World Politics

[ToreBear]

...yeah and it is also not uncommon for the Kiev junta to provide video evidence that is way wrong on simple things like the locale of an incident and even the year in which the video was shot ( like the recent use of footage taken during the Georgian incident and presented as "evidence" relating directly to the conflict in The Ukraine to a visiting US delegation )...

...and from the article you presented...

"On January 26, President Petro Poroshenko said that the Ukrainian authorities will submit information about the Mariupol attack and other incidents to the International Criminal Court (ICC). Ukraine should remove the time constraints in its April 2014 declaration accepting the ICC?s jurisdiction, Human Rights Watch said, and join the court?s treaty, the Rome Statute. That would open up the possibility of subjecting a wider range of incidents to ICC scrutiny.

?The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court should not be asked to consider investigating just those incidents cherry-picked by the government,? Solvang said. ?If the Ukrainian government is serious about international justice, it should seek the court?s jurisdiction over all conduct during this conflict, whether by its opponents or its own forces."

...note the use of if in the following " If the Ukrainian government is serious about international justice" part...appears the ICC is not quite as na?ve about realities on the ground as you are...

Cheers

What? You don't want to talk about the attack on Mariupol, not the one in Artemivsk and not the use of cluster munitions on a city? You want to talk about a comment made by Ole Solvang of human rights watch about his impression of the Ukrainians seeming to attempt at cherry picking ICC jurisdiction, and not about the Rocket attacks and civilian casualties the article is about? You want to talk about one misleading video from the "other side" without even providing a link?



I'm guessing you don't want to talk about the use of actors or made up stories by Russian propagandists?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/monitoring/how-russian-tv-uses-psychology-over-ukraine

Only interested in misleading video? How about Russian TV using images of the Russian attack on Mariupol while talking about Ukrainian shelling of Donetsk?
http://www.stopfake.org/en/ntv-chan...as-the-latest-news-about-shelling-of-donetsk/

How about the "Infamous Heroine of the ?Sloviansk Boy?s Crucifixion? Report Found Among the ?Victims? of the Explosion in Donetsk"?
http://www.stopfake.org/en/fake-the...mong-the-victims-of-the-explosion-in-donetsk/
Yep, it's the woman from the BBC story.

 

[movingtarget]

The ceasefire in Ukraine has gone as well as most expected it to. Mariupol residents will be understandably worried.

 

[blutto]

"More than 5,500 people have died in the Ukraine conflict over the past year. German intelligence recently disclosed that the actual death toll could be ten times higher. Most of the victims have been
civilians, including women and children. And most of these civilian casualties have been inflicted by Kiev's military. That assessment is not just based on figures tallied by the officials and media agencies
representing the self-proclaimed independent republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Obviously, the pro-independence cities, towns and villages are not being shelled by self-defence militia from within their own environs. These locations are, by definition, under siege by Kiev's forces. The latter are attempting to ruthlessly wipe out dissent towards the regime, which came to power last February after ousting the elected government of President Viktor Yanukovych. The Donbas eastern
population remains loyal to the deposed Yanukovych and his Party of Regions. They see the Kiev regime under President Poroshenko as illegitimate, brought to power by an illegal coup supported by the United States and European Union members, including Germany, France and Poland."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...from.. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article41066.htm

...and youse may also want to check out the following...

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/21/failing-tonkin-gulf-test-on-ukraine/

...as for the possibility of casualties on the Western side of the fighting line...of course there will be such casualties this is a military conflict after all....but to paint this conflict in plain black and white is simply childish, a level not even our esteemed SoWrong would stoop to....and to wholesale believe the stories coming from the Kiev junta and associated official Western sources, given their record of shovelling $h!te, is silly beyond words...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"US Senator Jim Inhofe earlier this month had to issue an embarrassing retraction after he made claims that he had photographic evidence of Russian T72 tanks in eastern Ukraine. Turns out the photograph supplied to Inhofe by the Kiev regime was of Russian tanks legally in South Ossetia back in 2008 during the NATO-instigated crisis with neighbouring Georgia.

These recent examples of the US indulging in false information and lies are reminiscent of the photograph published last Year in the New York Times purporting to show Russian troops in Ukraine. Again, the story turned out to be completely false and the Times was subsequently compelled to issue an apology.

Nonetheless, that apology has not stopped the American "newspaper of record" continuing with its anti-Russian boilerplate so-called reportage. Just this weekend in a report chock-full with hackneyed
claims of Russia assisting the Donbas rebels, the New York Times actually conceded in one brief sentence that it "had no firsthand evidence" to back up its claims."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...as for the regime that you(TB) are so emamoured with, they are spearheaded by a group that were vicious genocidial thugs at their inception, and they are still vicious genocidal thugs....and as we all know that no matter how hard you try you can't polish a turd...in fact about the only thing that happens is that you get $h!te all over yourself...so why don't you do us all a favour and go have a long hot shower and btw use lots of industrial-grade soap because that smell really sticks...

Edit...

....in retrospect am surprised you (TB) aren't singing the praises of ISIS, who in broad terms is doing the same thing that the neo-nazis that back the Kiev junta aim at doing, that is, eliminate by whatever means necessary ( even the nuclear option has been floated by one of their notable supporters..) a sizeable population in eastern Ukraine that they consider a pestilence that muddies the purity of Ukrainian nationalistic ( and religious ) aspirations...


Cheers

 

[python]

i often write against american foreign policy. in fact some have labeled me for that. whatever. but i really don't understand it. not for lack of honest trying while applying to america the very principles america advocates elsewhere. even if i cant vote, i do care. i live here, my kids were born here. but what i come up with every time another blunder pops up is that the most powerful state's foreign office is run by amateurs and fools.

how else to call people who commit one mistake after another and NEVER lean from them the only mystery is HOW america manages to get away so easily or have others pay for those mistakes and more importantly, WHY americans themselves allow the home-grown imbeciles ruining their great country

enough ranting...here's an article that caused it. i agree with every word, and actually am surprised the respectable western msm let the author speak up...

Washington's Foolish Foreign Policy: American People Must Say No To More Wars
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougban...y-american-people-must-say-no-to-more-wars/2/

In the Balkans the U.S. replaced ethnic cleansing with ethnic cleansing and set a precedent for Russian intervention in Georgia and Ukraine. In Somalia America left chaos unchanged. In Afghanistan the U.S. rightly defenestrated the Taliban but then spent 13 years unsuccessfully attempting to remake that tribal nation. Invading Iraq to destroy nonexistent WMDs cost the lives of 4500 Americans and 200,000 Iraqis, wrecked Iraqi society, loosed radical furies now embodied in the Islamic State, and empowered Iran. The bombing of Libya prolonged a low-tech civil war killing thousands, released weapons throughout the region, triggered a prolonged power struggle in the artificial state, and offered another home for ISIL killers. Yemen?s pro-American government was overthrown despite persistent U.S. support, leading to the collapse of anti-terrorist cooperation, increased Iranian influence, and descent toward civil war. The only certain result of Washington?s new war against the Islamic State is increased jihadist recruiting. Not only has virtually every bombing, invasion, occupation, and other interference made problems worse. Almost every new intervention is an attempt to redress problems created by previous U.S. actions. And every new military step is likely, indeed, almost guaranteed, to create even bigger problems. Which will spark proposals for new interventions likely, indeed, almost guaranteed, to generate new problems, messes, crises, and catastrophes. Which then will yield another round of suggestions for wars, drone strikes, occupations, bombing campaigns, aid transfers, invasions, diplomatic pressure, and other forms of meddling.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Not that their words will make any difference, but we finally have some plain talking by Muslim clerics.

A consortium of one hundred and twenty Islamic Scholars have placed onto the internet an Open Letter to Islamic State (ISIS) leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi denouncing the organization?s violent and extremist actions in the Middle East.

There has been unfortunately much misconception in the Western World that there lacks true dissent to the terrorist outrages in the Muslim World. This letter can serve a secondary goal to educate those in other cultures having concerns.

Here follows the contents of the Open Letter:

Executive Summary

It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur?an?or part of a verse?to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur?an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas,and one cannot ?cherry-pick? Qur?anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur?an and Hadith.
It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.
It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari?ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.
It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.
It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.
It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.
It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.
Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.
It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.
It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat?in any way?Christians or any ?People of the Scripture?.
It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.
The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.
It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.
It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.
It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.
It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud ) without following the correct procedures that ensure justice and mercy.
It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.
It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.
It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God.
It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.
Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler and not allowing people to pray.
It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.
Loyalty to one?s nation is permissible in Islam.
After the death of the Prophet, Islam does not require anyone to emigrate anywhere.

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/

 

[blutto]

....file under quelle surprise ...recent development in the progress of the glorious revolution...seems the magic of the market place will very soon begin to wash over The Ukraine....and turn it into yet another miracle of Western style economic rescue, sorta like Greece, but bigger and richer in stuff that can be bought and sold by folks with lots of money....this from the latest Pepe Escobar piece....

"The $17 billion IMF loan that was miraculously produced on the eve of Minsk 2.0 not only allows the oligarchs in Kiev to keep prosecuting ? by proxy ? an Empire of Chaos war against Russia. It came with a key conditionality; Ukraine must imperatively be ravaged by hardcore biotech farming. And what a fabulous agricultural prize; Ukraine is the world?s third largest exporter of corn, the fifth largest exporter of wheat, with a deep, rich, black soil where anything, literally, can grow. The winners, predictably, will be the usual corporate GMO suspects ? from seed producers Monsanto and Dupont to farm equipment dealer, Deere."

....from... http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article41080.htm

Cheers

 

[ToreBear]

I apologize for not replying sooner, but answering your post took a little digging, and I didn't really have enough time until now.

More than 5,500 people have died in the Ukraine conflict over the past year. German intelligence recently disclosed that the actual death toll could be ten times higher. Most of the victims have been
civilians, including women and children. And most of these civilian casualties have been inflicted by Kiev's military. That assessment is not just based on figures tallied by the officials and media agencies
representing the self-proclaimed independent republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Obviously, the pro-independence cities, towns and villages are not being shelled by self-defence militia from within their own environs. These locations are, by definition, under siege by Kiev's forces. The latter are attempting to ruthlessly wipe out dissent......" char limit...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...from.. http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle41066.htm

Oh god, do people actually read this? It so intense. It like someone is force feeding me propaganda while reading this. Thanks for underlining the relevant stuff so I didn't have to read the entire article.
The source for this information is this article:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...rheitskreise-bis-zu-50-000-tote-13416132.html
Frankfurter Allgemeinen Sonntagszeitung

But the information in your article seems to have been twisted a little, with some parts added. As far as I understood this, the paper said sources in German intelligence circles thought the death toll was ten times higher than the official Ukrainian and UN numbers. The sentence "And most of these civilian casualties have been inflicted by Kiev's military." were added by Finian Cunningham(if he really wrote the article that is)

This is just a crude propaganda trick to have a dash of truth then add on as many lies as possible(your article seems to have forgotten the possible bit, since here it's just too much).

and youse may also want to check out the following...

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/2...st-on-ukraine/

Sorry, propaganda overdose. I can only take so much disinformation a day, and your first article used up this weeks allotment.

...as for the possibility of casualties on the Western side of the fighting line...of course there will be such casualties this is a military conflict after all....but to paint this conflict in plain black and white is simply childish, a level not even our esteemed SoWrong would stoop to....and to wholesale believe the stories coming from the Kiev junta and associated official Western sources, given their record of shovelling $h!te, is silly beyond words...

Ah the old counterattack. Start with Willy Wonka references, add a dash of Kiev Junta etc. and talk of childishness. Cute. So a few dozen civilians getting killed by cluster munitions or a grad barrage in Kramatorsk and Mariupol is just a little collateral now?. Ok, and you point out the untrustworthiness of Kiev, international media, governments etc given their record.... as compared to Russian sources? Yep, it's not like Russian journalists get beat up trying to visit the burials of Russian airborne troops suffering "training accidents" in the Rostov region. Oh wait....

"US Senator Jim Inhofe earlier this month had to issue an embarrassing retraction after he made claims that he had photographic evidence of Russian T72 tanks in eastern Ukraine. Turns out the photograph supplied to Inhofe by the Kiev regime was of Russian tanks legally in South Ossetia back in 2008 during the NATO-instigated crisis with neighbouring Georgia.

These recent examples of the US indulging in false information and lies are reminiscent of the photograph published last Year in the New York Times purporting to show Russian troops in Ukraine. Again, the story turned out to be completely false and the Times was subsequently compelled to issue an apology.

Nonetheless, that apology has not stopped the American "newspaper of record" continuing with its anti-Russian boilerplate so-called reportage. Just this weekend in a report chock-full with hackneyed
claims of Russia assisting the Donbas rebels, the New York Times actually conceded in one brief sentence that it "had no firsthand evidence" to back up its claims."

What, no video? Love this quote though "of Russian tanks legally in South Ossetia back in 2008 during the NATO-instigated". Cant resist adding more propaganda eh. Well that was an interesting situation of Russia lucking into just having exercised an invasion of Georgia with all the needed troops on standby just when Nato instigated an attack on South Ossetia. Ah shucks...

As for the video that became some pictures. Here is the story:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/h...tion-that-gave-misleading-photos-t#.vbXdoVY6y

Seems like an honest mistake in communication. One box of photos of Russian armor to show the types they face, and one shoving pictures of Ukrainian soldiers killed by fuel air explosives, also called thermobaric weapons that the Russians are using in the Donbass.

Here:
http://freebeacon.com/national-secu...ssian-military-in-ukraine-arming-separatists/
Examples about the types of armor at the top, then incinerated Ukrainians at the bottom from the current conflict. That stuff really is nasty.

But since it's a rare example of something being inaccurate or possibly even Ukrainian propaganda, it has to be seized upon and treasured like the rarity it is. Unlike the Russian propaganda which is just too numerous to mention. I get that.

...as for the regime that you(TB) are so emamoured with, they are spearheaded by a group that were vicious genocidial thugs at their inception, and they are still vicious genocidal thugs....and as we all know that no matter how hard you try you can't polish a turd...in fact about the only thing that happens is that you get $h!te all over yourself...so why don't you do us all a favour and go have a long hot shower and btw use lots of industrial-grade soap because that smell really sticks...

....in retrospect am surprised you (TB) aren't singing the praises of ISIS, who in broad terms is doing the same thing that the neo-nazis that back the Kiev junta aim at doing, that is, eliminate by whatever means necessary ( even the nuclear option has been floated by one of their notable supporters..) a sizeable population in eastern Ukraine that they consider a pestilence that muddies the purity of Ukrainian nationalistic ( and religious ) aspirations...

That's a bit circular isn't it? So we are back to talking about the Kiev Nazis, correction genocidal Nazis intent of purifying Ukraine again. Do you actually believe this stuff?

I know full well that the prevalence of neo nazis is exponentially higher in Russia than in Ukraine. I know Putin uses these groups as a basis of his power. There are various groups, but at the moment IIRC the most powerfull group are the fascists, who combine orthodoxy with traditional values, a little antisemitism etc. "Russian national unity movement" is also somewhat powerfull which are more of the neo nazi kind. Ps "election monitors" in crimea = a whos who of far right parties.

Or are you annoyed that I'm ruining your current setup? I replied to you this time because I wanted to test my suspicion. The last time I interacted with you I learned that it was pointless. Even a minor error on your part(mixing up Bahrain and Qatar) did not elicit any correction or anything even remotely close. It could be you have an incredibly hard time admitting mistakes, but I sensed none of that. Just a wish to drag a discussion on to more conspiracy stuff. It almost seemed like you didn't understand what you were posting.

I was vacillating between conspiracy theorist or a disinformation agent. I've come down on the latter. It's a nice set up you have been having for quite some time. I assume you get paid for page views or something like that? Well no need to answer.

If you are only a conspiracy theorist I would apologize. But in this case I'm pretty sure you are not. Or if you are, you get payed for doing what you love. So kudos to you.

Now me saying this is not against forum rules AFAIK nor is I believe posting propaganda, or in your case propaganda and disinformation. So we are both safe. And in the end those who want to believe you will ignore me so you might as well carry on.



Some background information for those interested in learning more:

The author of the article on top Finian Cunningham seems linked to globalresearch.ca which is part of a wider network. Some right wing Italian groups are also mentioned:
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.no/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

More on the payment of and use of online trolls/propagandists etc:
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-the-kremlins-growing-army-of-internet-trolls/
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america#.chyrjoZ3X
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-is-not-charlie/514369.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...n-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/

This one is kind of funny;
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/02/18/trolling-russias-hearts-and-minds/


Cheers
ToreBear

 

[blutto]

I apologize for not replying sooner, but answering your post took a little digging, and I didn't really have enough time until now.


Oh god, do people actually read this? It so intense. It like someone is force feeding me propaganda while reading this. Thanks for underlining the relevant stuff so I didn't have to read the entire article.
The source for this information is this article:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...rheitskreise-bis-zu-50-000-tote-13416132.html
Frankfurter Allgemeinen Sonntagszeitung

But the information in your article seems to have been twisted a little, with some parts added. As far as I understood this, the paper said sources in German intelligence circles thought the death toll was ten times higher than the official Ukrainian and UN numbers. The sentence "And most of these civilian casualties have been inflicted by Kiev's military." were added by Finian Cunningham(if he really wrote the article that is)

This is just a crude propaganda trick to have a dash of truth then add on as many lies as possible(your article seems to have forgotten the possible bit, since here it's just too much).



Sorry, propaganda overdose. I can only take so much disinformation a day, and your first article used up this weeks allotment.



Ah the old counterattack. Start with Willy Wonka references, add a dash of Kiev Junta etc. and talk of childishness. Cute. So a few dozen civilians getting killed by cluster munitions or a grad barrage in Kramatorsk and Mariupol is just a little collateral now?. Ok, and you point out the untrustworthiness of Kiev, international media, governments etc given their record.... as compared to Russian sources? Yep, it's not like Russian journalists get beat up trying to visit the burials of Russian airborne troops suffering "training accidents" in the Rostov region. Oh wait....



What, no video? Love this quote though "of Russian tanks legally in South Ossetia back in 2008 during the NATO-instigated". Cant resist adding more propaganda eh. Well that was an interesting situation of Russia lucking into just having exercised an invasion of Georgia with all the needed troops on standby just when Nato instigated an attack on South Ossetia. Ah shucks...

As for the video that became some pictures. Here is the story:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/h...tion-that-gave-misleading-photos-t#.vbXdoVY6y

Seems like an honest mistake in communication. One box of photos of Russian armor to show the types they face, and one shoving pictures of Ukrainian soldiers killed by fuel air explosives, also called thermobaric weapons that the Russians are using in the Donbass.

Here:
http://freebeacon.com/national-secu...ssian-military-in-ukraine-arming-separatists/
Examples about the types of armor at the top, then incinerated Ukrainians at the bottom from the current conflict. That stuff really is nasty.

But since it's a rare example of something being inaccurate or possibly even Ukrainian propaganda, it has to be seized upon and treasured like the rarity it is. Unlike the Russian propaganda which is just too numerous to mention. I get that.



That's a bit circular isn't it? So we are back to talking about the Kiev Nazis, correction genocidal Nazis intent of purifying Ukraine again. Do you actually believe this stuff?

I know full well that the prevalence of neo nazis is exponentially higher in Russia than in Ukraine. I know Putin uses these groups as a basis of his power. There are various groups, but at the moment IIRC the most powerfull group are the fascists, who combine orthodoxy with traditional values, a little antisemitism etc. "Russian national unity movement" is also somewhat powerfull which are more of the neo nazi kind. Ps "election monitors" in crimea = a whos who of far right parties.

Or are you annoyed that I'm ruining your current setup? I replied to you this time because I wanted to test my suspicion. The last time I interacted with you I learned that it was pointless. Even a minor error on your part(mixing up Bahrain and Qatar) did not elicit any correction or anything even remotely close. It could be you have an incredibly hard time admitting mistakes, but I sensed none of that. Just a wish to drag a discussion on to more conspiracy stuff. It almost seemed like you didn't understand what you were posting.

I was vacillating between conspiracy theorist or a disinformation agent. I've come down on the latter. It's a nice set up you have been having for quite some time. I assume you get paid for page views or something like that? Well no need to answer.

If you are only a conspiracy theorist I would apologize. But in this case I'm pretty sure you are not. Or if you are, you get payed for doing what you love. So kudos to you.

Now me saying this is not against forum rules AFAIK nor is I believe posting propaganda, or in your case propaganda and disinformation. So we are both safe. And in the end those who want to believe you will ignore me so you might as well carry on.



Some background information for those interested in learning more:

The author of the article on top Finian Cunningham seems linked to globalresearch.ca which is part of a wider network. Some right wing Italian groups are also mentioned:
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.no/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

More on the payment of and use of online trolls/propagandists etc:
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-the-kremlins-growing-army-of-internet-trolls/
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america#.chyrjoZ3X
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-is-not-charlie/514369.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...n-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/

This one is kind of funny;
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/02/18/trolling-russias-hearts-and-minds/


Cheers
ToreBear

...first, appreciate the effort you have made to show me the error of my ways....

...but here are a few things you should be aware of....as a former teacher of history at the university level I think I understand how to read a source....as a observer of Western media for several decades I also know how the winds blow across our media sources....and I also how that media has performed ( especially over the past 15 years or so ) and to be honest their performance has been deplorable and shown to be largely untrustworthy....

....I also know that Russian media has to be treated with as much skepticism...

...however I am of Ukrainian heritage and have been well connected to Ukrainian culture here in Canada and we maintain contacts with family in The Ukraine so I believe I have some good grounding in the Ukrainian story....

....one of those grounding points is a cousin who was a Colonel in both the Russian and Ukrainian army ( and from what he tells us he is still fairly well connected with people within the military and as a business man understands the economics of the country)....his perspective, and do understand he is a Ukrainian nationalist, is the one that most informs me on the situation in The Ukraine....now I don't know where you lay down to sleep at night but one would have very lucky to be in a position to comment on the situation better than he....

...sooo.... the story that I see as more legitimate, and substantiated by my cousin, is much much closer to the position taken by the sources I have used than the ones you are putting forward...are you absolutely wrong?...no...but the general thrust of your argument is quite a way off and doesn't well reflect the reality on the ground...just the reality the Western media is painting for you ( and coincidently just as they did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria to just disastrous effect...I dearly do not want The Ukraine to become another disastrous effect... )...

Cheers

 

[rhubroma]

Anyway you look at it, I don't like Putin.

Now this has nothing to do with the West as a model, for it is not.

Whatever the outcome the minglings that we are dealing with are resulting in children being mutilated! Over what exactly?

 

[python]

Anyway you look at it, I don't like Putin.

Now this has nothing to do with the West as a model, for it is not.

Whatever the outcome the minglings that we are dealing with are resulting in children being mutilated! Over what exactly?

c'mon, rhubroma. children have been mutilated in at least a dozen of conflicts
fought by america and it's nato puppets. iraq, afghanistan, lybia, serbia, syria....

pls, point me to a single case where the children of the american or western parents were mutilated due to a foreign power waging wars on the soil or borders of those powers.

unfortunately, kids are and always were the victims of political ambitions everywhere...your plea without considering the larger picture as to the sources of the crimes makes no sense to me.

 

[blutto]

Anyway you look at it, I don't like Putin.

....yeah I don't either but I have to say that in the Ukrainian situation he seems somewhat less of a d!ckhead than all the other utter d!ckheads that are associated with how that situation is unfolding? unravelling? disintegrating?...( and given my upbringing I can't believe that I'm looking at someone like Putin to somehow keep that mess from getting way more of a mess...strange times indeed....)...

Cheers

 

[Amsterhammer]

i often write against american foreign policy. in fact some have labeled me for that. whatever. but i really don't understand it. not for lack of honest trying while applying to america the very principles america advocates elsewhere. even if i cant vote, i do care. i live here, my kids were born here. but what i come up with every time another blunder pops up is that the most powerful state's foreign office is run by amateurs and fools.

The State Dept. has been considered inept by those who know its workings for as long as I can remember, that's going back to the 60's. I distinctly remember numerous Europeans scoffing at the 'amateurish' nature of US foreign policy and diplomacy.

As has been demonstrated with tragic regularity for at least half a century now.

 

[python]

The State Dept. has been considered inept by those who know its workings for as long as I can remember, that's going back to the 60's. I distinctly remember numerous Europeans scoffing at the 'amateurish' nature of US foreign policy and diplomacy.

As has been demonstrated with tragic regularity for at least half a century now.

why do you think this is happening with such regularity for so long ?

is it a question of reward and talent ?

i have my ideas but would be interested in hearing others....

 

[blutto]

why do you think this is happening with such regularity for so long ?

is it a question of reward and talent ?

i have my ideas but would be interested in hearing others....

...well, for starters there is the fact that important State Department initiatives and recommendations have often been over-ridden by other more influential parts of the government...in that regard Viet Nam, China and Iran come to mind, though there are many many more instances of same...

Cheers

 

[rhubroma]

Just because this came up with reference to Rome. Even if, as if to not make us forget, after all the economic preoccupation there is that rather large vexing "pain in the a$$." As if only the economic state matters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/opinion/thomas-friedman-isis-heads-to-rome.html?_r=0Il

 

[blutto]

Just because this came up with reference to Rome. Even if, as if to not make us forget, after all the economic preoccupation there is that rather large vexing "pain in the a$$." As if only the economic state matters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/opinion/thomas-friedman-isis-heads-to-rome.html?_r=0Il

...bingo!...we have a winner!...

" Sarah Chayes, who long worked in Afghanistan and has written an important book ? ?Thieves of State: Why Corruption Threatens Global Security? ? about how government corruption helped turn Afghans away from us and from the pro-U.S. Afghan regime, argues that ?nothing feeds extremism more than the in-your-face corruption and injustice? that some of America?s closest Middle East allies administer daily to their people."

...and...

" The Arab peoples have been mostly ruled by radicals or reactionaries. And without the prospect of a legitimate politics ?that genuinely responds to popular grievances,? no amount of top-down attempts to engender moderate Islam will succeed, he added.

Islam has no Vatican to decree whose Islam is authentic, so it emerges differently in different contexts."

...and...

"That’s why ISIS is not just an Islam problem and not just a “root causes” problem. ISIS is a product of decades of failed governance in the Arab world and ****stan and centuries of a calcification of Arab Islam. They feed off each other. Those who claim it’s just one or the other are dead wrong.

So, to defeat ISIS and not see another emerge, you need to: wipe out its leadership; enlist Muslims to discredit the very real, popular, extremist versions of Islam coming out of Saudi Arabia and ****stan; stem the injustice, corruption, sectarianism and state failure now rampant in the Arab world and ****stan; and carve out for Iraqi Sunnis their own autonomous region of Iraq and a share of its oil wealth, just like the Kurds have. I know: sounds impossible. But this problem is very deep. This is the only route to a more moderate Arab Islam — as well as to fewer young men and women looking for dignity in all the wrong places."

...gee, when I grow up I hope I get to be that smart...that was most excellent..

Cheers

 

[RetroActive]

...bingo!...we have a winner!...

" Sarah Chayes, who long worked in Afghanistan and has written an important book ? ?Thieves of State: Why Corruption Threatens Global Security? ? about how government corruption helped turn Afghans away from us and from the pro-U.S. Afghan regime, argues that ?nothing feeds extremism more than the in-your-face corruption and injustice? that some of America?s closest Middle East allies administer daily to their people."

...and...

" The Arab peoples have been mostly ruled by radicals or reactionaries. And without the prospect of a legitimate politics ?that genuinely responds to popular grievances,? no amount of top-down attempts to engender moderate Islam will succeed, he added.

Islam has no Vatican to decree whose Islam is authentic, so it emerges differently in different contexts."

...and...

"That?s why ISIS is not just an Islam problem and not just a ?root causes? problem. ISIS is a product of decades of failed governance in the Arab world and ****stan and centuries of a calcification of Arab Islam. They feed off each other. Those who claim it?s just one or the other are dead wrong.

So, to defeat ISIS and not see another emerge, you need to: wipe out its leadership; enlist Muslims to discredit the very real, popular, extremist versions of Islam coming out of Saudi Arabia and ****stan; stem the injustice, corruption, sectarianism and state failure now rampant in the Arab world and ****stan; and carve out for Iraqi Sunnis their own autonomous region of Iraq and a share of its oil wealth, just like the Kurds have. I know: sounds impossible. But this problem is very deep. This is the only route to a more moderate Arab Islam ? as well as to fewer young men and women looking for dignity in all the wrong places."

...gee, when I grow up I hope I get to be that smart...that was most excellent..

Cheers

So more of the same...

The moral west will never learn. Will the mission to civilize ever end? Look another windmill...

?[The] nation state as a fundamental unit of man?s organized life has ceased to be the principal creative force. International banks and multinational corporations are acting and planning in terms that are far in advance of the political concepts of the nation state.?

Ziggy B.

?Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ?internationalists? and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure?one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.?

D. Rockefeller

What does the map of the ME look like today? Give it a few minutes...

 

[blutto]

I apologize for not replying sooner, but answering your post took a little digging, and I didn't really have enough time until now.


Oh god, do people actually read this? It so intense. It like someone is force feeding me propaganda while reading this. Thanks for underlining the relevant stuff so I didn't have to read the entire article.
The source for this information is this article:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...rheitskreise-bis-zu-50-000-tote-13416132.html
Frankfurter Allgemeinen Sonntagszeitung

But the information in your article seems to have been twisted a little, with some parts added. As far as I understood this, the paper said sources in German intelligence circles thought the death toll was ten times higher than the official Ukrainian and UN numbers. The sentence "And most of these civilian casualties have been inflicted by Kiev's military." were added by Finian Cunningham(if he really wrote the article that is)

This is just a crude propaganda trick to have a dash of truth then add on as many lies as possible(your article seems to have forgotten the possible bit, since here it's just too much).



Sorry, propaganda overdose. I can only take so much disinformation a day, and your first article used up this weeks allotment.



Ah the old counterattack. Start with Willy Wonka references, add a dash of Kiev Junta etc. and talk of childishness. Cute. So a few dozen civilians getting killed by cluster munitions or a grad barrage in Kramatorsk and Mariupol is just a little collateral now?. Ok, and you point out the untrustworthiness of Kiev, international media, governments etc given their record.... as compared to Russian sources? Yep, it's not like Russian journalists get beat up trying to visit the burials of Russian airborne troops suffering "training accidents" in the Rostov region. Oh wait....



What, no video? Love this quote though "of Russian tanks legally in South Ossetia back in 2008 during the NATO-instigated". Cant resist adding more propaganda eh. Well that was an interesting situation of Russia lucking into just having exercised an invasion of Georgia with all the needed troops on standby just when Nato instigated an attack on South Ossetia. Ah shucks...

As for the video that became some pictures. Here is the story:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/h...tion-that-gave-misleading-photos-t#.vbXdoVY6y

Seems like an honest mistake in communication. One box of photos of Russian armor to show the types they face, and one shoving pictures of Ukrainian soldiers killed by fuel air explosives, also called thermobaric weapons that the Russians are using in the Donbass.

Here:
http://freebeacon.com/national-secu...ssian-military-in-ukraine-arming-separatists/
Examples about the types of armor at the top, then incinerated Ukrainians at the bottom from the current conflict. That stuff really is nasty.

But since it's a rare example of something being inaccurate or possibly even Ukrainian propaganda, it has to be seized upon and treasured like the rarity it is. Unlike the Russian propaganda which is just too numerous to mention. I get that.



That's a bit circular isn't it? So we are back to talking about the Kiev Nazis, correction genocidal Nazis intent of purifying Ukraine again. Do you actually believe this stuff?

I know full well that the prevalence of neo nazis is exponentially higher in Russia than in Ukraine. I know Putin uses these groups as a basis of his power. There are various groups, but at the moment IIRC the most powerfull group are the fascists, who combine orthodoxy with traditional values, a little antisemitism etc. "Russian national unity movement" is also somewhat powerfull which are more of the neo nazi kind. Ps "election monitors" in crimea = a whos who of far right parties.

Or are you annoyed that I'm ruining your current setup? I replied to you this time because I wanted to test my suspicion. The last time I interacted with you I learned that it was pointless. Even a minor error on your part(mixing up Bahrain and Qatar) did not elicit any correction or anything even remotely close. It could be you have an incredibly hard time admitting mistakes, but I sensed none of that. Just a wish to drag a discussion on to more conspiracy stuff. It almost seemed like you didn't understand what you were posting.

I was vacillating between conspiracy theorist or a disinformation agent. I've come down on the latter. It's a nice set up you have been having for quite some time. I assume you get paid for page views or something like that? Well no need to answer.

If you are only a conspiracy theorist I would apologize. But in this case I'm pretty sure you are not. Or if you are, you get payed for doing what you love. So kudos to you.

Now me saying this is not against forum rules AFAIK nor is I believe posting propaganda, or in your case propaganda and disinformation. So we are both safe. And in the end those who want to believe you will ignore me so you might as well carry on.



Some background information for those interested in learning more:

The author of the article on top Finian Cunningham seems linked to globalresearch.ca which is part of a wider network. Some right wing Italian groups are also mentioned:
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.no/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

More on the payment of and use of online trolls/propagandists etc:
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-the-kremlins-growing-army-of-internet-trolls/
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america#.chyrjoZ3X
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-kremlins-troll-army/375932/
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-is-not-charlie/514369.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...n-the-ukraine-propaganda-war-internet-trolls/

This one is kind of funny;
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/02/18/trolling-russias-hearts-and-minds/


Cheers
ToreBear

...first, appreciate the effort you have made to show me the error of my ways....

...but here are a few things you should be aware of....as a former teacher of history at the university level I think I understand how to read a source....as a observer of Western media for several decades I also know how the winds blow across our media sources....and I have also seen how that media has performed ( especially over the past 15 years or so ) and to be honest their performance has been deplorable and shown to be largely untrustworthy ( though with some rare exceptions )....

....I also know that Russian media has to be treated with as much skepticism....and as for the absolutely rubbish that is routinely released by the Kiev junta, well, it routinely is plumbing the depths of some very putrid pond of misinformation and simply should not to be trusted, full stop....

...so thank you for your concern but I'll continue to troddle along the path I have been following and be guided by the voices that I trust....

...and I understand YMMV....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

...here is a look at way the guys in the White Hats operate their war on terra...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHY DOES THE FBI HAVE TO MANUFACTURE ITS OWN PLOTS IF TERRORISM AND ISIS ARE SUCH GRAVE THREATS?
By Glenn Greenwald * The Intercept * Feb. 26, 2015

The FBI and major media outlets yesterday trumpeted the agency?s latest counterterrorism triumph: the arrest of three Brooklyn men, ages 19 to 30, on charges of conspiring to travel to Syria to fight for ISIS (photo of joint FBI/NYPD press conference, above). As my colleague Murtaza Hussain ably documents, ?it appears that none of the three men was in any condition to travel or support the Islamic State, without help from the FBI informant.? One of the frightening terrorist villains told the FBI informant that, beyond having no money, he had encountered a significant problem in following through on the FBI?s plot: his mom had taken away his passport. Noting the bizarre and unhinged ranting of one of the suspects, Hussain noted on Twitter that this case ?sounds like another victory for the FBI over the mentally ill.?

In this regard, this latest arrest appears to be quite similar to the overwhelming majority of terrorism arrests the FBI has proudly touted over the last decade. As my colleague Andrew Fishman and I wrote last month ? after the FBI manipulated a 20-year-old loner who lived with his parents into allegedly agreeing to join an FBI-created plot to attack the Capitol ? these cases follow a very clear pattern:



The known facts from this latest case seem to fit well within a now-familiar FBI pattern whereby the agency does not disrupt planned domestic terror attacks but rather creates them, then publicly praises itself for stopping its own plots.

First, they target a Muslim: not due to any evidence of intent or capability to engage in terrorism, but rather for the ?radical? political views he expresses. In most cases, the Muslim targeted by the FBI is a very young (late teens, early 20s), adrift, unemployed loner who has shown no signs of mastering basic life functions, let alone carrying out a serious terror attack, and has no known involvement with actual terrorist groups.

They then find another Muslim who is highly motivated to help disrupt a ?terror plot?: either because they?re being paid substantial sums of money by the FBI or because (as appears to be the case here) they are charged with some unrelated crime and are desperate to please the FBI in exchange for leniency (or both). The FBI then gives the informant a detailed attack plan, and sometimes even the money and other instruments to carry it out, and the informant then shares all of that with the target. Typically, the informant also induces, lures, cajoles, and persuades the target to agree to carry out the FBI-designed plot. In some instances where the target refuses to go along, they have their informant offer huge cash inducements to the impoverished target.

Once they finally get the target to agree, the FBI swoops in at the last minute, arrests the target, issues a press release praising themselves for disrupting a dangerous attack (which it conceived of, funded, and recruited the operatives for), and the DOJ and federal judges send their target to prison for years or even decades (where they are kept in special GITMO-like units). Subservient U.S. courts uphold the charges by applying such a broad and permissive interpretation of ?entrapment? that it could almost never be successfully invoked.


Once again, we should all pause for a moment to thank the brave men and women of the FBI for saving us from their own terror plots.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/26/fbi-manufacture-plots-terrorism-isis-grave-threats/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers

 

[movingtarget]

Putin wants to be involved in the the investigation of Boris Nemtsov's murder. He said the same thing when Anna Politovskaya was murdered. I think that one was pinned on some local drunk or street person. Nemtsov predicted his own death as did his mother and many of Politkovskaya's colleagues predicted the same for her. To be murdered so close to the Kremlin sounds like someone is sending a message to others who think along the same lines as Nemtsov. Interesting that he was supposed to lead a rally opposing the war in Ukraine but did not get there.

 

[Merckx index]

Putin critic assassinated:

World leaders led by David Cameron and Barack Obama have condemned the killing of prominent Russian opposition politician Boris Nemtsov, who was shot dead in Moscow on Friday evening.

Nemtsov, a former deputy prime minister and a sharp critic of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, was reportedly shot four times in the back by a killer in a passing car.

Nemtsov, 55, was deputy prime minister during the 1990s in the government of Boris Yeltsin. He had written a number of reports in recent years linking Putin and his inner circle to corruption, and was one of the most well-known politicians among Russia?s small and beleaguered opposition.

Atheist writer hacked to death:

A prominent American blogger of Bangladeshi origin has been hacked to death with machetes by unidentified assailants in Dhaka, after he allegedly received threats from Islamists.

The body of Avijit Roy, founder of the Mukto-Mona (Free-mind) blog site ? which champions liberal secular writing in the Muslim-majority nation ? was found covered in blood after an attack that also left his wife critically wounded.

Atheist blogger Ahmed Rajib Haider was hacked to death in 2013 by members of a little-known Islamist militant group, triggering nationwide protests by tens of thousands of secular activists.

?The pattern of the killing appeared to be the same as that of previous attack on a celebrated writer,? said Shiblee Noman, assistant commissioner of Dhaka police. ?It seems it was carried out by a reactionary fundamentalist group.?

After Haider?s death, Bangladesh?s hardline Islamist groups started to protest against other campaigning bloggers, calling a series of nationwide strikes to demand their deaths, accusing them of blasphemy.

The secular government of the Bangladeshi prime minister, Sheikh Hasina, reacted by arresting some atheist bloggers.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Putin wants to be involved in the the investigation of Boris Nemtsov's murder. He said the same thing when Anna Politovskaya was murdered. I think that one was pinned on some local drunk or street person. Nemtsov predicted his own death as did his mother and many of Politkovskaya's colleagues predicted the same for her. To be murdered so close to the Kremlin sounds like someone is sending a message to others who think along the same lines as Nemtsov. Interesting that he was supposed to lead a rally opposing the war in Ukraine but did not get there.

Of COURSE he does, otherwise the trail might lead to....Vlad..

 

[python]

Of COURSE he does, otherwise the trail might lead to....Vlad..

do you think vlad was drunk when he decided to kill an opposition politician on no less than red square... roughly 100 meters from his kremlin headquarters ? or you think vlad did it himself with a super sniper weapon, you know, from a kremlin tower ?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

do you think vlad was drunk when he decided to kill an opposition politician on no less than red square... roughly 100 meters from his kremlin headquarters ? or you think vlad did it himself with a super sniper weapon, you know, from a kremlin tower ?

Do you really believe Vlad wasn't involved?

 

[MBotero]

Do you really believe Vlad wasn't involved?

This one screams false flag,Nemtsov was no real threat for Putin,he gains nothing from his death.Considering Putin's former job i don't think he would have ordered the killing of this guy at his doorstep,two days before he was suppose to lead a Sunday protest against him.