World Politics

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Don't worry about Israel to much because Iran will take care of that problem in a few years.

That'll render that whole area of the world unlivable. I hope like hell it never happens, but I am not that naive.

 

[Hugh Januss]

That'll render that whole area of the world unlivable. I hope like hell it never happens, but I am not that naive.

Maybe that takes care of Global Warming/Climate Change, once we can't get close enough to drill for oil for 50 years or so.

 

[BroDeal]

blah blah blah

The publication of testimony by Israeli soldiers detailing atrocities in which they participated or that they witnessed has lent further weight to the growing demands for an international war crimes tribunal to investigate the three-week Israeli siege of the Gaza Strip last December and January.

The testimony, published Thursday and Friday in the Israeli dailies Haaretz and Maariv, came from a group of soldiers and officers participating in a military training course at the Oranim Academic College in Tivon in February. The director of the program, Danny Zamir, invited them to discuss their experiences in Gaza. He recounted that he was "shocked" by what he heard, including reports of random shootings of unarmed civilians and generalized contempt for Palestinian life, and reported the matter to the Israeli Defense Forces command.

Now, weeks later, and with no indication that the IDF has carried out any serious investigation, the publication of sections of the discussion's transcript has triggered an uproar in Israel. The Israeli government has long promoted the myth that its army's conduct is based on a strict code of ethics and blamed the massive Palestinian casualties in Gaza—more than 1,400 killed—on Hamas, claiming that its fighters used the civilian population as "human shields."

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak reiterated this position in a radio interview Friday, declaring, "We have the most moral army in the world."

The atrocities testimony grabbed headlines in Israel at precisely the moment in which prime minister-designate Benjamin Netanyahu, of the right-wing Likud Party, is maneuvering to bring Barak, a leader in the Israeli Labor Party, into his cabinet, with the aim of giving his government a more "moderate" cast. The testimony, however, provides yet more evidence that Barak, who as defense minister directed the attack on Gaza, is guilty of war crimes.

The stories told by the soldiers who participated in Israel's Operation Cast Lead, however, provide a very different picture of the "morality" of the IDF. Several of them expressed frustration and remorse over the killing spree in Gaza.

A squad commander identified as "Aviv" testified on the orders his unit was given in occupying houses in the densely populated center of Gaza City. "We were supposed to go in with an armored personnel carrier called an Achzarit [literally, "cruel"] to burst through the lower door, to start shooting inside and then ... I call this murder ... in effect, we were supposed to go up floor by floor, and any person we identified—we were supposed to shoot."

Senior officers, he continued, argued that such actions were justified because anyone who had not fled the area was, by definition, a "terrorist."

"I didn't really understand," the squad commander continued. "On the one hand they don't really have anywhere to flee to, but on the other hand they're telling us they hadn't fled so it's their fault."

After he convinced his commanders to allow him to warn occupants of the houses to evacuate or be killed, he confronted opposition from soldiers in his unit. He recalled them telling him, "We need to murder any person who's in there," and "Any person who's in Gaza is a terrorist."

He said that the general attitude among the troops was that "inside Gaza you are allowed to do anything you want, to break down doors of houses for no reason other than it's cool ... to write ‘death to Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can."

Aviv recounted an incident in which a company commander spotted an old woman walking down the road. "In the end, he sent people on the roof, to take her out with their weapons ... I simply felt it was murder in cold blood."

Interrupted by the course director Zamir, who asked why she was shot, Aviv continued: "That's what is so nice, supposedly, about Gaza: You see a person on a road, walking along a path. He doesn't have to be with a weapon, you don't have to identify him with anything and you can just shoot him. With us it was an old woman, on whom I didn't see any weapon. The order was to take the person out, that woman, the moment you see her."

Another soldier, "Ram," who was with an operations company in the Givati Brigade, told of occupying a house and holding the family that lived there prisoner for several days before being ordered to release them.

"There was a sharpshooters' position on the roof," he recalled. "The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go, and it was okay and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders." Ram added: "I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it ... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way."

The same soldier also testified on how the military prepared troops for the indiscriminate killing in Gaza by bringing in army rabbis who presented the siege of Gaza as a "religious mission."

"Their message was very clear," he said. "We are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle, God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land. This was the main message, and the whole sense many soldiers had in this operation was of a religious war."

The reporter who broke the story in Haaretz reported Friday that the military command had responded with an exercise in "damage control" that centered on an attempt to "witch hunt" the school director Zamir and intimidate the soldiers who had spoken out.

Haaretz carried another story Friday indicative of the "morality" of the IDF. It reported on T-shirts designed by a fabric-printing shop in Tel Aviv for Israeli army units, each with their own unit slogan and design.

"A T-shirt for infantry snipers bears the inscription ‘Better use Durex,' [referring to a brand of condoms], next to a picture of a dead Palestinian baby, with his weeping mother and a teddy bear beside him," according to the report. "A sharpshooter's T-shirt from the Givati Brigade's Shaked battalion shows a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bull's-eye superimposed on her belly, with the slogan, in English, ‘1 shot, 2 kills.'"

The reporter explained that the designs and slogans were chosen by soldiers after completing their training, but approved by their commanding officers.

On Thursday, as the transcripts of the soldiers' testimony was being published in Israel, the United Nations human rights investigator for the Palestinian territories issued a report declaring that Israel's siege of the densely populated Gaza Strip "would seem to constitute a war crime of the gravest magnitude under international law."

Richard Falk, UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, described the Israeli campaign as a "massive assault on a densely populated urbanized setting" in which Gaza's entire civilian population had been subjected to "an inhumane form of warfare that kills, maims and inflicts mental harm."

Falk's report listed among Israel's war crimes the "targeting of schools, mosques and ambulances" and the use of white phosphorus shells (which cause horrific burns) in densely populated neighborhoods.

Falk added that the war on Gaza was not legally justified and therefore could constitute a "crime against peace," the principal charge against the Nazi leaders tried at Nuremberg.

In his report, Falk cited newly updated figures for casualties from the 22-day Gaza operation issued by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. The human rights group has compiled a list, including names, with a total of 1,417 victims. Among those killed, the rights group reports, were 926 civilians—including 313 children and 116 women—255 police officers and 236 Palestinian fighters. The total number of Israelis killed in the siege was 13, several of them by "friendly fire."

Given that Israel—like the United States—has refused to sign the Rome accords setting up the International Criminal Court, Falk suggested that the United Nations set up a special tribunal to consider charges.

Meanwhile, a group of 16 judges and legal scholars, many of them former members of tribunals formed to hear charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity in the former Yugoslavia, Darfur, Rwanda and East Timor, issued an open letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and the UN Security Council Monday entitled "Find the truth about Gaza war." The letter called for the formation of an international commission to investigate violations of international humanitarian law "by both sides."

The letter declared, "The events in Gaza have shocked us to the core," and called for the commission to "provide recommendations as to the appropriate prosecution of those responsible for gross violations of the law."

 

[BroDeal]

UN resolutions are good unless they support Israel, in which case they are bad. UN resolutions do not have to be complied with unless they are against Israel.

Competely backasswards. Any country that does not abide by UN resolutions and opposes the U.S. needs to be invaded. Any country that does not abide by UN resolutions and is an ally of the U.S. gets a pass.

And, for that matter, the war we have going with Al Qaeda and the rest of the fringe Muslim groups is entirely based on hatred (not that we do not have those with similar attitudes in this side of the ocean). It does not matter whether we pull out all of the troops out or not, these groups plan to continue to take the fight to us, starting with the troops in the middle east then coming this direction when they feel they won that battle.

It certainly is based on hatred: Christian and Jewish hatred of muslims. Give the arabs their human rights and there won't be a problem anymore. Stop the crimes against humanity being committed against Palestinians and nearly all the antipathy of muslims against the West disappears. Stop supporting Middle East dictatorships and if their societies do not work out then they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[Anonymous]

Competely backasswards. Any country that does not abide by UN resolutions and opposes the U.S. needs to be invaded. Any country that does not abide by UN resolutions and is an ally of the U.S. gets a pass.



It certainly is based on hatred: Christian and Jewish hatred of muslims. Give the arabs their human rights and there won't be a problem anymore. Stop the crimes against humanity being committed against Palestinians and nearly all the antipathy of muslims against the West disappears. Stop supporting Middle East dictatorships and if their societies do not work out then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Except that illegal war in Iraq, right? Remind me again how many UN resolutions Hussein blew off?

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Meanwhile, a group of 16 judges and legal scholars, many of them former members of tribunals formed to hear charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity in the former Yugoslavia, Darfur, Rwanda and East Timor, issued an open letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and the UN Security Council Monday entitled "Find the truth about Gaza war." The letter called for the formation of an international commission to investigate violations of international humanitarian law "by both sides."

Civilian casualties from the "Second Intifada": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_Second_Intifada#Israeli_non-combatant_casualties

That would be 418 Israeli civilians killed mostly by suicide bombings where they were clearly the intended target.

The Palestinians suffered 165 civilians killed, from the appearance of the individual incidents it appears that civilians were not the primary targets (or there would likely have been far larger amounts of casualties).

Again, there is no good solution, but to lay the blame on Israel and hold out the Palestinians as the victims suggests an extreme bias.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

It certainly is based on hatred: Christian and Jewish hatred of muslims. Give the arabs their human rights and there won't be a problem anymore. Stop the crimes against humanity being committed against Palestinians and nearly all the antipathy of muslims against the West disappears. Stop supporting Middle East dictatorships and if their societies do not work out then they have no one to blame but themselves.

What do you suggest happen to the Israelis in the middle east? If fanatical Muslims are so peaceful, why has Iran and Iraq been at each other's throat for so long? How about the Kurds? And the Armenians?

Not seeing the pie in the sky here.

 

[BroDeal]

Civilian casualties from the "Second Intifada": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_Second_Intifada#Israeli_non-combatant_casualties

That would be 418 Israeli civilians killed mostly by suicide bombings where they were clearly the intended target.

The Palestinians suffered 165 civilians killed, from the appearance of the individual incidents it appears that civilians were not the primary targets (or there would likely have been far larger amounts of casualties).

The UN's head of humanitarian affairs, John Holmes, says work has started in Gaza on marking and removing unexploded ordnance, removing the rubble and starting to repair the infrastructure.

In the two days since the ceasefire took hold in Gaza, he says an additional one hundred and fourteen bodies have been recovered from underneath the rubble.
John Holmes

"So the latest figures for casualties are: Palestinian deaths -- 1,314 of whom 412 were children and a hundred were women, and then injured 5,300 -- 1,855 of whom were children and 795 were women."

On the Israeli side, Mr. Holmes said the casualties figures were unchanged. Nine UN staff and contracted workers were killed and 11 were injured.

--

Again your lack of concern for Palestinians living under a brutal occupation shows an extreme bias.

 

[BroDeal]

What do you suggest happen to the Israelis in the middle east?

How about one state where everyone has equal rights, Palestinians, Christians, and Jews; and where Palestinians have the right of return just like jews do? Sounds fair to me.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

How about one state where everyone has equal rights, Palestinians, Christians, and Jews; and where Palestinians have the right of return just like jews do? Sounds fair to me.

Sounds fair but the Hamas and PLO has made it clear that is unacceptable. Then there is Syria and Iraq who made it clear they are not willing to agree either.

Not sure I would feel safe living in Israel under that kind threat if I was Israeli. Besides who gets the developed properties?

 

[BroDeal]

Sounds fair but the Hamas and PLO has made it clear that is unacceptable. Then there is Syria and Iraq who made it clear they are not willing to agree either.

Not sure I would feel safe living in Israel under that kind threat if I was Israeli. Besides who gets the developed properties?

The Israelis have made it clear that it is not acceptable because it would change the "jewish nature" of their state. They would rather keep the Palestinians in ghettos without rights.

Neither side wants it, but it is the just solution. The UN and the U.S. should force it, just like South Africa was forced to do the right thing. It might take a generation for old feelings to fade, but the country (and the world) would be eventually be better off.

The Syrians only want their land back. They should get it. So should the Lebanese.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

The Israelis have made it clear that it is not acceptable because it would change the "jewish nature" of their state. They would rather keep the Palestinians in ghettos without rights.

Neither side wants it, but it is the just solution. The UN and the U.S. should force it, just like South Africa was forced to do the right thing. It might take a generation for old feelings to fade, but the country (and the world) would be eventually be better off.

The Syrians only want their land back. They should get it. So should the Lebanese.

Did you know that there are Arab Isrealis?

As for the Syrians - they lost their land when they attacked Israel - perhaps they should have thought of the consequences of losing before attacking.

Now, something else to think about - how well did it work for Lebanon - used to be the Monte Carlo of the eastern Med, now not so tourist friendly thanks to Hamas and a couple of other terrorist organization. In that country the Christians (who had been the majority before losing on the birthing contest and to Palestinian immigrants) have been in a hot and cold civil war since 1976.

Then there is Iraq and Iran - the Shah was removed and the country did not get a lot more peaceful. Saddam in Iraw, when not fighting the Iranians (and minority Shi'ite Muslims) was not willing to allow the Kurds a peaceful existence on their ancestral territories.

When you look at Muslim based powers, the Armenians could tell you about their history were 2 million were removed from their homes and marched into the desert to die (I am sure this is ancient history and meaningless). Again, not a great track record of civil coexistence with opposing religious beliefs.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Neither side wants it, but it is the just solution. The UN and the U.S. should force it, just like South Africa was forced to do the right thing. It might take a generation for old feelings to fade, but the country (and the world) would be eventually be better off.

The UN tried to work it out a few decades ago - did not work then, not going to work now.

Did you bother reading any of the history linked in the preceding pages, because if you did you must have missed the fact that UN has never been successful in this area in keeping the peace - and never will.

 

[BroDeal]

Did you know that there are Arab Isrealis?

And they face discrimination every day.

As for the Syrians - they lost their land when they attacked Israel - perhaps they should have thought of the consequences of losing before attacking.

The Israelis took over the Golan in a surprise attack on Syria in 1967. The UN does not recognize Israeli ownership.

Now, something else to think about - how well did it work for Lebanon - used to be the Monte Carlo of the eastern Med, now not so tourist friendly thanks to Hamas and a couple of other terrorist organization.

Yeah, used to be a nice place until the Israelis invaded.

In that country the Christians (who had been the majority before losing on the birthing contest and to Palestinian immigrants) have been in a hot and cold civil war since 1976.

You mean the Palestinian refugees who are not allowed to return to their homes?

When you look at Muslim based powers, the Armenians could tell you about their history were 2 million were removed from their homes and marched into the desert to die (I am sure this is ancient history and meaningless). Again, not a great track record of civil coexistence with opposing religious beliefs.

What the hell do the Armenians have to to with Palestine...other than way for you to justify brutalizing muslims by blaming all muslims for something that happened nearly a hundred years ago? Even more strangely, your example involves the turks, who now have a largely secular state that is a member of NATO..

 

[BroDeal]

The UN tried to work it out a few decades ago - did not work then, not going to work now.

The UN has never tried to work it out except by passing toothless resolutions. Impose a South African -style embargo that does not get lifted until all Palestinian get equal rights and the problem will get solved.

 

[BroDeal]

GM was run into the ground by the UAW.

Maybe in your fantasy world. Here in the real world the labor cost that goes into a GM car is about $2400, which is roughly 8% of the total vehicle cost. GM did not go bankrupt because of a few percent difference in production costs. They went bankrupt because they made crappy cars relative to the competition and have been doing so for forty years. They treated their customers with contempt. It has been a total management failure. They have steadily retreated for decades, gradually ceding different market segments to the imports until they were left at an Alamo of their own making, with the company reliant on trucks and large SUVs.

John DeLorean's book, "On a Clear Day You Can See GM," written in the early 70's, shows how incompetent GM's management was; and the situation never got better. Sure the UAW is greedy and their members lazy, but the union is not the reason why GM failed.

Ford brought in management from outside the auto industry, and they are the last man standing.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

The UN has never tried to work it out except by passing toothless resolutions. Impose a South African -style embargo that does not get lifted until all Palestinian get equal rights and the problem will get solved.

And why are Hamas and the PLO killing each other?

 

[BroDeal]

And why are Hamas and the PLO killing each other?

In prisons the inmates fight each other for control of the cell block.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

In prisons the inmates fight each other for control of the cell block.

But these are the two major Palestinian political parties - the same people who would be insuring the safety of the Israeli citizens under your grand idea. Not sure how they are up to the task, especially since their stated goal is to kill any Israeli who refuses to leave the middle east.

 

[BroDeal]

But these are the two major Palestinian political parties - the same people who would be insuring the safety of the Israeli citizens under your grand idea. Not sure how they are up to the task, especially since their stated goal is to kill any Israeli who refuses to leave the middle east.

They are no different than the segment of the Zionists calling for a final solution to get rid of the Palestinians. There will a bunch of violent incidents at first.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

They are no different than the segment of the Zionists calling for a final solution to get rid of the Palestinians. There will a bunch of violent incidents at first.

But the group you are talking about is not a political force anywhere.

 

[auscyclefan94]

you yanks need to get your man obama to agree on the ETS, why should the aussies agree to it if USA and china won't agree. Obama sending more troops over says that america have voted in another 'war ravaged hack'. We need people in government who know about the environment and the economy, why is what is doing damage to this world.

 

[BroDeal]

But the group you are talking about is not a political force anywhere.

That has not stopped them from killing people.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

They are no different than the segment of the Zionists calling for a final solution to get rid of the Palestinians. There will a bunch of violent incidents at first.

There will never be a Palestinian state to the exclusion of Israel. As long as that is your ideal you will be unhappy. There has been violence on both sides to the point where those in power in Israel are not willing to put themselves at the mercy of those who have made it clear about their goals (and I do not believe they should anyway). Since this is not going to happen - ever - I figure I am going to move on. You have no interest in considering this subject from the Israeli standpoint, and I do not trust the good nature of the religious and political leaders of the Palestinians based on their stated goals and past actions.

 

[BroDeal]

you yanks need to get your man obama to agree on the ETS, why should the aussies agree to it if USA and china won't agree. Obama sending more troops over says that america have voted in another 'war ravaged hack'. We need people in government who know about the environment and the economy, why is what is doing damage to this world.

Obama is a tool of corporate interests. This became obvious as soon as he began appointing former members of the Clinton administration to his staff. So don't get your hopes up.