World Politics

[Ferminal]

CPI is what it is, doesn't tell you much about overall "cost of living". If you're going to use that you at least need to look at it in terms of real wages. In any case CPI has been very stable in Australia for almost two decades (barring the 2008 acceleration) and you're never really going to see it explode above 3%. So politicians who in 2013 are shouting about "cost of living" can't be basing that on CPI especially when you consider the several quarters recently where it's been closer to 2%.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

CPI is what it is, doesn't tell you much about overall "cost of living". If you're going to use that you at least need to look at it in terms of real wages. In any case CPI has been very stable in Australia for almost two decades (barring the 2008 acceleration) and you're never really going to see it explode above 3%. So politicians who in 2013 are shouting about "cost of living" can't be basing that on CPI especially when you consider the several quarters recently where it's been closer to 2%.

Most people who complain about cost of living are people who have migrated here.Australian seemed surprised when I tell them it is more expensive then London. Obviously, exchange rate has a lot to do with this. Once you start earning in AUD it is not so bad. However, as in the UK house price inflation looks to be soaring. From what I can see interest rates are not *that* low but there is a huge incentive for people to buy second (or more homes) due to the tax breaks offered.

I am assuming that exports are dying here because of cost the the dollar makes it prohibitively expensive for people to buy goods (that are not resource related).

This all sounds very much like the UK a few years ago. The banking sector seems to be better regulated here so that is something. And in fact that is probably saved you from the Credit Crunch (GFC) more than anything the politicians say they did.

 

[AndyMMT]

CPI is what it is, doesn't tell you much about overall "cost of living". If you're going to use that you at least need to look at it in terms of real wages. In any case CPI has been very stable in Australia for almost two decades (barring the 2008 acceleration) and you're never really going to see it explode above 3%. So politicians who in 2013 are shouting about "cost of living" can't be basing that on CPI especially when you consider the several quarters recently where it's been closer to 2%.

Agree it is real wages that matter and in any case inflation is a very subjective thing and poorly understood. Hits the less well off more than the wealthy. It's a deflationary trending world in reality most inflation is being caused by self imposed problems taxes/tuition fees/privatised utilities monopoly pricing & some commodity linked mainly oil caused kind of ironically by ETFs being sold as inflation hedging instruments to investers (as protection against the big bad central banks garbage) but which ironically caus said inflation.

 

[python]

so was putin's offer to eliminate syrian chem weapons a stroke of genius or a miscalculation (like this 'think tanker') argues ?

my read is that the author of the article is an uncomplicated 'believer' or a downright halfwit, perhaps both.

i see, without digging too deep, that obama, if not checkmated, is being outfoxed by a much smarter politician. the reason's are self-evident...

-obama, if he ever considered it seriously, can't now execute a military strike for weeks if ever. If he goes to congress again, provided the russians are playing for time, he will be defeated, as the MPs will accuse him of 'not giving peace a chance'...if he leans to striking w/o the congressional approval, he will never be able to justify it by going to congress in the first place, thus striking w/o the congress Ok is highly unlikely.
-if he decides to work with the russians, however difficult it might be, he is risking to lose whatever reputation he had with moderate rebels thus dispiriting their fighting morale.
- if he plays hard ball with the russians by giving them deadlines, he is destined to fail because he needs a credible military strike option which he, as explained above, does not have. besides, putin has proven being deaf when one talks ultimatums.
- if the us try to work through the un security council, they again will be facing 'nyet', unless the strike option is removed.

...thus obama, despite all his dreadful toys, has no viable options but playing a second fiddle to this evil vlad.

i welcome any feedback where i got it wrong.

 

[ToreBear]

so was putin's offer to eliminate syrian chem weapons a stroke of genius or a miscalculation (like this 'think tanker') argues ?

my read is that the author of the article is an uncomplicated 'believer' or a downright halfwit, perhaps both.

i see, without digging too deep, that obama, if not checkmated, is being outfoxed by a much smarter politician. the reason's are self-evident...

-obama, if he ever considered it seriously, can't now execute a military strike for weeks if ever. If he goes to congress again, provided the russians are playing for time, he will be defeated, as the MPs will accuse him of 'not giving peace a chance'...if he leans to striking w/o the congressional approval, he will never be able to justify it by going to congress in the first place, thus striking w/o the congress Ok is highly unlikely.
-if he decides to work with the russians, however difficult it might be, he is risking to lose whatever reputation he had with moderate rebels thus dispiriting their fighting morale.
- if he plays hard ball with the russians by giving them deadlines, he is destined to fail because he needs a credible military strike option which he, as explained above, does not have. besides, putin has proven being deaf when one talks ultimatums.
- if the us try to work through the un security council, they again will be facing 'nyet', unless the strike option is removed.

...thus obama, despite all his dreadful toys, has no viable options but playing a second fiddle to this evil vlad.

i welcome any feedback where i got it wrong.

I think you are missing the key point of Obamas goal for any military strike: To convince Assad that using chemical weapons are a bad idea.

He can't use them if he has promised the Russians to give them up.

As things are now, Putin and Russia is invested in removing the weapons from Syria. This might take time, but the use by Assad of CW while this goes on would make Putin look powerless and weak.

David Owen mentioned that getting the Russians to propose something like this on a program on Al Jazeraa a week or two ago, could be a way forward, so I don't see why a lot of other diplomats can't also have come up with this idea.

The media likes to create winners and losers and generally love the easy story one can spin out of a zero sum game. Things rarely are that simple. The world is more about common interests, and degrees of agreement.

If Putin wins with Assad ditching his CW without Obama having to bomb, I don't see how this is a loss for Obama. I think it's a big win for both of them.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Barack wanted to bomb Syria because the israelis and saudis told him to.

 

[python]

I think you are missing the key point of Obamas goal for any military strike: To convince Assad that using chemical weapons are a bad idea.

He can't use them if he has promised the Russians to give them up.

As things are now, Putin and Russia is invested in removing the weapons from Syria. This might take time, but the use by Assad of CW while this goes on would make Putin look powerless and weak.

David Owen mentioned that getting the Russians to propose something like this on a program on Al Jazeraa a week or two ago, could be a way forward, so I don't see why a lot of other diplomats can't also have come up with this idea.

The media likes to create winners and losers and generally love the easy story one can spin out of a zero sum game. Things rarely are that simple. The world is more about common interests, and degrees of agreement.

If Putin wins with Assad ditching his CW without Obama having to bomb, I don't see how this is a loss for Obama. I think it's a big win for both of them.

i think you went in the direction i did not entertain. my post above was about a specific article i linked to and the author's opinion that putin's initiative re the syrian chemical weapons removal was a miscalculation...all i did was to show the opposite. the evil antidemocrat from the backward east, not only saved obama from the embarrassing defeat in congress (which most were predicting), but also showed the bomb-minded 'leader of the free world', who refused to meet the 'despot' the constructive way, - showed him the way everyone seem to have embraced.

 

[python]

Syrian rebel groups sought sarin gas material, Turkish prosecutors say

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-syrian-rebels-sarin-gas-20130913,0,4224285.story

Turkish prosecutors indict Syrian rebels for seeking chemical weapons
http://rt.com/news/turkey-syria-chemical-weapons-850/

A court indictment by the Turkish prosecutors into the alleged use of chemical weapons by the Syrian rebels has once again highlighted fears this week that sarin toxic gas was used by the opposition and not the Assad government.

The prosecutor in the Turkish city of Adana has issued a 132-page indictment, alleging that six men of the al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front and Ahrar ash-Sham tried to seek out chemicals with the intent to produce the nerve agent, sarin gas, a number of Turkish publications reported.

 

[Galic Ho]

This is awful: http://www.zdnet.com/au/australian-...lement-internet-filter-by-default-7000020270/

And it has swung my vote. I was going to vote for the Liberal candidate for the House of Representatives, but in light of this, it will have to be Labor.

You have got to be fraking kidding!

It is one box you either check yes OR no for when you sign up for a new telco broadband plan.

Just like the UK has. But you live in Liverpool, infamous Labor territory.

Another young kid who didn't know what they were talking about and followed the status quo. Did you have fun last weekend? You want to know about broadband and what should have been done by Labor, be sure to ask. They've burnt SO much money it isn't funny.

 

[thrawn]

You have got to be fraking kidding!

It is one box you either check yes OR no for when you sign up for a new telco broadband plan.

Just like the UK has. But you live in Liverpool, infamous Labor territory.

Another young kid who didn't know what they were talking about and followed the status quo. Did you have fun last weekend? You want to know about broadband and what should have been done by Labor, be sure to ask. They've burnt SO much money it isn't funny.

The NBN was a great policy from Labor, they've just failed to implement it properly. Part of the problem was the hung parliament, where as part of the negotiations Labor agreed to roll out the NBN to rural areas before city areas. This obviously meant that less customers would sign on, meaning less income generation, therefore running over budget. The coalition's policy is a joke.

 

[darwin553]

The NBN was a great policy from Labor, they've just failed to implement it properly. Part of the problem was the hung parliament, where as part of the negotiations Labor agreed to roll out the NBN to rural areas before city areas. This obviously meant that less customers would sign on, meaning less income generation, therefore running over budget. The coalition's policy is a joke.

hmm - seems to have been a common problem with a lot of labor policies over the last 6 years

 

[Galic Ho]

The NBN was a great policy from Labor, they've just failed to implement it properly. Part of the problem was the hung parliament, where as part of the negotiations Labor agreed to roll out the NBN to rural areas before city areas. This obviously meant that less customers would sign on, meaning less income generation, therefore running over budget. The coalition's policy is a joke.

So $40+ billion for an outdated broadband infrastructure that won't be delivered by 2017, where the average cost per job in 2009 was $250K and where Treasury figures aren't available (yes the number is now supposed to be as high as $96 billion) is a GOOD THING?

Everyone I know, who actually studied or worked in IT, knows the deal. The office space for the NBN in Melbourne is the DEAREST per metre squared in Australia by a factor of 40%. That is Labor. They signed a contract for 30 years. Sounds legit and smart right? Laying cable...using chemicals associated with asbestos. Paying people $3K a week to lay simple cabling. At the exchange end...forgetting to put in the BEST products which are now DEFUNCT. Yeah, great plan! Wise move.

Or how about ignoring population dynamics. We mostly live on the coast. I live within 150km of the centre of Sydney. Using that as a radius, within that enclosed area there is about 35% of the countries population. I will get FIXED WIRELESS under Labor. Bathurst, one of the OLDEST places in Australia won't get fibre. You're smoking crack champ and full of it. The NBN is a massive disaster and it all comes down to Labor. If they knew what they were doing they'd have rung the South Koreans and asked for their expertise...you know the country implementing a Gigabit network. What do we expect to get...100Mbs down with maybe, just maybe 20-40Mbs up! WOW! You could get that in Japan for US $60 a month in 2008. Actually you could get faster.

When the request for tender went out, Telstra put in a bid around a max of $15 billion. Labor who wanted to own their own telco, told Telstra to F$&K off. 8 other Telcos, mostly smaller ISPs (can't remember if Optus was with them) also put in a tender. They were also told to go F#%K themselves. Labor's initial cost blew out to $23-6 billion under the NBN. Then $30 odd billion and finally into the mid $40 billion range. How much are they paying Telstra to access the services tunnels Telstra OWN? An undisclosed figure said to be over $10 billion. Note the price for Telstra's tender. Oh and champ...word is Telstra have been laying their own fibre. They're just waiting for the NBN to pay them and then they'll start using their own. Double source of revenue.

It's simple competition. The govt had a chance to ENCOURAGE it and create a market where prices drop and services improve. They ruined that for generations. Thanks to people like you who don't understand technology nor the minute details of macroeconomics. That is your typical Labor voter. Oh and the rich part is they say the Coalitions plan is crap! It's the only chance to save some money. Typical Labor ponzi scheme. Jobs for the boys and use tax payer money to fund your buddies. Zero balance. Thanks for screwing Australian broadband over thrawn and anyone else who voted Labor. You don't know what you're talking about.

Like I said...the simple solution was to ask the South Korean govt what their communication minister was doing. Do note, the guy is in his mid 30s and a technical genius with communication tech. He knew what he was doing. Australia...yeah we just burn money and laugh at the smart guys. Clever country...well we did vote Labor out. Suck on it.

The worst part of all this is the young kids. The labor voters who think broadband was better under Labor. I said back in 2009 what was EXACTLY wrong with the whole thing. People still buy the BS excuse that Labor would increase net speeds. Wrong, the market naturally does that. We overpaid for an inferior product. FACT. For $20 something billion, we could EASILY have gotten a Gigabit network backbone by 2015. Easily. No chance now. All the young kids, who think they need more bandwidth, bought the lie. They could have had FAR MORE and we'd have improved to be almost on par with the worlds best. FAIL. We just burnt money. Same story as usual in this country with Labor. They have no clue.

 

[movingtarget]

So $40+ billion for an outdated broadband infrastructure that won't be delivered by 2017, where the average cost per job in 2009 was $250K and where Treasury figures aren't available (yes the number is now supposed to be as high as $96 billion) is a GOOD THING?

Everyone I know, who actually studied or worked in IT, knows the deal. The office space for the NBN in Melbourne is the DEAREST per metre squared in Australia by a factor of 40%. That is Labor. They signed a contract for 30 years. Sounds legit and smart right? Laying cable...using chemicals associated with asbestos. Paying people $3K a week to lay simple cabling. At the exchange end...forgetting to put in the BEST products which are now DEFUNCT. Yeah, great plan! Wise move.

Or how about ignoring population dynamics. We mostly live on the coast. I live within 150km of the centre of Sydney. Using that as a radius, within that enclosed area there is about 35% of the countries population. I will get FIXED WIRELESS under Labor. Bathurst, one of the OLDEST places in Australia won't get fibre. You're smoking crack champ and full of it. The NBN is a massive disaster and it all comes down to Labor. If they knew what they were doing they'd have rung the South Koreans and asked for their expertise...you know the country implementing a Gigabit network. What do we expect to get...100Mbs down with maybe, just maybe 20-40Mbs up! WOW! You could get that in Japan for US $60 a month in 2008. Actually you could get faster.

When the request for tender went out, Telstra put in a bid around a max of $15 billion. Labor who wanted to own their own telco, told Telstra to F$&K off. 8 other Telcos, mostly smaller ISPs (can't remember if Optus was with them) also put in a tender. They were also told to go F#%K themselves. Labor's initial cost blew out to $23-6 billion under the NBN. Then $30 odd billion and finally into the mid $40 billion range. How much are they paying Telstra to access the services tunnels Telstra OWN? An undisclosed figure said to be over $10 billion. Note the price for Telstra's tender. Oh and champ...word is Telstra have been laying their own fibre. They're just waiting for the NBN to pay them and then they'll start using their own. Double source of revenue.

It's simple competition. The govt had a chance to ENCOURAGE it and create a market where prices drop and services improve. They ruined that for generations. Thanks to people like you who don't understand technology nor the minute details of macroeconomics. That is your typical Labor voter. Oh and the rich part is they say the Coalitions plan is crap! It's the only chance to save some money. Typical Labor ponzi scheme. Jobs for the boys and use tax payer money to fund your buddies. Zero balance. Thanks for screwing Australian broadband over thrawn and anyone else who voted Labor. You don't know what you're talking about.

Like I said...the simple solution was to ask the South Korean govt what their communication minister was doing. Do note, the guy is in his mid 30s and a technical genius with communication tech. He knew what he was doing. Australia...yeah we just burn money and laugh at the smart guys. Clever country...well we did vote Labor out. Suck on it.

The worst part of all this is the young kids. The labor voters who think broadband was better under Labor. I said back in 2009 what was EXACTLY wrong with the whole thing. People still buy the BS excuse that Labor would increase net speeds. Wrong, the market naturally does that. We overpaid for an inferior product. FACT. For $20 something billion, we could EASILY have gotten a Gigabit network backbone by 2015. Easily. No chance now. All the young kids, who think they need more bandwidth, bought the lie. They could have had FAR MORE and we'd have improved to be almost on par with the worlds best. FAIL. We just burnt money. Same story as usual in this country with Labor. They have no clue.

Just another Labor mess. Pink Batts, School building scheme and others and now more hold ups with the asbestos problem which was known about years ago re NBN.

 

[darwin553]

I don't know what's worse - Labor's performance over the last 6 years or the fact that I might have a similar interest in politics as Galic Ho has!

 

[Galic Ho]

Just another Labor mess. Pink Batts, School building scheme and others and now more hold ups with the asbestos problem which was known about years ago re NBN.

It will take some time to fix this crap up. Need I mention the moronic idea that was the carbon tax? Mining companies out negotiated the Labor govt on that one to. Labor were the most incompetent cohort our nation has ever seen and yet, Conroy received an International award for being Communications Minister because of the NBN. Swan won the World's best Treasurer award for consecutive years and he needs to take his shoes and socks off to do basic arithmetic.

But the worst part, was all the hatred on social media after last weekend. So many Labor voters losing the plot. Not all, but some. Their words were vile and disgusting. That was the saddest part of the election. Promise and some hope return and a select group verbally sought to bash the majority.

I don't know what's worse - Labor's performance over the last 6 years or the fact that I might have a similar interest in politics as Galic Ho has!

Coalition. Coalition by a landslide. I still can't get over the coalition winning 89 seats myself. Oh it HAD to be that number. That impresses me more than anything.

At least we agree on something. You don't live in Griffith do you? Rudd territory?

 

[Galic Ho]

Just another Labor mess. Pink Batts, School building scheme and others and now more hold ups with the asbestos problem which was known about years ago re NBN.

One of the local schools, which my aunt works at, well my brother mentioned it the other week. We talked about the NBN too...I brought him up to speed. He doesn't vote Labor, but still had no clue about the NBN.

Regarding the local schools that received a new hall. The one my aunt works at cost $1.5 million. My brother's mates dad, a 30 year builder, said what it should have cost. Ironically it was roughly what I said....$250K tops. Yet it was 6 times more and took forever to complete. Literally the better part of a year. Was a two month job tops.

Yet all I heard two weeks back and last week was Labor voting parents claiming no money would be spent on their kids. Correction, no money will be shoved down the crapper. This crap keeps up, will give me an incentive to move to Queensland. Better weather, better voters, better location and no darn daylight saving. Living in a Labor loving town is well; crap. Thankfully the other voting towns have larger populations where I live so the seat I am in didn't go Labor.

 

[Alphabet]

You have got to be fraking kidding!

It is one box you either check yes OR no for when you sign up for a new telco broadband plan.

Just like the UK has. But you live in Liverpool, infamous Labor territory.

Another young kid who didn't know what they were talking about and followed the status quo. Did you have fun last weekend? You want to know about broadband and what should have been done by Labor, be sure to ask. They've burnt SO much money it isn't funny.

I live in the electorate of Hughes, which borders Liverpool's Werriwa electorate. Hughes has been Liberal since 1996 and in this election, the Liberal candidate retained his seat with an overwhelmingly dominant 61% of the vote. Pretty much my entire life, I've had a Liberal MP representing my family and our neighbours and I'm not a person that's inclined to vote for Labor because of my background.

Once I was told that this policy was a mistake and not at all reflective of the intentions of the Liberal Party (didn't Turnbull make a statement?), I changed my mind and went with Liberal for the lower house.

I don't really care either way about the NBN. It was never going to affect my vote. Yes it would be nice to have faster internet (not that it's exactly sluggish at the moment- behind the average developed world speed, but still it's not unusably slow), but is that really a priority for the nation right now?

Internet censorship is the one thing I remain completely opposed to (with the exception of things like child porn). The internet is the only medium in the world of the modern nanny state where people can still exchange ideas without significant interference from busybodies with their "won't you think of the children!" rubbish. Yes, I'm aware that this isn't 1991 and the internet isn't the Wild West where you can say and do what you please, but I'm extremely uncomfortable with this sort of thing. Measures taken to protect the 'ethics and morals' of a nation is the same sort of Maoist style repression that an ostensibly free country like Australia should not be involved in. Filtering out 'objectionable content' is so open to manipulation. Sure, it'll start out innocent enough- protecting children by making it harder to access adult material, but sooner or later, 'objectionable content' will evolve to encompass everything that the government disagrees with.

Kids are going to be exposed to sex, irrespective of internet censorship. All they have to do is tune into SBS on a Friday evening or go for a stroll through Kings Cross.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Public Servants getting marched out of the door in Canberra is making me happy. Let's hope this trend of a public service department a day is closed for a while. So much waste, it would be just brilliant to take a butcher's knife to the public service.

Best News of day is that Tim Flannery has lost his job at the Climate Commission.

 

[Ferminal]

Can't wait until I get a PS job and start wasting all your money.

 

[movingtarget]

Public Servants getting marched out of the door in Canberra is making me happy. Let's hope this trend of a public service department a day is closed for a while. So much waste, it would be just brilliant to take a butcher's knife to the public service.

Best News of day is that Tim Flannery has lost his job at the Climate Commission.

As long as it's the right ones including excessive amounts of managers. The wrong cuts will mean a cut in services which won't make anyone happy.

 

[Echoes]

(Jewish) French liar at it again ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heS-9-GrYdA

 

[python]

i am amazed that given the number of german users on the forum, there was not a single post (!) dedicated to angela merkel's win today moreover, the lack of any reaction from other/any european(s) is mind-boggling because today's germany is almost certainly more important to europeans than the us.

the outstanding woman is easily one of the greatest female political leaders of all times.

besides, i find it a healthy sign, that most germans don't care about her east german roots.

indeed, germany has turned the corner for good !

 

[Galic Ho]

I live in the electorate of Hughes, which borders Liverpool's Werriwa electorate. Hughes has been Liberal since 1996 and in this election, the Liberal candidate retained his seat with an overwhelmingly dominant 61% of the vote. Pretty much my entire life, I've had a Liberal MP representing my family and our neighbours and I'm not a person that's inclined to vote for Labor because of my background.

Once I was told that this policy was a mistake and not at all reflective of the intentions of the Liberal Party (didn't Turnbull make a statement?), I changed my mind and went with Liberal for the lower house.

I don't really care either way about the NBN. It was never going to affect my vote. Yes it would be nice to have faster internet (not that it's exactly sluggish at the moment- behind the average developed world speed, but still it's not unusably slow), but is that really a priority for the nation right now?

Internet censorship is the one thing I remain completely opposed to (with the exception of things like child porn). The internet is the only medium in the world of the modern nanny state where people can still exchange ideas without significant interference from busybodies with their "won't you think of the children!" rubbish. Yes, I'm aware that this isn't 1991 and the internet isn't the Wild West where you can say and do what you please, but I'm extremely uncomfortable with this sort of thing. Measures taken to protect the 'ethics and morals' of a nation is the same sort of Maoist style repression that an ostensibly free country like Australia should not be involved in. Filtering out 'objectionable content' is so open to manipulation. Sure, it'll start out innocent enough- protecting children by making it harder to access adult material, but sooner or later, 'objectionable content' will evolve to encompass everything that the government disagrees with.

Kids are going to be exposed to sex, irrespective of internet censorship. All they have to do is tune into SBS on a Friday evening or go for a stroll through Kings Cross.

The internet filter was the idea of Chairman Rudd. You're 19 right...so I understand if you've forgotten. At least you live in a decent seat. My apologies for the assumption you vote Labor. Where I live, 75% of people do. The kids are all brainwashed by mummy, daddy and their high school teachers to vote Labor. Stand up to them and answer their questions and they run off crying. Also, every single one of them, even the ones a decade older than you, *****ed about broadband. Especially the men. They literally refuse to accept reality. They stuffed the Australian public over.

You might have missed this today:

http://www.theage.com.au/business/entire-nbn-board-resigns-20130922-2u835.html

Malcolm Turnbull, the man almost every Labor voter wants to head the Coalition, has called the bluff of the entire board of directors for the NBN. Major contracts will have to renegotiated and a full forensic audit. Oh yay!! Now we find who handed money to their BFFs from whatever Union. That's right, Labor's preferred Liberal party leader has said their work is $H1TE! That's because it is.

ACF94 I am with you. I love seeing heads roll from useless public servant jobs. Jobs that are completely unnecessary. Tim Flannery and his quack psuedo science Climate Change group are GONE and now the NBN mob are pretty much down the gurgler too. Oh happy days!

 

[Echoes]

Nobody cares about the German elections because German elections like every elections in Europe are just fools' traps. The two main candidate would've led the same policy. Same for the Green's/pedophiles and many other minor parties.

Merkel does not have the reality of power. The power is at the EU commission, and Nato, with Obama behind.

Greatest political leader of all time, my a*rse.

 

[python]

no one called merkel the greatest political leader of all times, but it's hardly a surprise that reading comprehension and ignorance go hand in had...particularly when one's favourite reference body part is a cerebral conduit for the said ignorance. oh, well