World Politics

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

2) If Russia was so concerned with the food shortage, maybe they shouldn't have bombed the UN humanitarian convoy. Hard to argue fog of war with that one, but I am sure that someone will dutifully try to do so.

You've got to be more careful with how you digest the "news". A lot of it is propaganda these days and gets repeated so often that it takes place of evidence and facts. Entering the mainstream consciousness it gets accepted as fact, especially because it fits the overall narrative. In this case Russia = bad.

Did Russia bomb that UN convoy?

"The air forces of Russia and Syria did not conduct any strikes against the UN aid convoy in the southwestern outskirts of Aleppo..."

"...the White Helmets that operates in rebel-held areas, posted images of several vehicles on fire"

"...the video recordings of the so-called activists from the scene and found no signs that any munitions hit the convoy..."

"Everything shown on the video is the direct consequence of the cargo catching fire, and this began in a strange way simultaneously with militants carrying out a massive offensive in Aleppo"

"The Americans are firmly blaming the Russians..."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/09/suspends-syria-aid-convoy-bombed-160920080213025.html

So who are you going to believe? The White Helmets and their shonky video, or the Russians? I know. You've been told repeatedly how bad the Russians are, so you'll probably stick with the White Helmets. http://www.globalresearch.ca/syrias-white-helmets-extensive-and-elaborate-deceptions-of-modern-war-propaganda/5558368

John Swanson

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

....to point #2.....was referring to the food shortages in 2011/12....you know the ones which contributed to the start of this crisis.....

....to point #3....first off thanks for the complement ....now back to the business at hand....tying you to that sorta kinda admittedly over the top, think rhetorical here, but the fact remains that by backing the wrong horse you are contributing to something truly awful....like do I think you get up in the morning thinking I just have something awful today....hell no....but on the other hand you are wasting a great deal of energy defending something that is ultimately awful and indefensible....that energy, especially in this political atmosphere defined by choosing btwn two evils, could be put to much better use, like working to some alternative ( the field has never been more fertile for such a development )....

...so yeah," I know that you are better than that" too....so starting fcuking acting like you are ( and I mean that in the good sense....and this time not in the William B Williams way....)....

Cheers

1) You're welcome, despite our differences of opinion, I meant it.
2) I'll try my best, sir!

John McCain should've been voted out of power years ago, but I have to say that there are many worse within congress (from both parties).

@SiC. As soon as the Russian diplomat suggested that the convoy had spontaneously combusted... well I thought that was telling. I also have trouble accepting their official version more than the white helmets' version because of their continuing refusal to take accountability for any civilian casualties. Maybe they have their reasons as they may think that any admission will be used as the rope to hang them with. But in this instance, I think the official MSN version is the most persuasive version of events. Ymmv.....

 

[ScienceIsCool]

We were told that this is a truck in the convoy that was "bombed".

This is what a hellfire missile does to a car.

John Swanson

Edit: I didn't state it explicitly so I'll add this addendum. A hellfire missile has a tiny 9 kg warhead. It would be pretty funny if Russia's airforce was using 20 pound bombs. The two SU-24 aircraft that the US says did the bombing is capable of using only one type of air to ground missile. The KH-29, which has a 320 kg warhead.

Do you see a crater? Because I don't see a crater.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

[
@SiC. As soon as the Russian diplomat suggested that the convoy had spontaneously combusted... well I thought that was telling. I also have trouble accepting their official version more than the white helmets' version because of their continuing refusal to take accountability for any civilian casualties. Maybe they have their reasons as they may think that any admission will be used as the rope to hang them with. But in this instance, I think the official MSN version is the most persuasive version of events. Ymmv.....

It is persuasive, I'll give you that. But you should be open to the fact that you're being straight-up lied to in a deliberate way.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/21/russian-aircraft-believed-to-hit-syria-convoy-us-officials-say.html - "Two Russian Sukhoi SU-24 warplanes were in the skies above the aid convoy at the exact time it was struck late on Monday, two U.S. officials told Reuters, citing U.S. intelligence that led them to conclude Russia was to blame".

If it was an SU-24 that did the strike, then it probably used a precision air-to-surface missile rather than a general purpose bomb since the target was not guaranteed to be stationary. The only missile such missile that the SU-24 can carry is the KH-29.

Armament - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24#Specifications_.28Su-24MK.29

1 × onboard 23 mm GSh-6-23 cannon, 500 rounds of ammunition.
Up to 8,000 kg (17,640 lb) ordnance on 8 hardpoints, including up to 4 × Kh-23/23M radio-command missiles; up to 4 × Kh-25ML laser-guided missiles; up to 2 × Kh-28, Kh-58E or Kh-58E-01 or Kh-31P ARMS; up to 3 × Kh-29L/T laser/TV-guided short-range air-to-surface missiles; up to 2 × Kh-59 or Kh-59ME TV-command guided missiles, Kh-31A anti-ship missiles, S-25LD laser-guided missiles, KAB-500KR TV-guided and KAB-500L laser guided bombs.
Unguided rocket launchers with 240 mm S-24B rockets or 340 mm S-25-OFM rockets.

So what do we know about the Kh-29L/T? It's a big one. It carries a 320 kg warhead stuffed with HE and is armor piercing. Big boom with lots of shrapnel in all directions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-29

look at *any* of the pictures of the burned out convoy. Do any of them look like an enormous bomb went off and sent shrapnel in all directions? If anything they look more as though a small bomb went off (mortar?) and then were left to burn.

Now these two US officials. Do you think they new that? If not, did the reporter do any fact checking before parroting what he was told? And where was the editor?

You want to know what's worse? Every last "respected" media source made the exact same claims with the exact same falsehoods. Even though completely contradictory evidence was clearly available. The tragedy is that this kind of propaganda works, even on a keen mind such as yours.

John Swanson

 

[djpbaltimore]

Those are interesting points and thank you for posting. I think we all will make up our minds one way or another, but those pieces of information are worthy of further consideration.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

We were told that this is a truck in the convoy that was "bombed".

This is what a hellfire missile does to a car.

John Swanson

Edit: I didn't state it explicitly so I'll add this addendum. A hellfire missile has a tiny 9 kg warhead. It would be pretty funny if Russia's airforce was using 20 pound bombs. The two SU-24 aircraft that the US says did the bombing is capable of using only one type of air to ground missile. The KH-29, which has a 320 kg warhead.

Do you see a crater? Because I don't see a crater.

Actually the SU-24 can also carry rocket pods, and a variety of precision a-g ordnance..not just the KH-29

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su24

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Actually the SU-24 can also carry rocket pods, and a variety of precision a-g ordnance..not just the KH-29

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su24

The S-24 and S-25 rockets it can carry aren't guided and are 120 kg fragmentation warheads. Basically they rip a large area to shreds with no discrimination. That's so very definitely not what the pictures show. It was also obviously not strafed with an SPPU-6's 34 mm rounds.

John Swanson

 

[blutto]

....file under just sayin' eh.....

Right now the Ukronazis have basically gone officially on record in declaring that they never intended to abide by the terms of the Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 agreements. Here is what Anton Gerashchenko, a special adviser to the Minister of internal Affairs of Ukraine and a member of the Board of the Ministry of internal Affairs of Ukraine openly declared on Ukrainian national TV: (emphasis added).


Let’s immediately say that the Minsk Agreements were not implemented from the day there were signed in Febuary 2015. This was a temporary measure on the side of the Ukraine and, I will be honest, a deliberate deception. Remember that the first Minsk Agreement was signed following the military disaster near Ialovaisk when we had no forces to defend the front from Donetsk to Mariupol. The second Mink Agreement was signed following the treacherous Russian aggression on Debaltsevo and the formationm of the “Debaltsevo Cauldron”. These agreements are not international agreements or anything else.

Needless to say, NOBODY in the West paid any attention to this statement, and why would they, after all, their line has always been that Russia is not abiding by the Minsk Agreement, even if Russia is not even a party to them (Russia is only a witness and guarantor). And if a senior Ukronazi official says otherwise, who cares?!

There is a strong feeling in Russia that Poroshenko is powerless and that the Ukronazi crazies are up to no good. Clearly, nobody in the Ukronazis elites has any intention of actually implementing the Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 agreements. That, by the way, might be a dangerous approach for a number of reasons:

First, these agreements were endorsed by the UNSC and every country out there, at least as far as I know. So Gerashchenko is wrong – the Minsk Agreements are binding under international law.

Second, the Ukrainian authorities recently found and released a document showing that Yanukovich had made an official request for a Russian intervention in the Ukraine. They wanted to show that he was a traitor. But in the process, they also showed that the last legitimate president of the Ukraine had made a legal request for a Russian intervention which might well mean that, at least in legal terms, any subsequent Russian intervention in the Ukraine would be 100% legal.

Even better, Yanukovich is still in Russia. And, from a legal point of view, you could make the case that he is still the legitimate president of the Ukraine. If the Yemeni President in exile Abdrabbuh Mansour Hadi could ask the Saudis to intervene in Yemen, why would that not be an option for Poroshenko to ask for such an intervention in the Ukraine?

http://www.unz.com/tsaker/interesting-week-for-vladimir-putin-and-donald-trump/

Cheers

 

[python]

...the blutto post above imo goes into the heart of the western hypocrisy re. the long-suffering country of ukraine.

here's a devastating article about the human tragedy in a country claimed to join 'the choice of the free' after the glorious revolution. the source portal is not like anything connected to rt or sputnik. just a solid piece of investigative journalism from an american conservative portal.

Why Ukraine Is Dying A Slow Death (Literally)
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-ukraine-dying-slow-death-literally-19529

 

[djpbaltimore]

I think the Ukraine people should be asked if they want Russian intervention. I think the answer would be illustrative.

 

[blutto]

Re:

I think the Ukraine people should be asked if they want Russian intervention. I think the answer would be illustrative.

....well so far there have been two "referendums" and they illustrated not everyone wanted to join the glorious revolution....would be quite interesting what another "referendum" would produce especially considering how unbelievably great the results of the glorious revolution have proved to be....

Cheers

 

[python]

Re:

I think the Ukraine people should be asked if they want Russian intervention. I think the answer would be illustrative.

what exactly this nonsense got to do with the posted link about the human tragedy the Ukrainian nation is undergoing ? your irrational obsession leaves out the Ukrainian people of donbass. or the ukrainian people of krimea ? did you know that they were asked and their answer was not what your hatred implied ?

your implications is your own brand of an extreme emotional attribution rooted in ignorance of the subject. like in this case. or in in a thin-skinned associations, like if blutto accused you of the civilians casualties in syria....

keep associating and implicating. that's your right. just also learn that too much 'associating' in your own brain is not equal to what others think or know you're ignorant about.

 

[djpbaltimore]

It wasn't in reference to the article posted. Not everything is about you. It was in reference to the unz article that suggested Russian interference would be legal.

I'm sure some would rather be a part of Russia (or in close alliance). But the presidential elections suggest many would rather be closer to the West.

 

[python]

where did i claim everything was about me, pls, be be more specific in your attributions.


if and when i claim (claimed) a specific reply to a specific post or an opinion, i usually quote it or use @. this is the way i noted most scientists - or just those caring to be understood - communicate.

the reason i did not do it now was to show how an un-adressed message could refer to anyone.

that you noted a difference in the ukrainian reactions is a progress that i do appreciate.

i really do.
---------
this post was edited to remove the wording that was perhaps unwarranted given the reply. it was too aggressive up on a 2nd reading. the edit was entirely my own and reflective.

 

[djpbaltimore]

I only quote posts when I am at a real keyboard.

I didn't read the article about the struggles of the Ukraine people. Being caught in a metaphorical vise can't be a pleasant experience for them.

 

[blutto]

......oh lookee here seems things are not so good in Greece eh.....Obama's interference and the resulting botched "solution" is fcuking up bigly.....

Bad Lenders Make Bad Loans

Finance as Warfare: The IMF Lent to Greece Knowing It Could Never Pay Back Debt

A growing impasse between the International Monetary Fund, and the European Central Bank, Greece’s two main lenders, is threatening to push Greece into default, and pull out of the euro. Meanwhile, the Greece government told its lenders, that we now call “Troika” today, that it will not agree to any more austerity measures. Joining us today, to take a closer look at the Greek situation is Michael Hudson. Michael is a distinguished Professor of Economics, at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. He’s the author of many books, and the latest among them is, J is for Junk Economics: A Guide to Reality in the Age of Deception

....pulling out not so good for EU eh....and kinda gonna maybe mess up NATO, you know the bulwark preventing Vlad from taking over the entire world.....all because Obama sucked up to the banking industry....

What do you do in a case where you make a loan to a country, and the entire staff says that there is no way this country can repay the loan? That is what the IMF staff said in 2015. It made the loan anyway – not to Greece, but to pay French banks, German banks and a few other bondholders – not a penny actually went to Greece. The junk economics they used claimed to have a program to make sure the IMF would help manage the Greek economy to enable it to repay. Unfortunately, their secret ingredient was austerity.

Sharmini, for the last 50 years, every austerity program that the IMF has made has shrunk the victim economy. No jjunkecon austerity program has ever helped an economy grow. No budget surplus has ever helped an economy grow, because a budget surplus sucks money out of the economy. As for the conditionalities, the so-called reforms, they are an Orwellian term for anti-reform, for cutting back pensions and rolling back the progress that the labor movement has made in the last half century. So, the lenders knew very well that Greece would not grow, and that it would shrink

.

So, the question is, why does this junk economics continue, decade after decade? The reason is that the loans are made to Greece precisely because Greece couldn’t pay. When a country can’t pay, the rules at the IMF and EU and the German bankers behind it say, don’t worry, we will simply insist that you sell off your public domain. Sell off your land, your transportation, your ports, your electric utilities. This is by now a program that has gone on and on, decade after decade

.

There’s a broad moral principle here: If you lend money to a country that your statistics show cannot pay the debt, is there really a moral obligation to pay the debt? Greece did have a commission two years ago saying that this debt is odious. But it’s not enough just to say there’s an odious debt. You have to have something more positive.

I’ve been talking to Greek politicians and Syriza leaders about what’s needed, and what is needed is a Declaration of Rights. Just as the Westphalia rules in 1648, a Universal Declaration that countries should not be attacked in war, that countries should not be overthrown by other countries. I think, the Declaration of International Law has to realize that no country should be obliged to impose poverty on its population, and sell off the public domain in order to pay its foreign creditors.

http://www.unz.com/mhudson/finance-as-warfare-the-imf-lent-to-greece-knowing-it-could-never-pay-back-debt/

....btw do read the article....the scissors and paste here is too choppy to do it justice....

Cheers

 

[aphronesis]

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n05/tony-wood/eat-your-spinach

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

I think the Ukraine people should be asked if they want Russian intervention. I think the answer would be illustrative.

....well so far there have been two "referendums" and they illustrated not everyone wanted to join the glorious revolution....would be quite interesting what another "referendum" would produce especially considering how unbelievably great the results of the glorious revolution have proved to be....

Cheers

Away from those two regions of Crimea and the Donbass the results would be very different. But the Tartars and some of the minority groups seem to think the so called new glorious Crimea is terrible. Everyone else is toeing the government line of paradise in progress.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

...the blutto post above imo goes into the heart of the western hypocrisy re. the long-suffering country of ukraine.

here's a devastating article about the human tragedy in a country claimed to join 'the choice of the free' after the glorious revolution. the source portal is not like anything connected to rt or sputnik. just a solid piece of investigative journalism from an american conservative portal.

Why Ukraine Is Dying A Slow Death (Literally)
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-ukraine-dying-slow-death-literally-19529

That makes for depressing reading. Little wonder that the internet is full of foreign dating agencies mostly from Ukraine and Russia. When economies go south the amount of internet scamming increases. Although I would like to think that some honest people get something out of it while of course the owners of such a business are making a killing, I am sure that many are owned by gangs.

 

[blutto]

.....file under dispatches from the front.....in this case the glorious revolution.....

Tectonic shifts are continuing to occur in the political landscape of the Ukraine. Last week, following the imposition of a total blockade against Novorussia by the Ukronazis, Russia declared that she will from now on recognize the official documents emitted by the DNR and LNR authorities. This week, the Novorussian authorities have nationalized all the key factories of the Donbass. Furthermore, the Novorussians have now declared that since the Ukrainian authorities are not willing to purchase their coal and anthracite they will from now on export them to Russia. And just to make sure that they cover all their bases, the Novorussians have also declared that from now on only the Russian Ruble will be circulating in the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics.

Not to be undone, the Ukronazis have also taken a highly significant step: the Ukrainian Prime Minister has declared that he thinks that the irregular forces currently enforcing the blockade should be considered official border guards (as for these soon to be “border guards”, they have explained that for their main border post shall be called “nightingale” in honor of the Nachtigall battalion of the Nazi Abwehr).

Let’s sum all this up:
1.The Urkonazis completely close down the unofficial border with Novorussia
2.Russia recognizes Novorussian documents
3.The DNR and LNR nationalize all the Ukrainian industry in the Donbass
4.The Ukronazis declare that the line of contact is now to be considered a border
5.The Novorussians declare that the Russian Ruble is the only legal currency in Novorussia
6.The Novorussians will now export their entire production of coal/anthracite to Russia
7.All the factories in Novorussia will no longer pay taxes to Kiev

I don’t know about you – but to me this sure looks like the DNR and LNR are cutting off their last ties to the Ukraine and the the junta in Kiev appears to go along with this plan

.

....and....

The blockade of the Donbass was decided by a rather small group of nationalist leaders who never asked for nor received any authorization for their actions from the junta in Kiev. Furthermore, the junta in Kiev never officially endorsed or even supported that move. But most amazingly, the junta never sent any kind of official police/military/security force to regain control of the situation. There was a group of men who, armed with sticks and baseball bats, tried to remove the Ukronazi crazies from the tracks, but they were quickly beaten back. Keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of soldiers and policemen deployed in the immediate vicinity of these volunteer units, but nobody, absolutely nobody has made a move to restore law and order.

Of course, the very notion of “law and order” is largely meaningless in a country occupied by a regime which itself is totally illegal. Furthermore, “law and order” are also meaningless in a country where might – usually in the form of a gang of thugs with Kalashnikovs – makes right. Forget “central Europe” – think “Somalia” and you will be much closer to the truth.

http://www.unz.com/tsaker/the-donbass-is-breaking-away-from-an-agonizing-ukraine/

....to paraphrase The Chimpster....."Barack/Shillbilly/Victoria, you've done a heckuva job" just like all the other ones.....

Cheers

 

[movingtarget]

.....file under dispatches from the front.....in this case the glorious revolution.....

Tectonic shifts are continuing to occur in the political landscape of the Ukraine. Last week, following the imposition of a total blockade against Novorussia by the Ukronazis, Russia declared that she will from now on recognize the official documents emitted by the DNR and LNR authorities. This week, the Novorussian authorities have nationalized all the key factories of the Donbass. Furthermore, the Novorussians have now declared that since the Ukrainian authorities are not willing to purchase their coal and anthracite they will from now on export them to Russia. And just to make sure that they cover all their bases, the Novorussians have also declared that from now on only the Russian Ruble will be circulating in the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics.

Not to be undone, the Ukronazis have also taken a highly significant step: the Ukrainian Prime Minister has declared that he thinks that the irregular forces currently enforcing the blockade should be considered official border guards (as for these soon to be “border guards”, they have explained that for their main border post shall be called “nightingale” in honor of the Nachtigall battalion of the Nazi Abwehr).

Let’s sum all this up:
1.The Urkonazis completely close down the unofficial border with Novorussia
2.Russia recognizes Novorussian documents
3.The DNR and LNR nationalize all the Ukrainian industry in the Donbass
4.The Ukronazis declare that the line of contact is now to be considered a border
5.The Novorussians declare that the Russian Ruble is the only legal currency in Novorussia
6.The Novorussians will now export their entire production of coal/anthracite to Russia
7.All the factories in Novorussia will no longer pay taxes to Kiev

I don’t know about you – but to me this sure looks like the DNR and LNR are cutting off their last ties to the Ukraine and the the junta in Kiev appears to go along with this plan

.

....and....

The blockade of the Donbass was decided by a rather small group of nationalist leaders who never asked for nor received any authorization for their actions from the junta in Kiev. Furthermore, the junta in Kiev never officially endorsed or even supported that move. But most amazingly, the junta never sent any kind of official police/military/security force to regain control of the situation. There was a group of men who, armed with sticks and baseball bats, tried to remove the Ukronazi crazies from the tracks, but they were quickly beaten back. Keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of soldiers and policemen deployed in the immediate vicinity of these volunteer units, but nobody, absolutely nobody has made a move to restore law and order.

Of course, the very notion of “law and order” is largely meaningless in a country occupied by a regime which itself is totally illegal. Furthermore, “law and order” are also meaningless in a country where might – usually in the form of a gang of thugs with Kalashnikovs – makes right. Forget “central Europe” – think “Somalia” and you will be much closer to the truth.

http://www.unz.com/tsaker/the-donbass-is-breaking-away-from-an-agonizing-ukraine/

....to paraphrase The Chimpster....."Barack/Shillbilly/Victoria, you've done a heckuva job" just like all the other ones.....

Cheers

This just sounds like a typical mess ! The fact that the Georgian who you could argue made a mess of his own country but did not last long in his new job in Odessa says a lot about the inertia in the country. He seems to have resigned for honest reasons. He was just fed up with the the amount of people in the government unwilling to change or maybe he thought there were much easier jobs to do and much safer ones. He was an odd hire anyway. They have little to no chance of joining the EU any time soon and Putin is just happy to wait and observe as Ukraine tears itself apart. The situation will give him comfort as he doesn't need to get involved and he knows that the USA is unlikely to. With the amount of people crossing borders and staying put especially younger people plus the fact that the economy is in dire trouble and basic needs like social services will be under severe pressure, it's not looking good. As far as I know, people even outside the Donbass are not receiving their full pensions. There is very little from the western media at the moment regarding Ukraine. A snippet here and there every few weeks. Poroshenko will probably resign before he is pushed. Seriously why would anyone want the job ? If he does resign there will be even more chaos.

 

[movingtarget]

Trump and Putin

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/05/not-what-putin-planned-trump

 

[blutto]

.....long live Banksy....performance art at its absolute finest........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/03/walled-hotel-banksy-opens-dystopian-tourist-attraction-bethlehem/

Cheers

 

[blutto]

....file under gee willikers....

The situation in the Middle East is changing at an incredible speed. The things unbelievable yesterday, become reality today. Each of the events becomes part of a bigger picture, with the region gradually moving away from abyss to become a better place.

Many things are changing for the Syrian government and it has been going on for some time. It’s not a coincidence that voices get louder, calling for inviting Syrian President Assad to the March 29 Arab Summit in Amman – five years after Syria was expelled from the 22-member organization. Russia, Jordan and Egypt are applying efforts to reconcile the Arab community with the Syrian government. Last month, Egypt’s parliamentary committee for Arab affairs called for the return of Syria to the Arab League. This would signify the reconciliation between Saudi Arabia which backed the Syrian rebels – something unthinkable some time ago

.

Moscow can facilitate the process of Iran joining with Arab states in the effort to reach agreement on Syria, bringing it to some mutual understanding with Saudi Arabia. Not much has been reported about some recent events of special significance. Iranian President Hassan Rouhani visited Kuwait and Oman on February 15. Saudi Arabian Foreign Minister Adel Al-Jubeir made a trip to Iraq on February 25, to be received by Iraqi Prime Minister Haider Al-Abadi. The trend is visible – Shia and Sunni are on speaking terms again and they are discussing something very important. It would have sounded incredible a short time ago but these are the facts

As said before, Moscow is in a unique position to act as an intermediary and it plays its role aptly to achieve tangible results. If the current trend continues in the same direction, leading to the desired outcome, Russia’s effort will go down in history as an extraordinary achievement of military success combined with effective diplomacy

https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2017/03/04/drastic-changes-in-the-middle-east-happen-unbelievably-fast/

....definitely not exceptional results and thank god for that....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re:

Trump and Putin

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/05/not-what-putin-planned-trump

....gee that was a very nice payday for Mr. Bullough....

Cheers