World Politics

[movingtarget]

Re:

Didn't see this posted here? Latest reports are that British and U.S. intelligence think it's likely that a bomb brought down the plane near Sharm El-Sheikh. Not confirmed, but I assume they wouldn't announce this unless they thought the evidence was pretty strong. Either that, or they want to marshall public opinion against ISIL even more than it already is.

Should be easy to confirm whether it was a bomb. Chemical residue would be all over the wreckage. i actually thought it must have been mechanical due to the poor maintenance and safety records for Russian planes plus it was an old plane and the pilot that flew that plane on it's previous trip reported mechanical issues. But it seems the Americans have picked up something on their satellites which resembles a bomb blast and is more believable than ISIS shooting it down. Payback to Russia from ISIS was sure to happen sooner rather than later. British tourists have been told to avoid the area as have their airlines. As you say, Egyptian airport security is supposed to be abysmal. Not exactly great news for an already struggling Egyptian tourism industry.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Didn't see this posted here? Latest reports are that British and U.S. intelligence think it's likely that a bomb brought down the plane near Sharm El-Sheikh. Not confirmed, but I assume they wouldn't announce this unless they thought the evidence was pretty strong. Either that, or they want to marshall public opinion against ISIL even more than it already is.

Should be easy to confirm whether it was a bomb. Chemical residue would be all over the wreckage. i actually thought it must have been mechanical due to the poor maintenance and safety records for Russian planes plus it was an old plane and the pilot that flew that plane on it's previous trip reported mechanical issues. But it seems the Americans have picked up something on their satellites which resembles a bomb blast and is more believable than ISIS shooting it down. Payback to Russia from ISIS was sure to happen sooner rather than later. British tourists have been told to avoid the area as have their airlines. As you say, Egyptian airport security is supposed to be abysmal. Not exactly great news for an already struggling Egyptian tourism industry.

....that something has also been attributed to the heat produced by just the break-up of the plane....and some reports have stated no bomb chemical residue was found on the main bits of the debris ( which oddly enough seemed to prompt an "ISIS communique" that had the bomb being put in an engine ....or somewhere away from the plane body...was a strange message with some comment along the lines of we'll tell our secret when you are good and ready but in the meantime just sit back and believe we did this...)

....funny how American satellites and snoopings are working just ticketty-boo here and are being used to backstop stories in the case of this air disaster but in the case of MH17 not so much....

...given the number of stories from un-named Western sources that aren't part of the official investigation that have been floated can't help but wonder what all this flotsam from what seems like an especially vigorous spin cycle is trying to hide/misdirect to or from....

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Didn't see this posted here? Latest reports are that British and U.S. intelligence think it's likely that a bomb brought down the plane near Sharm El-Sheikh. Not confirmed, but I assume they wouldn't announce this unless they thought the evidence was pretty strong. Either that, or they want to marshall public opinion against ISIL even more than it already is.

if it is something ON THE PLANE that has brought it down, my intuition is correct, it is a US dirty trickx, black-ops.

they wont leave enough evidence to trace it back to a particular action by CIA... there will be multiple barriers and levels and chinese walls for the plausible deniability

Right on man puff pass it around. That is the way it is with all these things - those CIA and special opps guys from the USA.

Just the other day I saw where they are putting small tracking devices on all the used and new automobiles coming out of Japan being shipped to various countries in the southern hemisphere to track how stupid the drivers are and all. They will then use that information to plant bombs on all the smart ones cars to blow them up - thus making the Merikans the smartest ones left on the planet.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

[

What would you prefer, precision by the US and some by the Russians(their ROE are 'suspect, bunch of cowboys in their first air campaign) or a cell of B-52s, doing an arc light mission.

You Euros are an interesting bunch, sitting in your safe haven(for now) sipping a latte' while others do the heavy lifting for you. OBTW-ISIL is a lot closer to Europe than the US.

i'd prefer the cocky americans not to do the 'heavy lifting' for anyone, including 'us euros'. almost 2 decades of non-stop invasions and wars, including in blatant disregard of international law, the opinions of many europeans and plain common sense is not 'heavy lifting. it is arrogant, often unilateral foreign policy...perhaps then, there would no need for a false pretending doing the 'heavy lifting'.

Most americans feel the same way. I am sure, if the US left, the 'European Union' would take care of this, as ISIL marched to the west. I am sure, the European Union would be happy to confront Putin as he also, marches to the west. Right? Or, maybe not.

BUT if the US did leave, what crisis would happen before the EU actually came to the party?[/quote]

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....as we all know blutto is more than a bit dim.....so could you please explain why exactly the EU should confront Putin....

Cheers[/quote]

Err because he wants to annex large parts of Eastern Europe, former parts of the USSR, the operative word being 'Europe'...[/quote]

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....and which large parts would those be exactly....

Cheers[/quote]

I know you can call up a map..Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine.[/quote]

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....maybe we have a slightly different understanding of the meaning of the word large because neither Moldava nor Estonia could be normally considered large parts of Eastern Europe....and frankly don't represent huge strategic or economic advantage...

.....Ukraine on the other hand is indeed large but Russia has already made its bid to keep it somewhat economically healthy within its economic orbit but that was rejected by the glorious revolution which favoured annexation by the Exceptionalistan/IMF/World Bank cabal....gonna be interesting what there actually is going to be left for Russia to annex after the glorious revolution and its corrupt oligarchic sponsors reduce it to a puddle of economic sludge ( read, given its downward accelerating economic trajectory who is going to throw enough money at this mess to save it except maybe to cherry pick its considerable assets at fire-sale prices and throttle it with a Greek style loan millstone necklace ...the EU?....Exceptionalistan, fresh from its hugely successful nation re-building in Iraq and Afghanistan ?...)...

....one line of thought is that after the West totally messes up The Ukraine there will in fact be a revolution by saner elements of Ukrainian society and they will go back to having reasonable relations with Russia (and the EU )...and Exceptionalistan and its nazi friends will be told to take a hike because their attempt at annexation was another in a long line of tragic busts...

Cheers

 

[python]

Re: Re:

[quote="]


....funny how American satellites and snoopings are working just ticketty-boo here and are being used to backstop stories in the case of this air disaster but in the case of MH17 not so much....

...given the number of stories from un-named Western sources that aren't part of the official investigation that have been floated can't help but wonder what all this flotsam from what seems like an especially vigorous spin cycle is trying to hide/misdirect to or from....

Cheers

i wanted to post something along the same lines, but you beat me to it...indeed, the bomb aboard the plane was always a plausible speculation along with other speculations, BUT how, and, more significantly, WHY the infamous anonymous sources had started to favour - pls note simultaneously in the uk and america - the bomb blast story i found not one bit of evidence the 'sources' said their conclusions would be based on, yet, the rush to condition the public opinion BEFORE the investigation even had a chance to read the 'black boxes' appears, as you put it, a spin cycle aiming to misdirect...why ?

hiding its own involvement, as blackcat suggested, could be one reason. personally, i would not favour the version until more evidence emerged. seems too irrational and may even lead to a symmetrical response with many more american bodies falling out of the sky...

another suggestion made by m. index was to boost the isil scare...quite possible, but isn't the public ALREADY conditioned enough ?

yet another could be to suck russia into a knee jerk reaction in syria which would facilitate a scenario of them getting deeper and deeper in the morass of syria ('afghanistation') ?

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

[quote="]


....funny how American satellites and snoopings are working just ticketty-boo here and are being used to backstop stories in the case of this air disaster but in the case of MH17 not so much....

...given the number of stories from un-named Western sources that aren't part of the official investigation that have been floated can't help but wonder what all this flotsam from what seems like an especially vigorous spin cycle is trying to hide/misdirect to or from....

Cheers

i wanted to post something along the same lines, but you beat me to it...indeed, the bomb aboard the plane was always a plausible speculation along with other speculations, BUT how, and, more significantly, WHY the infamous anonymous sources had started to favour - pls note simultaneously in the uk and america - the bomb blast story i found not one bit of evidence the 'sources' said their conclusions would be based on, yet, the rush to condition the public opinion BEFORE the investigation even had a chance to read the 'black boxes' appears, as you put it, a spin cycle aiming to misdirect...why ?

hiding its own involvement, as blackcat suggested, could be one reason. personally, i would not favour the version until more evidence emerged. seems too irrational and may even lead to a symmetrical response with many more american bodies falling out of the sky...

another suggestion made by m. index was to boost the isil scare...quite possible, but isn't the public ALREADY conditioned enough ?

yet another could be to suck russia into a knee jerk reaction in syria which would facilitate a scenario of them getting deeper and deeper in the morass of syria ('afghanistation') ?

....well, maybe because no matter how much you wash and spin dry the dirty laundry the story that is most prominent is that a US proxy ( though admittedly with several built in layers of plausible deniability ), ISIS, has blown a civilian plane full of tourists out of the air....which, if you are trying to sell yourself as the only legitimate wearer of white hats in the entire world, don't look so good eh ?....

....though on the other hand this may be the best story they have to cover up something even worse because as recent history has amply shown the forces of goodness and apple pie ( and the friends they seem to prefer to sleep with...) are capable of feats of absolutely monumental stupendous stupidity ( and evil )...

...and yeah the simultaneously thing was a wee bit weird weren't it....

Cheers

 

[hrotha]

Ah yes, the US proxy that has done little but further Iran's interests in the region. Got it.

 

[blutto]

Re:

Ah yes, the US proxy that has done little but further Iran's interests in the region. Got it.

....though admittedly not thru lack of trying...

...the other way of looking at the situation is that this is just another in a long line of classic text book foreign policy "success" stories that the forces of goodness and apple pie seem to specialize in....as in gee lets go and totally f%@k up something else...if it weren't for the fact that millions of people have died as a direct results of these "success" stories this would a comedy gold mine of epic proportions....what a group of pompous arrogant and incompetent dolts...

Cheers

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

Ah yes, the US proxy that has done little but further Iran's interests in the region. Got it.

I'm not even sure why ISIL would bother trying to take credit for this since all along it has been the CIA who planted the bomb on the plane. Puzzled.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Ah yes, the US proxy that has done little but further Iran's interests in the region. Got it.

I'm not even sure why ISIL would bother trying to take credit for this since all along it has been the CIA who planted the bomb on the plane. Puzzled.

....the CIA, nahhh, they would have bombed the wrong plane....has to be Mossad because they're really good and stealthy and intellectually superior and everything ( like nobody knows they did 9/11 to this day eh )....that being said I'm still holding out for the real long shot, the drone/plane collision, if only for the high irony factor....

Cheers

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Ah yes, the US proxy that has done little but further Iran's interests in the region. Got it.

I'm not even sure why ISIL would bother trying to take credit for this since all along it has been the CIA who planted the bomb on the plane. Puzzled.

....the CIA, nahhh, they would have bombed the wrong plane....has to be Mossad because they're really good and stealthy and intellectually superior and everything ( like nobody knows they did 9/11 to this day eh )....that being said I'm still holding out for the real long shot, the drone/plane collision, if only for the high irony factor....

Cheers

Aye, if in doubt always stick with the old tradition of blaming the joos

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Ah yes, the US proxy that has done little but further Iran's interests in the region. Got it.

I'm not even sure why ISIL would bother trying to take credit for this since all along it has been the CIA who planted the bomb on the plane. Puzzled.

....the CIA, nahhh, they would have bombed the wrong plane....has to be Mossad because they're really good and stealthy and intellectually superior and everything ( like nobody knows they did 9/11 to this day eh )....that being said I'm still holding out for the real long shot, the drone/plane collision, if only for the high irony factor....

Cheers

Aye, if in doubt always stick with the old tradition of blaming the joos

Pretty much what will happen around here.

 

[Echoes]

Lol Blutto is an anti-Semite now. He defended Israel against me. The poster above knows it.

Anti-Semitism has external factors but also internal ones, argued Bernard Lazare. You can see why here. You can't question Israel's policy because there's been the Holocaust ...

Ever seen Nat Portman's recent comments: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/natalie-portman-holocaust-interview_55de2340e4b0a40aa3ad4ce2

 

[hrotha]

That there is plenty of legitimate criticism of Israel doesn't mean that no critics of Israel are anti-Semitic.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

[quote="]


....funny how American satellites and snoopings are working just ticketty-boo here and are being used to backstop stories in the case of this air disaster but in the case of MH17 not so much....

...given the number of stories from un-named Western sources that aren't part of the official investigation that have been floated can't help but wonder what all this flotsam from what seems like an especially vigorous spin cycle is trying to hide/misdirect to or from....

Cheers

i wanted to post something along the same lines, but you beat me to it...indeed, the bomb aboard the plane was always a plausible speculation along with other speculations, BUT how, and, more significantly, WHY the infamous anonymous sources had started to favour - pls note simultaneously in the uk and america - the bomb blast story i found not one bit of evidence the 'sources' said their conclusions would be based on, yet, the rush to condition the public opinion BEFORE the investigation even had a chance to read the 'black boxes' appears, as you put it, a spin cycle aiming to misdirect...why ?

hiding its own involvement, as blackcat suggested, could be one reason. personally, i would not favour the version until more evidence emerged. seems too irrational and may even lead to a symmetrical response with many more american bodies falling out of the sky...

another suggestion made by m. index was to boost the isil scare...quite possible, but isn't the public ALREADY conditioned enough ?

yet another could be to suck russia into a knee jerk reaction in syria which would facilitate a scenario of them getting deeper and deeper in the morass of syria ('afghanistation') ?

thing is, we cannot possibly know either way. But this is a pretty good case and manifestation of the media influence and how when washington seeks to proffer its own line, that its own line becomes an immediate consensus opinion. it is what chomsky obviously riffed on in manufacturing consent, and also freud and bernays had a half century and a century prior.

i) i stress, to assume it is dirty tricks would be stupid.
however, when you do some analysis and a statistical regression of aircraft accidents, even with a plane that may have been through half a dozen corporate owners, and with lax aircraft servicing p'raps, p'raps, and maybe doubtful origins of replacement parts... even taking this all into account, it becomes extremely coincidental, that it goes down over Egypt when Washington v Russia and Iran are still conducting proxy turf wars across the ME.

as I said, you can construct a conspiracy about anything, and quite a convincing conspiracy. And I am not asserting this would go far above the operation level if it ever existed. The chances still lie, on it just being a terrible disaster for the passengers and employees.

@Blutto Phillip Giraldi the ex CIA guy I often link to, he reckons that the NSA or CIA would know on quite a level of confidence, what happened to MH17, their satellites and the SigInt intelligence(tautology) are too comprehensive in scale not to pretty sure what went down.

Even if this is on the lower level, and Obama is still told a massaged version, and aversion the CIA and/or NSA wishes you to hear, (wishes POTUS to hear this is), because it suits the NSA/orCIA's narrative and motives...

@python that is the worry, the symmetrical response, a mission creep or slippery slope... this could build beyond the spooks doing their own thing level

second question for @python , the final scenario you proffer re: Syria? the "who benefits?" question, this assumes that Assad and Syria could draw Russia deeper into the conflict in Syria, but this would need Russia to think that ISIS or the yanks had brought down the plane. The Russians will be searching for their own evidence and explanation,

also, I wish to re-iterate, I did not think there would be evidence if a sophisticated dirty tricks operation did it. no missiles. I never implied this. But what is the sophisticated dirty tricks wanted to leave a false flag pointing to a different actor as the responsible mission. Like you might intimitate, with Assad and Syria, wishing to draw the Russians deeper down the rabbit hole.

you cannot control how this plays out, flashpoints can easily become a WWI murder of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. The West has largely been much insulated from this in the past half a century, and now only recently we have the jihadis taking up arms against their domestic brethren (well, we had IRA, and Red Army Faction, and Bahder Meinhoff, were they the same, which was the Italian? not the German writing BM obviously)

 

[blackcat]

folks, spooks = spies.

profumo d'affaire, all that jazz

 

[blackcat]

plenty of criticism of america, and the UK, and Australia, and Glenn, sometimes they all deserve it. You dont have to have read A People's History of the United States to know that.

And I already proffered the Canadian-American Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker's thesis as the caveat/devil's advocate http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html
The World Is Not Falling Apart
Never mind the headlines. We’ve never lived in such peaceful times.


edit: I had to add "dont" in the sentence below (which is above) to convey the correct rhetoric

You dont have to have read A People's History of the United States to know that.

 

[blackcat]

Anti-Semitism has external factors but also internal ones, argued Bernard Lazare. You can see why here. You can't question Israel's policy because there's been the Holocaust ...

Sarah Roy at Harvard mimicks tha, Shoah has no text on the ME, and is mutually exclusive. Its a bit like the Godwin law thingie

 

[blackcat]

how are ISIS/IS/da'esh a US proxy. Yes there is a wealth of conspiracy stuff out there I can reference, but the US does not need them really, this Wahabbism, Sunni strain is mostly a product of the house of saud and the emirati. they wish to get rid of shia islam before anything esle, but as a poster said above, they are doing Iran's job for them. Well in that case, So did GW Bush and Cheney, did not someone post a link from the WSJ and a Brent Scowcroft op-ed around 2002 when the drums for war were beating... And BC is saying dont go there. Well, General Wesley Clark said on the days after 9/11, he walks into a staffers office at the Pentagon and the staffer said that the Whitehouse were putting their longgame regime change plans into operation then. first Iraq, then Syria, then Lebanon, Libya, and finally Iraq should be for the taking.
#MaslowsHammer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

....that being said I'm still holding out for the real long shot, the drone/plane collision, if only for the high irony factor....

Cheers

no one is gunna know, because we cant trust the governments not to spin us. who will know then besides the actor(s), if indeed there were actors? Well, if anyone will have some pretty good idea, it has to be NSA and the sigint bureaus of the CIA. Even those guys, it will just be a informed guess. Will the blackboxes solve it for python and the russians? well, it will solve it for multiple eventuations and options, but not really stealthy operations that sought to down the plane sans evidence and with plausible deniability.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Err because he wants to annex large parts of Eastern Europe, former parts of the USSR, the operative word being 'Europe'...

not sure crimea and sebastapol nice summer destination as it may be, and ossetia/southossetia are large parts of eastern europe.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

[War as a presidential communication tool, that is the world we are living in.

and have always lived in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides
Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. - Thucydides Melian dialogue of the Peloponnesian Wars

 

[blackcat]

Re:

I assume they wouldn't announce this unless they thought the evidence was pretty strong.

your assumption would be a tad naive. governments lie

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Hope you are kidding..gonna be interesting as Russia starts a 'scorched earth' policy towards ISIL. Wonder when Russia boots on the ground.

nah, Assad and the Russians have their eyes on the rebels, not da'esh.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

[

What would you prefer, precision by the US and some by the Russians(their ROE are 'suspect, bunch of cowboys in their first air campaign) or a cell of B-52s, doing an arc light mission.

You Euros are an interesting bunch, sitting in your safe haven(for now) sipping a latte' while others do the heavy lifting for you. OBTW-ISIL is a lot closer to Europe than the US.

i'd prefer the cocky americans not to do the 'heavy lifting' for anyone, including 'us euros'. almost 2 decades of non-stop invasions and wars, including in blatant disregard of international law, the opinions of many europeans and plain common sense is not 'heavy lifting. it is arrogant, often unilateral foreign policy...perhaps then, there would no need for a false pretending doing the 'heavy lifting'.

Most americans feel the same way. I am sure, if the US left, the 'European Union' would take care of this, as ISIL marched to the west. I am sure, the European Union would be happy to confront Putin as he also, marches to the west. Right? Or, maybe not.

BUT if the US did leave, what crisis would happen before the EU actually came to the party?

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....as we all know blutto is more than a bit dim.....so could you please explain why exactly the EU should confront Putin....

Cheers[/quote]

Err because he wants to annex large parts of Eastern Europe, former parts of the USSR, the operative word being 'Europe'...[/quote]

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....and which large parts would those be exactly....

Cheers[/quote]

I know you can call up a map..Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine.[/quote]

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....maybe we have a slightly different understanding of the meaning of the word large because neither Moldava nor Estonia could be normally considered large parts of Eastern Europe....and frankly don't represent huge strategic or economic advantage...

.....Ukraine on the other hand is indeed large but Russia has already made its bid to keep it somewhat economically healthy within its economic orbit but that was rejected by the glorious revolution which favoured annexation by the Exceptionalistan/IMF/World Bank cabal....gonna be interesting what there actually is going to be left for Russia to annex after the glorious revolution and its corrupt oligarchic sponsors reduce it to a puddle of economic sludge ( read, given its downward accelerating economic trajectory who is going to throw enough money at this mess to save it except maybe to cherry pick its considerable assets at fire-sale prices and throttle it with a Greek style loan millstone necklace ...the EU?....Exceptionalistan, fresh from its hugely successful nation re-building in Iraq and Afghanistan ?...)...

....one line of thought is that after the West totally messes up The Ukraine there will in fact be a revolution by saner elements of Ukrainian society and they will go back to having reasonable relations with Russia (and the EU )...and Exceptionalistan and its nazi friends will be told to take a hike because their attempt at annexation was another in a long line of tragic busts...

Cheers[/quote]

I'm sure that if the USA never got involved in international conflicts eventually there would be a lot of begging going on for them to do so as the UN is worthless. China saves money by not getting involved and they prefer to spy and use their cyber warriors and buy up real estate in most major cities of the world. As for Ukraine I think Russia is the least of their problems. Corruption and the lack of political will to make real changes to the country continue to cripple it. The politicians are either throwing fists at each other, buying new houses or taking expensive holidays. The honest ones don't hang around long enough to make a difference as they realize it is just a hopeless situation.