World Politics

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Aug 5, 2009
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SafeBet said:
Considering voting operations end tomorrow, I would not :D


And I'd say there's little to no chance he'll be elected anyway. Centre-left is the clear favorite here. There might be a very volatile situation with no clear majority in the senate though. That would probably lead to alliances between centre-left and Monti, for the happiness of the EU.

This was a good opportunity to end Berlusconi's career as a politician. But if he's above 20% (which is appalling, but realistic) he just won't go away.

Some comedian, can't remember his name is expected to get quite a few votes. It seems there is no shortage of those in Italy. It seems the rest of the world don't want Belusconi back either.
 
Sep 2, 2011
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movingtarget said:
Some comedian, can't remember his name is expected to get quite a few votes. It seems there is no shortage of those in Italy. It seems the rest of the world don't want Belusconi back either.

It's Grillo. And he's expected to be around 20%, a massive percentage for a party which didn't even exist 5 years ago.

He was a good comedian, actually. Completely lost the sense of reality though. He's got a very short program, easy to understand for the people. There's a bit of communism, some environmentalism, economical degrowth, anti-EU feelings and even some fascist elements in it.
His main focus is fighting against the privileges of politicians, the so called casta (caste). Bear in mind that there's always been a widespread anti-political culture in our country. Politicians have been perceived as thieves, lazy asses, inepts, ecc, so it's no surprise that even people who weren't voting until a couple of years ago are voting Grillo this time.

Percentage of voters was very low yesterday. It's been snowing a lot in various areas of the country so that could've been a factor.
 
As per the Italian vote, party politics, as we know it, is dead unfortunately. I say unfortunately for democracy, because the people being voted for aren't the ones holding the real power: its’ all international finance, the banks, the IMF, and so forth, yet nobody votes for them. No more is this the case than with nations like Italy placed underfoot by the speculators of big finance. In Italy, furethermore, one also has to take into consideration the various criminal organizations, which hold entire regions and from which practically none are completely uneffected. Yet with all the mantras calling for austerity measures by the guru of finance Monti, few words were spent on seriously destroying the mafias, which rob from the state some 30 billion anually in unpaid taxes and are estimated to generate up to a third of Italy's GNP. This is why I'm difident before one such as he and wonder about the sanity of the banks and markets.

Politics (on the planetary level) didn't know how to manage globalization, but under the neoliberal impetus allowed the markets to dictate policy. By contrast it was the markets that needed to be regulated and have a political class (again at the global level) provide rules to a game few actually profit from, but to which everyone's destiny is bound. No more is this the case than today for nations like Italy, Greece, Spain and so forth.

This though would have required a coordinated effort, beyond myopic self-interest and a willfully circumscribed vision, one unconstrained by the usual determinants of domestic policy and international competition: in short, an international legislation that meets the needs and praxis of a global economy in the broadest social interests.

Obviously this is stuff of a visionary and futuristic nature, which can hardly even be contemplated, let alone realized, in today's world. In the meantime, therefore, we get the erosion of democracy in favor of technocratic solutions (here Mario Monti comes immediately to mind) propelled by the great financial institutions to meet the demands they (not voters) place on society and the State. It’s within this spectrum that the Italian election is colored by an increasing disillusionment with the traditional political parties and is at once so rife with demagoguery. This also explains how so many can be enticed by the latest Cola di Rienzo of the piazzas, Bepe Grillo. All I can say is that if Berlusconi wins again, I will seriously consider leaving, whereas if Grillo wins the country is ****ed; because the comedian from Genova is excellent at telling the system and its political figure heads to ****-off (Vaffa!), as he ceaselessly yells in the mike before the sizable gatherings, though not so bravo when it comes to realistically articluating a reform program of actual substance. He has such a facile capacity to denounce and deride; though one wonders, once in power, how Mr. Grillo plans to govern: which is to say through the same political alliances and politicking he so vocally condemns, but that such a situation unavoidably demands. The moment he were to have to actually govern, would be the moment his house of cards comes crashing down. I can’t understand why this isn’t obvious to all his supporters. Besides he has the air of one that doesn't allow for discent, refuses to engage directly his political opponents in real democratic debate, whereas from the safety of the public stage launches his anathemas like so many a dictator we have seen in the past. Not surprisingly, Grillo isn't viewed with hostility by Italian fascists and those whose worldview is colored with neofascist sentiments, like so many football fans (ultras) of the stadium's various northern curves.

Now the fact that my girlfriend's mom will vote for that Pied Piper and indefatigable liar, Berlusconi (sic!) and that her brother and sister-in-law are diehard Grillo fans (in this showman's case "supporter" isn't really the proper term), is another indication of the opinion I read in yesterday's newspaper that half the voting population here are imbeciles. Unfortunately the only viable options are the neoliberal, Monti (earstwhile techoncrat) and the center-left Bersani, who, however, wouldn't have the numbers in parliament and the senate to govern, which effectively means he would fall within months. Plus he's not attractive to the markets, nor Merkel by some accounts.

The markets want Monti, though he has little hope of winning and even if he did would need to form a coalition that includes two center-right parties, Fini and Casini, and Bersani on the left, the antagonism between right and left in Italy making this an impossible mission.

Conclusion: uno schifo!
 
Sep 22, 2012
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auscyclefan94 said:
Senator Brandis: "He (Swan) had no brains then (@ University) and he has no brains now" :D

Classic!

Yes the first quality I would look for in a person to run the country is the ability to cleverly insult others.
Both sides are as bad as the other in this flaw they all seem to have. Is having sensible debate with clear expression of ideas without resorting to insults really that difficult? Or perhaps the system with gets these types of people there is just broken.
 
Sep 2, 2011
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I'm almost ashamed to say this, but after the first projections it's not looking pretty at all. Berlusconi might even get the majority in the senate.

Sad.
 
SafeBet said:
I'm almost ashamed to say this, but after the first projections it's not looking pretty at all. Berlusconi might even get the majority in the senate.

Sad.

Elezioni politiche 2013, urne chiuse. Testa a testa con centrosinistra in vantaggio. Ingroia e Giannino senza quorum. Il Pd: "Se questi dati si confermano bisogna tornare a votare". Euforia del popolo grillino sul web. Secondo i primi calcoli con questi numeri chi vince al Senato non va oltre i 121 seggi (per la maggioranza ne occorrono 158). A metà dello spoglio 9 regioni a testa per Centrosinistra e Centrodestra, in sette M5S primo partito.

Watch for the markets to hammer Italy in the ensuing days.

A bunch of old people stupid enough to still be disposed to give Berlusconi their vote, deserve exactly what's coming to them from beyond their myopic worldview. I can only say how sorry I am for the young generation that is subjected to such stupidity and has been made to pay the grave price of having their futures denied them.

Then there are the Grillini who think of nothing but wrecking the machine, while having no idea as to how the 5 Stelle movement plans to contribute effectively to rebuilding something better, considering all the factions it would be dealing with and trying to appease. Then anybody (Grillo) who shouts from the top of his voice that party politics are dead horrifies me, because that implies a unique voice giving orders - that is a dictatorship, however masked under the veil of a "popular movement."
 
Sep 2, 2011
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Berlusconi will get the majority in the senate.
Centre left with the majority in the lower house.
Grillo with massive percentages in both.

Basically it's a country split in three. Either someone finds an ally (not probable) or we get new elections in a couple of months.
 
Sep 30, 2011
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rhubs,was that from La republicca?...and about the election I think of it this way :p Every country gets a president she deserves or Every president gets the country she/he deserves :D
 
Sep 2, 2011
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Zam_Olyas said:
rhubs,was that from La republicca?...and about the election I think of it this way :p Every country gets a president she deserves or Every president gets the country she/he deserves :D

Pretty sure Ryanair italian page was pretty busy today.
 
Mar 24, 2011
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Zam_Olyas said:
rhubs,was that from La republicca?...and about the election I think of it this way :p Every country gets a president she deserves or Every president gets the country she/he deserves :D
true :eek:
Once I get my grades I'm out of this country.
 
Sep 2, 2011
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rhubroma said:
That was my conclusion.

Leave, get out, while there's still time.

Povera Italia.

Point is: not everybody is in the position to do so. You might have a family needing you to be here for instance. Or you might not have the skills to find a decent job outside of this country.

And still, being an honest person, you keep thinking this can't happen again. And after 20 years, it's still happening.
 
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Oct 30, 2011
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auscyclefan94 said:
What a load of rubbish. Have you ever heard of classical liberalism, libertarianism or even in some respects, conservatism? Those ideologies are traditionally on the right of the spectrum and support freedom. You can not have actual social freedom within a society if you don't economic freedom. Those two ideals are axiomatic. Rather hard to take someone seriously who thinks socialists are really those who are pro-freedom fighters. They aren't, especially modern day socialists. Did you actually see what those socialists did at the Wilders meeting? That is not freedom.

Most of those leftists are those who want to reduce individual rights and in turn want to expand the control of the state. Give me a break. You are completely deluded.

Yet what use is it giving people the right to do things they are structurally unable to do? Isaiah Berlin's concepts of positive and negative liberty (the terms are not meant to imply one is good and the other is bad) give us a framework to examine the balancing act we must conduct. While a radical libertarian system gives people freedom from having to do certain things like pay taxes, the end result is that it restricts others freedom to do certain things, like eat food. Contrastingly a communist system does not give people freedom from control over exactly what they buy and how they live their lives, but given the same economy will ensure that more people have the freedom of basic quality of life. To most people it is clear that the best position lies between these two extremes. The question is then: where?
 
Caruut said:
Yet what use is it giving people the right to do things they are structurally unable to do? Isaiah Berlin's concepts of positive and negative liberty (the terms are not meant to imply one is good and the other is bad) give us a framework to examine the balancing act we must conduct. While a radical libertarian system gives people freedom from having to do certain things like pay taxes, the end result is that it restricts others freedom to do certain things, like eat food. Contrastingly a communist system does not give people freedom from control over exactly what they buy and how they live their lives, but given the same economy will ensure that more people have the freedom of basic quality of life. To most people it is clear that the best position lies between these two extremes. The question is then: where?

And this is the problem of modern global politics.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Caruut said:
Yet what use is it giving people the right to do things they are structurally unable to do? Isaiah Berlin's concepts of positive and negative liberty (the terms are not meant to imply one is good and the other is bad) give us a framework to examine the balancing act we must conduct. While a radical libertarian system gives people freedom from having to do certain things like pay taxes, the end result is that it restricts others freedom to do certain things, like eat food. Contrastingly a communist system does not give people freedom from control over exactly what they buy and how they live their lives, but given the same economy will ensure that more people have the freedom of basic quality of life. To most people it is clear that the best position lies between these two extremes. The question is then: where?
You make an important point. I guess where each of us fit on the scale is, as rhubroma says, the problem with modern politics but also politics since day dot. The position on that scale defines our ideologies.
 
May 29, 2011
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auscyclefan94 said:
You make an important point. I guess where each of us fit on the scale is, as rhubroma says, the problem with modern politics but also politics since day dot. The position on that scale defines our ideologies.
that's.... textbook marxism. good lad.
 
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