World Politics

[Echoes]

Let's just casually forget how many wars and conflicts religion has caused (and consequently deaths), and how many times religions have persecuted other religions. Troubles caused by atheism pales in significance. In fact, "hundreds" may be a hyperbole somewhat.

Gratuitous comment.

As to Propaganda Due being atheist, Silvio was Roman Catholic, and was the most famous members. Most other members were christian, owing to the fact that Italy was (and still is) a very Roman Catholic country. P" did not do what they did in name of religion though. OTOH, most the people they killed were those pesky socialists and commies that opposed religion.

Three points. If by Silvio you mean Berlusconi, let me remind you first that he was not the most famous member. The Grand Master of P2 was Licio Gelli, an arm dealer, close to Peron, Gaddafi, etc who orchestrated the murder of anti-Pope John Paul I (Albino Luciani) along with Roberto Calvi, Michele Sindona and Paul Marcinkus because Luciani wished to rid the Vatican of those Freemasons.

Second, Freemasonry and Roman Catholicism are incompatible. It's one or the other. Berlusconi is a Freemason. So he cannot be a Roman Catholic.

Third, a quick look at Berlusconi's personal life and at the TV shows that were aired on his channels can prove he had nothing to do with Roman Catholicism. You've gotta be incredibly dishonest to claim otherwise.

I'm not sure why the Young Turks are so important in this discussion, when it's obvious that Turkey has changed dramatically the last couple of decades and especially under Erdoğan.

I on the contrary see a perfectly linear evolution from the Young Turks to Erdoğan.

The Vatican supported Silvio under his communist boogeyman paranoia, while fincanced the last scrubbings of its churches from the charity it was supposed to give the poor, and its cardinals luxury suits. It's striking how the clergy can't get beyond its phobias, even in the face of behavior that goes against its doctrines. What hypocrites!

Conciliarists acting accordingly. No wonder! Vatican II Council's logic.

I don't need to reply about the Armenian Genocide because you bring no more arguments. I prove that it was inflicted by atheists against Christians. The case is closed.

I don't really care about what Turkey does, that's America's f-ing problem.

What you care or don't care is indifferent to me. What Turkey does is not America's problem, it's Syria's problem, in case you haven't notice. How many people killed in Syria, how many in the USA? But it's not hard for me to prove that you swear allegiance to the US administrations. For this I only need to read your last bit about Central Africa. You managed to list a dozen of continental European countries + a Francophone country like Lebanon as countries that sacked Central Africa but of course not a single Anglophone country nor Israel. I mean the great scripwriter Michel Audiard once said: "Tw*ts dare everything, that's even how you recognise them." This was pretty bold indeed.

 

[blackcat]

even if it was a deep state/renegade action, and no endorsement from ankara... as I suspect it was not a support from the regime, it was just went there is the greyzone, and $h!t happens that no one expects, and no one can control anymore.

not sure i understood this...erdogan had publicly admitted that the shooting was on his orders to tighten the rules of engagement and he supports his military.

yeah, erdogan "said" that. Does not make it true, he might just feel he is making the expedient and wise choice, to take ownership of these new "rules of engagement". He may have had his hands tied, as I implied.

ofcourse, your reply, probably has a degree more validity.

 

[python]

one of my rss feeds just beeped that a russian defense ministry briefing just ended and that it was unprecedentedly harsh anti-turkish with direct insults towards the erdogan family..they said an english version of the briefing will be available soon. therefore, I will refrain from quoting some of the incredibly harsh statements i just read till i read the english version personally.

 

[python]

I will refrain from quoting some of the incredibly harsh statements i just read till i read the english version personally.

still no english original had been posted on the briefing. the following is the reuters version. the essence of the russian military accusations, is about the same as what the guardian said in one of the recently linked articles: erdogan is knee deep in smuggling the oil.

the difference is in the tone bluntness. indeed, the tone sounds too undiplomatic to mar the 'polite folks' from the foreign office.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/02/us-mideast-crisis-russia-turkey-idUSKBN0TL19S20151202?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

"Maybe I'm being too blunt, but one can only entrust control over this thieving business to one's closest associates."

What a marvellous family business!"

The cynicism of the Turkish leadership knows no limits. Look what they're doing. They went into someone else's country, they are robbing it without compunction

,

 

[rhubroma]

Let's just casually forget how many wars and conflicts religion has caused (and consequently deaths), and how many times religions have persecuted other religions. Troubles caused by atheism pales in significance. In fact, "hundreds" may be a hyperbole somewhat.

Gratuitous comment.

As to Propaganda Due being atheist, Silvio was Roman Catholic, and was the most famous members. Most other members were christian, owing to the fact that Italy was (and still is) a very Roman Catholic country. P" did not do what they did in name of religion though. OTOH, most the people they killed were those pesky socialists and commies that opposed religion.

Three points. If by Silvio you mean Berlusconi, let me remind you first that he was not the most famous member. The Grand Master of P2 was, an arm dealer, close to Peron, Gaddafi, etc who orchestrated the murder of anti-Pope John Paul I (Albino Luciani) along with Roberto Calvi, Michele Sindona and Paul Marcinkus because Luciani wished to rid the Vatican of those Freemasons.

Second, Freemasonry and Roman Catholicism are incompatible. It's one or the other. Berlusconi is a Freemason. So he cannot be a Roman Catholic.

Third, a quick look at Berlusconi's personal life and at the TV shows that were aired on his channels can prove he had nothing to do with Roman Catholicism. You've gotta be incredibly dishonest to claim otherwise.

I'm not sure why the Young Turks are so important in this discussion, when it's obvious that Turkey has changed dramatically the last couple of decades and especially under Erdoğan.

I on the contrary see a perfectly linear evolution from the Young Turks to Erdoğan.

The Vatican supported Silvio under his communist boogeyman paranoia, while fincanced the last scrubbings of its churches from the charity it was supposed to give the poor, and its cardinals luxury suits. It's striking how the clergy can't get beyond its phobias, even in the face of behavior that goes against its doctrines. What hypocrites!

Conciliarists acting accordingly. No wonder! Vatican II Council's logic.

I don't need to reply about the Armenian Genocide because you bring no more arguments. I prove that it was inflicted by atheists against Christians. The case is closed.

I don't really care about what Turkey does, that's America's f-ing problem.

What you care or don't care is indifferent to me. What Turkey does is not America's problem, it's Syria's problem, in case you haven't notice. How many people killed in Syria, how many in the USA? But it's not hard for me to prove that you swear allegiance to the US administrations. For this I only need to read your last bit about Central Africa. You managed to list a dozen of continental European countries + a Francophone country like Lebanon as countries that sacked Central Africa but of course not a single Anglophone country nor Israel. I mean the great scripwriter Michel Audiard once said: "Tw*ts dare everything, that's even how you recognise them." This was pretty bold indeed.

Let me remind everyone that Echoes doesn't speak on behalf of the Catholic Church, but on that of a crypto-fascist sect established by Marcel Lefebvre, who has been excommunicated in perpetuum. Not that it regards me, however, what you say about the Catholic Church as such has no bearing. Anybody that wants to read about Lefebvre's theological positions - the rejection of ecumenism in favor of Catholic exclusivism; the espousal of pragmatic religious tolerance instead of the principle of religious liberty; the rejection of collegiality within the Church in favor of strict Papal supremacy; opposition to the replacement of the Tridentine Mass - can be free to do
so on their own.

"Lefebvre belonged to an identifiable strand of right-wing political and religious opinion in French society that originated among the defeated royalists after the 1789 French Revolution. Lefebvre's political and theological outlook mirrored that of a significant number of conservative members of French society under the French Third Republic (1870–1940). The Third Republic was reft by conflicts between the secular Left and the Catholic Right, with many individuals on both sides espousing distinctly radical positions (see, for example, the article on the famous Dreyfus affair). Thus it has been said that 'Lefebvre was... a man formed by the bitter hatreds that defined the battle lines in French society and culture from the French Revolution to the Vichy regime.'" Even Wikipedia knows this.

As a fanatical monarchist, France was ruined when modernism ushered forth in 1789; the Quattrocento was the last moment before the "great fall into religious sectarianism." With such a peurile view about lineage, a rejection of modernity, it's no wonder Echoes has an affinity with the Islamic world. He is anachronism personified.

At any rate, Berlusconi, regardless of his affiliation with P2, enjoyed fine relations with the Vatican. Having lived through his era I know. Your theory of a Masonic conspiracy against Pope John Paul I, in connection with Licio Gelli, Calvi, Marcinkus and Sindona is well known. Books have been written about the topic, but the Vatican has covered the truth. Not that this matters in regards to Berlusconi, whose TV programs may have lead to massive Italian cultural atrophy, but Catholicism has always prayed upon popular ignorance. So Silvo paid them a favor! His trash is no more gravely inane than what the rest of the market driven world thrives upon though. What, though, is Free Masonry, if nothing else but a fringe occultist capitalist movement? It is thus little surprising that the Church of Rome would have so accomodated it during the Cold War.

No Turkey is America's problem, in so far as the war it conducts in Syria to destroy ISIL gets rather bogged down in the morass of having its major Nato partner supplying the enemy. Apart from this, I have made it clear, the US does its cause no service by its uncompromising alliance with Israel given the Palestinian debacle.

And just because you say so, Echoes, doesn't proove squat.

 

[Brullnux]

Wow do we (Britons) have three embarrassingly inept leaders...

Cameron, Corbyn and Farron all are terrible persuaders, who just make the wrong point continually. For those who missed the debate on whether or not the UK should join the largely ineffectual air strikes in Syria, as we all know that 20 odd British planes will make all the difference, here is a quick summary:

Cameron PM:
Did what Cameron does best, i.e lie and create facts as efficiently as Gideon cuts from social services. His was a point badly made mainly based on how we must help our neighbours and be the true jingoistic nation we are and how they [ISIL] will attack us for who we are, not what we do. This argument was up for extreme cross-examination and easy return from the repertoire of "why Cameron is wrong", an ever expanding list, from...

Corbyn, leader of the opposition:
Who did nothing. You'd expect from a man with 20-30 years of anti-war campaigning that he might mention the points that explain why we shouldn't go to war (how it is exactly what ISIL want, and thousands will probably turn en masse if the west start blindly massacring innocent civilians) but only mentioned them briefly and instead focused on how it is an illegal war, which it is hard to argue for considering many lawyers who specialise in UN charter and International relations said that it is hard to say, really. This leaves us with...

Farron: leader of lib dems, a dying party
Who said something about refugees. I don't quite remember, or care what they think. When Cameron is able to have a bit of badinage about the fact that only 6 out of 8 MPs turned up to a PMQs, then we know that they are not a party with any self respect. Oh wait, I seem to have forgotten the Scottish guy, what was his name... Oh yes

Salmond: former leader of the SNP; ousted by a much more talented politician
Said something intelligent surprisingly, about the fact we need to address how ISIL is getting money, something Cameron refuses to do as bombing is so much better and easier. But no one listened, as he is the same guy who missed the opening debate on Syria a couple of days ago as he unveiling a portrait in Edinburgh... Of himself. Yes really. Thank god Nicola is now leader of the SNPs. He did though, speak intelligently, just quite aggressively.


Britain seems to be stuck in a Kafka-esque labyrinth of crappy politicians, exempting the wonderful Sturgeon from criticism.

 

[python]

@rhubroma
you say turkey is america's problem. well, not the case according to today's pentagon briefing response to the russian 'pentagon' publicly claiming a proof that smuggling the isil oil was erdogan's family business. the pentagon spokesperson denied russian claims - 'no evidence'. though the russians posted a ton of their space spies taken images

@Recep Tayyip Erdoğan
the following source claims that russia is about to quadruple its air force in syria. if true, you are about to deal with more shyt...the unnamed sources claiming the stuff were right when russia was denying the september built-up.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russia-getting-ready-send-120-additional-combat-aircraft-14488
be watchful, my man, they may pass thru the black sea strait you control, just like their 1st batch of jets destined for syria, as a civilian cargo.

@brullnux
indeed. the leaders may be inapt, but you cant deny the decision-making to bomb syria (sure a stupid one) is exposed to a national debate,i'd dare to call more democratic than many of the uk's allies allowed.

 

[blutto]

...speaking of wars btwn Turkey and Russia....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: NBC News


STANBUL — A judge has asked five experts to determine whether comparing Turkey's president to "Lord of the Rings" character Gollum should be considered an insult.

Bilgin Ciftci appeared in court in southern Turkey on Tuesday and could face up to two years in jail for posting pictures of the slimy and scary creature juxtaposed with photos of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Facebook, according to his lawyer Hicran Danisman. Insulting a public figure is a crime in Turkey.

Judge Murat Saz in the city of Aydin asked that two academics, two psychologists or behavioral scientists and a movie or television expert to weigh in on the true nature of Gollum's character, Danisman said.

"I am very surprised by the decision of the judge," he added.

Read more: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gollum-experts-called-case-involving-turkeys-erdogan-n472806

Cheers

 

[red_flanders]

Let me remind everyone that Echoes doesn't speak on behalf of the Catholic Church, but on that of a crypto-fascist sect established by Marcel Lefebvre, who has been excommunicated in perpetuum. Not that it regards me, however, what you say about the Catholic Church as such has no bearing. Anybody that wants to read about Lefebvre's theological positions - the rejection of ecumenism in favor of Catholic exclusivism; the espousal of pragmatic religious tolerance instead of the principle of religious liberty; the rejection of collegiality within the Church in favor of strict Papal supremacy; opposition to the replacement of the Tridentine Mass - can be free to do so on their own.

"Lefebvre belonged to an identifiable strand of right-wing political and religious opinion in French society that originated among the defeated royalists after the 1789 French Revolution. Lefebvre's political and theological outlook mirrored that of a significant number of conservative members of French society under the French Third Republic (1870–1940). The Third Republic was reft by conflicts between the secular Left and the Catholic Right, with many individuals on both sides espousing distinctly radical positions (see, for example, the article on the famous Dreyfus affair). Thus it has been said that 'Lefebvre was... a man formed by the bitter hatreds that defined the battle lines in French society and culture from the French Revolution to the Vichy regime.'" Even Wikipedia knows this.

As a fanatical monarchist, France was ruined when modernism ushered forth in 1789; the Quattrocento was the last moment before the "great fall into religious sectarianism." With such a peurile view about lineage, a rejection of modernity, it's no wander Echoes has an affinity with the Islamic world. He is anachronism personified.

At any rate, Berlusconi, regardless of his affiliation with P2, enjoyed fine relations with the Vatican. Having lived through his era I know. Your theory of a Masonic conspiracy against Pope John Paul I, in connection with Licio Gelli, Calvi, Marcinkus and Sindona is well known. Books have been written about the topic, but the Vatican has covered the truth. Not that this matters in regards to Berlusconi, whose TV programs may have lead to massive Italian cultural atrophy, but Catholicism has always prayed upon popular ignorance. So Silvo paid them a favor! His trash is no more gravely inane than what the rest of the market driven world thrives upon though. What, though, is Free Masonry, if nothing else but a fringe occultist capitalist movement? It is thus little surprising that the Church of Rome would have so accomodated it during the Cold War.

No Turkey is America's problem, in so far as the war it conducts in Syria to destroy ISIL gets rather bogged down in the morass of having its major Nato partner supplying the enemy. Apart from this, I have made it clear, the US does its cause no service by its uncompromising alliance with Israel given the Palestinian debacle.

And just because you say so, Echoes, doesn't proove squat.

I asked a while back why anyone bothers responding to the drivel he puts out. Well this is the right response. Every time I read a post from Echoes I get an image of the fascist Austrian in The Sum of All Fears in my head. Frightening that such views exist.

 

[blutto]

....the Syrian oil connection....one view...maybe definitive maybe not but has enough points in it from other good sources to warrant a read...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oil produced from fields under the control of the Islamic State group is at the heart of a new investigation by al-Araby al-Jadeed. The black gold is extracted, transported and sold, providing the armed group with a vital financial lifeline.But who buys it? Who finances the murderous brutality that has taken over swathes of Iraq and Syria? How does it get from the ground to the petrol tank, and who profits along the way?The Islamic State group uses millions of dollars in oil revenues to expand and manage vast areas under its control, home to around five million civilians.IS sells Iraqi and Syrian oil for a very low price to Kurdish and Turkish smuggling networks and mafias, who label it and sell it on as barrels from the Kurdistan Regional Government.It is then most frequently transported from Turkey to Israel, via knowing or unknowing middlemen, according to al-Araby's investigation.The Islamic State group has told al-Araby that it did not intentionally sell oil to Israel, blaming agents along the route to international markets. -

See more at: http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/features/2015/11/26/raqqas-rockefellers-how-islamic-state-oil-flows-to-israel#sthash.Ch9g1dzg.dpuf

Cheers

 

[The Hitch]

Posting this great speech from Hillary Benn for the benefit of the terrorists apologists. Particularly the last 2 minutes.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/dec/03/hilary-benn-airstrikes-vote-speech-full-must-confront-isis-evil-video

IS are not fighting any kind of noble cause. They kill people for the being gay. They kill people to quench a thirst for blood. They kill children for being born into the wrong families.

As Benn says, they are Fascists, Racists, no different to Hitler and they hate all the values of democracy and liberty.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Posting this great speech from Hillary Benn for the benefit of the terrorists apologists. Particularly the last 2 minutes.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/dec/03/hilary-benn-airstrikes-vote-speech-full-must-confront-isis-evil-video

IS are not fighting any kind of noble cause. They kill people for the being gay. They kill people to quench a thirst for blood. They kill children for being born into the wrong families.

As Benn says, they are Fascists, Racists, no different to Hitler and they hate all the values of democracy and liberty.

I'm not saying don't fight ISIL, do fight ISIL, but I don't think air strikes are the best option. First, before the air strikes, get the ground troops into a larger collective that fights ISIL. This may take a month or two at best, and year at worst. After 2 or 3 months then stop, and then authorise air strikes. And also, I'm not sure how much British involvement can do. And the stream of money needs to be stopped, fast,something Cameron has failed to do. I fear also that mobs may be what ISIL want, for every civilian dead, two people join ISIL.

I don't know if I speak for everyone( against air strikes), but ISIL needs to be fought, but are air strikes right?

 

[Merckx index]

I basically agree with Brul, who posted just ahead of me. In response to Hitch:

Except that they aren't an easily identifiable state like Nazi Germany. There remain serious questions about what the bombing will accomplish. Even Cameron felt he had to address (and quite unsatisfactorily) the possibility that an attack in Britain would be made more likely following bombing in Syria. The issue is not whether ISIS should be opposed, it's how.

If, as Blutto's link indicates, most of their funding comes from the production of two oil fields, why aren't those fields destroyed? Britain is already bombing Iraq, where according to the link, one of the major oil fields is located. Why is that field still in production? Is the evidence for that field's role in supporting ISIS not good enough? Are there too many innocent civilians working there? Is it really not possible for the West, with all it's resources, to stop the flow of money to ISIS?

It's easy, easy, easy to stand up in a sheltered environment and exhort everyone to go to war with the bad guys--particularly when you're at an age when you aren't going to be one of the soldiers. It's hard, hard, hard to come up with an approach that actually works.

 

[python]

by listening aplenty i learned long ago, the more fiery a speech the more it tends to be a harmless and often useless piece of oratory (at best). not that the message is wrong, it's just that exercising muscles around one's mouth isn't what gets the job done.

very few people were/are both the superb orators and practical leaders of the Churchill size.

as to a workable anti-isil strategy, one needs to first sort out the west's priorities, then assign ranks to our enemies including a mutually agreed (i mean in the un) list of the true terrorist orgs. some uncomfortable, yet not really irreconcilable questions need to be answered:

- is tyrannical assad fighting for his very survival as dangerous to california or paris as is isil,
-why turkey lists some kurds actively fighting isil as terrorists and the united states NOT.
- why the us pretends that turkey has no role in smuggling the stolen oil
- is it really possible to achieve the west's best scenario w/o involving iran

and so on. and the fewer those fiery speeches, the better for the results

 

[Avoriaz]

Re:

Posting this great speech from Hillary Benn for the benefit of the terrorists apologists. Particularly the last 2 minutes.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/dec/03/hilary-benn-airstrikes-vote-speech-full-must-confront-isis-evil-video

IS are not fighting any kind of noble cause. They kill people for the being gay. They kill people to quench a thirst for blood. They kill children for being born into the wrong families.

As Benn says, they are Fascists, Racists, no different to Hitler and they hate all the values of democracy and liberty.

It was a good speech, and there were many good speeches from all sides of the argument yesterday. As an aside, Angus Robertson (SNP) would make a great game show host.

Now I am surprised that a clearly highly educated poster such as yourself sees the bomb/don't bomb as such a binary question. You must know that many of those who oppose "just" bombing ISIL aren't doing so because they somehow sympathise with terrorists, and are merely trolling. Fair enough. If David Cameron can do it, so can we.

A good group of countries are already dropping bombs all over Syria, but the expectation is that the UKs bombs are somehow friendlier and more accurate.

The point is, a war/battle isn't won by merely dropping bombs. This is just being seen to be doing something.

A real concern, and my real concern is: who are we fighting, who fights alongside us, and who do we want to fill that vacuum, and how popular will our choice of leadership be. As yet, I don't believe there is a plan for this. We can't even agree with our allies against ISIS. So, say we defeat ISIS we then fall out about who assumes the leading role in Syria. If we don't know ourselves and we don't know our enemy (we say it is ISIL yet we allow our NATO ally to trade oil?), then we win nothing.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

terrorists apologists

This is insulting and pretty dumb.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

terrorists apologists

This is insulting and pretty dumb.

Umm did you see the reactions of some people on here to the terrorist attacks?

At least one poster openly celebrated the hebdo attacks. Another argued that the terrorists are merely poor people who have no representation trying to get their voice heard. Another thought the terrorist should have chosen a stauncher American ally.

It's not like theres no precedence for that on the far wackjob wing of the American left, which is heavily overrepresented on the internet and on this forum. Their leader Michael Moore said al Qaeda are like the minute men of the American revolution. Ward Churchill said that wtc workers are legitimate targets 'little eichmans" one could go on. I've seen posts over the years on here backing these views.

I don't see what your issue is. Justifying terrorism is not terrorist apologism? What words should I use then?

Posting this great speech from Hillary Benn for the benefit of the terrorists apologists. Particularly the last 2 minutes.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/dec/03/hilary-benn-airstrikes-vote-speech-full-must-confront-isis-evil-video

IS are not fighting any kind of noble cause. They kill people for the being gay. They kill people to quench a thirst for blood. They kill children for being born into the wrong families.

As Benn says, they are Fascists, Racists, no different to Hitler and they hate all the values of democracy and liberty.

It was a good speech, and there were many good speeches from all sides of the argument yesterday. As an aside, Angus Robertson (SNP) would make a great game show host.

Now I am surprised that a clearly highly educated poster such as yourself sees the bomb/don't bomb as such a binary question. You must know that many of those who oppose "just" bombing ISIL aren't doing so because they somehow sympathise with terrorists, and are merely trolling. Fair enough. If David Cameron can do it, so can we.

A good group of countries are already dropping bombs all over Syria, but the expectation is that the UKs bombs are somehow friendlier and more accurate.

The point is, a war/battle isn't won by merely dropping bombs. This is just being seen to be doing something.

A real concern, and my real concern is: who are we fighting, who fights alongside us, and who do we want to fill that vacuum, and how popular will our choice of leadership be. As yet, I don't believe there is a plan for this. We can't even agree with our allies against ISIS. So, say we defeat ISIS we then fall out about who assumes the leading role in Syria. If we don't know ourselves and we don't know our enemy (we say it is ISIL yet we allow our NATO ally to trade oil?), then we win nothing.

I didn't say anything about bomb or not bomb.
I share the fears that military action on it's own could create more problems than solutions.

I was merely talking about benn's description of isis because some continue to think (in some cases wishfully) that they are some sort of revolutionary army fighting for the rights of the underprivileged. Benn in his last 2 minutes hits it right on the money. They are fascists. They kill people for the crime of being gay. Anyone who sees anything admirable in this group needs to seriously look in the mirror.

 

[Brullnux]

But anyway;
While the politics of Hilary are different to those of Tony, Hilary learn his trade as an orator from his father.

 

[ebandit]

.............for all the people of syria i'm sorry for what my government is doing.............

Mark L

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

But anyway;
While the politics of Hilary are different to those of Tony, Hilary learn his trade as an orator from his father.

Agreed. Both blessed with the gift of the gab.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

But anyway;
While the politics of Hilary are different to those of Tony, Hilary learn his trade as an orator from his father.

Agreed. Both blessed with the gift of the gab.

 

[blutto]

....just ran across the following....the timing is kinda interesting as are some of the way this has been played out....as in win a contentious election by in part by inflaming a conflict with the Kurds and in part by massively cheating in same election then on taking office do something against which to whip up nationalistic fervour...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"“Turkey’s new government took the reins on the same day the Russian jet was downed. And now the wily Prime Minister Davutoglu and the unwieldy President Erdogan are engaging in damage control and domestic mobilization, for the moment even dropping their favored rhetoric of Islamic solidarity and playing the nationalist card to the full. Even though the military action will no doubt lead to huge gains in domestic popularity, the economic consequences have already started to be felt, with Russia curbing the import of Turkish goods. This may indicate that the AKP-led government solely acted as NATO’s lackey, ignoring the realities on the ground and reveling in boisterous grandstanding.”

.....http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Why-Turkey-Stabbed-Russia-in-the-Back--20151126-0029.html

Cheers

 

[Amsterhammer]

A series of videos apparently leaked by the Russian Defense Ministry reveal the presence of Iranian F-14 and MiG -29 fighters in Syrian skies for the first time. They were shown by “The Aviationist,” Italian magazine, escorting heavy Russian bombers, including the Tupolev TU-160, the heaviest, fastest and most destructive bomber ever built, on missions no more than 150 km from Israel’s northern border.

The ageing F-14s, built in the 1970s by American aviation giant Grumman, were originally sold to Iran when the Shah was in power and taken over by the reorganized Iranian air force after the 1979 Islamic revolution. Upgraded many times, the F-14s now feature state-of-the-art avionics, weapons and navigation systems, procured byTehran despite the strict UN embargo on their sale to the Islamic Republic.

Dozens of these upgraded warplanes, upgraded with intelligence-collection and tracking systems, have begun operating in Syrian air space near the Israeli border, under the pretense of escorting the Russian bombers. Iranian eyes in the sky are therefore studying the frontier area and gather valuable intelligence on Israel’s air defenses. Normally, if Iranian warplanes had turned up in Syrian air space, the Israeli Air Force would have fought them off and shot them down, but by flying alongside Russian bombers they are protecting themselves against Israeli action.

http://www.debka.com/article/25034/First-Iranian-fighter-jets-over-Syria-alongside-Russian-bombers

This should turn 'interesting before too long. Ok, so the Russians have their super anti-aircraft missiles in Syria, just waiting for a Turkish plane to stray over the border, which the Turks will of course take great care not to do, as they contemplate just how badly they have *** themselves as a result of shooting down the Russian plane. Oops, got diverted...

...so on top of these sh!t hot missiles, we could now, theoretically at least, see Russian, Syrian, Iranian, American, British, French, Jordanian and UAE planes in action over Syria at the same time. What, in the name of all fucks that are holy, could possibly not go wrong?

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Posting this great speech from Hillary Benn for the benefit of the terrorists apologists. Particularly the last 2 minutes.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2015/dec/03/hilary-benn-airstrikes-vote-speech-full-must-confront-isis-evil-video

IS are not fighting any kind of noble cause. They kill people for the being gay. They kill people to quench a thirst for blood. They kill children for being born into the wrong families.

As Benn says, they are Fascists, Racists, no different to Hitler and they hate all the values of democracy and liberty.

I think any apologists need to talk to the Yazidis or what is left of them.

 

[python]

now that the uk entry into the syrian bombing frenzy truly signifies the beginning of the isis end, the mortal blow to the terrorism will be delivered...guess by who..yep, by the dutch bombers:

Pressure mounting on Dutch to join Syria air strikes
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/pressure-mounting-dutch-join-syria-air-strikes-402209573

if the bombastic, fiery speeches isn't exactly where the dutch excel, then showing the flag must be rushed before someone lumped them into a terrorism apologists camp for asking mission questions before stepping into the shyt...

@amsterhammer
as i noted before, the debkafile should be taken with a grain of salt. they are often the 1st to splash a real breaking news. they also provide a good source if one is interested in how a hot m.e. issue is viewed from the point of israeli security. but they also were shown to fabricate 'news'. that article on the iranian connection, imo, is a typical alarmist stuf. not that there are no plausible elements there. here's an arab, al jazeera article that presents the israeli-russian game from an opposite angle, as if they have become allies...

Putin and Netanyahu: Minds alike over Syrian skies
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/12/putin-netanyahu-minds-alike-syrian-skies-151203134525140.html

the reality is somewhere in between, as always, and it is extremely fluid...one thing is becoming more evident - diverse sources are reporting that the russians are getting ready to drastically expand their air operations in syria. it sure is to add to the mess the syrian sky is already.