World Politics

Page 696 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
...looks like the already red-hot syrian conflict is approaching its next military escalation.

just read on reuters that turkey accused russia of violating its airspace. the f-16 intercepted their jet. the furious turkish govt handed an official diplomatic protests and is calling for a nato consultation on the matter in order to establish what they've wanted for a while but ran into the us opposition - a no fly zone along in kurdish syria.

setting up the very no fly zone could be the detonation leading to the next escalation - the actual facing off between the nato/turkish and russian/syrian air forces. here's why.

according to the article in the financial times (behind a pay wall) the timing of the russian sudden injection in syria was to prevent the very no-fly zone that was about to be introduced on the turkey's insistence.

The Russian forces now in place make it very, very obvious that any kind of no-fly zone on the Libyan model imposed by the US and allies is now impossible, unless the coalition is actually willing to shoot down Russian aircraft,” The Financial Times quotes Justin Bronk, a research analyst at the Royal United Services Institute as saying. The Russians are not playing ball at deconfliction — they are just saying, ‘keep out of our way

and now we here of the turkish airspace violation, which by the way is a hard fact reported even by the russian english outlets BUT, what's most curious, there is NO automatic indignant protest at the 'libelous' western media, not even an official denial...

did vlad 'send another message' ? Why? :confused:

i smell powder :eek:
 
Jul 23, 2009
5,412
19
17,510
Re: Re:

blutto said:
Glenn_Wilson said:
python said:
in syria things are hotting up very quickly. :cool: :cool:

i posted already that this morning vlad received his rubber-stamping parliament an ok to unleash his military. and now this, which if true, is a water shedding happening:

First US-Russian air clash builds up as Moscow orders US planes to exit Syrian air space
http://www.debka.com/article/24915/First-US-Russian-air-clash-builds-up-as-Moscow-orders-US-planes-to-exit-Syrian-air-space

wow

a few words on the source reliability and accuracy- the debkafile...it is an israeli site which i first came across in 2008 b/c some solid western think tanks used it as a reference or a source in the 2008 georgia war. many of their reports proved true, some false and almost all are clearly jumping with 'we were the 1st'. some observers believe it is an Israeli-intelligence-connected feeler tasked with throwing bits of facts 'out there' designed to test a public reaction for israel's benefit.
I read somewhere this morning (trying to find the quote and source now) that it was confirmed that Russia did in fact order the USA air out of Syrian airspace. Looks like Putin has taken over.

Any opinion on will this end up in a quagmire much like our USA's Iraq and Afghanistan (also Russia's Afghanistan) wars.

....kinda depends on whether the money to keep the mercenaries, errrr, rebels paid keeps flowing....this is crucial since they have virtually no support in Syria and are primarily foreigners to boot ( unlike the other quagmires mentioned which were to a large extent based on indigenous fighters and issues )...

Cheers

And the US refused, of course. It will be interesting in any air-air conflict, considering the Russian aircraft being used and the pilots currency and proficiency(low). Old cold war aircraft. SU-24 and SU-25..no GCI, turkey shoot.

It's a mess..proxy war against NATO and Russia..I think I know who will blink first.
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
Re: Re:

busted wrote:
Old cold war aircraft. SU-24 and SU-25..no GCI, turkey shoot.
this is not so, busted. at least not according to those multiple military aviation analysts in the west[/quote] i, the complete amateur, read.

here's one, ' The Aviationist has become one of world’s most authoritative and read military aviation websites. On a daily basis, it is quoted, cited or linked by the most important media outlets across the five continents'
This cool Infographic says all you need to know about the Sukhoi Su-34 the most advanced Russian plane in Syria
http://theaviationist.com/2015/10/04/this-cool-infographic-says-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-sukhoi-su-34-the-most-advanced-russian-plane-in-syria/

this plane not old by any means, entering their service in 2014. regarding the other 'olds', according to the national intrest analysts they are all designated 'm' -modernized, nothing like what was used in georgia, ukraine , afghanistan. upgraded for precision weapons and so on. also, according to the israelis - the most watchful and informed party there - they flew over six newest su-30 generation 4++ fighters - the real reason the israelis begged for a meeting with vlad.

but, all that shiny gear not withstanding, i would bet on a nato pilot training in a f-22 each and every time
It's a mess..proxy war against NATO and Russia..I think I know who will blink first.
[/quote][/quote][/quote]agree, but i do not think it is about the proxies anymore. vlad is driving for something that would spark a 'limited' show down to be followed by a rush to diplomacy after everyone gets scared shytless.

if he miscalculates, he's done, imo.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
...kinda curious .. what legality has the US used to support their presence in the skies over Syria....

Cheers
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
Re:

blutto said:
...kinda curious .. what legality has the US used to support their presence in the skies over Syria....

Cheers
respectfully, but kinda an irrelevant question. for all intents and purposes, the americans are NOT flying in the syrian skies anymore. at least until they get an ok. he's why

...military sources point out that Russia, without saying so publicly, has thus created an effective no-fly zone over most of Syria, most of northern Israel, including the Golan, as well as southern Turkey, for US aircraft based there for air strikes in Syria; Cyprus, the site of British air force bases; and Jordan. Since 2012, The Obama administration has been discussing the possibility of establishing no-fly zones in northern and southern Syria on a number of occasions, but has shelved the plan whenever a decision was imminent. Now, with one move, Moscow has imposed a no-fly zone over Syria.
The presence of the wide-ranging S-300s means that the Turkish, British, Israeli and Jordanian air forces will need to coordinate their aerial operations in Syrian or Lebanese airspace with Russia, or face the risk of their planes being shot down.
http://www.debka.com/article/24929/With-Russia%E2%80%99s-Dep-Army-Chief-due-in-Israel-Moscow-posts-64-S-300-ship-to-air-missiles-off-Syria-N-Israel

i already once addressed this israeli source as a likely intelligence sounding board.

for a reference, the s-300 missiles are the very same that israel vehemently protested against being sold to iran and syria, but apparently could not do much when vlad put them on his ships.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Re: Re:

python said:
blutto said:
...kinda curious .. what legality has the US used to support their presence in the skies over Syria....

Cheers
respectfully, but kinda an irrelevant question. for all intents and purposes, the americans are NOT flying in the syrian skies anymore. at least until they get an ok. he's why

...military sources point out that Russia, without saying so publicly, has thus created an effective no-fly zone over most of Syria, most of northern Israel, including the Golan, as well as southern Turkey, for US aircraft based there for air strikes in Syria; Cyprus, the site of British air force bases; and Jordan. Since 2012, The Obama administration has been discussing the possibility of establishing no-fly zones in northern and southern Syria on a number of occasions, but has shelved the plan whenever a decision was imminent. Now, with one move, Moscow has imposed a no-fly zone over Syria.
The presence of the wide-ranging S-300s means that the Turkish, British, Israeli and Jordanian air forces will need to coordinate their aerial operations in Syrian or Lebanese airspace with Russia, or face the risk of their planes being shot down.
http://www.debka.com/article/24929/With-Russia%E2%80%99s-Dep-Army-Chief-due-in-Israel-Moscow-posts-64-S-300-ship-to-air-missiles-off-Syria-N-Israel

i already once addressed this israeli source as a likely intelligence sounding board.

for a reference, the s-300 missiles are the very same that israel vehemently protested against being sold to iran and syria, but apparently could not do much when vlad put them on his ships.

...so suddenly its now irrelevant eh....okie dokie....

....but at one point the exceptional forces of democracy and world peace were most certainly making up stories about Syria, errrr, make that running bombing sorties into Syria, as were the Turks, and the Israelis....so let me rephrase that and ask what was the legal justification for those intrusions into Syrian airspace when things were, uhhhh, relevant....

Cheers
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
Re: Re:

blutto said:
python said:
blutto said:
...kinda curious .. what legality has the US used to support their presence in the skies over Syria....

Cheers
respectfully, but kinda an irrelevant question. for all intents and purposes, the americans are NOT flying in the syrian skies anymore. at least until they get an ok. he's why

...military sources point out that Russia, without saying so publicly, has thus created an effective no-fly zone over most of Syria, most of northern Israel, including the Golan, as well as southern Turkey, for US aircraft based there for air strikes in Syria; Cyprus, the site of British air force bases; and Jordan. Since 2012, The Obama administration has been discussing the possibility of establishing no-fly zones in northern and southern Syria on a number of occasions, but has shelved the plan whenever a decision was imminent. Now, with one move, Moscow has imposed a no-fly zone over Syria.
The presence of the wide-ranging S-300s means that the Turkish, British, Israeli and Jordanian air forces will need to coordinate their aerial operations in Syrian or Lebanese airspace with Russia, or face the risk of their planes being shot down.
http://www.debka.com/article/24929/With-Russia%E2%80%99s-Dep-Army-Chief-due-in-Israel-Moscow-posts-64-S-300-ship-to-air-missiles-off-Syria-N-Israel

i already once addressed this israeli source as a likely intelligence sounding board.

for a reference, the s-300 missiles are the very same that israel vehemently protested against being sold to iran and syria, but apparently could not do much when vlad put them on his ships.

...so suddenly its now irrelevant eh....okie dokie....

....but at one point the exceptional forces of democracy and world peace were most certainly making up stories about Syria, errrr, make that running bombing sorties into Syria, as were the Turks, and the Israelis....so let me rephrase that and ask what was the legal justification for those intrusions into Syrian airspace when things were, uhhhh, relevant....

Cheers
i did not mean to diminish your concern, but not being a lawyer (perhaps some here are) i just see the whole issue of legality, particularly in the international affairs, as an abstract category that more frequently than not ends up in a hard reality of 'might is right'.

in that post above, i illustrated that the us omni might in syria has effectively been undercut and there will be no legal justification in the world the us could use - even if there was one which of course there is none - that would redress the situation.

but i will attempt my honest best...usually, one reads that the international legality of an interference of one nation into another is granted either by a sovereign govt invitation or the resolution of the un sec council.

as a european i can tell you that when the imbecile bush jr went into iraq w/o the un permission it was a genuine sentiment across western europe that the adventure therefore was illegal.

that said, i dont put too much meaning into the term 'internationally legal'. not when it is used by the us, france, russia or whoever b/c to me it is fig leaf most use and abuse to justify their political expediency, particularly, when they can get away with it or, like in the case with the us, get away AND make others to pick up the bill. yes, it is my opinion the us got away with it for way too long and now russia, though their pre text in syria is technically legal, is playing smart power politics the us always did.

but it is still a huge gamble by vlad. so far it looks like a tactical masterstroke, but strategically it's far from clear. any talk of legality by whoever imo is a convenient cover, though, one has to love how vlad stole the american 'freedom and democracy' thunder.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
....the reason I brought that up is that legality is one of the things the Russians are pinning their adventure in Syria on....which on first blush seemed a little weird in that everybody and his neocon brother has been sending sorties into Syria.....

....but as I searched my memory banks the only thing that kept popping up was the use of the moral high ground as justification, which to me seemed like they had no legal justification and were playing the morals card because it is the only play they could make...

....but the morals card is a little weird in so much as the only anti-Assad position is populated by foreign mercenaries ( driven by either money or religion ) who have little or no support among the Syrians....and among whom the best thing the US of A can put forth as moderate is al-Qaeda....and the three guys they trained at a cost of $500mil are long in the wind ? joined al-Qaeda? been bombed into the stone age?....

....so legalities, while seemingly quaint, do somehow play a role....Putin used them and the exceptional ones backed off....but you are right they were not a major issue when the exceptional guys in the white hats were blowing things up....

...and yeah it may be "technical" but it still is either legal or not legal....or just throw legality out and just make it a free-for-all....

Cheers
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
...yesterday i posted about the 1st violation of the turkish air space and how it was neatly fitting into a string of quite aggressive russian air force moves (all posted in this thread)

what did the us/nato respond ? turkey handed 'the most energetic' protest to the vlad envoy and their statement (i personally read) said the consequences of another similar incident will be on the intruder (read: we'll blow you out of our sky)...the nato fiery warning, in turn, featured such words as 'immediately seize and desist' or else...

what did the russians say ? yeah, we accidentally strayed in, but that's b/c of the weather...will not happen again

and here just 1 day later the turks accused russia of another violation.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKCN0S00SX20151006?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

moreover, the turks officially accused another unidentified intruder of harassing their intercepting f-16s by locking its radar on their planes.

again, are the russians so inapt that they dont know where the heck they are flying or there is another reason ?

some clarity was introduced by the specialist site i linked to yesterday - the aviationist. they posit it is too unusual for a fighter equipped with the latest navigation gear to err 2 times in a row. they also explained that there was no unidentified fighter that locked its radar on the turks. it was the same latest russian air superiority su-30SM that was intercepted on saturday. the fact that the turks detected its locked radar for over 5 minutes ('we were harassed') means the the russian was ready to fire its missiles while in the turkish space either in self defense or conversely ready to execute its own attack.

and here we got the 2nd violation before the 1st 'apology' got absorbed.

as the analyst quoted in the financial times yesterday said, 'they are not talking about deconfliction, they are saying get out of our way.

what are the nato strong men going to do now when the 'last warning' was trounced ?
 
Jul 23, 2009
5,412
19
17,510
Re:

python said:
...yesterday i posted about the 1st violation of the turkish air space and how it was neatly fitting into a string of quite aggressive russian air force moves (all posted in this thread)

what did the us/nato respond ? turkey handed 'the most energetic' protest to the vlad envoy and their statement (i personally read) said the consequences of another similar incident will be on the intruder (read: we'll blow you out of our sky)...the nato fiery warning, in turn, featured such words as 'immediately seize and desist' or else...

what did the russians say ? yeah, we accidentally strayed in, but that's b/c of the weather...will not happen again

and here just 1 day later the turks accused russia of another violation.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKCN0S00SX20151006?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

moreover, the turks officially accused another unidentified intruder of harassing their intercepting f-16s by locking its radar on their planes.

again, are the russians so inapt that they dont know where the heck they are flying or there is another reason ?

some clarity was introduced by the specialist site i linked to yesterday - the aviationist. they posit it is too unusual for a fighter equipped with the latest navigation gear to err 2 times in a row. they also explained that there was no unidentified fighter that locked its radar on the turks. it was the same latest russian air superiority su-30SM that was intercepted on saturday. the fact that the turks detected its locked radar for over 5 minutes ('we were harassed') means the the russian was ready to fire its missiles while in the turkish space either in self defense or conversely ready to execute its own attack.

and here we got the 2nd violation before the 1st 'apology' got absorbed.

as the analyst quoted in the financial times yesterday said, 'they are not talking about deconfliction, they are saying get out of our way.

what are the nato strong men going to do now when the 'last warning' was trounced ?

Testing their air defenses, their response, their aircraft. Russia's aircraft aren't well suited for an air to air battle tho, no GCI either. Always tough to fight in somebody else's back yard. I suspect one of their really old(SU-24/25) aircraft will get bagged then we'll see what happens. I wouldn't be surprised if Vlad would sacrifice one of his aircrew to cause an incident.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
....this Syria conflict is one epic clusterf%@k....probably the most clusterf%@kistical adventure in stupidity that the kings of douchebaggery, the neocons who seem to be the bright lights running ye olde US of A foreign policy, have ever cooked up....find below a comment on the current situation from a writer who is much more often that not dead-nuts-on.....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Syria’s ‘Moderates’ Have Disappeared... and There Are No Good Guys

Western confusion reigns while the Russians go for the jugular

By Robert Fisk
October 05, 2015 "Information Clearing House" - "The Independent" - The Russian air force in Syria has flown straight into the West’s fantasy air space. The Russians, we are now informed, are bombing the “moderates” in Syria – “moderates” whom even the Americans admitted two months ago, no longer existed.

It’s rather like the Isis fighters who left Europe to fight for the “Caliphate”.Remember them? Scarcely two months ago, our political leaders – and leader writers – were warning us all of the enormous danger posed by “home-grown” Islamists who were leaving Britain and other European countries and America to fight for the monsters of Isis. Then the hundreds of thousands of Muslim refugees began trekking up the Balkans towards Europe after risking death in the Mediterranean – and we were all told by the same political leaders to be fearful that Isis killers were among them.

It’s amazing how European Muslim fighters fly to Turkey to join Isis, and a few weeks later, they’re drowning in leaky boats or tramping back again and taking trains from Hungary to Germany. But if this nonsense was true, where did they get the time for all the terrorist training they need in order to attack us when they get back to Europe?

It is possible, of course, that this was mere storytelling. By contrast, the chorus of horror that has accompanied Russia’s cruel air strikes this past week has gone beyond sanity.

Let’s start with a reality check. The Russian military are killers who go for the jugular. They slaughtered the innocent of Chechnya to crush the Islamist uprising there, and they will cut down the innocent of Syria as they try to crush a new army of Islamists and save the ruthless regime of Bashar al-Assad. The Syrian army, some of whose members are war criminals, have struggled ferociously to preserve the state – and used barrel bombs to do it. They have also fought to the death.

“American officials” – those creatures beloved of The New York Times – claim that the Syrian army does not fight Isis. If true, who on earth killed the 56,000 Syrian soldiers – the statistic an official secret, but nonetheless true – who have so far died in the Syrian war? The preposterous Free Syrian Army (FSA)?

This rubbish has reached its crescendo in the on-again off-again saga of the Syrian “moderates”. These men were originally military defectors to the FSA, which America and European countries regarded as a possible pro-Western force to be used against the Syrian government army. But the FSA fell to pieces, corrupted, and the “moderates” defected all over again, this time to the Islamist Nusrah Front or to Isis, selling their American-supplied weapons to the highest bidder or merely retiring quietly – and wisely – to the countryside where they maintained a few scattered checkpoints.

Washington admitted their disappearance, bemoaned their fate, concluded that new “moderates” were required, persuaded the CIA to arm and train 70 fighters, and this summer packed them off across the Turkish border to fight – whereupon all but 10 were captured by Nusrah and at least two of them were executed by their captors. Just two weeks ago, I heard in person one of the most senior ex-US officers in Iraq – David Petraeus’s former No 2 in Baghdad – announce that the “moderates” had collapsed long ago. Now you see them – now you don’t.

But within hours of Russia’s air assaults last weekend, Washington, The New York Times, CNN, the poor old BBC and just about every newspaper in the Western world resurrected these ghosts and told us that the Russkies were bombing the brave “moderates” fighting Bashar’s army in Syria – the very “moderates” who, according to the same storyline from the very same sources a few weeks earlier, no longer existed. Our finest commentators and experts – always a dodgy phrase – joined in the same chorus line.

So now a few harsh factoids. The Syrian army are drawing up the operational target lists for the Russian air force. But Vladimir Putin has his own enemies in Syria.

The first strikes – far from being aimed at the “moderates” whom the US had long ago dismissed – were directed at the large number of Turkmen villages in the far north-west of Syria which have for many months been occupied by hundreds of Chechen fighters – the very same Chechens whom Putin had been trying to liquidate in Chechnya itself. These Chechen forces assaulted and destroyed Syria’s strategic hilltop military Position 451 north of Latakia last year. No wonder Bashar’s army put them on the target list.

Other strikes were directed not at Isis but at Islamist Jaish al-Shams force targets in the same area. But in the first 24 hours, Russian bombs were also dropped on the Isis supply line through the mountains above Palmyra.

The Russians specifically attacked desert roads around the town of Salamia – the same tracks used by Isis suicide convoys to defeat Syrian troops in the ancient Roman city of Palmyra last May.

They also bombed areas around Hassakeh and the Isis-held Raqqa air base where Syrian troops have fought Islamists over the past year (and were beheaded when they surrendered).

Russian ground troops, however, are in Syria only to guard their bases. These are symbolic boots on the ground – but the idea that those boots are there to fight Isis is a lie. The Russians intend to let the Syrian ground troops do the dying for them.

No, there are no good guys and bad guys in the Syrian war. The Russians don’t care about the innocents they kill any more than do the Syrian army or Nato. Any movie of the Syrian war should be entitled War Criminals Galore!

But for heaven’s sake, let’s stop fantasising. A few days ago, a White House spokesman even told us that Russian bombing “drives moderate elements… into the hands of extremists”.

Who’s writing this fiction? “Moderate elements” indeed…"

--------------------------------------------------------------------

....about the only good thing that may come of this is that the current regimes in Turkey and Saudi Arabia may go down in flames.....and please lets not consider the worst because it could well make the coming climate change disaster a walk in the park....

Cheers
 
Aug 5, 2009
15,733
8,153
28,180
No point trying to make sense of the Middle East. Chaos does not even approach being the right word. ! As for Russia, any opportunity Putin sees to get up the nose of the USA he will take it. No doubt the incursions into Turkey are also meant to stir up Turkey and NATO and I am sure they are deliberate. Putin has been making sure his defence forces continue to flex their muscles all over the globe actively or just on show.. Strutting on the global stage but getting involved in Syria could be a lot worse for him than what happened in Ukraine especially if terrorist groups decide to target Russia which is possible. Greece and the EU just see the continual arrival of boats. I never thought the Syrian conflict would have gone as far as it has but then no one counted on the arrival of ISIS on the scene and how much impact they would have.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Re:

movingtarget said:
No point trying to make sense of the Middle East. Chaos does not even approach being the right word. ! As for Russia, any opportunity Putin sees to get up the nose of the USA he will take it. No doubt the incursions into Turkey are also meant to stir up Turkey and NATO and I am sure they are deliberate. Putin has been making sure his defence forces continue to flex their muscles all over the globe actively or just on show.. Strutting on the global stage but getting involved in Syria could be a lot worse for him than what happened in Ukraine especially if terrorist groups decide to target Russia which is possible. Greece and the EU just see the continual arrival of boats. I never thought the Syrian conflict would have gone as far as it has but then no one counted on the arrival of ISIS on the scene and how much impact they would have.

....a good starting point in trying to decipher any foreign policy corundum is following the money....though in the Middle East its follow the oil, the gas, or in the case of Syria the route of the proposed pipeline that would bring Qatari gas to Europe....Assad turned down that pipeline and agreed to a Russian one instead and presto zesto became public enemy number one ( not unlike the pipeline politics in Afghanistan prior to its post 9/11 invasion )....

....curious, would be interesting to see the other opportunities as in "any opportunity Putin sees to get up the nose of the USA he will take it" ....

....as for terrorist groups deciding to target Russia, that horse has long ago left the barn...in fact a big part of the incursions into Syria is to prevent any further actions in that regard...

...and no one foresaw the arrival of radical jihadi elements?....that was constant fear from the very start of this conflict and was screamed from the proverbial rooftops by several commentators ( though admittedly not by the MSM which predicted a campaign that would be over in weeks and the victors greeted by cheers and flowers...ooops, sorry, wrong war....but you get the point...)....

Cheers
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
the 2 violations of the turkish airspace likely achieved their design... :cool:
(sorry bustedknuckles i hear your military expertise but doubt vlad needed to cross his eagles into turkey to tune his gear)

specifically, as of this morning the turkish and russian military engaged in intense talks to coordinate their efforts.

here's a quote from the turkish prime-minister this morning:
We don’t have any conflict of interests with Russia over Syria, but Russia must take into consideration our concern over the situation. We are friends and neighbors with Russia, but Turkey cannot ignore security issues of our borders," Davutoglu told journalists, adding that the Syrian civil war will not become a Russian-Turkish crisis.

anyone remembers tomahawk cruise missiles in iraq ? in a very significant military development, for the first time ever 'in anger' russia today launched about a dozen cruise missiles into syrian targets from as far away as 1000 mi (4 ships stationed in the Caspian)

the significance of the launch as i see it is this:
1. it is a further show of force designed for the us rather than the rebels to answer virtually a unanimous chorus
of the nato general that russia is 25 years behind the west in applying precision weapons. 'they are using dumb and barrel bombs in syria of ww2 vintage and that's why they slaughter civilians)
2. to reach their targets, the missiles had to fly over iran and iraq. means, not only they did not worry about an accidental hit on their territory, they are fully connected their efforts.

sorry i can't give a link yet -none yet found - as this was an email from a well informed friend in the m. east.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
....first Israel and now Turkey making arrangements to accommodate the new neighbour ....now that is something that doesn't quite play into the story that "the West" has been pedaling ( though admittedly that story has gone thru so many major edits its hard to figure which way is up....that being said the only consistent theme has always been that Vlad is evil incarnate yet these two, errr, trusted allies are now playing nice with Mr Evil... )....

....be very interesting how this plays out....

Cheers
 
Jul 24, 2011
2,053
12
11,510
Re: Re:

blutto said:
movingtarget said:
No point trying to make sense of the Middle East. Chaos does not even approach being the right word. ! As for Russia, any opportunity Putin sees to get up the nose of the USA he will take it. No doubt the incursions into Turkey are also meant to stir up Turkey and NATO and I am sure they are deliberate. Putin has been making sure his defence forces continue to flex their muscles all over the globe actively or just on show.. Strutting on the global stage but getting involved in Syria could be a lot worse for him than what happened in Ukraine especially if terrorist groups decide to target Russia which is possible. Greece and the EU just see the continual arrival of boats. I never thought the Syrian conflict would have gone as far as it has but then no one counted on the arrival of ISIS on the scene and how much impact they would have.

....a good starting point in trying to decipher any foreign policy corundum is to following the money....though in the Middle East its follow the oil, the gas, or in the case of Syria the route of the proposed pipeline that would bring Qatari gas to Europe....Assad turned down that pipeline and agreed to a Russian one instead and presto zesto became public enemy number one ( not unlike the pipeline politics in Afghanistan prior to its post 9/11 invasion )....

....curious, would be interesting to see the other opportunities as in "any opportunity Putin sees to get up the nose of the USA he will take it" ....

....as for terrorist groups deciding to target Russia, that horse has long ago left the barn...in fact a big part of the incursions into Syria is to prevent any further actions in that regard...

...and no one foresaw the arrival of radical jihadi elements?....that was constant fear from the very start of this conflict and was screamed from the proverbial rooftops by several commentators ( though admittedly not by the MSM which predicted a campaign that would be over in weeks and the victors greeted by cheers and flowers...ooops, sorry, wrong war....but you get the point...)....

Cheers

It's also why they got involved in Georgia in 2008. Proposed pipeline from Baku through Georgia and Turkey to Europe.
 
Aug 5, 2009
15,733
8,153
28,180
Re:

blutto said:
....first Israel and now Turkey making arrangements to accommodate the new neighbour ....now that is something that doesn't quite play into the story that "the West" has been pedaling ( though admittedly that story has gone thru so many major edits its hard to figure which way is up....that being said the only consistent theme has always been that Vlad is evil incarnate yet these two, errr, trusted allies are now playing nice with Mr Evil... )....

....be very interesting how this plays out....

Cheers

It seems the current Turkish PM is not exactly winning over the Kurds living in Turkey. Many of the moderate Kurds supported him in the last election but it looks like a big backlash is on the way at the next election. Yes it's true he does not have the Putin like popularity ratings ! And now we have the bizarre situation of Russia and the USA bombing different armies in the same country ! And Turkey was bombing the Kurds and IS although not the Kurds that were fighting IS ! All it needs is Israel to get involved now ! Do people really think that the best and only solution is a political one ? That is not even on the horizon at the moment. The same was said about Afghanistan. How they had to negotiate with the Taliban as the best outcome. Now the Taliban are on the move again. Too many people must now regret 9/11 and the Arab Spring and the consequences arising from both events. Hopefully the whole Iraq, Afghanistan,Syria conflict will be a learning experience for the USA. I suppose the Ukrainians can count their blessings that the USA stayed out of their conflict, at least the war part of it. There is no doubt that it could have been much worse for Ukraine if the USA had taken a more active role.
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
...i found the following analysis of the current mess in syria very interesting and insightful. some of the observations seemed downright surprising, like this i saw nowhere else
Russia has new allies in Iraq, UAE, Jordan, Egypt and Israel

hmm. israel is now an ally and jordan with the united arab emirates has not been on anyone's radar.

if you can suffer through a longish explanation of the background of why vlad plunged into syria, which is very informative and narrows down to his perception of medvedev's blunders in lybia, the author explains how and why vlad made these new allies. also, the author imo soundly lays out the undercurrents that can scuttle vlad's grand design altogether.

about the site and the author. i came across them only recently. i bookmarked them b/c the coverage seemed fairly evenhanded, informative w/o any obvious political tilt, except perhaps a slight concern for israel.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/russia-s-holy-war-syria-2076967171
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
....hot on the heels of that exceptional surgical strike in Afghanistan the exceptional allies of democracy and freedom are getting more PR for their efforts to follow the exceptional path....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Amnesty International Says The U.S.-Supported Coalition In Yemen Is Committing War Crimes

12 hrs ago - 'BOMBS FALL FROM THE SKY DAY AND NIGHT': CIVILIANS UNDER FIRE IN NORTHERN YEMEN A devastating air bombardment campaign launched in March 2015 by a coalition led by Saudi Arabia has killed and injured hundreds of civilians in Yemen, many of them chil ... (Amnesty International/Think Progress"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and this from an organization that has recently come under heavy fire for leaning pro-Israeli in recent times....seems Bibi and Vlad may have had a very productive chat....

Cheers
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Re:

Brullnux said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34460325

I'd quite like to hear a wider view, not just my view on this. Anyone feedback from someone who lives in Japan would be great.

Personally I think this is just plainly unacceptable.

...definitely unacceptable on so many levels....

Cheers
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
....Pepe does a Rude One's polite cousin thang...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NATO-Russia Face Off In Syria
By Pepe Escobar

October 07, 2015 "Information Clearing House" - "RT" - So a Su-30 enters a few hundred meters into Turkish airspace for only two minutes over Hatay province, and returns to Syrian airspace after being warned by a couple of Turkish F-16s.

Then all hell breaks loose as if this was the ultimate pretext for a NATO-Russia war.

NATO, predictably, went out all rhetorical guns blazing. Russia is causing “extreme danger” and should immediately stop bombing those cute “moderate rebels” the coalition of the dodgy opportunists refuses to bomb.

But wait; NATO is actually too busy to go to war. The priority, until at least November, is the epic Trident Juncture 2015; 36,000 troops from 30 states, more than 60 warships, around 200 aircraft, all are seriously practicing how to defend from the proverbial “The Russians are Coming!”

Still, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu – he of the former “zero problems with our neighbors” doctrine - actually “warned” Moscow that next time Ankara would respond “militarily”.

Until, of course, he backed down; “What we have received from Russia …is that this was a mistake and that they respect Turkey's borders and this will not happen again.”

The incident could have been easily defused – via military to military communication - without the posturing.

But Ankara – NATO’s eastern flank – is under immense pressure from ‘Exceptionalistan’. It’s no accident Pentagon supremo and notorious neocon Ash Carter “conferred” with Ankara about the incident. Carter of course is the most stellar practitioner of the official Beltway diktat; “By taking military action in Syria against moderate groups’ targets, Russia has escalated the civil war.”

Sultan’ Erdogan, right on cue, and straight from Strasbourg (no, he was not campaigning for the European Parliament) doubled down: “Assad has committed state terrorism, and unfortunately you find Russia and Iran defending (him).”

And yet ‘Sultan’ Erdogan won’t go down in history as the catalyst for the much-awaited NATO-Russia Hot War 2.0. At least not yet.

Only bomb if we say so

Enter Dr. Zbigniew “Grand Chessboard” Brzezinski, growling in a FT Op-Ed that Washington should “retaliate” if Moscow does not stop attacking US assets in Syria. “US assets” means CIA-trained “moderate rebels”. And after all, “American credibility” is at stake.

Dr. Zbig – Obama’s prime foreign policy mentor – insists bombing CIA-trained “rebels” accounts for “Russian military incompetence”. And the American counter-attack should be to “disarm” the “Russian naval and air presence.” Now that’s how you go for a NATO-Russia Hot War 2.0.

Dr. Zbig admitted though that “regional chaos could easily spread northeastward,” and then “both Russia and then China could be adversely affected.” Who cares? What matters is that “American interests and America’s friends…would also suffer.”

This is what passes for prime geopolitical analysis in the ‘Empire of Chaos’.

‘Sultan’ Erdogan, for his part, remains restless. Moscow has already evaporated his so cherished three-year-old dream of a no-fly zone over northern Syria. There is an actual no-fly zone all over Syria now in effect. But it’s managed by Russia.

And that explains why there’s already full spectrum hysteria for more US Congress sanctions on Russia. How can a no-fly zone be imposed over Syria when Russia got there first?

And it was all going so swimmingly for the ‘Sultan’. Ankara – at the insistence of Washington – had finally thrown open its air bases to fight ISIS/ISIL/Daesh, but as long as this was part of a regime change operation in Damascus. And for that, Ankara would get its no-fly zone.

Enter ‘The Sultan’s’ recurrent nightmare; the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) and its sister organization, the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).

‘The Sultan’ simply cannot accept the PYD advancing to the western bank of the Euphrates to help in the fight against ISIS/ISIL/Daesh. ‘The Sultan’ wants to “contain” the PYD in Kobani.

The problem is the PYD – supported by the PKK – is the only reliable ‘Empire of Chaos’ ally in Syria. Yet ‘the Sultan’ could not help himself; he got into a war – again – against the PKK. Washington was not exactly amused.

And then there’s the key corridor from the Bab al-Salam border crossing down to Aleppo - controlled by Ankara-supported goon squads. That’s Ankara’s bridge to Aleppo; without it, not the slightest chance of regime change, ever. The fake “Caliphate” was threatening to take over the corridor. So action was imperative.

Russia’s spectacular entry into the war theatre threw all these elaborate plans into disarray. Imagine a complete liberation of northeast Syria as soon as the PYD – with help from PKK fighters - is weaponized enough to smash the ISIS/ISIL/Daesh goons. And imagine the Russian Air Force providing air cover for such an operation, with extra coordination by the Russia-Syria-Iraq-Iran central in Baghdad.

‘The Sultan’, in desperation, would have to maneuver his F-16s against such an offensive. And then we might really have a NATO-Russia five seconds to midnight scenario – with terrifying consequences. ‘The Sultan’ would blink first. And NATO would collapse into the ignominy it never left – back to its elaborate “Russia is invading” drills.



#SYRIA: #Su30SM fighter's short entry in the Turkish airspace caused by Hmeymim airbase location & weather conditions pic.twitter.com/0a8e74sEBe
— Минобороны России (@mod_russia) October 5, 2015
Say hello to my geopolitical jihadi tool

Next steps for the Russian campaign would be to pay close attention to the road linking ISIS/ISIL/Daesh’s capital, Al-Raqqah, around which jihadis are fighting for the control of oil and gas in Sha’ir and Jazal. And then there are pockets east of both Homs and Hama, and in al-Qaryatayn. Moscow – slowly, surely, methodically - is getting there.

What the Russian air campaign has already graphically exposed is the whole rotten core myth of the new Jihad International.

ISIS/ISIL/Daesh, Jabhat al-Nusra and assorted Salafi-jihadi goon squads have been kept up and running by a massive financial/logistical/weaponizing “effort” – which includes all sorts of key nodes, from arms factories in Bulgaria and Croatia to transportation routes via Turkey and Jordan.

As for those Syrian “moderate rebels” – and most of them are not even Syrian, they’re mercenaries – every pebble in the ravaged Sykes-Picot desert sands knows they were trained by the CIA in Jordan. The desert pebbles are also aware that ISIS/ISIL/Daesh goons have been infiltrated into Syria from Turkey – once again, across Hatay province; and vast swathes of ‘the Sultan’s’ Army and police were into the game.

As for who pays the bills for the lavish weaponizing, talk to the proverbial “pious wealthy donors” – incited by their clerics - in the GCC, the petrodollar arm of NATO. None of these goon squads could possibly thrive for so long without full, multidisciplinary “support” from the usual suspects.

So the hysterical/apoplectic/paroxystic rage enveloping the ‘Empire of Chaos’ betrays the utter failure, once again, of the same old “policy” (remember Afghanistan) of using jihadis as geopolitical tools. Fake “Caliphate” or “rebels”, they are all NATO-GCC’s bitches.

To add insult to injury, a frustrated ‘Sultan’ has also been forced to annex himself to a slightly changing Washington position – which now rules that “Assad must go,” yes, but it may take some time, as part of a yet to be defined “transition”.

‘The Sultan’ will remain a pile of nerves. He does not give a damn about ISIS/ISIL/Daesh. Washington now does – sort of. He wants to smash the PYD and the PKK. For Washington, the PYD is a helpful ally. As for Moscow, ‘the Sultan’ better watch his neo-Ottoman step.

‘The Sultan’ simply cannot afford to antagonize ‘The Bear’. Gazprom will expand the Blue Stream pipeline into Turkey. It would be by 3 billion cubic meters; instead it will be by 1 billion cubic meters. According to Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak, it’s due to technical capabilities.

Yet Ankara better get its act together, because even that extension may evaporate if there’s no agreement on the commercial terms of TurkStream, the former Turkish Stream. Ankara is under tremendous pressure from the Obama administration. And ‘the Sultan’ knows very well that without Russia all his elaborate plans to position Turkey as the key energy transit hub from East to West will vanish in Anatolian scrub. In the end, he may even get regime-changed himself."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
....and this little bit of info from a slip by the exceptional chess player....

"Brzezinski advised President Barack Obama to attempt to disarm the Russians if they keep attacking the CIA-trained militants in Syria.

"The Russian naval and air presences in Syria are vulnerable, isolated geographically from their homeland," Brzezinski wrote on Sunday. "They could be 'disarmed' if they persist in provoking the US."

Dr. Barrett said that it is “a stunning admission from a senior high-level policy adviser here in the US that the US in fact using al-Qaeda, or perhaps the Islamic State [the Daesh/ISIL terrorist group] as well, as assets.”

.....and...

"Commenting to Press TV, Dr. Barrett said that “the American people will be very interested to hear that just 14 years after the attacks of September 11th, 2001, which were officially blamed on al-Qaeda - which even then was called by some people al-CIA-duh, having had relationships with the US in the Afghan jihad against the Soviet Union - that this supposedly demonized enemy group that we were told was responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on September 11th, 2001 is now our ally in Syria, and we should to go war with Russia and risk a nuclear war that could end life on the planet in order to punish Russia for fighting against al-Qaeda.”

“It’s kind of mind-boggling that anyone could even imagine the US retaliating against Russia for Russia’s attacks on al-Qaeda, but that’s precisely what Brzezinski said,” he stated.

“And Brzezinski, for better of course, is actually considered one of the more sensible and level-headed people in Washington, DC which tells you something about other people around him, the neoconservatives who are much crazier than even he is,” said Dr. Barrett, the author of Questioning the War on Terror."

....from... http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/10/06/432288/US-Syria-assets-

Cheers
 
Status
Not open for further replies.