World Politics

[ChrisE]

I am completely aware of the shanty towns - that is who moved to the park in the center of the city - they were told they now own land but there situation only changed as far as location.

As for why there are extreme differences - I can give a deductive answer at best. Culturally it is doubtful the families living in the side of the hill place the same value on education - I suspect they are more interested in finding food and not getting robbed (while at times looking for a way to rob the guy in the next shanty). I am not saying it is their fault, just that education is not part of their world for the most part. Obviously you do not believe that a middle class existed pre Chavez, probably because your contacts were with the wealthy and your eyes could see the poor - my contacts on the other hand have primarily been with the middle class, people who did not appreciate the corruption they saw but found Chavez to be far worse for their existence than the corrupt politicians he replaced. Quite frankly Chavez has no real interest in solving the problems of an extremely poor populous since that is his voter base. He continues to focus them on the boogie man in the media he has taken complete control over, the United States.

Yes, if the poor would just change their priorities from surviving to learning the abc's then all would be good.

Chavez has been elected several times. It's always a shock when democracy produces the results we don't want, then we scream corruption. Democracy must produce US worshiping leaders in other countries who just love the US model else we toss it aside as illegitimate. It's the "US way good. Non-US way bad. Scratch balls and turn on Rush Limbaugh" mindset lol.

It happened in Lebanon, VE, and will happen elsewhere unless we start looking in the mirror.

I have no solutions and I am not debating that with you, but I have yet to hear you deny Chavez was a reaction to the social conditions in that country. You kinda do by referring to his base, but that base is real. And surely you don't think he would get the same attention from the US media and politicians if he didn't have oil, and has not threatened to sell it in euros.

There are far worse places economically, socially, and politically in Africa, for example than VE. Can you concede that? If you do, then ask yourself why. Maybe you will conclude the same thing I do and start seeing the transparent actions towards that country.

 

[Anonymous]

Some of us believe that, though agreeing on that politically in the US is nearly impossible.

I hear you. This health care plan is going to kill all the old people above 70, and kill all the unborn children.

Then when cap and trade happens the entire US economy will die.

 

[Laszlo]

Regarding Ng's extradition;

I know a bit about the horror that Ng is said to participate in, and doubtless there is more than enough evidence that satisfies his guilt of those crimes, and there is no form of punishment that can extract a semblance of justice for his victims or their families. That said, a nation should not be able to pick and choose which of it's laws it should observe; it was quite a twisted bit that allowed him to be extradited. Beyond the United States, there other nations, autocracies and such that would love to fabricate crimes that would force it's expatriate dissenters home to face "justice".

 

[ChrisE]

I hear you. This health care plan is going to kill all the old people above 70, and kill all the unborn children.

Then when cap and trade happens the entire US economy will die.

You're drunk!

 

[CentralCaliBike]

There are far worse places economically, socially, and politically in Africa, for example than VE. Can you concede that? If you do, then ask yourself why. Maybe you will conclude the same thing I do and start seeing the transparent actions towards that country.

I am not disputing that he came to power because of the obviously corrupt government - it is interesting that he followed the same path of Hitler, first a failed coup attempt, then speeches to the larger (though poorer classes) about how he would take from the bad rich people and give to the saintly poor - classic rise of a dictator. Unfortunately we have politicians taking the step to power in this country by promising to take from the evil wealthy and give to the poor that have no jobs, and little education.

I also will not disagree that oil production is one reason our nation has him on radar - of course his stated goal of overthrowing the United States is another concern. Our nation should be interested in insuring that business interests are protected around the world - that is one of the foundational roles of government.

As for the uneducated - we spend a lot of money attempting to educate children in this country. I deal with a number of individuals who have had an opportunity for education but had no interest, cutting class and ditching school do get involved in gangs and drugs as soon as they hit middle school. I heard a mother at my children's school complaining to the teachers about homework since it might interfere with their child's sports activities, that it was the teacher's responsibility to teach at school and ot send anything home. I suspect that education was not a family value in this particular case and many others. The response to this problem has been to throw money at the educational system without regard for the fact that money does not buy education as a priority at the family table.

 

[fatandfast]

I hear you. This health care plan is going to kill all the old people above 70, and kill all the unborn children.

Then when cap and trade happens the entire US economy will die.

Keep the windows rolled up on the mothership. Stimulus cash right now at @42,000 dollars for every person. The US didn't have to turn it's lights off or tell those over 70 the end is near. Health care, the kind that all our big trading partners have didn't bring on a new doom. Unborn? I can only guess you are saying no federal money for family planning. When a mother sells her 5 year old, isn't it 5 and a half or 6 years too late. Didn't she need free options like a weekly appointment on a couch, or the ability to receive a tablet or condom for free so that years later a 5 year old wasn't killed after years of torture. I would have gladly coughed up 42k to save a 5 year old from prostitution and then death. 42,000 would pay for full coverage for everybody already, our priority is to try and hold on to history we don't have. When health insurance was mainstream people resisted at first on the same basis, we made it this far without it so it's un-necessary. They were right and so are you. We can't go any farther without it, some people think if they protest loud enough the world will freeze, we can all speak English, Islam will go back to sleep, China and India will tell their peoples that cars and clean water are out of the question. American savings rates are on the rise and many are marching in the streets about job,lifestyle security. Maybe our days of buying our way into happiness have changed ever so slightly. Madoff and the bankers tarnished just a little the shine on the temple of me. Canada has no death list,Germany is still making cars, England has a paid police force and medical care. France and Belgium still have plenty of old people trust me. Don't be afraid..and think of how much faster treatment for anger issues will be available. Let people who sell cars,ice cream,beer,mow lawns,was cars do their work and stop figuring out how to integrate heath care into the price of everything on their own. Take it out at the cash register in sales (consumption tax)

 

[CentralCaliBike]

When a mother sells her 5 year old, isn't it 5 and a half or 6 years too late. Didn't she need free options like a weekly appointment on a couch, or the ability to receive a tablet or condom for free so that years later a 5 year old wasn't killed after years of torture. I would have gladly coughed up 42k to save a 5 year old from prostitution and then death.

I personally do not have 42K to pay for this, but if I did I would not be so naive to believe that momma would actually use the condom in the first place - neither is it likely she would consider abortion.

I have had too many cases come across my desk where the parent wanted the federal dollars that the "new" child provided, it did not matter how the child was treated as long as those dollars kept coming in.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I know a bit about the horror that Ng is said to participate in, and doubtless there is more than enough evidence that satisfies his guilt of those crimes, and there is no form of punishment that can extract a semblance of justice for his victims or their families.

The victims did not all die - they will continue to be victims of this horror for generations in the future (sort of a ripple effect).

 

[ChrisE]

I am not disputing that he came to power because of the obviously corrupt government - it is interesting that he followed the same path of Hitler, first a failed coup attempt, then speeches to the larger (though poorer classes) about how he would take from the bad rich people and give to the saintly poor - classic rise of a dictator. Unfortunately we have politicians taking the step to power in this country by promising to take from the evil wealthy and give to the poor that have no jobs, and little education.

I also will not disagree that oil production is one reason our nation has him on radar - of course his stated goal of overthrowing the United States is another concern. Our nation should be interested in insuring that business interests are protected around the world - that is one of the foundational roles of government.

As for the uneducated - we spend a lot of money attempting to educate children in this country. I deal with a number of individuals who have had an opportunity for education but had no interest, cutting class and ditching school do get involved in gangs and drugs as soon as they hit middle school. I heard a mother at my children's school complaining to the teachers about homework since it might interfere with their child's sports activities, that it was the teacher's responsibility to teach at school and ot send anything home. I suspect that education was not a family value in this particular case and many others. The response to this problem has been to throw money at the educational system without regard for the fact that money does not buy education as a priority at the family table.

Chavez came to power as a result of the difference between classes. If that was a result of govt. corruption only (I doubt it), then so be it. Also, I stated above it is unknown if Chavez's or the US rhetoric about "overthrowing" was the chicken or the egg. Who knows or cares?

You belittle your argument by comparing this to Hitler IMO. I won't even address that strawman. Again, you either believe in democracy or you don't. No in betweens.

I have yet to see my taxes raised, and I have yet to see "threats" by US politicians to soak the wealthy. This may seem mind boggling, though. Some people actually think that those that have gained the most from society pay the most. It's the basis of the tax code in the US with progressive % rates based upon income. Argument about a flat tax is another argument. Tax rates on the wealthy will never approach pre-Reagan, and 2% or so rise in taxes on the wealthy will have zero impact on their standard of living or the economy. Clinton proved that in the 90's.

There are always anecdotes about people abusing the system, no matter what it is. I am sure what happened in your child's school is true, but I am equally sure that there are many other's in your child's school that don't act the same way and actually benefit from the structure in place.

You cannot legislate or force ideals IMO. You just have to manage the ones that take advantage of the system while not loosing sight of what is important. That is the role of democratically elected govt. IMO.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

You belittle your argument by comparing this to Hitler IMO. I won't even address that strawman. Again, you either believe in democracy or you don't. No in betweens.

I do not look at Hitler as a straw-man - he attempted a coup then legally took power during the economic collapse of the 1930s. Hitler's name epitomizes evil, and therefore you claim it cannot be compared to Chavez. I believe that you may change this opinion over the next decade.

 

[Anonymous]

You anywhere near Paso Robles?

Guys, guys!
You really ought to get a room...grab a couple of bottles whilst floating past a few of your favorite vineyards...settle into a nice comfy suite, enjoy a long hot shower and whisper those sweet nothings of adam smith and the invisible hand to one another!

 

[fatandfast]

I personally do not have 42K to pay for this, but if I did I would not be so naive to believe that momma would actually use the condom in the first place - neither is it likely she would consider abortion.

I have had too many cases come across my desk where the parent wanted the federal dollars that the "new" child provided, it did not matter how the child was treated as long as those dollars kept coming in.

I live in NYC, women have children to increase their household income. It's a given it happens anywhere you have welfare. Abortion, Birth control injections,condoms, sterilization,counseling should all be available to people for free. I am not in a rush to the bottom, but most of the arguments are about the part of society that people feel can't do it themselves. People hate people on welfare. Fine there are people who don't and never will work who will come of age and breed, I get it, there is no solution in civilized culture. The crisis that looms in America is not about how to provide more care for the poor, it's how to have an apples to apples comparison with other Western countries. We know what happens to you in the 3rd world when you don't have food,shelter or medical care, You die and turn to dust. Is everything so jaded that you know what every person will say or do when presented with a choice? $42000 is what has been spent( borrowed) so far. This is like gay marriage, You pay the utilities,air fare,medical,retirement,wages,ect,ect and on and on,so some politicians can debate it,to no end. If you look at the number of people impacted(gay people who want the misery of marriage) we could have said go ahead do it and saved 10's of billions of dollars. Same with health care. I see you and many others are ever more insulted because you think the government has feathered the nest of the crack mom enough. Why should some good for nothing get more out of your back pocket, I agree and understand. We are not talking about the lowest 10% that needs the most help. We are talking about part time teachers,students, workers who need heath care and can't get it from their part time situation. The crack mom who goes back to school to turn her life around is faced with a choices none of them good and none easy. The second dumbest thing the US does is make it so --cking hard for people to go to school. Give the 42k to every crack kid from the ghetto,your numbers will pan out 98% will have blown the money in a week, My numbers will pan out also 2% will do something useful with the chance they are given. 1 may go to school,1 buy a food cart,1 send their kid to school.we can't just do squat.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Give the 42k to every crack kid from the ghetto,your numbers will pan out 98% will have blown the money in a week, My numbers will pan out also 2% will do something useful with the chance they are given. 1 may go to school,1 buy a food cart,1 send their kid to school.we can't just do squat.

The fact is we do not have 42k to give out - whether it turns one person around or not. What many do not see, and do not know, is there are already programs out there for the 2% (it may actually be higher) that are interested in bettering their lives - programs that put food on a table and educate those how want it. The people who are not covered by the programs are the middle class, which is ok as long as they are not taxed to the point they cannot do for themselves.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Give the 42k to every crack kid from the ghetto,your numbers will pan out 98% will have blown the money in a week, My numbers will pan out also 2% will do something useful with the chance they are given.

While I recognize your numbers here are symbolic I have to point out that you are suggesting that spending 21 million dollars for each life turned around (per year) is fiscally responsible.

 

[Anonymous]

While I recognize your numbers here are symbolic I have to point out that you are suggesting that spending 21 million dollars for each life turned around (per year) is fiscally responsible.

huh? now, how do you get those numbers? helping folks out who are in a bad way costs 21 million per year per person...????

huh?

 

[fatandfast]

huh? now, how do you get those numbers? helping folks out who are in a bad way costs 21 million per year per person...????

huh?

My fault, the fact that he went on the poor people attack mode got my math off as well as CenCal. 819 billion spent and what do we have to show for it? was my only point. Bush had the idea that if you put a @600 dollar check in everybody"s hand that they would spend it..stimulate. Maybe Obama should follow his lead and give me 45k of the taxes I have paid so I can buy one of those double wheeled snow/idarod bikes to ride. I want Ti. or he can give it to AIG or Goldman Sachs. GS promoted 270 employees that played a big roll in the companies stability during this economic crisis. Average wage increase to be @150k per year above old base salary.80 billion is what is expected to be given out as bonuses within the financial sector. I don't know if they deserve it,I just know I wish the government was not in the banking biz. I could use some TARP myself. Super rich or super poor people are not the problem, those of us that got ch!t for our 819 billion are to blame.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

huh? now, how do you get those numbers? helping folks out who are in a bad way costs 21 million per year per person...????

huh?

Please make an attempt to read what I wrote - I am not saying 24 million (and recognize the 2 percent claim is completely lacking of a factual basis) but that argument, under those assumed facts, results in a cost of 21 million in spending, for that potential 2 percent,this past year.

 

[ChrisE]

I do not look at Hitler as a straw-man - he attempted a coup then legally took power during the economic collapse of the 1930s. Hitler's name epitomizes evil, and therefore you claim it cannot be compared to Chavez. I believe that you may change this opinion over the next decade.

It's been an interesting discussion but I think this is where I get off. No way I can continue this discussion in good faith with somebody whose sense of proportion is so out of whack. It is really not worth my time trying to reason with somebody with a position such as yours. No offense.

I will remember this, though. When Chavez attacks all of his neighbors and executes 6 million people of a certain religious faith then I will concede you are right. Take care.

 

[Anonymous]

"Please make an attempt to read what I wrote"

jesus christ...you are a ****ing ***...enough said...there is no reasoning with right wing nutjobs...quote all the figures and studies you want...you are still an ***...

 

[fatandfast]

Please make an attempt to read what I wrote - I am not saying 24 million (and recogbize the 2 percent claim is completely lacking of a factual basis) but that argument, under those assumed facts, results in a cost of 21 million in spending, for that potential 2 percent,this past year.

819 billion and I still have no internal 14 speed double wheeled snow bike. that's what I want for stimulus and if Chavez gives it to me, I will sing his praises. Bikes not bombs, or 2 less 5000 dollar bombs and 1 cool bike for me.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

My fault, the fact that he went on the poor people attack mode got my math off as well as CenCal.

I would have qualified as "poor" in the past with a family income well under the poverty line and I never expect to be wealthy. I know that I was not wealthy when Obama was elected - he told me that when he said he would not raise taxes on the middle class, and that would be families earning less than $250,000; however, he keeps lowering that amount and it very likely that by the time this health care program is in place I will have become extraordinarily wealthy by his standards (even though my income is shrinking).

Certainly I do not have animosity towards the poor (although I do towards a culture that expects to get something without working for it). I will say that my family never received a welfare check or food stamps (the one time my father asked for help the government said he had made too much money during the year - it did not matter that a thief took off with the money that he had earned over the past month at the time.

I do completely agree with you about sending the large amounts of stimulus to the middle class instead of the failed businesses - I believe that is not the route that is best for the country but would have done a lot more to stimulate the economy than the places the funds seemed to have gone.

 

[Bala Verde]

No verbal abuse, and for those who don't understand, that means no personal insults or swearing.

It's a good thread, don't let it go down the drain.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

I will remember this, though. When Chavez attacks all of his neighbors and executes 6 million people of a certain religious faith then I will concede you are right. Take care.

Not sure about the six million but it is likely that if he retains power he will be attacking his neighbors.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

819 billion and I still have no internal 14 speed double wheeled snow bike. that's what I want for stimulus and if Chavez gives it to me, I will sing his praises. Bikes not bombs, or 2 less 5000 dollar bombs and 1 cool bike for me.

Don't cave and vote for Chavez unless he promises me a new cross bike.

 

[Anonymous]

No verbal abuse, and for those who don't understand, that means no personal insults or swearing.

It's a good thread, don't let it go down the drain.

apologies...