research to back up his, mildly speaking, ignorant economic claims, but that even the area he claims to be a professional in - the military aviation - is no more informative that the posters on the walls on the gi recruiting hubs. for instance, his claims of the old and aged planes a said adversary flies in syria is - as in almost no other air force - is very applicable to the us. such 50's and 60s and 70s dinosaurs as b-52 and a-10 are still in service. and even the vaunted f-15 and f-16 are the the planes from the 80s. what he conveniently, or out of his partisanship does nor tell, is that ALL air forces rely on old frames that have proven themselves, relying instead, on the upgrades in weapons, avionics, navigation etc...

all that said, i don't think that busted is anything other that an upright retired military with a particular ideological tilt.

Yup. B-52 is old, A-10 is too. F-15/16/18 old designs too but the aircraft flown are a pretty modern manufacture with the lastest block upgrades. Unlike the Frogfoot and S-24, which are flying essentially unmodified since they were built 20-30 or so years ago. F-15C/E, F-16C and F-18E/F very modern in terms of avionics.

No F-22 in the mix yet but if there is a no fly zone, expect them. BUT the smart air forces(not Russia) does their fighting at night. Much better results and less aircraft losses but Russia isn't there yet. NVG on SU-25? I don't think so.

Guilty. I trained to go toe to toe with the Russian Bear(then Soviet Union) for 20 years, I know a thing or two about their and our, tactics and capability.

Tell me of your service to your country Python...

 

[wendybnt]

This interesting story relating to Turkey is not the sideshow of an alledged incursion into Turkish airspace.

The real story is the Turkish reaction to Kurdish ability to hold off IS in northern Iraq, the resurgence of Kurdish power and the corresponding reaction of the Turkish government by restarting the war with the PKK in Turkey.

Yesterday's bomb says it all. A Kurdish peace march. Erdogan's government already accusing IS and 'far-left extremists'.

yeah right.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

....and oh, a little something about that Russian intrusion into Turkish air space....its complisticated so do read carefully...

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/russia-violates-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border.html

Cheers

And almost a third of the Russian cruise missiles landed in Iran..ooops, I guess Russian technology not ready for prime time. Also using a bunch of SU-25 Frogfoots...not gonna be long before one of the 'rebels' bags one of those..with what type weapon? I wonder( I don't really).

....footnotes? ( and please don't needelessly insult what little intelligence we collectively have by citing reports based on unnamed US officials...and as a bonus that will nicely reduce your search field to near zero... )....rebels?, yeah foreign mercenaries are technically rebels but functionally nothing more than thugs with guns with not a shred of altruistic motive....

Cheers

""We are basically novices in this type of war," said Ruslan Pukhov, a defense expert and director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, in an interview. "And when you are a novice, you are doomed to commit some kinds of mistakes. Hopefully not deadly ones, but obviously there is a risk of casualties."

Believe what ya want but Russian 'technology' is in it's infancy. Most of the bombs dropped in Syria are dumb bombs, by SU-24/5, aircraft designed and first flown in the 60s/70s, something the US/NATO hasn't used for a couple of decades.

Even the SU-34 is 90s tech. And when they DO mix it up, the way it'll end up.

...so no references or footnotes for your earlier assertion eh.... some quotes with no specific context just ain't gonna cut it here in this hallowed forum, like we got standards eh....btw that is the kind of stuff we typically get from NoCred and frankly one NoCred type per forum is already the limit for this kind of forum behaviour, at least according to the Geneva Convention on Forum Behaviour ....so youse got to up your game and unfortunately this has to graded as an epic fail, you get an F....

...that being said that quote you provided certainly has bounced around the echo chambers....and given the bandwidth being used to comment on this topic one would think that at least one of the numerous commentators would come with something, anything either different or more relevant...the fact they haven't leads one to believe there is a marked lack of evidence for the claims....

....so speaking of dumb bombs whatcha think of the precision with which the hospital in Afghanistan was destroyed...real good leading edge type weapons thingees or what...too bad about the human element though... and speaking of the smart bombs used by Exceptionalistan and its allies, do you have any idea how that family gatherings/weddings targeting app works because that is one cracker-jack app, I mean just look at all the weddings and family gatherings it has helped absolutely obliterate with such deadly accuracy in Afghanistan and now in Yemen...really really impressive...

Cheers

Probably a AC-130 Gunship-Magic Dragon..VERY accurate.[/quote]
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....and oddly enough is only consistently effective in environments in which the adversary is either primitive, or poor....that it remains in the Exceptionalistan catalog speaks volumes doesn't it...

Cheers

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

....and oddly enough is only consistently effective in environments in which the adversary is either primitive, or poor....that it remains in the Exceptionalistan catalog speaks volumes doesn't it...

Cheers[/quote]

Is the taliban or ISIS primitive or poor? It's effective in environments where the threat to it is such that it can be effective. With air superiority and after an effective SEAD program.

Was the hitting of the hospital a mistake-you bet. But the real question is why was it targeted? I don't know, neither do you.

 

[wendybnt]

I don't think the US does targets that aren't in primitive countries, do they.

Probably, even more on their mind after their defeat in Iraq

 

[python]

Re: Re:

Tell me of your service to your country Python...

i never was in the military service of any country b/c strictly speaking i dont have an allegiance to any - except for a weird and vanishing affinity to the cold and snowy locale i migrated from being a very young man... lived all over, worked all over including now in your homestead...besides, i'd probably not fit into any military mentally (given my fiercely non-conformist mindset) and physically, that is fitting into various machine, much less a slick fighter, being almost 2 meters 'long'.

what i write on the military is pure hobby, an adult's expression of a boy loving his toys, if you wish. be it a military history or military hardware - i am a total amateur, but with an analytical twist. probably a consequence of being a scientist.

 

[wendybnt]

In which case you are probably more qualified to talk about military matters in a balanced way, rather than a dunderheaded brainwashed ex-serviceman whose training was all about not thinking for himself, and following orders unquestioningly, without any consideration to the contribution of their actions to immorality and suffering.

EDIT: I realise this looks like it was aimed at Bustedknuckle, but it wasn't. It is a general point

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

In which case you are probably more qualified to talk about military matters in a balanced way, rather than a dunderheaded brainwashed ex-serviceman whose training was all about not thinking for himself, and following orders unquestioningly, without any consideration to the contribution of their actions to immorality and suffering.

Thank goodness we have people like you to protect.

"I don't agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say them'..civilians, gotta love 'em.

Yup, military isn't for everybody. Killing people and breaking things is what we train to do. Unfortunately, being under civilian leadership-the UK and Australia also(your 'homes'), they are the ones that goon things up.

You are welcome, BTW-WWII....

 

[wendybnt]

The US has attacked 70 countries since 1945. I think that says it all.

BTW, ww2 was a clash of empires, the waning British one (you know, the one that spawned you and me) and the emergent German one in the West and Japanese one in the East.

US did very well out of that war. Nothing about their involvement was about doing anything other than spreading their own empire.

P's. Auckland is in NZ.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

The US has attacked 70 countries since 1945. I think that says it all.

BTW, ww2 was a clash of empires, the waning British one (you know, the one that spawned you and me) and the emergent German one in the West and Japanese one in the East.

US did very well out of that war. Nothing about their involvement was about doing anything other than spreading their own empire.

P's. Auckland is in NZ.

Not sure what it says..How many has the SovietUnion/Russia/China/various middle easy countries 'attacked'?

Hope you don't include Korea as one, that the US attacked.

Yup, the world is a violent place, has been since whenever..sorry, there actually is a need for a military, for good or ill. And let's not confuse the 'military' with the civilian leadership I mentioned before.

"“War is nothing but a continuation of politics with the admixture of other means.”-Clausewitz...but the 'politics' starts with civilians.

Yup, sorry..kinda like the southern hemisphere version of Ireland.

"New Zealand's armed forces have three defence policy objectives: to defend New Zealand against low-level threats; to contribute to regional security; and to play a part in global security efforts. New Zealand considers its own national defence needs to be modest, due to its geographical isolation and benign relationships with neighbours.[4] As of November 2014 120 NZDF personnel are deployed overseas on operations and UN missions in the South Pacific, Asia, Africa, Antarctica and Middle East areas, and over 200 on other overseas engagements or exercises."

Nobody dislikes combat more than those who must do it. The military is not like the movies, it is death and destruction, it is dirty, it is sad...but it is what it is...

Be thankful you have the right to say whatever you wish.

As for WWII, don't forget Russia in that little equation you wrote. And Europe as a whole, and China..And inconvenient things like the Holocaust and the rape of Nanking, and the Bataan death march..war is ugly.

Look up the death rate for various POWs..in German camps, in US camps and in Japanese camps. war is ugly.

 

[wendybnt]

No ***.

What the figure of 70 attacked countries shows is that the US military is used as the executive arm of the corporations, whether they be petro-chemicals, arms , or Coca-Cola.

There hasn't been a war about defending US territory, since....ooh...I don't know when, unless of course you count the attack on a US military base on the annexed island of Hawaii.

Nothing about the US military is honourable, so if you try and serve that crap up here you'll get it handed to you on a plate. That there are American people desperate, vulnerable, or stupid enough to be suckered into murdering penniless brown people on behalf of the Bush oil family and their cronies is tragic. That you buy the lie is even more tragic.

Open your eyes.