World Politics

[python]

frenchfry:

It's ALL about the political show. Hollande is pathetic in his posturing, when he has show a total lack of leadership and foresight during his mandate so far. The COP21 appears to be a big demonstration that will likely lead to a watered down agreement that will never be implemented by a majority of countries.

hollande is a small man. literally and politically. but he's hardly posturing more than the rest of the 150 heads of state he's hosting today. this is a united nations event. the un is 80% about posturing and the rest about fixing the world. rich and developed nations posture about 'due fairness' and their former colonies for a 'fairer contribution' by the rich. of course, it's oversimplified, but the point is that political symbolism, and i agree it's wasteful, is an integral part of international relation and diplomatic protocol. they have been forming for centuries and imo are, at least in part, rooted in human psychology, if not our dna.

i and my household have long ago decided to limit our contribution to less wasteful ways down to what we can personally practice. we ride bikes everywhere, re-use as much as we can etc. i'll even open my little wacky secret. our kitchen operates on the principles of recovery and efficiency i research and ms python put in practice (if there's interest, i can share some in the appropriate thread)

....the big wigs will always be big wasters b/c they operate in a different dimension.

 

[python]

following the su-24 downing by turkey, some posters expressed an opinion that any violation of a sovereign country airspace should be considered a provocation. if the violation was repetitive, which is an objective fact, the downing was justified the opinion went...

'not necessarily so', the following article argues. multiple violations were committed by the russians in the israeli airspace and flagrant, persistent violations by the turks themselves of the greek sky are plain ridiculous. mindful of a bigger picture and the heavy consequences, the 'violated' did not down anyone. the ever trigger nervous, hypersensitive state like israel even decided to make public it WON'T happen.

Russian aircraft occasionally intrude Israeli airspace, whereas Turkish jets regularly violate the Greek one.
http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/29/russian-intruding-israel-airspace-turkish-greek-one/

“Russian pilots occasionally cross into Israeli airspace, but due to excellent defense coordination that began with Netanyahu’s meeting with Putin in which limits were set, the Israel Defense Forces and the Russian military agreed on security arrangements,” said General (res.) Amos Gilad

An article published by Politico last summer reported figures from research at the University of Thessaly, according to which there were 2,244 incursions of Turkish fighter jets and helicopters in 2014 alone.

 

[Brullnux]

Britain is coming!

MPs will most likely vote for air strikes in Syria, despite no actual strategy and a horrendous argument given by Cameron. There is no point in the UK joining air strikes. France, Russia and the US are already there and doing minimal damage; what can the UK do. A nadir in Cameron's foreign policy over the last couple of years.

As Matthew Parris wrote (surprisingly) in The Times: "Britain will join the air strikes in Syria because it's the type of thing Britain does. Not because it will be necessary or even slightly useful"

Coupled with a budget that made bi sense to anyone, the last week or so prove that Gideon and Dave clearly, I cannot put it any other way, do not give a **** about the UK. Although, the u-turn on tax credits was nice of them - although we would never have come to this point of Gideon had not had his lightbulb moment.

Bombing Syria is just what ISIL want. What better propaganda other than: "The west want to kill us all" can they find? Not helped by the gener a couple of days ago who basically said that Syrian lives are worth next to nothing (he said "civilian casualties in Raqqa should not stop us").

 

[Brullnux]

@python: I'm interested in your kitchen tactic...

 

[Merckx index]

Re:

i and my household have long ago decided to limit our contribution to less wasteful ways down to what we can personally practice. we ride bikes everywhere, re-use as much as we can etc. i'll even open my little wacky secret. our kitchen operates on the principles of recovery and efficiency i research and ms python put in practice (if there's interest, i can share some in the appropriate thread)

....the big wigs will always be big wasters b/c they operate in a different dimension.

Nothing wacky about that at all, I've been doing it for decades, from long before "energy crisis" was a common term. I'd do it even if society were overflowing with cheap energy, just as I wouldn't waste money even if I were a billionaire.

By all means, start a thread on this, I'll read with interest what you've come up with.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

(if there's interest, i can share some in the appropriate thread)

I'd be interested in a thread like that. I say go for it...

 

[python]

@ m.index, brullnux, irondan and others

appreciate your interest. i will follow up sometime tomorrow (need to clear time to look into my notes etc). not sure if the existing thread on cooking will be appropriate...if not i will start another b/c some ideas are clearly beyond cooking (like fans vs. air conditioners etc)

 

[blutto]

....there has over the last little while, and the last few weeks especially, this meme, international terrorism, that just keeps being bounced around but never clearly defined or identified...ran across something this afternoon that may help put this term into a bit more perspective....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" The chapters that follow are based on lectures given in Managua in 1986, at the peak of Reagan's terrorist war against Nicaragua. The lectures took place at about the time when the International Court of Justice condemned the United States for "the unlawful use of force" - aka international terrorism - and ordered it to cease the crimes and pay substantial reparations. The court was haughtily dismissed as a "hostile forum" by the editors of the New York Times, offended that it should dare condemn the United States for its crimes. For some years, the United States was joined in defiance of the World Court by Muammar Qaddafi and Enver Hoxha, but Libya and Albania have since complied with the Court judgments, leaving the United States in the splendid isolation it proudly occupies on many international issues.

The essential problem that the United States faces in the world was explained by State Department legal advisor Abram Sofaer. The world majority, he observed, "often opposes the United States on important international questions," so that we must "reserve to ourselves the power to determine" which matters fall "essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of the United States, as determined by the United States," in this case, international terrorism that was intended to punish and devastate the country where I was lecturing - or in approved Orwellian translation, to bring it the blessings of freedom and democracy.

At the same time the cultural correspondent of the New York Times, Richard Bernstein, explained in the Times Magazine the world was out of step because of various psychological and social maladies. His article was accordingly entitled "The U.N. versus the U.S.," not "the U.S. versus the U.N."

The pathologies of the world continue. In December 2013, the BBC reported the results of an international Gallup poll showing that the United States was regarded as the greatest threat to world peace by an overwhelming margin. No one else even came close. Fortunately, the Free Press spared the American public this further evidence of global backwardness."

....from... http://www.truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/33819-the-hubris-of-the-united-states-waging-war-by-claiming-it-is-just-and-its-enemies-evil

....and the following is a fine companion piece as is the Stockman article that it comments on extensively...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In a provocative piece called, "Blowback -- the Washington War Party's Folly Comes Home to Roost," David Stockman asks, in effect — "Does America have the wars it seeks and deserves?"

Whatever your answer might be, or mine, I think Stockman's answer is Yes, and he details that answer in an excellent looking-back and looking-forward essay about the U.S. and its Middle East "involvement." I have excerpted several sections below, but the whole is worth a full top-to-bottom read.

Before we turn to Stockman's points, though, I just want to highlight two semi-hidden ideas in his essay. One is about money. What Stockman calls the "War Party" in Washington is really the bipartisan Money Party, since the largest-by-far pile of cash looted from the federal budget (in other words, from taxpayers) goes to fund our military and its suppliers and enablers. Which means that most of it is stolen and diverted in some way. Which means that those who do the stealing have a lot of "skin in the game" — the game that keeps the money flowing in the first place."

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/gaius-publius/64991/blowback-money-and-the-washington-war-party

Cheers

 

[rhubroma]

What I don't understand with those self-righteous Western suprematists that you all are, you see the facts, but in all cases, you'd clear your Western government from any responsability in the conflict.

I mean Turkey is no longer a Nato member, it's "Nato (sic)", now. But lol, it can never occur to you that they are doing what is expected of the Nato state with a common border with Syria. Their acts can never be those of a NATO state, no. Turkey is just the Islamic Fifth Column inside Nato. Turkey being a violently secularist state built up on a genocide and on the terror secularist regime of Attaturk is forgotten.
In any case, Nato has never been funding or providing weapons to terrorists. Gladio never existed. Piazza Fontana 1969, Oktoberfest 1980, Station of Bologna 1980. No, Nato is no terrorist organisation, please.

Besides, I'm fed up with you all Islamophobic leftists who pretend to care for the Palestinians while since they are Muslims, surely you don't give a FLIP about them. If you were true to your opinion you'd voice open support for Israel but you don't have the balls for it.

I'm still waiting for the logic behind the idea that recognizing the State of Palestine would appease the terrorists. France had to big terrorist attacks AFTER the Parliament recognized it. ISIL is destablizing Palestine, not Israel. What's your logic?

Al Nusra is more focused on the Syrian regime than on ISIL whom they are trying to negotiate with. ISIL killed many more loyalists than other terrorist groups (if you add the Lebanese and the Russians to it, it's even more obvious). Israel has hospitalized some 500 terrorist from Al Nusra and don't consider ISIL a threat, unlike Iran.

All that should raise questions. But obviously, if you can't possibly believe that Western governments are funding and/or arming terrorists, you'll never get it.

The genocide practically emptied the Ottoman Empire and current Turkey from its Christian population, leaving an almost entirely Muslim/Turkish Turkey. Certainly Islam, but only secular Attaturk, had nothing to do with that.

The massacres were an attempt to create a new homogenous Turkish state. The former ethnic and religious diversity that characterized the Ottoman Empire, had in the accelerating decomposition of the empire from early 1800s, disappeared, namely when the Christian nations in the Balkans began to free themselves and proclaim independence. This made the Ottoman Empire, from being multi-religious, now converted to a virtually Muslim empire (except for the Armenian, Assyrian/Syrian/Caldeans and Greeks). It did not take long until the Arabs of North Africa and the Middle East rebelled and freed themselves. The Ottoman Empire was now almost entirely Muslim, and more importantly, overwhelmingly a Turkish state, i.e. the Turkey today. An attempt to restore the empire's greatness by creating an Islamic empire at the end of the 1800s had failed. Turkish leaders realized that the only way to compensate for the lost territories was to expand eastward and establish a pure Turkish state. But there was an obvious obstacle on the road, namely the Christian non-Turkish Armenia. The desired homogenization was initially attempted to realize by Turkification (or as it is also called Ottomanization) all inhabitants. This was achieved through forced assimilation and forced conversion of minorities in the country and when that did not yield results quickly enough - massacres and persecutions.

The conflict was thus religious and it didn't even end in 1915.

No, the massacres, the deportations and the confiscation of the victims' property continued long into the 1930s, when the new Kemalist leadership in Turkey completed the Young Turk policy of cleansing Turkey from its Christian indigenous population, with the slogan "Turkey for Turks". In addition to continuing massacres, which now also expanded beyond Turkey's borders (between 200,000 to 300,000 were killed in Caucasus Armenia as well as thousands of Assyrians/Syrians in the Persian province of Urmia). Another more sophisticated measure was to provide the surviving Ottoman Armenians with passports allowing them to traveled out of Turkey without the possibility of re-entry. So when they left the country, mainly crossing the border with Lebanon and Syria, in the belief that they were allowed to return when the situation inside Turkey had stabilized, they were refused entry upon return and their property was seized by the newly introduced laws that gave the state the right to confiscate "abandoned property".

I'm glad you mentioned Piazza Fontana and Stazione Centrale of Bologna and the strategia della tensione it presupposes, which was fascist backed CIA terrorism to keep socialism and the communists from doing their evil work in Cold War Italy. And where were the Catholics?!

 

[Brullnux]

With P2, ofc

 

[Echoes]

So again I have to get back to the roots of the Young Turk movement, namely Sabbatai Zevi and the Dönmeh. The Dönmeh recognized Sabbatai Zevi (Jewish kabbalist from the 17th century) as the Jewish Messiah. They publicly spuriously converted to Islam in order to vilify it from within but privately retained their own uses and customs. They advocated for "redemption through sins" (which is not really Islamic nor Christian).

Most of the Young Turks were dönmeh, including Talaat, Jemal & Enver Paşa, the masterminds of the Armenian deportations. The Young Turks were liberals, they sought to "transform their society into one in which religion played no consequential role, a stark contrast from the theocracy that had ruled the Ottoman Empire since its inception" (amazing that even Wikipedia acknowledged that fact and not you ).

"Positivism, with its claim of being a religion of science, deeply impressed the Young Turks, who believed it could be more easily reconciled with Islam than could popular materialistic theories. The name of the society, Committee of Union and Progress, is believed to be inspired by leading positivist Auguste Comte's motto Order and Progress. Positivism also served as a base for the desired strong government."

That's very Islamic indeed.

Of course, religion had to do with this. It's just another example of a religious community being persecuted by atheists, like there are hundreds of example in history.

Even the great film director Henri Verneuil who is of Armenian heritage agreed that Enver, Jemal and Talaat Paşa were all "atheists" (his word, not mine).

------------

The Vatican II Council had ended four years before the Piazza Fontana Attack. It means that the Catholics were reduced to complete irrelevance ever since, like today. Rome is apostate and filled with Freemasons (i.e. secularists) from the P2 lodge, as mentioned above.

My point is not there. This is past. Now we are in a new Gladio period. Gladio B as Sibel Edmonds referred to. In which Turkey has played a pivotal role, Nato via Turkey working with Al Qaeda in the Caucasus (Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, etc.). Already before the fall of the Soviet Union, there were Gladio operation in Turkey but Western MSM were more busy with what happened in Italy. Sibel's work helps understanding Turkey's role today. But who are the leaders? How on earth can anybody believe Turkey is acting alone? Really did Oswald also act alone, with a magic bullet?

 

[Brullnux]

So again I have to get back to the roots of the Young Turk movement, namely Sabbatai Zevi and the Dönmeh. The Dönmeh recognized Sabbatai Zevi (Jewish kabbalist from the 17th century) as the Jewish Messiah. They publicly spuriously converted to Islam in order to vilify it from within but privately retained their own uses and customs. They advocated for "redemption through sins" (which is not really Islamic nor Christian).

Most of the Young Turks were dönmeh, including Talaat, Jemal & Enver Paşa, the masterminds of the Armenian deportations. The Young Turks were liberals, they sought to "transform their society into one in which religion played no consequential role, a stark contrast from the theocracy that had ruled the Ottoman Empire since its inception" (amazing that even Wikipedia acknowledged that fact and not you ).

"Positivism, with its claim of being a religion of science, deeply impressed the Young Turks, who believed it could be more easily reconciled with Islam than could popular materialistic theories. The name of the society, Committee of Union and Progress, is believed to be inspired by leading positivist Auguste Comte's motto Order and Progress. Positivism also served as a base for the desired strong government."

That's very Islamic indeed.

Of course, religion had to do with this. It's just another example of a religious community being persecuted by atheists, like there are hundreds of example in history.

Even the great film director Henri Verneuil who is of Armenian heritage agreed that Enver, Jemal and Talaat Paşa were all "atheists" (his word, not mine).

------------

The Vatican II Council had ended four years before the Piazza Fontana Attack. It means that the Catholics were reduced to complete irrelevance ever since, like today. Rome is apostate and filled with Freemasons (i.e. secularists) from the P2 lodge, as mentioned above.

My point is not there. This is past. Now we are in a new Gladio period. Gladio B as Sibel Edmonds referred to. In which Turkey has played a pivotal role, Nato via Turkey working with Al Qaeda in the Caucasus (Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, etc.). Already before the fall of the Soviet Union, there were Gladio operation in Turkey but Western MSM were more busy with what happened in Italy. Sibel's work helps understanding Turkey's role today. But who are the leaders? How on earth can anybody believe Turkey is acting alone? Really did Oswald also act alone, with a magic bullet?

Let's just casually forget how many wars and conflicts religion has caused (and consequently deaths), and how many times religions have persecuted other religions. Troubles caused by atheism pales in significance. In fact, "hundreds" may be a hyperbole somewhat.

As to Propaganda Due being atheist, Silvio was Roman Catholic, and was the most famous members. Most other members were christian, owing to the fact that Italy was (and still is) a very Roman Catholic country. P" did not do what they did in name of religion though. OTOH, most the people they killed were those pesky socialists and commies that opposed religion.

I agree with the rest though, except Turkey, which I know nothing about so won't comment on.

 

[hrotha]

I'm not sure why the Young Turks are so important in this discussion, when it's obvious that Turkey has changed dramatically the last couple of decades and especially under Erdoğan.

 

[rhubroma]

So again I have to get back to the roots of the Young Turk movement, namely Sabbatai Zevi and the Dönmeh. The Dönmeh recognized Sabbatai Zevi (Jewish kabbalist from the 17th century) as the Jewish Messiah. They publicly spuriously converted to Islam in order to vilify it from within but privately retained their own uses and customs. They advocated for "redemption through sins" (which is not really Islamic nor Christian).

Most of the Young Turks were dönmeh, including Talaat, Jemal & Enver Paşa, the masterminds of the Armenian deportations. The Young Turks were liberals, they sought to "transform their society into one in which religion played no consequential role, a stark contrast from the theocracy that had ruled the Ottoman Empire since its inception" (amazing that even Wikipedia acknowledged that fact and not you ).

"Positivism, with its claim of being a religion of science, deeply impressed the Young Turks, who believed it could be more easily reconciled with Islam than could popular materialistic theories. The name of the society, Committee of Union and Progress, is believed to be inspired by leading positivist Auguste Comte's motto Order and Progress. Positivism also served as a base for the desired strong government."

That's very Islamic indeed.

Of course, religion had to do with this. It's just another example of a religious community being persecuted by atheists, like there are hundreds of example in history.

Even the great film director Henri Verneuil who is of Armenian heritage agreed that Enver, Jemal and Talaat Paşa were all "atheists" (his word, not mine).

------------

The Vatican II Council had ended four years before the Piazza Fontana Attack. It means that the Catholics were reduced to complete irrelevance ever since, like today. Rome is apostate and filled with Freemasons (i.e. secularists) from the P2 lodge, as mentioned above.

My point is not there. This is past. Now we are in a new Gladio period. Gladio B as Sibel Edmonds referred to. In which Turkey has played a pivotal role, Nato via Turkey working with Al Qaeda in the Caucasus (Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, etc.). Already before the fall of the Soviet Union, there were Gladio operation in Turkey but Western MSM were more busy with what happened in Italy. Sibel's work helps understanding Turkey's role today. But who are the leaders? How on earth can anybody believe Turkey is acting alone? Really did Oswald also act alone, with a magic bullet?

The Vatican supported Silvio under his communist boogeyman paranoia, while fincanced the last scrubbings of its churches from the charity it was supposed to give the poor, and its cardinals luxury suits. It's striking how the clergy can't get beyond its phobias, even in the face of behavior that goes against its doctrines. What hypocrites!

In any case the Armenian genocide was inflicted by Muslims against Christians, however much they were colored by the positivist ideology. When religion, any religion, finds another support for its intolerances, the lethal result is just gastly.

I don't really care about what Turkey does, that's America's f-ing problem.

 

[blutto]

So again I have to get back to the roots of the Young Turk movement, namely Sabbatai Zevi and the Dönmeh. The Dönmeh recognized Sabbatai Zevi (Jewish kabbalist from the 17th century) as the Jewish Messiah. They publicly spuriously converted to Islam in order to vilify it from within but privately retained their own uses and customs. They advocated for "redemption through sins" (which is not really Islamic nor Christian).

Most of the Young Turks were dönmeh, including Talaat, Jemal & Enver Paşa, the masterminds of the Armenian deportations. The Young Turks were liberals, they sought to "transform their society into one in which religion played no consequential role, a stark contrast from the theocracy that had ruled the Ottoman Empire since its inception" (amazing that even Wikipedia acknowledged that fact and not you ).

"Positivism, with its claim of being a religion of science, deeply impressed the Young Turks, who believed it could be more easily reconciled with Islam than could popular materialistic theories. The name of the society, Committee of Union and Progress, is believed to be inspired by leading positivist Auguste Comte's motto Order and Progress. Positivism also served as a base for the desired strong government."

That's very Islamic indeed.

Of course, religion had to do with this. It's just another example of a religious community being persecuted by atheists, like there are hundreds of example in history.

Even the great film director Henri Verneuil who is of Armenian heritage agreed that Enver, Jemal and Talaat Paşa were all "atheists" (his word, not mine).

------------

The Vatican II Council had ended four years before the Piazza Fontana Attack. It means that the Catholics were reduced to complete irrelevance ever since, like today. Rome is apostate and filled with Freemasons (i.e. secularists) from the P2 lodge, as mentioned above.

My point is not there. This is past. Now we are in a new Gladio period. Gladio B as Sibel Edmonds referred to. In which Turkey has played a pivotal role, Nato via Turkey working with Al Qaeda in the Caucasus (Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, etc.). Already before the fall of the Soviet Union, there were Gladio operation in Turkey but Western MSM were more busy with what happened in Italy. Sibel's work helps understanding Turkey's role today. But who are the leaders? How on earth can anybody believe Turkey is acting alone? Really did Oswald also act alone, with a magic bullet?

The Vatican supported Silvio under his communist boogeyman paranoia, while fincanced the last scrubbings of its churches from the charity it was supposed to give the poor, and its cardinals luxury suits. It's striking how the clergy can't get beyond its phobias, even in the face of behavior that goes against its doctrines. What hypocrites!

In any case the Armenian genocide was inflicted by Muslims against Christians, however much they were colored by the positivist ideology. When religion, any religion, finds another support for its intolerances, the lethal result is just gastly.

I don't really care about what Turkey does, that's America's f-ing problem.

...yup....no, make that a loud resounding yup....

Cheers

 

[blackcat]

I don't really care about what Turkey does, that's America's f-ing problem.

well, Erdogan is gonna learn, "dont poke the bear", cos Putin will inflict damage in multiples.

even if it was a deep state/renegade action, and no endorsement from ankara... as I suspect it was not a support from the regime, it was just went there is the greyzone, and $h!t happens that no one expects, and no one can control anymore.

if it aint russia, it will be russian proxies... erdogan gonna pay.

 

[python]

I don't really care about what Turkey does, that's America's f-ing problem.

well, Erdogan is gonna learn, "dont poke the bear", cos Putin will inflict damage in multiples.

there's little doubt of that and as i mentioned before, the place and the timing of the revenge will be as always a surprise left to vlad's choice. if not for the turkey nato tie, i am 110% sure there would be already turkish planes shot out of the sky...after all, as i just read someplace, there were over a dozen historically documented wars (not to be confused with a border skirmish) between the 2. i am sure that in turkey you'll hear a different version, but the authors claim that the turks lost in all of them.

but the escalation has already gone far beyond the 'get even'. it's a slowly fired all-out economic and psychological war that judging by the shots already fired will last for years...russia is cutting almost everything it can trying to avoid undue harm to its own economy. do you remember the turkish stream ? it was a big deal russia announced as a way to bypass the ukraine's pipes to europe. it's now over. to understand the significance of the move, it is worth to consider that natural gas exports to europe are 1 of the foundations of their economy. take that in light of the alternative routes to europe that gazprom always wanted to unwind - via ukraine and poland. that is, russia is taking a voluntary dependence on its new enemy ukraine to punish turkey. it's gone even beyond. the links on the construction of turkey's 1st nuke are also suspended. the nukes are the only high tech branch, besides the weaponry, where russia could claim parity to the western technology. the only, take my word ! they are now pissing in the nuclear cloud too jeopardizing their reputation ! and there is more. all russia's turkish or turkic cultural institution are told to sever relation. several sports teams are told to find other places for the off-season camps...more, 1/3 of russia's civil and industrial construction is either staffed or subsidized by the turks... they are being gradually expelled at the risk of losing economic grown while the country is already in recession...it's that serious.

that said, both are holding their 'nuclear options' back yet. for turkey - it is closing the strait for russian shipping. and for russia it is cutting off natural gas (60% of turkey's needs)

even if it was a deep state/renegade action, and no endorsement from ankara... as I suspect it was not a support from the regime, it was just went there is the greyzone, and $h!t happens that no one expects, and no one can control anymore.

not sure i understood this...erdogan had publicly admitted that the shooting was on his orders to tighten the rules of engagement and he supports his military.

 

[hrotha]

Technically, Turkey has never fought Russia - all those were Russo-Ottoman wars. Just to illustrate how little light they'll shed on the current situation, the last one was the First World War, i.e. 100 years ago.

The one before that, the Russians lost, even though it might be a stretch to say the Ottomans won. It was the Crimean War, where the Turks were backed by a Western coallition against Russia.

 

[python]

speaking 'technically', it's worth noting that you contribution was utterly pointless, b/c by your logic they technically never fought as it was zars against the ottomans..that they fought for centuries over many of the same things that separate them now - the crimea, the larger influence in the middle east etc, of cause sheds some light on your understanding of the situation. and of course, referring to the last crimea war in which the russians NEVER faced the turkish troops is plain historic ignorance.

 

[hrotha]

No, by my logic we'd have to rule out any Soviet-Turkish wars, but it turns out there were never any so it's fine.

And by "the last Crimean War", are you referring to 2014? Certainly not to 1854-1856.

 

[python]

i am not surprised that your ignorance goes that far...please link to ANY - east, west, north, south, russian, ukrainian, nato... - ANY source that would be widely accepted that would refer to the 2014 events in crimea as war. if in your ignorant mind it was a war, you have to just say that and i would fine with it.

 

[hrotha]

Look, you can stop insulting me, because I never insulted you. And you do this all the time, whenever I so much as dare address one of my posts in your general direction in this thread.

I didn't say 2014 was a Crimean War. I asked, quite rhetorically, whether you (perhaps jokingly) were referring to 2014 as a Crimean War, to make sense of your statement that the Russians never fought Turkish troops in the 1854-1856 war, which is simply wrong. And I'm not even referring just to the pre-Crimean phase of the war, 1853-1854, before France, the UK and Piedmont-Sardinia intervened. The battle of Balaclava famously started with the Russians driving the Turks out of the redoubts that defended the town.

So take a closer look next time you think of calling out someone on their "ignorance".

 

[python]

i did not insult you. I called your contribution in re. to my reply to blackcat pointless and ignorant. it was.

among the several points i addressed, i referred to many wars the turks and the russians fought that imo colour their conflict today. you chose a mocking tone that they ' technically' they never fought, b/c it was ottomans then. which is an obvious ignorant interpretation of history. it is widely understood that the modern turkey and russia are different states than the ottoman or czarist empires. nevertheless, saying that they never fought is IGNORING they represent the same core nations within the same neighborhood and thus having many of the same problems separating them today as in the old...thus you chose to ignore or were innocently ignorant. as to claiming a joke after an obvious mocking, when it was rather obvious that i was referring to the 19th century crimean war in which russia lost to britain/france, and when it faced the turks they prevailed, well, take my response as you deserved. i referred to crimean events only in response to your reference to crimea. attempting to spread a wider context on a specific points i made - russia and turkey are frequent foes - was , yes, pointless.

 

[hrotha]

Ah, so now the Russians did fight the Turks in the Crimean War after all. Nice backtracking, champ.

I'll dumb it down for you then: my point was never "the Turks have nothing to do with the Ottomans!!!11". My point was "that stuff you're bringing up for the second time in this thread as if it shed light on the topic at hand is positively ancient; it has little to no bearing on the current conflict compared to what happened during and after the Cold War". I also didn't say I was joking*. I said I was taking into account the possibility that you were joking about the "2014 Crimean War", because you see, otherwise your statement that the Russians never faced the Turks in the Crimean War would be a sign of your ignorance. And that would have been almost too ironic, what with you just having calling me out on my ignorance, so out of fairness I considered that you might not have been referring to the 1854-1856 war after all. Now I see my deference was displaced. I'm sorry.

*Well, I was by jokingly linking the Crimean War to a hypothetical 21st century conflict over Crimea that pitted the Russians against the West and the Turks (like "oh gods we're totally heading there!"), not like something that has or will happen. But that was the only joke in my posts, and it's irrelevant to what we're actually discussing. I didn't adopt a mocking tone - I saw the smiley rather as "defusing" a potential hostile interpretation of my post. Obviously it failed, because you're always keen to jump to conclusions and to insult anyone who doesn't play along after almost half-reading a quarter of their post diagonally.

 

[python]

I'll dumb it down

no need to as it was plenty, champ and if you continue in the regard you'll just exposed your ignorance further.

again, the 2 states are in the same neighborhood with many of the same competitive problems for influence and proxies, that's why many unlike you ignoring the plain fact, examine history of certain nations relations. everything else you posted is trying to get yourself out of the pit you dug.