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buckwheat

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Thoughtforfood said:
I always thought we agreed on most things too, but it seems that the validity of the paternalistic philosophy that, in my opinion, influenced the creation of the welfare programs in the mid 1960 so offends buck, that he came out swinging. I guess unless you tow the party line, you are just as bad as Reagan in his world.

I will let it go however, as you are right...per usual.

Ok alright....

It did bother me a more than a little. The people left of center are somewhat more diverse in their opinions than those on the right(all they seem to care about is money) although I think my problem here with this particular issue is a little more than a nuance.


I'm very defensive about the underdogs.
 
buckwheat said:
The Great Society was a failure in the same sense as the current stimulus plan was. A group of politicians labeled it so. Funny how you're not seeing the point that the plight of blacks could have been much worse had they not gotten that aid.



says you.



An independent? I have a lot more respect for people who can actually make up their minds on very clear issues.



Honestly, I don't trust your judgement as to what unbiased is.




Damn, talk about reading into something! I feel good about my points?
Actually, I feel horrendous about them. The fact that there is still a debate about this crap is incredible. You chalk up the whole perceived (by you) failure of the Great Society to "Paternalism," yet in the same breath you recognize that racism was so institutionalized and pervasive that even the POTUS who came out on the side of blacks was a racist. Talk about a group of people having the deck stacked against them. Then you gild the lily by implying that it's not racism that hurt the blacks, it's the fact that they got help. Nice!

Just because some of your students got sucked into this whole "power of positive thinking" rah rah, crap, doesn't mean that they were not in fact helped by the aid they did get. That doesn't mean to say they wouldn't have benefited even more if society had been more just with opportunities.




More reading into things? Making points tied to reality btw, is part of discussing things. I'm so glad you're above things that you can "discuss" events which have no applicability or consequence to your current situation.




Actually it's called having convictions, something you as a fence sitter wouldn't know much about.



You're teaching this kind of "philosophy." Get a job in the real world outside of school, where the rubber meets the road with policy.

Myopic? That I actually give a damn that people aren't effed over out in the real working world. You know, stuff like having their jobs threatened every day, and having OSHA spouting out right wing talking points about personal responsibility during the GWB Admininstration. Stuff you may talk about in the classroom has a real world effect on real people.



For a guy that complains about me "reading into" his posts you're doing a helluva job Brownie!

BTW, I'm disgusted with the Democrats. At least the Republicans are completely out in the open with their moral and ethical corruption. The Democrats are almost as corrupt and they're trying to have it both ways when they talk little guy/underdog and walk corporate.

You're "paternalism," Ronald Reagan, "welfare queen" bs is realism?

Your students being convinced of this idiotic paternalism argument shows just how perverse this country has become. The stigma attached to "Welfare" is widely understood even though that very word embodies an admonition in the Constitution. One almost has to admire how Republicans have perverted the language. People have taken advantage of the fact that blacks don't want to see themselves as victims. One is made to feel inferior because they accepted help which was desperately needed.

Three centuries of slavery caused an inherent "inferiority" status, a century of "American apartheid" and Jim Crow laws did the rest...the liberal spirit of the 60's and the Civil Rights movement let Washington know that something had to be done.

The problem with so called wellfare, however, has been that it has never really addressed the the gravity of the situation which white dominated, capitalist America has caused for the nation's emarginated and disenfranchised: namely the creation of a generationally weak social class (economically and socially) that has no real access to upward mobility. Also because the rules of traditional conservative economic and social thinking, which has predominated at the Nation's "world-view," has created a system in which the struggling must simply fend for themselves while the better and well off enjoy the privlidges decorous to their social status and thus recieve that which they rightfully deserve. The absence of any real social State in terms of healthcare and education has only reinforced the dramatic situation, one which has caused the "ghettoization" af the American city and an increasing recourse to violent and illicet means (drug dealing) as the "only means" for economic prosperity among the ghetto population.

Wellfare, consequently, has tried to put an inadequit band-aid on a festering wound, that calls for a much more aggressive treatment than a few pittifully insufficent economic incentives would produce. The problem is so serious that the Nation State would have to radically alter it's mentallity and begin to seriously invest in education and infrastructures in the devestated urban ghetto zones (though also the desolate rural ones), for anything significant to come about: by actually diverting some of those benifits away from the prosperous classes toward the weak. In other words, to put a halt on the further development of downtown and begin to focus attention on the ghetto with the resources that have since always benefited those with an already discrete patrimony to allow those with none a chance at having one. Anything less than this total shift in approach, will only, as it allready has done, reinforce the status quo.

The truth is that the lowly don't move up, not because they are lazy, don't want to work and expect the State to come through for them to enjoy at least a subsistance life (wellfare); but because the strong prefer to live conservatively, rather than to give up some of their patrimony so that those without one can begin to see beyond their own abject poverty. And without a patrimony of their own, the generationally weak class will continue to perpetuate itself for the foreseeable future, that is long term.

And this represents an eons old historical class struggle which neither democracy, nor capitalism has resolved. A class struggle which had taken on a new, and decidedly more catastrophic, demension, when enhanced by racism: while all the more repugnant in a State where "all men are created equal" had been that founding principle which was supposed to eliminate class per say and replace it with a new order, where personal liberty and freedom to work was supposed to create access to participate in the cummulative wealth. What has happened among black America (but also other minorities) has been a to deny that principle of equality and to refuse that princple of liberty upon which the theoretical precepts of the American democracy had been established. Thus a doubly mendacious offense.

Your points: "The Democrats are almost as corrupt and they're trying to have it both ways when they talk little guy/underdog and walk corporate" and "your students being convinced of this idiotic paternalism argument shows just how perverse this country has become. The stigma attached to "Welfare" is widely understood even though that very word embodies an admonition in the Constitution. One almost has to admire how Republicans have perverted the language" are brilliant because they perfectly capture the perverse political spirit that has been leading the Nation along a crash course toward social disaster if something more useful in addressing the problem isn't done.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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rhubroma said:
Three centuries of slavery caused an inherent "inferiority" status, a century of "American apartheid" and Jim Crow laws did the rest...the liberal spirit of the 60's and the Civil Rights movement let Washington know that something had to be done.

The problem with so called wellfare, however, has been that it has never really addressed the the gravity of the situation which white dominated, capitalist America has caused for the nation's emarginated and disenfranchised: namely the creation of a generationally weak social class (economically and socially) that has no real access to upward mobility. Also because the rules of traditional conservative economic and social thinking, which has predominated at the Nation's "world-view," has created a system in which the struggling must simply fend for themselves while the better and well off enjoy the privlidges decorous to their social status and thus recieve that which they rightfully deserve. The absence of any real social State in terms of healthcare and education has only reinforced the dramatic situation, one which has caused the "ghettoization" af the American city and an increasing recourse to violent and illicet means (drug dealing) as the "only means" for economic prosperity among the ghetto population.

Wellfare, consequently, has tried to put an inadequit band-aid on a festering wound, that calls for a much more aggressive treatment than a few pittifully insufficent economic incentives would produce. The problem is so serious that the Nation State would have to radically alter it's mentallity and begin to seriously invest in education and infrastructures in the devestated urban ghetto zones (though also the desolate rural ones), for anything significant to come about: by actually diverting some of those benifits away from the prosperous classes toward the weak. In other words, to put a halt on the further development of downtown and begin to focus attention on the ghetto with the resources that have since always benefited those with an already discrete patrimony to allow those with none a chance at having one. Anything less than this total shift in approach, will only, as it allready has done, reinforce the status quo.

The truth is that the lowly don't move up, not because they are lazy, don't want to work and expect the State to come through for them to enjoy at least a subsistance life (wellfare); but because the strong prefer to live conservatively, rather than to give up some of their patrimony so that those without one can begin to see beyond their own abject poverty. And without a patrimony of their own, the generationally weak class will continue to perpetuate itself for the foreseeable future, that is long term.

And this represents an eons old historical class struggle which neither democracy, nor capitalism has resolved. A class struggle which had taken on a new, and decidedly more catastrophic, demension, when enhanced by racism: while all the more repugnant in a State where "all men are created equal" had been that founding principle which was supposed to eliminate class per say and replace it with a new order, where personal liberty and freedom to work was supposed to create access to participate in the cummulative wealth. What has happened among black America (but also other minorities) has been a to deny that principle of equality and to refuse that princple of liberty upon which the theoretical precepts of the American democracy had been established. Thus a doubly mendacious offense.

Your points: "The Democrats are almost as corrupt and they're trying to have it both ways when they talk little guy/underdog and walk corporate" and "your students being convinced of this idiotic paternalism argument shows just how perverse this country has become. The stigma attached to "Welfare" is widely understood even though that very word embodies an admonition in the Constitution. One almost has to admire how Republicans have perverted the language" are brilliant because they perfectly capture the perverse political spirit that has been leading the Nation along a crash course toward social disaster if something more useful in addressing the problem isn't done.

Wow, thanks again.

Yours was a brilliant, rational explanation of my visceral frustration and anger.

You've probably seen Apocalypse Now, the scene where the crew massacres the Vietnamese on the sampan.

The chief wants to take the barely living, wounded Vietnamese girl to the hospital and Willard steps forward and shoots her dead.

Willard voice over: "It was a way we had of living with ourselves. We'd cut them in half with a machine gun, and give them a "Band Aid." It was a lie. And the more I saw them, the more I hated liars.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
You don't really think glaciers aren't retreating, do you? :confused:

"...the experts are retreating faster than they claimed the glaciers are."

In some places glaciers are actually growing, some places they are not, however, it is very clear that the UN report is full of errors including a claim that by 2035 there will be no glacier fields in the Himalayan mountains.

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/presentations/himalaya-statement-20january2010.pdf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/20/himalayan-glaciers-melt-claims-false-ipcc
 
Jul 14, 2009
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CentralCaliBike said:
"...the experts are retreating faster than they claimed the glaciers are."

In some places glaciers are actually growing, some places they are not, however, it is very clear that the UN report is full of errors including a claim that by 2035 there will be no glacier fields in the Himalayan mountains.

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/presentations/himalaya-statement-20january2010.pdf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/20/himalayan-glaciers-melt-claims-false-ipcc
Can't find the name of the movie where a moon landing is faked in a sound studio.You or buckwheat have got to know the answer.Over Christmas looked at photo albums of my family skiing and racing motorcycles in CA,AZ,NM,NV. I visit all of them as much as possible and can say for sure that snowfalls are generally declining over the last 30 years. It could be the millions of new people that moved to the areas,or the millions of sq feet of blacktop and concrete they needed for transportation or houses w,driveways, or maybe the snow is there and I can see it. You will be happy to know that in the movie after the astronauts find out the government is up to no good they are hunted down and killed
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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fatandfast said:
Can't find the name of the movie where a moon landing is faked in a sound studio.

Capricorn One? Never saw the whole thing, just bits and pieces. James Brolin, OJ Simpson. Can't remember the others.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
rhubroma said:
Three centuries of slavery caused an inherent "inferiority" status, a century of "American apartheid" and Jim Crow laws did the rest...the liberal spirit of the 60's and the Civil Rights movement let Washington know that something had to be done.

The problem with so called wellfare, however, has been that it has never really addressed the the gravity of the situation which white dominated, capitalist America has caused for the nation's emarginated and disenfranchised: namely the creation of a generationally weak social class (economically and socially) that has no real access to upward mobility. Also because the rules of traditional conservative economic and social thinking, which has predominated at the Nation's "world-view," has created a system in which the struggling must simply fend for themselves while the better and well off enjoy the privlidges decorous to their social status and thus recieve that which they rightfully deserve. The absence of any real social State in terms of healthcare and education has only reinforced the dramatic situation, one which has caused the "ghettoization" af the American city and an increasing recourse to violent and illicet means (drug dealing) as the "only means" for economic prosperity among the ghetto population.

Wellfare, consequently, has tried to put an inadequit band-aid on a festering wound, that calls for a much more aggressive treatment than a few pittifully insufficent economic incentives would produce. The problem is so serious that the Nation State would have to radically alter it's mentallity and begin to seriously invest in education and infrastructures in the devestated urban ghetto zones (though also the desolate rural ones), for anything significant to come about: by actually diverting some of those benifits away from the prosperous classes toward the weak. In other words, to put a halt on the further development of downtown and begin to focus attention on the ghetto with the resources that have since always benefited those with an already discrete patrimony to allow those with none a chance at having one. Anything less than this total shift in approach, will only, as it allready has done, reinforce the status quo.

The truth is that the lowly don't move up, not because they are lazy, don't want to work and expect the State to come through for them to enjoy at least a subsistance life (wellfare); but because the strong prefer to live conservatively, rather than to give up some of their patrimony so that those without one can begin to see beyond their own abject poverty. And without a patrimony of their own, the generationally weak class will continue to perpetuate itself for the foreseeable future, that is long term.

And this represents an eons old historical class struggle which neither democracy, nor capitalism has resolved. A class struggle which had taken on a new, and decidedly more catastrophic, demension, when enhanced by racism: while all the more repugnant in a State where "all men are created equal" had been that founding principle which was supposed to eliminate class per say and replace it with a new order, where personal liberty and freedom to work was supposed to create access to participate in the cummulative wealth. What has happened among black America (but also other minorities) has been a to deny that principle of equality and to refuse that princple of liberty upon which the theoretical precepts of the American democracy had been established. Thus a doubly mendacious offense.

Your points: "The Democrats are almost as corrupt and they're trying to have it both ways when they talk little guy/underdog and walk corporate" and "your students being convinced of this idiotic paternalism argument shows just how perverse this country has become. The stigma attached to "Welfare" is widely understood even though that very word embodies an admonition in the Constitution. One almost has to admire how Republicans have perverted the language" are brilliant because they perfectly capture the perverse political spirit that has been leading the Nation along a crash course toward social disaster if something more useful in addressing the problem isn't done.

I agree with the idea that there is systematic racism, but differ in my belief regarding the solution. Booker T Washington was maligned in the early part of the 20th century because of his take on what was required for African Americans to rise from the effects of slavery. His take was that African Americans should not seek to become members of white culture, but to proceed more like other immigrant communities. There is a model used by Jews, Ethopians, Chinese, and others that says the way upward is to essentially cut yourself off from outside influence, and build an economy with your own money and labor. Those who have loan to those that need to build, but within the community. If you want to see a current example, look at the Ethopian community in Atlanta. The came, those who could opened businesses that catered to Ethopians. They then loaned money to others who sought to create commerce. They also stressed education and higher learning. They frequent each others businesses over those outside their community, and it works. They are consequently becoming a well regarded part of that community by many, but they are also hated by many in the African American establishment because they do not extend their model to anyone but their own.

I just finished watching a comedy/documentary called "Good Hair" by Chris Rock, and the message in it was strikingly similar to what Washington envisioned. I will briefly discuss it, but you should watch it. It describes the culture of hair in African American women, and African Americans as a whole. It is interesting in a couple of things. First, the market for hair care products is dominated by Asians. Why? Because many of the businesses that started as African American owned were sold when the profit was high enough. Now there are 3 main companies in the market owned by African Americans. The rest are not. Many used to be. It also goes into the idea of the hair itself, and the striving for African American women to have hair more similar to Caucasian hair in straightness and feel. Why? Because the desire is to be part of something that is not inherently part of their culture.

Now, is it smarter for the white majority of our country to seek to right the wrongs of the past by forcing money their way and saying we are sorry for all of the trouble we caused? Or is it more logical and empowering for the African American community to let people like Chris Rock speak a little louder about doing it for themselves. Now, in the early 20th century, that would have been more difficult. However, there is significant capital owned by African Americans, and should they put the model used by other minority communities into action, they would become what Washington envisioned, a community that could not be ignored because of the economic impact they bring to the table.

To require others to change in order for you to succeed is not a philosophy that works on a personal level, or in a larger sociological construct. Rich people have always wanted to keep their money, and have always had the power to do it. Is it logical to believe that will change by shame or governmental dictate? I don't think so.

The African American community is a proud community, filled with people who are resourceful and capable of becoming an extremely significant part of the economy as a whole. In many ways, they have progressed that way more than ever in the last 20 years. Just look at the money and growth in the rap industry. It created itself, with money from inside the community. What has happened in the last 8 years or so, all that changed, and the African American businesses in that industry were sold for profit, and the giveback now comes from corporations that are not part of the community. I fully believe that the solution lies within, and not from without.

Do I believe that there should be a safety net for all, absolutely. Do I believe there should be incentives to encourage business growth, absolutely. Do I believe there should be money for education, absolutely. Do I believe there is a government program that could facilitate the change that is needed? No. As much as I would like the world to change, and for people to change, and for the wealthy to do what is fair, and for people to be more altruistic, it just isn't going to happen. The Capitalism train is moving ahead, and to suggest that it can be stopped is not realistic. The old adage, if you cannot beat them, join them is the solution in my opinion. Will it fix every problem and right every wrong? No. But my personal experience tells me that you go further on personal responsibility than waiting on an offending party to change. I just don't think victimhood is a successful path in life. That does not mean that there were not atrocities, reprehensible laws, systematic forced servitude, systematic racism. There certainly were, and no, I don't believe African Americans should just accept that and move on. I think they should accept that most likely, people will always be prejudiced (and some of the worst racism I heard in school was from African Americans about Hispanics. Things that, were the said about African Americans, would have gotten you expelled and/or beat to a pulp. However, it happened every day, and many saw no problem with it. I will paraphrase Edward Abbey regarding a friend of his, we may feel like scum, but we know who is beneath us.), and seek to create themselves into an economic force that cannot be ignored.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
I agree with the idea that there is systematic racism, but differ in my belief regarding the solution.....

Mine was not a call toward making a tool of "shame" to correct the wrongs of the past, nor was it that the oppressed should rely on that collective shame and their own "victomhood," as you call it, (even if, it must be said, the generational nature of their struggling social status is directly connected to thier forebearers having been causualties of American history) to seek a means toward a better life. Rather it had to do with a simple concept, which is all too often downplayed when not outright inconsidered (because too inconvenient by many to do otherwise); namely the management of wealth. A simple concept, that, in an enlightened society where reason dominates the priority scale and not the self-serving interests of the rich and powerful, allows for a rational approach to how public funds are spent where they are most wanting and toward helping those with the greatest needs.

That the capitalist machine is going along and can't be stopped, is merely an alibi to excuse one from having to take up more rigorous and noble social philosophy where the management of wealth and its more just distribution is dictated by such a rational approach.

Though I have no illusions that men will take it upon themselves to actually live by such a rigorous social philosophy, however, the path toward greater social equality is to found in it. Yet this is a theme that was already addressed, that is reason leading to political and social policies, in the Classical Age in Plato's Republic. 2300 years later we are still there...

Your case about self-realization amoung the Ethipian community of Atlanta, while poigniant, is merley instrumental and doesn't address the reality of the generational poverty among the American black ghetto populations connected to a history of white oppression. On the one hand, because we're talking about a recently arrived imigrant group without the historical burden to bear of blacks in the ghettos, for whom it is simply inconcievable (and I would also say intellectually dishonest) to assert that they can completely by themselves reverse their lowly predicament, without serious attention (and spending) comming from that collectivity with the patrimony that they so fiercely protect and hold onto for themselves. And secondly because the capitalist machine, as you call it, itself doesn't allow for a mass class of the economically feeble to have access to more wealth, because it tends to create (as it is in fact doing) a concentration of extreme wealth in ever fewer hands that leads to more intensive competition (not cooporation) among the middle and lower classes to grabbing the largest piece of the pie leftover by the super rich. The poor thus become ever more emarginaed and increasingly disenfranchised because they enter the competion already with a severe handicap. The capitalist machine doesn't permit cooporation, nor rational decision making, in terms of weath management; but, to the contrary, promotes a brutal competition among the social classes toward the aquisition of riches where individual liberty and private appetites (ie. greed) prevail over the collective's well-being and corporate sense.

In this picture, the American ghetto becomes a permanent and ever growing reality. To preach self-responsibilty toward "liberation," without changing the modus operandi of the "machine" is at best naive, at worst intellectually dishonest and serving of a vapid ideology though the latter not in your case. The situation demands heavy investment in this weak class, and not just finacial but social and cultural as well, to break the cycle. Though this is something that no society, American or otherwise, in any historical moment has ever done with great vigor. To the contrary we have ample evidence to demonstrate what devestating social consequences result from not investing in the various "ghetto populations" throughout history. I don't see your fear, consequently, in creating a State subsidence dependent class through investment, rather I find it much more allarming to leave them in their squalor while the rest of society looks on unconcerned.

Plato gave us the criteria of the more arduous political-social philosophy, because it goes against the base and egotistical instincts of individual materialism; however, well-off society has always prefered the most convenient approach. And has even invented a propagandistic myth of "individual responsibility" to be excused from having to consider the casualities that a hyper-competative, capitalist regime has inflicted upon the weakest social classes. And so not to have to be burdened with that inconvenient democratic and humanitarian principle of social justice, which only a more rationalist approach to wealth management and how the nation's finacial resources are spent can more fully transform into reality.

That "rich people have always kept their money" seems to me a banal fact that in no way should become an excuse to simply abide by the historical constant. Otherwise we passively accept to still exist in the Middle Ages. The XIX century socialist ideologies perhaps went the furthest in trying to put into effect a rigorous social philosphy, which began in Western thought with the philosophy of the State's managment as conceptualzed by Plato. To bad man is too much of an egoist and materialist to have come up with anything better than the "capitalist machine." Mine was simple an inquiry, in this sense, into where that course is headed...and its social consequences.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
I agree with the idea that there is systematic racism, but differ in my belief regarding the solution. Booker T Washington was maligned in the early part of the 20th century because of his take on what was required for African Americans to rise from the effects of slavery. His take was that African Americans should not seek to become members of white culture, but to proceed more like other immigrant communities. There is a model used by Jews, Ethopians, Chinese, and others that says the way upward is to essentially cut yourself off from outside influence, and build an economy with your own money and labor. Those who have loan to those that need to build, but within the community. If you want to see a current example, look at the Ethopian community in Atlanta. The came, those who could opened businesses that catered to Ethopians. They then loaned money to others who sought to create commerce. They also stressed education and higher learning. They frequent each others businesses over those outside their community, and it works. They are consequently becoming a well regarded part of that community by many, but they are also hated by many in the African American establishment because they do not extend their model to anyone but their own.

I just finished watching a comedy/documentary called "Good Hair" by Chris Rock, and the message in it was strikingly similar to what Washington envisioned. I will briefly discuss it, but you should watch it. It describes the culture of hair in African American women, and African Americans as a whole. It is interesting in a couple of things. First, the market for hair care products is dominated by Asians. Why? Because many of the businesses that started as African American owned were sold when the profit was high enough. Now there are 3 main companies in the market owned by African Americans. The rest are not. Many used to be. It also goes into the idea of the hair itself, and the striving for African American women to have hair more similar to Caucasian hair in straightness and feel. Why? Because the desire is to be part of something that is not inherently part of their culture.

Now, is it smarter for the white majority of our country to seek to right the wrongs of the past by forcing money their way and saying we are sorry for all of the trouble we caused? Or is it more logical and empowering for the African American community to let people like Chris Rock speak a little louder about doing it for themselves. Now, in the early 20th century, that would have been more difficult. However, there is significant capital owned by African Americans, and should they put the model used by other minority communities into action, they would become what Washington envisioned, a community that could not be ignored because of the economic impact they bring to the table.

To require others to change in order for you to succeed is not a philosophy that works on a personal level, or in a larger sociological construct. Rich people have always wanted to keep their money, and have always had the power to do it. Is it logical to believe that will change by shame or governmental dictate? I don't think so.

The African American community is a proud community, filled with people who are resourceful and capable of becoming an extremely significant part of the economy as a whole. In many ways, they have progressed that way more than ever in the last 20 years. Just look at the money and growth in the rap industry. It created itself, with money from inside the community. What has happened in the last 8 years or so, all that changed, and the African American businesses in that industry were sold for profit, and the giveback now comes from corporations that are not part of the community. I fully believe that the solution lies within, and not from without.

Do I believe that there should be a safety net for all, absolutely. Do I believe there should be incentives to encourage business growth, absolutely. Do I believe there should be money for education, absolutely. Do I believe there is a government program that could facilitate the change that is needed? No. As much as I would like the world to change, and for people to change, and for the wealthy to do what is fair, and for people to be more altruistic, it just isn't going to happen. The Capitalism train is moving ahead, and to suggest that it can be stopped is not realistic. The old adage, if you cannot beat them, join them is the solution in my opinion. Will it fix every problem and right every wrong? No. But my personal experience tells me that you go further on personal responsibility than waiting on an offending party to change. I just don't think victimhood is a successful path in life. That does not mean that there were not atrocities, reprehensible laws, systematic forced servitude, systematic racism. There certainly were, and no, I don't believe African Americans should just accept that and move on. I think they should accept that most likely, people will always be prejudiced (and some of the worst racism I heard in school was from African Americans about Hispanics. Things that, were the said about African Americans, would have gotten you expelled and/or beat to a pulp. However, it happened every day, and many saw no problem with it. I will paraphrase Edward Abbey regarding a friend of his, we may feel like scum, but we know who is beneath us.), and seek to create themselves into an economic force that cannot be ignored.

I know you believe what you're writing, but, and I don't mean to give offense, this is one of the most virulently racist things I've seen. This defining by racial group, us/them, is inherently racist. I look at the little ones of Katrina and Haiti and I just see us. Human beings. Gotta go, dentist. I'll check back.

This is Faith Figueroa from the famous Newsweek Katrina cover.

http://www.varleypix.com/gall/neworleansyear0506/0508/0829/pages/27hurricane-katrina-t-0063.htm
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
rhubroma said:
Mine was not a call toward making a tool of "shame" to correct the wrongs of the past, nor was it that the oppressed should rely on that collective shame and their own "victomhood," as you call it, (even if, it must be said, the generational nature of their struggling social status is directly connected to thier forebearers having been causualties of American history) to seek a means toward a better life. Rather it had to do with a simple concept, which is all too often downplayed when not outright inconsidered (because too inconvenient by many to do otherwise); namely the management of wealth. A simple concept, that, in an enlightened society where reason dominates the priority scale and not the self-serving interests of the rich and powerful, allows for a rational approach to how public funds are spent where they are most wanting and toward helping those with the greatest needs.

That the capitalist machine is going along and can't be stopped, is merely an alibi to excuse one from having to take up more rigorous and noble social philosophy where the management of wealth and its more just distribution is dictated by such a rational approach.

Though I have no illusions that men will take it upon themselves to actually live by such a rigorous social philosophy, however, the path toward greater social equality is to found in it. Yet this is a theme that was already addressed, that is reason leading to political and social policies, in the Classical Age in Plato's Republic. 2300 years later we are still there...

Your case about self-realization amoung the Ethipian community of Atlanta, while poigniant, is merley instrumental and doesn't address the reality of the generational poverty among the American black ghetto populations connected to a history of white oppression. On the one hand, because we're talking about a recently arrived imigrant group without the historical burden to bear of blacks in the ghettos, for whom it is simply inconcievable (and I would also say intellectually dishonest) to assert that they can completely by themselves reverse their lowly predicament, without serious attention (and spending) comming from that collectivity with the patrimony that they so fiercely protect and hold onto for themselves. And secondly because the capitalist machine, as you call it, itself doesn't allow for a mass class of the economically feeble to have access to more wealth, because it tends to create (as it is in fact doing) a concentration of extreme wealth in ever fewer hands that leads to more intensive competition (not cooporation) among the middle and lower classes to grabbing the largest piece of the pie leftover by the super rich. The poor thus become ever more emarginaed and increasingly disenfranchised because they enter the competion already with a severe handicap. The capitalist machine doesn't permit cooporation, nor rational decision making, in terms of weath management; but, to the contrary, promotes a brutal competition among the social classes toward the aquisition of riches where individual liberty and private appetites (ie. greed) prevail over the collective's well-being and corporate sense.

In this picture, the American ghetto becomes a permanent and ever growing reality. To preach self-responsibilty toward "liberation," without changing the modus operandi of the "machine" is at best naive, at worst intellectually dishonest and serving of a vapid ideology though the latter not in your case. The situation demands heavy investment in this weak class, and not just finacial but social and cultural as well, to break the cycle. Though this is something that no society, American or otherwise, in any historical moment has ever done with great vigor. To the contrary we have ample evidence to demonstrate what devestating social consequences result from not investing in the various "ghetto populations" throughout history. I don't see your fear, consequently, in creating a State subsidence dependent class through investment, rather I find it much more allarming to leave them in their squalor while the rest of society looks on unconcerned.

Plato gave us the criteria of the more arduous political-social philosophy, because it goes against the base and egotistical instincts of individual materialism; however, well-off society has always prefered the most convenient approach. And has even invented a propagandistic myth of "individual responsibility" to be excused from having to consider the casualities that a hyper-competative, capitalist regime has inflicted upon the weakest social classes. And so not to have to be burdened with that inconvenient democratic and humanitarian principle of social justice, which only a more rationalist approach to wealth management and how the nation's finacial resources are spent can more fully transform into reality.

That "rich people have always kept their money" seems to me a banal fact that in no way should become an excuse to simply abide by the historical constant. Otherwise we passively accept to still exist in the Middle Ages. The XIX century socialist ideologies perhaps went the furthest in trying to put into effect a rigorous social philosphy, which began in Western thought with the philosophy of the State's managment as conceptualzed by Plato. To bad man is too much of an egoist and materialist to have come up with anything better than the "capitalist machine." Mine was simple an inquiry, in this sense, into where that course is headed...and its social consequences.

What you see as excuses are in reality recognition of truths you believe can be changed with better philosophy, or studying Plato. Unfortunately, humans do not change on a larger scale in that way. Your theory is a sound one, but one that will remain a theory because man doesn't work that way. They just don't. I am not saying that from a place of uncaring loft, but from a recognition of the reality I see. I am not saying, "they just need to pull themselves up by their boot straps," and now I will abdicate any responsibility in their plight. I am saying that a better philosophy would be to accept the racism and inequity, and create an economy using the resources in your community and exclude those who practice racism and inequality as much as possible. As a friend of mine likes to say, would you rather be right or happy, because most of the time, you can't be both.

As to the example of the Ethopians, clearly they are not the only community to have used that model. The Chinese, Greek, Italian, Jewish, Irish, and others have put that model into play. Yes I recognize that NONE of their ancestors were slaves in our country. I also do not discount the sociological implications of the difference. What I am saying is that there is a solution that works independent of any prior circumstance. I do not believe that creating "a State subsidence dependent class through investment" is it. Not because it wouldn't work if put into practice, but because it will never happen. Even you seem recognize that fact. If my philosophy of life revolves around changing other people, I will never succeed. People don't work that way. If my philosophy of life revolves around acceptance (not acquiescence to, or approval of) of the inequity and racism, and an unflinching movement to use what is available in my community to create an economy independent as much as possible from working within the institutions that foster such things, then eventually, those outside will have no choice but to accept the place we have build for ourselves.

I am not "preaching self responsibility." There is a subtle, but significant difference in recognizing the reality of circumstance, and acting within the framework in the ways available to you, and having someone tell you to pull yourself up by your boot straps. I support minority owned businesses with my money whenever possible. I am socially conscious enough to know who owns what, and to stay away from big boxes. I cannot change the fact that most of what exists in our economy is owned by a small slice of the population that is predominately white and wealthy. I cannot make them be fair in the treatment of workers, or recognize from where their wealth derives. I am in no position to tell the African American community how to proceed. All I can do is look from the outside and wonder why both groups stay on the same merry-go-round. Actually, I know why. Because the system created (by the privileged class) to help is inefficient, poorly executed, and mostly ineffective, but it seems like the easiest solution. All we need to do is convince everyone to change the inefficiency, poor execution, and ineffectiveness. I just don't think that is going to happen.
 
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Anonymous

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buckwheat said:
I know you believe what you're writing, but, and I don't mean to give offense, this is one of the most virulently racist things I've seen. This defining by racial group, us/them, is inherently racist. I look at the little ones of Katrina and Haiti and I just see us. Human beings. Gotta go, dentist. I'll check back.

This is Faith Figueroa from the famous Newsweek Katrina cover.

http://www.varleypix.com/gall/neworleansyear0506/0508/0829/pages/27hurricane-katrina-t-0063.htm

I am not sure to wit you refer in terms of racism. If you believe the racial groups do not see themselves as distinct in many ways, they you must not talk to may people of a different race than yourself. It would be wonderful if the world would break down the sociological constructs of race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, tribe, etc, and live as one. It won't happen. What you see as racism is merely a recognition of reality. We will never be the united colors of Benetton. We will never have a Coke and a smile with each other as equals. It is not human nature. Should we? Absolutely. Should we strive in our personal lives to see each other as do you? Absolutely. I used to tell my African American students, when I heard them utter racist remarks about Hispanics, "You want to end racism, stop being racist in your own life."

What I practice in my life is not dependent upon the actions or inaction of others. I am socially conscious. I spend my money selectively dependent upon many factors. I don't go to Wal-Mart. I don't buy Smithfield products. I frequent small shops and restaurants owned by the people in my community, most of whom are not my ethnicity. (note, race and ethnicity are different. The first is a social construct enacted by those within and without, the other denotes a differing pair of nucleotides in the dna chain for things like skin color.) I shop at farmer's markets, and buy orgainc food. I eschew products that have corn in them because most of it is a byproduct of genetically altered Monsanto corn. I take personal responsibility to support diversity. I will never change the reality that most people don't do so as intentionally. They just don't, and never will. Acceptance of reality does not mean I made a decision to play along. It just means I quit requiring others to change as a means of action. I act within what I can control, which are my actions. I quit the unfruitful pursuit of trying to change everyone else because I don't have to go to sleep with their conscience, just mine. I vote for people I believe have my view of people, which is one of recognition of the value of every life as equal. Just because I do not believe the welfare system will ever work, does not mean I will vote for Rick Santorum or Sarah Palin. I do vote on philosophy of the individual when it comes to inclusiveness. I don't however believe most of society will do the same, ever. Can I still be happy and effective in my community. Yes. Will everyone still be prejudiced against others, yes. (including me) You want to end prejudice, quit being prejudiced against people you don't know. Me, I accept some of my prejudices, (against people who wear fur coats, or say things like "The Bible says in Leviticus," or insist the Confederate flag is just a symbol of southern pride), but I also accept that the internal effect of my self righteousness is no different than that of the person who is prejudice against people for reasons I find abhorrent. Bob Dylan said "don't hate nothing all except hatred." and he was wrong. Hate affects the perceptions and actions of the individual in the same way regardless of the object of their hate. I accept also that I have hypocritical attitudes galore. So does everyone. Its called being human, and no amount of denial of that fact will change that.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
What you see as excuses are in reality recognition of truths you believe can be changed with better philosophy, or studying Plato. Unfortunately, humans do not change on a larger scale in that way. Your theory is a sound one, but one that will remain a theory because man doesn't work that way. They just don't. I am not saying that from a place of uncaring loft, but from a recognition of the reality I see. I am not saying, "they just need to pull themselves up by their boot straps," and now I will abdicate any responsibility in their plight. I am saying that a better philosophy would be to accept the racism and inequity, and create an economy using the resources in your community and exclude those who practice racism and inequality as much as possible. As a friend of mine likes to say, would you rather be right or happy, because most of the time, you can't be both.

As to the example of the Ethopians, clearly they are not the only community to have used that model. The Chinese, Greek, Italian, Jewish, Irish, and others have put that model into play. Yes I recognize that NONE of their ancestors were slaves in our country. I also do not discount the sociological implications of the difference. What I am saying is that there is a solution that works independent of any prior circumstance. I do not believe that creating "a State subsidence dependent class through investment" is it. Not because it wouldn't work if put into practice, but because it will never happen. Even you seem recognize that fact. If my philosophy of life revolves around changing other people, I will never succeed. People don't work that way. If my philosophy of life revolves around acceptance (not acquiescence to, or approval of) of the inequity and racism, and an unflinching movement to use what is available in my community to create an economy independent as much as possible from working within the institutions that foster such things, then eventually, those outside will have no choice but to accept the place we have build for ourselves.

I am not "preaching self responsibility." There is a subtle, but significant difference in recognizing the reality of circumstance, and acting within the framework in the ways available to you, and having someone tell you to pull yourself up by your boot straps. I support minority owned businesses with my money whenever possible. I am socially conscious enough to know who owns what, and to stay away from big boxes. I cannot change the fact that most of what exists in our economy is owned by a small slice of the population that is predominately white and wealthy. I cannot make them be fair in the treatment of workers, or recognize from where their wealth derives. I am in no position to tell the African American community how to proceed. All I can do is look from the outside and wonder why both groups stay on the same merry-go-round. Actually, I know why. Because the system created (by the privileged class) to help is inefficient, poorly executed, and mostly ineffective, but it seems like the easiest solution. All we need to do is convince everyone to change the inefficiency, poor execution, and ineffectiveness. I just don't think that is going to happen.

I'm well aware of the purely theoretical nature of my analysis. That human beings "don't work that way" is a historical truth which continues to condition the contemporary reality I am completely aware of this too. Inefficiency and greed have much to do with it, but also, and perhaps more decisively, does the modus operandi of our culture, which seems to have placed greater emphasis on individual liberty over collective needs.

Who knows if after another ten thousand years of social evolution humanity will be capable of behaving in a more rational and cooperative manner. What I am certain of is that tacitly accepting the reality of human behavior, as you seem to do, is to give free reign to that inertia with which the capitalist machine seems to have taken control of human destiny itself, as if usurping that pivitol role from the free intellectual will of actual people to condition history and their environment. Plus it smacks of an easy alibi, to be relieved of a much more arduous path. In my miniscule part to contribute, which amounts to absolutely nothing, I resist such a usurpation of one's intellectual property as it is the only true liberty one has. Liberty to intellectual freedom, to "preach," in a manner of speaking, what one believes is correct and not to give in to the merely convenient ideology because to do otherwise only uselessly goes against "how things work."

Besides that way of thinking renders obsolete all those who contributed to that intellectual and moral culture, of which Plato was simply one of the earliest models, which has elevated the human spirit to something of a decidedly more enlightened potential than a pack of stray dogs. So I hope that those voices of reason and philosophical inclination, despite their not being grounded in that reality we all can see, keep reminding us of our folly.
 
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Anonymous

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rhubroma said:
I'm well aware of the purely theoretical nature of my analysis. That human beings "don't work that way" is a historical truth which continues to condition the contemporary reality I am completely aware of this too. Inefficiency and greed have much to do with it, but also, and perhaps more decisively, does the modus operandi of our culture, which seems to have placed greater emphasis on individual liberty over collective needs.

Who knows if after another ten thousand years of social evolution humanity will be capable of behaving in a more rational and cooperative manner. What I am certain of is that tacitly accepting the reality of human behavior, as you seem to do, is to give free reign to that inertia with which the capitalist machine seems to have taken control of human destiny itself, as if usurping that pivitol role from the free intellectual will of actual people to condition history and their environment. Plus it smacks of an easy alibi, to be relieved of a much more arduous path. In my miniscule part to contribute, which amounts to absolutely nothing, I resist such a usurpation of one's intellectual property as it is the only true liberty one has. Liberty to intellectual freedom, to "preach," in a manner of speaking, what one believes is correct and not to give in to the merely convenient ideology because to do otherwise only uselessly goes against "how things work."

Besides that way of thinking renders obsolete all those who contributed to that intellectual and moral culture, of which Plato was simply one of the earliest models, which has elevated the human spirit to something of a decidedly more enlightened potential than a pack of stray dogs. So I hope that those voices of reason and philosophical inclination, despite their not being grounded in that reality we all can see, keep reminding us of our folly.

Because I accept the reality of our society does not mean my actions further those problems. What I am trying to say is that the individual does have the power to alter their actions to fit their world view, they just don't have the ability to change the actions of others. I also think the philosophical content contributed on behalf of the idea of equality does affect society in a positive manner. I simply believe that the Utopian idea of the full benefits of that thought will never manifest themselves in reality in my lifetime. I can only live the life I have.

I also firmly believe that were the African American community to undertake a systematic approach to building an economy focused almost exclusively on commerce conducted within the community, many in their community would become less dependent upon governmental programs. Would that solve the problem of racism? No. Would it help the economic condition of the most impoverished of their community, minimally. Would it however empower them to become an economic and political force much more influential in the overall economy? Yes. I believe another side effect of this would be greater acceptance of their equality by those who do not currently accept that.

There will always be the need for promotion of the general welfare because quite simply, there will always be people who for varying reasons, do not or cannot contribute economically to their own lives be it because of disability, disease, mental illness, addiction, laziness, and other reasons. Those people, in a society as wealthy as ours, should be provided for even if many of them don't "deserve" it. We are responsible for our society whether we like it or not in my opinion. It is like I told a conservative once who was complaining about public schools and funding them "if you don't give it to schools, you will give it to the state to build prisons. Which is more beneficial?" Then again, many conservatives want to end public ANYTHING. I obviously do not agree. I also don't agree with the philosophy that there needs to be a large class of state supported individuals because those people will be robbed of the dignity of self support. Many of the wealthy may be corrupt, uncaring narcissists who's lives end at their front door, but so what? That is their life, and no amount of philosophy will dislodge their morality from the trenches of self service. I do not think that has anything to do with the taking of self responsibility on the part of a community seeking to improve its economic condition. I requires government help, but also personal responsibility for a SOLUTION to work. If we want to wallow around in past mistakes hoping that this time, things will be different, then we will continue to live on a merry-go-round.

Again, Booker T Washington said all of this many years ago, and he was shouted down for it. I believe he was correct in his assessment. He believed that if they created their own community and economy independent of whites, that they would become economically powerful enough that white culture would come to them. I think there is merit to that idea. That is all.
 

buckwheat

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Thoughtforfood said:
I am not sure to wit you refer in terms of racism..

I don't think you're a racist at all, but I think the acceptance of "racial" distinctions of any type is extraordinarily harmful. Much more harmful when espoused by 1 thoughtful person such as yourself, than by 100 ignorant bigots.

Thoughtforfood said:
If you believe the racial groups do not see themselves as distinct in many ways, they you must not talk to may people of a different race than yourself.

I'm white, and where I worked I was the minority amongst blacks, latins. I also worked in areas with large Jewish populations.

Miami is pretty racially diverse and a lot more integrated than suburban NY where I came from 15 years ago. I worked in Queens NY, with a lot of Greeks, Asians, Jews; It's very important to find the common ground and that is our humanity. That comes first.


Thoughtforfood said:
It would be wonderful if the world would break down the sociological constructs of race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, tribe, etc, and live as one. It won't happen.

Maybe not, but we must strive for mutual respect and common ground. I'm a little more hopeful maybe.

Thoughtforfood said:
What you see as racism is merely a recognition of reality. We will never be the united colors of Benetton.

Maybe we can live in a world where an Ethiopeans favorite food is Italian, and where an Asian likes Greek? I see African Americans all the time who like Chinese, Sushi and Italian.


Thoughtforfood said:
We will never have a Coke and a smile with each other as equals. It is not human nature.

With all due respect, I think you're wrong. I see the way little babies of any ethnicity react to laughing and smiling of people of any background. I think the behavior you're talking about is learned.


Thoughtforfood said:
Should we? Absolutely. Should we strive in our personal lives to see each other as do you? Absolutely. I used to tell my African American students, when I heard them utter racist remarks about Hispanics, "You want to end racism, stop being racist in your own life."

I think most problems arise out of pride, loneliness, meanness, and ignorance.

Thoughtforfood said:
What I practice in my life is not dependent upon the actions or inaction of others. I am socially conscious. I spend my money selectively dependent upon many factors. I don't go to Wal-Mart. I don't buy Smithfield products. I frequent small shops and restaurants owned by the people in my community, most of whom are not my ethnicity. (note, race and ethnicity are different. The first is a social construct enacted by those within and without, the other denotes a differing pair of nucleotides in the dna chain for things like skin color.) I shop at farmer's markets, and buy orgainc food. I eschew products that have corn in them because most of it is a byproduct of genetically altered Monsanto corn. I take personal responsibility to support diversity. I will never change the reality that most people don't do so as intentionally. They just don't, and never will. Acceptance of reality does not mean I made a decision to play along. It just means I quit requiring others to change as a means of action. I act within what I can control, which are my actions. I quit the unfruitful pursuit of trying to change everyone else because I don't have to go to sleep with their conscience, just mine. I vote for people I believe have my view of people, which is one of recognition of the value of every life as equal. Just because I do not believe the welfare system will ever work, does not mean I will vote for Rick Santorum or Sarah Palin. I do vote on philosophy of the individual when it comes to inclusiveness. I don't however believe most of society will do the same, ever. Can I still be happy and effective in my community. Yes. Will everyone still be prejudiced against others, yes. (including me) You want to end prejudice, quit being prejudiced against people you don't know. Me, I accept some of my prejudices, (against people who wear fur coats, or say things like "The Bible says in Leviticus," or insist the Confederate flag is just a symbol of southern pride), but I also accept that the internal effect of my self righteousness is no different than that of the person who is prejudice against people for reasons I find abhorrent. Bob Dylan said "don't hate nothing all except hatred." and he was wrong. Hate affects the perceptions and actions of the individual in the same way regardless of the object of their hate. I accept also that I have hypocritical attitudes galore. So does everyone. Its called being human, and no amount of denial of that fact will change that.


I know you're not a racist but if the world is seen thru that prism, race becomes an issue. The only reason I ever recognize any differences is because I recognize the negative impact of paying attention to these things, and also that the govt. which was formed with a social contract in mind is empowered to establish justice in all its forms. If part of that is wealth redistribution, so be it.

I think the most subtle acceptances of conditions as "facts of life" can be much more virulent and dangerous than the outright obscenity of racist behavior like the KKK.

The latter instance is very clearly wrong, but the former can make sense to many people.
 

ravens

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shout_racist.jpg
 
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Anonymous

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nice obama graphic...at least it goes out the ***...bush two must have blown out the nose...like SATAN!
 

ravens

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BroDeal said:
Is this written in English?


I think the translation is 'You know it hits close to home when the Obama fans are even less coherent than usual' ...or words to that effect
 
Mar 18, 2009
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ravens said:
I think the translation is 'You know it hits close to home when the Obama fans are even less coherent than usual' ...or words to that effect

I thought it was something about Bush being chums with satan.

I have seen more literate Egyptian hieroglyphics after they have been eroded by four thousand years of sandstorms.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
ravens said:
I think the translation is 'You know it hits close to home when the Obama fans are even less coherent than usual' ...or words to that effect

I think Obama fans who are not even and can be critical like myself have ****ing PHd's....but you never know do you with loose language raven...? punctuation rules must...make...you...**** your pants...:eek: worse than thought eating his own **** right?
 
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