World Politics

[Jagartrott]

Quite a high number of Australians on board which is why it is getting a large amount of coverage. Our second highest international casualty loss from terrorism. A very common route for Australians to take when travelling home from Europe.

Sorry, but how is this terrorism? Terrorism requires intent I think.
This was some idiots playing with advanced weaponry making a huge mistake. If you read the transcripts from those rebels, you cannot help but cringe with the amount of brainlessness of that lot.

 

[rainman]

The question is what was the reasoning that allowed the aircraft to be over that piece of land in the first place.

They had Civil Aviation Organisation clearance but other airlines, notably Qantas, have been avoiding the area for several months now, giving 400 nautical miles clearance.

 

[python]

the only good news in the tragedy is the 2 black boxes have been recovered and secured. the bad news, though, is that the blame game has started and gaining momentum.

very unfortunately, this means a competent, unbiased investigation is unlikely...and, if i believe my own eyes and ears it is NOT NECESSARY because the blame has been assigned already period.

it blows my mind, how terribly naive, short-sighted - even stupid - we the public are. we in the west swallow ANY crap the mass media feeds us...

time and again, i found that the ukrainian events - and unfortunately this tragedy wont be any different - are grossly distorted, under reported or unreported.

imo, it is time the the eropean countries most affected (together with australia) form an independent investigation and bar american specialists unless they are proven unaffiliated with cia and the state department.

this time, compared to the march crash of the Malaysian plane, the truth is much easier to determine...unless, of course, political spinners from all sides have their way again
----
just in: the rebel leader officially denied that the black boxed are recovered. he called it' western media misinformation'

 

[python]

They had Civil Aviation Organisation clearance but other airlines, notably Qantas, have been avoiding the area for several months now, giving 400 nautical miles clearance.

generally a correct answer...but, while more details were well known, like i said in my previous post, the glorious western media did not report them.

specifically, the clearance to fly over the eastern ukraine war zone was given by... the ukrainian authorities
. the ukrainian clearance stated that the civilian craft are fine as long as they fly above 10, 000 meters. the logic of the decision was that the rebels only owned the shoulder-fired missiles incapable above 4, 000 meters.

we also know for a fact now that the flight was above 10,000m as it was confirmed by several official sources.

in a way, it is criminal to issue such a clearance when Ukraine's own military aviation was active every day in the very area.

 

[movingtarget]

Sorry, but how is this terrorism? Terrorism requires intent I think.
This was some idiots playing with advanced weaponry making a huge mistake. If you read the transcripts from those rebels, you cannot help but cringe with the amount of brainlessness of that lot.

The people that gave them such a weapon ? Some planes flew the same route earlier in the day so the air corridor was a sanctioned one and considered safe. Cargo planes don't fly at 30,000 feet so they had no idea what they were firing at. That was the 16th aircraft or helicopter shot down in East Ukraine. Why this plane was targeted and other commercial airliners were not just comes down to dumb luck. Or plain bad luck.

 

[movingtarget]

Interesting to note that there was a large contingent of Dutch people coming to Melbourne on that flight for the AIDS conference starting this week. One of the leading experts from the Netherlands on AIDS passed away on that flight as well.

Quite a high number of Australians on board which is why it is getting a large amount of coverage. Our second highest international casualty loss from terrorism. A very common route for Australians to take when travelling home from Europe.

Odd that the number of US passengers that passed away from the flight was named and then not named by the authorities.

Something like 12 delegates for the AIDS conference in Melbourne. Some leading researchers. Very tragic.

 

[Arnout]

generally a correct answer...but, while more details were well known, like i said in my previous post, the glorious western media did not report them.

specifically, the clearance to fly over the eastern ukraine war zone was given by... the ukrainian authorities
. the ukrainian clearance stated that the civilian craft are fine as long as they fly above 10, 000 meters. the logic of the decision was that the rebels only owned the shoulder-fired missiles incapable above 4, 000 meters.

we also know for a fact now that the flight was above 10,000m as it was confirmed by several official sources.

in a way, it is criminal to issue such a clearance when Ukraine's own military aviation was active every day in the very area.

Interestingly, the flight diverted from its original flight path because of bad weather, they wanted to avoid thunderstorms (note: it is possible to fly through thunderstorms but airliners generally divert for passenger comfort reasons and to avoid incidents such as the Air France crash near Brazil, which was of course over sea and at night). Reports are coming in that many airliners already avoided the area, but as the air space wasn't officially closed there was no reason not to divert for it if the other route was unsuitable for some reason.

The airspace was closed below 31,000 feet, so all aircraft not at cruise altitude (30,000-40,000 feet) were not allowed to use the airspace, but it was probably considered highly unlikely a sophisticated weapon would be used.

 

[rainman]

it blows my mind, how terribly naive, short-sighted - even stupid - we the public are. we in the west swallow ANY crap the mass media feeds us...

Its called the mushroom culture. 'Keep them in the dark and feed them s**t'

 

[blutto]

-putin/russia deny his plane flew over the area, in fact does not go over eastern ukraine at all

....so its back to stupidity and/or incompetence, both of which are unfortunately not in short supply in this conflict....

Cheers

 

[auscyclefan94]

Sorry, but how is this terrorism? Terrorism requires intent I think.
This was some idiots playing with advanced weaponry making a huge mistake. If you read the transcripts from those rebels, you cannot help but cringe with the amount of brainlessness of that lot.

Firstly, the rebels thought the plane was from Ukraine. Therefore, the missile was fired at it to destroy the suspected Ukrainian plane that had entered the 'disputed' territory where the rebels has occupied. The rebels had sent out a message over social media that it was to send a message to the Ukrainians that they had 'warned' them not to enter the disputed airspace, not knowing later it was a civilian plane. I would regard that sort of action and intent as a form of terrorism.

 

[theyoungest]

Firstly, the rebels thought the plane was from Ukraine. Therefore, the missile was fired at it to destroy the suspected Ukrainian plane that had entered the 'disputed' territory where the rebels has occupied. The rebels had sent out a message over social media that it was to send a message to the Ukrainians that they had 'warned' them not to enter the disputed airspace, not knowing later it was a civilian plane. I would regard that sort of action and intent as a form of terrorism.

Terrorism is meant to incite fear. This was 'just' an act of war. They meant to bring down a Ukrainian freight transport, or whatever they thought it was.

If Americans shoot down a plane in Afghanistan, no one speaks of terrorism.

 

[Red Rick]

Horrible story, obviously. RIP to all those people

Maybe it's good that it wasn't an american plane with a lot of american passengers, going all Iraq or Afghanistan on it is the last thing we need

 

[blutto]

....ok, the official stories are starting to hit the air...

"BREAKING ON CNN: US Intelligence CONFIRMS

The missile was fired by the Pro-Russian Separatists. No link yet, live on CNN. "

...and...

"Meanwhile Sky News is reporting that the Russian Ministry has traced the radar signature of the missile and the origin was a unit supplied to Ukraine itself and which remains in its possession. Doubtless when called upon to do so the claim will be authenticated - or not so."

...and if recent history is any indicator ( the Syrian sarin issue specifically ) the Russians enjoy a thin patina of more better authenticity when it comes to correctly identifying " acts of terror " ....

....and btw don't want to appear cynical or anything but this has certainly put the escalation of the Gaza conflict on the back pages hasn't it....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Terrorism is meant to incite fear.

....sort of like an attack by a drone ...?.....

Cheers

 

[Amsterhammer]

If Americans shoot down a plane in Afghanistan, no one speaks of terrorism.

The Taliban has no air force.

 

[python]

since all the sides are talking about the buk sam system, i got curious and did some open-source reading....

the wiki seems quite informative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

it is indeed a very sophisticated system that must require high degree of training and coordination. it's not just one vehicle spitting rockets but 3 machines all requiring flawless coordination by almost a dozen crew to shoot anything...not an image i have of a rag-tag rebel. the claimed kill probability is 90-95%only if the multiple system radars (acquisition, tracking fire-control) are
professionally managed.

if it the malaysian plane was indeed shot down by this system, i am absolutely sure it is either the ukrainian military or a professional russian crew...no way a rebel can operate this toy.

btw, the system is so sophisticated that Finland bought it after some competitive bids.

 

[blutto]

since all the sides are talking about the buk sam system, i got curious and did some open-source reading....

the wiki seems quite informative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

it is indeed a very sophisticated system that must require high degree of training and coordination. it's not just one vehicle spitting rockets but 3 machines all requiring flawless coordination by almost a dozen crew to shoot anything...not an image i have of a rag-tag rebel. the claimed kill probability is 90-95%only if the multiple system radars (acquisition, tracking fire-control) are
professionally managed.

if it the malaysian plane was indeed shot down by this system, i am absolutely sure it is either the ukrainian military or a professional russian crew...no way a rebel can operate this toy.

btw, the system is so sophisticated that Finland bought it after some competitive bids.

....the following from RT ( their version of our version so for what its worth )....

"It seems unlikely that the self-defense forces could’ve used Buk surface-to-air missile systems to down the Malaysian plane, retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, the director of the Defense and Intelligence Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, said.

“It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something,” he told CNN. “This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage and fire.”

According to Ryan, if the plane was really taken down then it was done by a professional military force. "

Cheers

 

[Amsterhammer]

I've just seen a piece of film on Belgian tv news (the usual, unable to confirm when and where it was shot) apparently showing 'the' BUK with only three missiles on the back of a large truck today.

 

[theyoungest]

I've just seen a piece of film on Belgian tv news (the usual, unable to confirm when and where it was shot) apparently showing 'the' BUK with only three missiles on the back of a large truck today.

That seems too obvious to make it true... which probably makes it true. Although this wasn't the first plane that was shot down in that area lately, around that altitude (give or take a few thousand feet).

They'll never find that launch system, that seems a given. They just need to prove from satellite images or debris that the plane was shot down (which of course the accused will then deny the authority of).

 

[python]

some interesting latest developments need a note:

-obama claimed the tragedy needs a thorough investigation while he already knows it was a missile and it came from the rebel-controlled area. why the f*uck does he needs an investigation if he already decided ? clearly, he's full of political crap and the cia is as full of it.

- i just heard a rebel leader that the black boxes, if and when found, will NOT be under any circumstances turned over to the ukrainian authorities or to any american controlled party. what does it mean ? more unsubstantiated american claims that when asked to be sourced will be refused as classified.

-lavrov made an ominous statement - in light of the recent ukrainian bombardment of a russian border town that killed their citizen - russia will respond by suppressing fire.

-there was a bunch of mutually exclusive russian and ukrainian claims regarding 'evidence'. the weirdest one was that ukraine arrested 'the spotters' used by the rebels when shooting down the plane. i guess no one explained to the insane ukrainian pr masters that human spotters are only used for on ground targets.

same old...but i am growing in my suspicion of the uki story judging by the extent of the us efforts to protect their investment in the ukrainian anti-russian 'revolution'.

 

[Jagartrott]

Being completely paranoid, does that hurt or does it just tickle a bit?

 

[blutto]

....hmmm....

"Never mind the 'war on terror' rhetoric, writes Nafeez Ahmed. The purpose of Israel's escalating assault on Gaza is to control the Territory's 1.4 trillion cubic feet of gas - and so keep Palestine poor and weak, gain massive export revenues, and avert its own domestic energy crisis.

Israel's defence minister is on record confirming that military plans to uproot Hamas' are about securing control of Gaza's gas reserves

The conquest of Gaza is accelerating. Israel has now launched its ground invasion, bringing the Palestinian death toll to 260, 80% of whom are civilians.

.....

But in 2007, a year before Operation Cast Lead, Ya'alon's concerns focused on the 1.4 trillion cubic feet of natural gas discovered in 2000 off the Gaza coast, valued at $4 billion.

Ya'alon dismissed the notion that "Gaza gas can be a key driver of an economically more viable Palestinian state" as "misguided".

The problem, he said is that "Proceeds of a Palestinian gas sale to Israel would likely not trickle down to help an impoverished Palestinian public. Rather, based on Israel's past experience, the proceeds will likely serve to fund further terror attacks against Israel ...

"A gas transaction with the Palestinian Authority will, by definition, involve Hamas. Hamas will either benefit from the royalties or it will sabotage the project and launch attacks against Fatah, the gas installations, Israel - or all three ...

"It is clear that without an overall military operation to uproot Hamas control of Gaza, no drilling work can take place without the consent of the radical Islamic movement."

http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2482929/gaza_israels_4_billion_gas_grab.html

Cheers

 

[blutto]

same old...but i am growing in my suspicion of the uki story judging by the extent of the us efforts to protect their investment in the ukrainian anti-russian 'revolution'.

....find below an article that throws some interesting logs on the suspicion fire....longish but worth a peruse....

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...oving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

....and...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/final-moments-flight-mh-17-russian-side-story

...the flight path angle is kinda interesting....the local paper of record today had a map that showed the last 4 days of flight paths taken by the stricken plane...the last flight path was a big deviation that took them directly into harms way....knowing the details of the how and why and directed by whom would be very interesting given the outcome....

....more curiouser and curiouser....

Cheers

 

[rhubroma]

I've just seen a piece of film on Belgian tv news (the usual, unable to confirm when and where it was shot) apparently showing 'the' BUK with only three missiles on the back of a large truck today.

The attempt to attribute to a "side" (that is a Nation, a government, an army) the launching of a missile against a civilian plane, full of innocents, becomes ever less easy as the years go by. Just a few rotten soldiers who are either more like bandits, or more drunk are needed, or even a single imbecile who feels authorized by a Cause (there are millions of Causes, of more or less import) to fill a cemetery.

Technology has placed too many with an all too facile means of destruction, which up until not so long ago was solidly in the hands of the States and their authorized armies. The atomic nightmare has by now been brought within the black market. The general headquarters (plural) are almost all of them deprived of authority: Putin, that is, has little chance to hold back the philorussians in Ukraine, who are disposed to die for Russia, even if Russia doesn't even dream of asking them to.

To organize a real World War would require a strategist capable of grouping together the various illegible forces involved. In the meantime war, just like the weeds, takes root where it can. It profits on every occasion, takes advantage of each weep hole. And there you have it: a plane full of the Dutch and Malaysians burns because the Russians of Ukraine and the Ukrainians of Ukraine are nervous. It's not that dying because Hitler invaded Poland was any better. It was, however, easier to explain to the orphans and widows.

 

[python]

....find below an article that throws some interesting logs on the suspicion fire....longish but worth a peruse....

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...oving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

....and...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/final-moments-flight-mh-17-russian-side-story

...the flight path angle is kinda interesting....the local paper of record today had a map that showed the last 4 days of flight paths taken by the stricken plane...the last flight path was a big deviation that took them directly into harms way....knowing the details of the how and why and directed by whom would be very interesting given the outcome....

....more curiouser and curiouser....

Cheers

that site appears interested in examining both sides of the disaster... a rarity in the west even among the bloggers. i bookmarked them. thanks...

to me, the biggest unanswered question, as i already posed, is why the ukrainian authorities did not close the airspace over the area where they operated their military aircraft daily altogether if the motive was commercial, as all air carriers have to pay a fee for the overflights, i consider it criminal. any unbiased investigation should START with the question..really, it's no brainer. ukraine flied their attack planes which were constantly shot at by the rebels (with many shot down) few hundred meters from the civil craft flying just above...as i said, if to make a few $$, it is pure criminal !

many companies and countries including the united states barred their planes from the dangerous space way BEFORE the tragedy occurred. a fact.

why the glorious western media did not produce a single investigative article about thenatural question is beyond me