World Politics

[Bavarianrider]

Why Germany Doesn't Want Sanctions Against Russia, in Two Charts

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116836/why-germany-doesnt-want-sanction-russia-invading-ukraine

i kinda suspected that germany's position will be different form, say poland's. but this article and the recent statements by frank-walter steinmeier about the mistakes made during the eu-ukraine negotiations, appear to mean symbolic sanctions

add this to the increasingly assertive german foreign policy, and it may smell that the us may find itself barking alone.

clearly, angela and frank-walter read our bavarianrider and foxybrown

If they 'd have any backbone they'd simply say that sanctions of any kind are no option whatsoever.
It's so sad to see that 100 years after the outbreak of world war one and 75 years after the outbreak of world war 2 german politicans and media are yet again riding a Anti russian agenda and firing tension between the countries. If we were to learn one lesson from history it's that Germany and Russia should stand side by side and never ever be involved in a major conflict. Yet German politicans still have no pride whatsoever and do whatever the USA want them to do. If the USA were to push hard, German politicans will fall and agree to sanctions, i've no doubt about that.

 

[python]

If they 'd have any backbone they'd simply say that sanctions of any kind are no option whatsoever.
It's so sad to see that 100 years after the outbreak of world war one and 75 years after the outbreak of world war 2 german politicans and media are yet again riding a Anti russian agenda and firing tension between the countries. If we were to learn one lesson from history it's that Germany and Russia should stand side by side and never ever be involved in a major conflict. Yet German politicans still have no pride whatsoever and do whatever the USA want them to do. If the USA were to push hard, German politicans will fall and agree to sanctions, i've no doubt about that.

to the bolded bit...i hear you, but i don't think it is about the lack of pride.
germany, after a long dance with france, has just become a very tenuous de facto leader of europe. leading an inherent mess like the 28-nation complex union can not be done by strong demarcates and actions. in addition, germany being lead by a diverse shaky coalition does not predispose merkel to strong, decisive actions. it has to be small steps ! also, dont forget that many in europe still harbour old fears and suspicions when germany gets assertive too quickly.

so, personally, i feel encouraged by a more assertive germany and understand why it cant be too anti-american.

 

[rhubroma]

If they 'd have any backbone they'd simply say that sanctions of any kind are no option whatsoever.
It's so sad to see that 100 years after the outbreak of world war one and 75 years after the outbreak of world war 2 german politicans and media are yet again riding a Anti russian agenda and firing tension between the countries. If we were to learn one lesson from history it's that Germany and Russia should stand side by side and never ever be involved in a major conflict. Yet German politicans still have no pride whatsoever and do whatever the USA want them to do. If the USA were to push hard, German politicans will fall and agree to sanctions, i've no doubt about that.

That's because the Cold War ideology simply has not gone away, when the entire apparatus of transnational interests needs to be reimagined. There are by now, however, too many interests at stake for a visionary approach to take root, anchored as we are in a crude polemic in which everything is subordinated to them .

It's is the same in Italy, where for 20 years Berlusconi from the pulpit anathematized the "communists." According to him, Italy, even after the liberals took over and the ideologies were dead (which meant Europe's left), was nonetheless ever under the threat of a communist coup. The left is of course, communist, the judicial magistracy that "persecuted" him is too, and so is anybody that "hates liberty."
He and Putin, however, became united, businesswise before national interests, on the most friendly of terms, bunga, bunga.

The truth is that in Europe the liberals, which means all of the mainstream political class, are still convinced that any form of reconciliation with the old socialist movements is a betrayal to free enterprise and democracy.

It's pathetic really and it only further radicalizes the moment. This, of course,in relation to the governments, wherease the populations largely have a better understanding.

 

[RetroActive]

Kremlin aide warns US of response if sanctions imposed: RIA
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-ukraine-crisis-glazyev-idUSBREA230DS20140304

A Kremlin aide was quoted on Tuesday as saying that if the United States were to impose sanctions on Russia over Ukraine, Moscow might be forced to drop the dollar as a reserve currency and refuse to pay off any loans to U.S. banks.

Just a threat, counter threat but this isn't softball - it's hardball. Sanctions on Russia means they crash the dollar system? We'd all feel that pain.

 

[RetroActive]

Stephen Harper warns Russia faces ouster from G8
Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Russia must immediately withdraw its soldiers from Ukraine or face diplomatic and economic isolation.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/03/03/harper_warns_that_russia_faces_ouster_from_g8.html

"They’ve invaded; I mean certainly if it’s not war, it’s akin to war,” Baird said on CBC’s Power and Politics broadcast. Baird was scornful of Russia’s claim it had to act to defend Russians living in Crimea, and compared Putin’s actions to Adolf Hitler’s when it invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938.

“The Sudetenland had a majority of Germans; that gave Germany no right to do this in the late 1930s,” Baird said. Asked by interviewer Evan Solomon if Baird was comparing Russia’s actions to Nazi Germany, Baird was blunt: “When we have one country invading one of its neighbours and using this type of outrageous and ludicrous rhetoric, it’s hard not to.”

Oh, the irony. What idiocy. Putin arrests ***** riot and it's never ending news, the west installs a gaggle of actual Fascists in the Ukranian gov't and not a peep about that in the mainstream news but Putin winds up compared to a Nazi.

 

[python]

Kremlin aide warns US of response if sanctions imposed: RIA
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-ukraine-crisis-glazyev-idUSBREA230DS20140304



Just a threat, counter threat but this isn't softball - it's hardball. Sanctions on Russia means they crash the dollar system? We'd all feel that pain.

year, i read that yesterday and, frankly, i don't think it will crash the dollar for any significant length of time unless china joins in, which they will not. 100% sure.

they have other, far more powerful economic and military options to respond if the us obnoxiousness does not stop... keep in mind, should the us keep cutting whatever flimsy connections are still in place, vlad will be free to play an uncontrolled spoiler. both near the american turf as well as world-wide.

from open sponsoring of the south american us-haters, to selling advance weaponry to iran to security union with china. you will see russian bases back in in cuba, you will see the eu polarizing into internal blocks up to a point of splitting...

 

[Amsterhammer]

Kerry is embarrassing himself again in Kiev telling the Russians how things are done differently in the 21st century.

Equally embarrassing today was Putin's laughable denial that the troops in the Crimea are not Russian forces, but 'local militias'.

 

[RetroActive]

year, i read that yesterday and, frankly, i don't think it will crash the dollar for any significant length of time unless china joins in, which they will not. 100% sure.

they have other, far more powerful economic and military options to respond if the us obnoxiousness does not stop... keep in mind, should the us keep cutting whatever flimsy connections are still in place, vlad will be free to play an uncontrolled spoiler. both near the american turf as well as world-wide.

from open sponsoring of the south american us-haters, to selling advance weaponry to iran to security union with china. you will see russian bases back in in cuba, you will see the eu polarizing into internal blocks up to a point of splitting...

I don't know. I'm keeping my eye on this sort of news as the petro-dollar system is the hub of what's going on, to my mind. The BRICS - Russia, China and Iran in particular have been slowly eroding their dependence on the petro-dollar for a few yrs. now. China has been sending out signals more frequently recently that it wants out, it's not happy but has to play along for now obviously. If the west is going to make Russia suffer under sanctions that will be an inspiration to extract themselves all the more quickly. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[blutto]

Stephen Harper warns Russia faces ouster from G8
Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Russia must immediately withdraw its soldiers from Ukraine or face diplomatic and economic isolation.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/03/03/harper_warns_that_russia_faces_ouster_from_g8.html



Oh, the irony. What idiocy. Putin arrests ***** riot and it's never ending news, the west installs a gaggle of actual Fascists in the Ukranian gov't and not a peep about that in the mainstream news but Putin winds up compared to a Nazi.

...that there is simply some of the special magic that is John Baird eh ( gawd just the sight of him makes my skin crawl )....what an utter and absolute embarrassment he is to humanity in general and Canadians in particular .....and the fact that the Conservative government sent that d****chebag into this very sensitive situation is just beyond comprehension ( though I guess they could have sent "Two Tier" Tony Clement ...)...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Kerry is embarrassing himself again in Kiev telling the Russians how things are done differently in the 21st century.

Equally embarrassing today was Putin's laughable denial that the troops in the Crimea are not Russian forces, but 'local militias'.

...nahhh...that was just an example of the Russian sense of humour........Vlad very funny man, just ask him....

Cheers

 

[python]

I don't know. I'm keeping my eye on this sort of news as the petro-dollar system is the hub of what's going on, to my mind. The BRICS - Russia, China and Iran in particular have been slowly eroding their dependence on the petro-dollar for a few yrs. now. China has been sending out signals more frequently recently that it wants out, it's not happy but has to play along for now obviously. If the west is going to make Russia suffer under sanctions that will be an inspiration to extract themselves all the more quickly. We'll just have to wait and see.

that's all true, but we are talking about crashing dollar vs. a sustained decline..a sharp decline, even for several weeks, can certainly be accomplished by flooding the financial markets, or even by the hints of flooding. that's one thing. then, you are right, we have had a gradual, long term re balancing of national reserves in china towards weighing the dollar less and less in favour of other currencies. but china is still the absolute largest buyer and holder of the american debt. clearly, because of the export oriented economy. thus, a gradual weakening of the dollar may very well be in their sights - for many reasons, including bringing their own currency to a world reserve status - but a quick and sustained crash of dollar would be counterproductive as long as they are still the biggest lender to the us treasury.

besides, having in mind that any national currency strength is eventually an index of that countries economy prospects, including the fact that the us grows faster and sinks slower than europe, they will continue heavy buying of the us debt.

this is another unfair advantage the us enjoys (in addition to its intimidation power ) - exploiting the world dependence on the dollar as the reserve currency.

the change is in sight - perhaps as far as in the next 15 to 20 rears - but not before the ukrainian crisis plays out

 

[RetroActive]

...that there is simply some of the special magic that is John Baird eh ( gawd just the sight of him makes my skin crawl )....what an utter and absolute embarrassment he is to humanity in general and Canadians in particular .....and the fact that the Conservative government sent that d****chebag into this very sensitive situation is just beyond comprehension ( though I guess they could have sent "Two Tier" Tony Clement ...)...

Cheers

To be honest I don't really even bother paying too much attention to Canadian politics, it's simply too pathetic. I've been convinced for quite some time that the Brits. and Americans pass the remote back and forth.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-09/08/cyborg-cockroaches

 

[RetroActive]

that's all true, but we are talking about crashing dollar vs. a sustained decline..a sharp decline, even for several weeks, can certainly be accomplished by flooding the financial markets, or even by the hints of flooding. that's one thing. then, you are right, we have had a gradual, long term re balancing of national reserves in china towards weighing the dollar less and less in favour of other currencies. but china is still the absolute largest buyer and holder of the american debt. clearly, because of the export oriented economy. thus, a gradual weakening of the dollar may very well be in their sights - for many reasons, including bringing their own currency to a world reserve status - but a quick and sustained crash of dollar would be counterproductive as long as they are still the biggest lender to the us treasury.

besides, having in mind that any national currency strength is eventually an index of that countries economy prospects, including the fact that the us grows faster and sinks slower than europe, they will continue heavy buying of the us debt.

this is another unfair advantage the us enjoys (in addition to its intimidation power ) - exploiting the world dependence on the dollar as the reserve currency.

the change is in sight - perhaps as far as in the next 15 to 20 rears - but not before the ukrainian crisis plays out

When discussing such matters the bolded becomes the chicken or egg question. Desperately trying to maintain an unsustainable system through ever greater expansion? Certainly. We are watching the system change, or rather trying not to change. rhub. said something about an indomitable force meeting unmoveable resistance or some such - indeed.

 

[rhubroma]

Stephen Harper warns Russia faces ouster from G8
Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Russia must immediately withdraw its soldiers from Ukraine or face diplomatic and economic isolation.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/03/03/harper_warns_that_russia_faces_ouster_from_g8.html



Oh, the irony. What idiocy. Putin arrests ***** riot and it's never ending news, the west installs a gaggle of actual Fascists in the Ukranian gov't and not a peep about that in the mainstream news but Putin winds up compared to a Nazi.

It's truly appalling how the Western mass media functions purely in the interests of power, though calls itself "the free press," in playing this all off as merely a Russian breach of international law. The US and Israel have done so repeatedly with impunity. And there's no critical context with it, beyond the most superficial and schematic propaganda.

It's unbelievable how the masses get "informed." There's no attempt to explain the historical, geopolitical and cultural-strategic background to it all, which goes back to the days of the Soviet Union. There's above all no objectivity, while such propaganda is used purely as a means to create consensus to a public that's either too distracted, lazy or stupid to think otherwise. It makes life easy for them and above all for our leaders.

All we see are Ukrainian protesters in New York (funny how the immigrant populations like Cubans and Italians are always so destra, once Berlusconi even wanted to give them the right to vote and that’s why), with signs condemning Russia, as if these opportunists represent the complete sentiments of the homeland population. At least on RAI news one got to see Ukrainians who were vehement against the fascists put in control by the West and who desire Russian assistance against them.

 

[gooner]

What about Putin today saying Abramovich had billions scammed by Kolomoisky, who is a governor in a region of east Ukraine.

For football fans you might have heard of Kolomoisky as the owner of Dnipro, the team managed by Juande Ramos that played against Spurs in the Europa League last week.

 

[del1962]

Having watched the news, what really concerns me is Putin is trying to provoke the Ukrainians as a pretext for his full scale military invansion

 

[RetroActive]

It's truly appalling how the Western mass media functions purely in the interests of power, though calls itself "the free press," in playing this all off as merely a Russian breach of international law. The US and Israel have done so repeatedly with impunity. And there's no critical context with it, beyond the most superficial and schematic propaganda.

It's unbelievable how the masses get "informed." There's no attempt to explain the historical, geopolitical and cultural-strategic background to it all, which goes back to the days of the Soviet Union. There's above all no objectivity, while such propaganda is used purely as a means to create consensus to a public that's either too distracted, lazy or stupid to think otherwise. It makes life easy for them and above all for our leaders.

All we see are Ukrainian protesters in New York (funny how the immigrant populations like Cubans and Italians are always so destra, once Berlusconi even wanted to give them the right to vote and that’s why), with signs condemning Russia, as if these opportunists represent the complete sentiments of the homeland population. At least on RAI news one got to see Ukrainians who were vehement against the fascists put in control by the West and who desire Russian assistance against them.

You'll find no disagreement from me about any of that. I can only add that a great deal of effort is put into creating this circumstance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

(del1962, are you there del1962, come in del1962)

I don't know if you caught this article I posted yesterday:
http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/

It speaks to who some of those Ukranian protesters are in the USA. The last paragraph reads:

Following the demise of Yanukovich this month, the UCCA helped organize rallies in cities across the US in support of the EuroMaidan protests. When several hundred demonstrators marchedthrough downtown Chicago, some waved Ukrainian flags while others proudly flew the red and black banners of the UPA and OUN-B. “USA supports Ukraine!” they chanted.

 

[python]

after following intently the uki conflict for several days now, i have arrived at my first 2 firm conclusion:

(i) judging kerry's bombastic verbiage, and remembering my grandma's wisdom about those loud talkers, i have come to a firm conclusion that lance has one more jewel than his honour secretary of state.

(ii) if the front man of a superpower is sent to talk so much, as opposed to act, the power that sent him is as impotent as its chief talking head.


i may share more conclusions later, but the kerry' s pathetic performance tops the deck.

 

[rhubroma]

Having watched the news, what really concerns me is Putin is trying to provoke the Ukrainians as a pretext for his full scale military invansion

An all out invasion of Ukraine would be a massive strategic error.

 

[del1962]

(del1962, are you there del1962, come in del1962)

I don't know if you caught this article I posted yesterday:
http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/

It speaks to who some of those Ukranian protesters are in the USA. The last paragraph reads:

While I have no doubt that there ae some nasty neo-Nazis in the Ukraine (you get wackos and extraemists in all countries), I think there is a definate attempt to exagerrate both their influence and apeal, so that Vlad can say look at those nasty Ukrainians,

 

[rhubroma]

While I have no doubt that there ae some nasty neo-Nazis in the Ukraine (you get wackos and extraemists in all countries), I think there is a definate attempt to exagerrate both their influence and apeal, so that Vlad can say look at those nasty Ukrainians,

Ok, but you aren't even seeing those Ukrainians that have asked Russia to resist them.

And that's not an objective media. In Italy we have seen both.

PS: Knowing the environment, I don't have any reason to suppose that there is an attempt to exaggerate their influence or appeal. It's like the curva sud. They may be a diconcerting inconvenience to what the US has actually stirred up, but that doesn't make it any less real.

 

[python]

Having watched the news, what really concerns me is Putin is trying to provoke the Ukrainians as a pretext for his full scale military invansion

when thousands of troops with all sorts of lethal weapons face each other and one side is tying to provoke another, to start shooting takes only one second...

that not one shot was fired after the almost 2 weeks of a standoff, tell me you are missing something big time.


again, had a provocation been the goal, it is easier than easy.

 

[RetroActive]

While I have no doubt that there ae some nasty neo-Nazis in the Ukraine (you get wackos and extraemists in all countries), I think there is a definate attempt to exagerrate both their influence and apeal, so that Vlad can say look at those nasty Ukrainians,

...and yet the Fascists hold positions within the government that has been installed by the west. Supporting al Qaeda in Syria, Fascists in Ukraine - interesting times. Desperate times.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Sanctions against Russia? Hmm... Who gains? USA and the tail of them (necons like Merkel and her gang). Who loses? Germanys citizens. A boycott vs Russia is not in the best interest of germans. We will pay a phucking high price (gas) next winter for the silly war games of the neocons. Merkel rapes our founding law, yet again. Just to please BFF USA and big business. This would not be possible if we had a free press instead "one owned by 200 rich western" basterds (Scholl-Latour), that brainwash our people so much so that they re-elect the evil every 4 years...

 

[RetroActive]

Sanctions against Russia? Hmm... Who gains? USA and the tail of them (necons like Merkel and her gang). Who loses? Germanys citizens. A boycott vs Russia is not in the best interest of germans. We will pay a phucking high price (gas) next winter for the silly war games of the neocons. Merkel rapes our founding law, yet again. Just to please BFF USA and big business. This would not be possible if we had a free press instead "one owned by 200 rich western" basterds (Scholl-Latour), that brainwash our people so much so that they re-elect the evil every 4 years...

Here's a slick, subtle even, piece from this side of the pond:

Ukraine crisis: Europe wrings hands as Vladimir Putin checkmates Crimea
Little wonder EU is divided, it's been misreading Vladimir Putin for years
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukrain...as-vladimir-putin-checkmates-crimea-1.2558488

There are abstract notions and then there's skin in the game.