World Politics

[python]

wilders isn't likely to win but it does not mean he'd lose..xplainin'

in a sense, many mainstream dutch parties had been adopting his rhetoric realizing the populist value of his uttering. his messages have definitely had their audience and its no secret many normal/regular dutch have listened enthusiastically...

as i posted above - and its a genuine concern on my part b/c one of my sisters lives in holland - one of the most democratic and tolerant nations in europe, the netherlands, had chosen to forgo one of the fundamental postulates of democracy - the freedom of expression. the core value was ignored, understandably yet it needs to be explored, in order to limit a muslim foreign power (turkey) from influencing what most dutch consider a sensitive immigrant business atm.

its totally fair to look inwards when one feels threatened, yet i feel one needs to honestly realize they are becoming less democratic while prioritizing the inward look.

as an example, i know many americans who will admit the post 9-11 'patriot act' was a step away from the democracy they wished to see but were willing to tolerate for their physical security...

are the dutch thinking in the similar terms ? i don't get a sense they are, but i really dont know.

 

[Brullnux]

Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.

 

[Red Rick]

I feel that freedom of expression is self-limiting when you let those who would limit it abuse it to their own ends. Huge grey, messy area.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.

He does the one thing

States there's a problem
States an end result like that is the solution to the problem
Do not offer solution to problem.
Talk about change, hope, and vaguely inspiring hollow bullcrap like that.


And he came up with the utter gem that is

"If you cannot understand something, you can assume that it is not true"

That's quite a leap of logic there, I don't understand it. So I'm gonna go ahead and assume youknowwhat

 

[Brullnux]

That's an incredible quote, I have to say. Not sure whow decided this would be a good idea; it's almost as bad as alternative facts.

Unfortunately there are far too many politicians on the left who seem to lazy or inept to come up with an actual plan, an actual strategy and rely on useless buzzwords to win. Some of the more charismatic ones actually win. It seems that nobody can be bothered with creating a new theory or whatever. Even when the Labour Party hired Stiglitz and Piketty and a couple of others to help on a new economic policy they decided not to use them.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Re:

as i posted above - and its a genuine concern on my part b/c one of my sisters lives in holland - one of the most democratic and tolerant nations in europe, the netherlands, had chosen to forgo one of the fundamental postulates of democracy - the freedom of expression. the core value was ignored, understandably yet it needs to be explored, in order to limit a muslim foreign power (turkey) from influencing what most dutch consider a sensitive immigrant business atm.

its totally fair to look inwards when one feels threatened, yet i feel one needs to honestly realize they are becoming less democratic while prioritizing the inward look.

as an example, i know many americans who will admit the post 9-11 'patriot act' was a step away from the democracy they wished to see but were willing to tolerate for their physical security...

are the dutch thinking in the similar terms ? i don't get a sense they are, but i really dont know.

Note that the Dutch government didn't prohibit campaign for the Turkish referendum as such. They only started getting worried when the Turkish government wanted to send high ranking officials here to campaign for a referendum which would give Erdogan, who is already becoming more and more of a dictator, much more power. The problem wasn't campaigning for the referendum as such, but the Turkish government itself campaigning in the Netherlannds for an anti-democratic law change. Foreign governments campaigning in the Netherlands in a time when the Netherlands are having an election themselves is also kind of awkward. Anyway, initially the Dutch government was just displaying their discontent with these events and talking with the Turkish government to try and reach some sort of compromise. However, the Turkish immediately started very fierce and hostile rhetoric and threatening with economic sanctions; it's only after that that the Dutch government forbade the Turkish ministers to come here to campaign and then they came anyway and the present riot ensued.

 

[blutto]

Re:

Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.

....why, because, as someone on the CBC this morning commenting on this comparison stated, he has "nice hair" ? ( a reference that could take pages and pages to explain but I'm sure that this line uttered this morning got lots of giggles across Canada as it actually played a pivotal role in Trudeau's win over Harper in our last federal election...)....

Cheers

 

[python]

the dutch elections are in full swing...the turnout is estimated to hit 80% or about. the polls will close in 4 something hours.

the latest polls put wilders in 2nd or 3d though the front-runner party of the current pm is only 2-3% up, which is within the margin of error. somehow, i tend to trust the dutch polls more than in many other places.

the live coverage and updates:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/778648/Dutch-election-polls-live-updates-latest-news-Geert-Wilders-Mark-Rutte-Netherlands-poll

 

[LaFlorecita]

My vote went to Jesse Klaver/GroenLinks because I care about the environment and want accessible healthcare and equal opportunities for everyone. I've seen them as low as 12 seats in some polls and as high as 20 in others, I think about 15 is realistic
I'm a bit torn on Wilders' party, on one hand I want him to fail and I want him to fail BADLY, on the other hand it would be fun to see the alt-right looneys on social media rage when he wins the elections yet fails to form a government and doesn't become PM :lol:

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.

....why, because, as someone on the CBC this morning commenting on this comparison stated, he has "nice hair" ? ( a reference that could take pages and pages to explain but I'm sure that this line uttered this morning got lots of giggles across Canada as it actually played a pivotal role in Trudeau's win over Harper in our last federal election...)....

Cheers

Partly yes: young, good looking, charismatic. Except that I hope Klavier isn't as much of a fraud (I'm still bitter over CETA, Saudi Arabia and XL). You know the type.

 

[Red Rick]

First exit polls have the VVD, the liberal party of prime minster Mark Rutte winning an unexpectedly huge margin. 31 seats in parliament, 3 other parties? at 19.

 

[LaFlorecita]

VVD so large
PVV flop :lol:
GL 16

 

[Brullnux]

VVD and CDA coalition then I imagine?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

VVD and CDA coalition then I imagine?

VVD+CDA+D66 was always the most likely coalition, but they need a majority = 76 seats, those three together only add up to 69 (using those numbers). So another party needs to join.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

This is a pretty lousy result to form a government though (which was to be expected). How on earth are they going to form a government like this? VVD, CDA, D66 together is 69. Where are they going to get those 7 extra needed seats? PvdA isn't stupid enough to go into a predominantly right wing government again. GL and SP are way too left wing to form a government with VVD and CDA. If these parties get an extra seat in the final result, maybe CU could be an option, but trying to form a government with D66 and CU together is going to be interesting as well......

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

VVD and CDA coalition then I imagine?

First few options all involve VDD, D66 and CDA, then they need 7 more seats, but depending on actual counts they can manage that with CU, a christian party, alone. THis combo doesn't have a majority in the senate though.

May get the elderly party or the bible belt party in

 

[Brullnux]

I hope for you guys that you don't have a repeat of Spain last year.

But I'm very glad PVV had such a disappointing result (a two percent vote increase is disappointing). People here are saying that Brexit and Trump have had an effect on the PVV vote, is this true?

 

[Red Rick]

Also, seems like Erdogan got 3 seats in our parliament as well

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Yep, looks like the Netherlands will have a genocide denying party with three seats in our parliament.

Oh and I hope FvD actually gets two seats. Baudet and Hiddema are going to be comedy gold.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.

He does the one thing

States there's a problem
States an end result like that is the solution to the problem
Do not offer solution to problem.
Talk about change, hope, and vaguely inspiring hollow bullcrap like that.


And he came up with the utter gem that is

"If you cannot understand something, you can assume that it is not true"

That's quite a leap of logic there, I don't understand it. So I'm gonna go ahead and assume youknowwhat

To the bolded, that's an incredible quote. Can you direct me to where he said that please? I'm interested in the context, apart from anything else just to see if he's really that stupid. I'm not finding anything via google, maybe I'm not looking properly.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.

He does the one thing

States there's a problem
States an end result like that is the solution to the problem
Do not offer solution to problem.
Talk about change, hope, and vaguely inspiring hollow bullcrap like that.


And he came up with the utter gem that is

"If you cannot understand something, you can assume that it is not true"

That's quite a leap of logic there, I don't understand it. So I'm gonna go ahead and assume youknowwhat

To the bolded, that's an incredible quote. Can you direct me to where he said that please? I'm interested in the context, apart from anything else just to see if he's really that stupid. I'm not finding anything via google, maybe I'm not looking properly.

Dug it up.

It's in some monring show.

"If you don't understand something, you shouldn't trust it. You have to assume other are not smarter than you. If it's so complicated that I don't understand it, then there's something wrong"

 

[python]

^in and of itself, provided the quote attribution and its content were accurate, i do not find anything particularly alarming in it or about it...


all that above, again provided the attributions and the content were accurate, was nothing but a candid communication of someone using his/her own power of intellectual judgement and actually relying on it and feeling confident about it. hardly an arrogant act purported by the earlier interpretation.

if that someone expressed his/her opinion as superior, moreover, as a derogatory put-down of an alternative opinion, then, yes, he/she would qualify as a self-righteous jerk.

i read none of that but much excitement about a potentially inaccurate quote.

 

[Brullnux]

I wouldn't say it's arrogant as much as pretty dumb. I don't understand quantum physics but I trust the scientists who study it. I know that they know much more than me in that. I also know that economists know more about economics that me etc. I wouldn't say that someone with a qualification in something who says their opinion on a subject matter that they know more about bears more weight is self righteous. I get the sentiment but it's not a pretty stupid thing to say

 

[Dan2016]

Thanks Red Rick for digging up the quote.
It doesn't seem quite as bad as the shorter quote appeared.
Too ambiguous to judge what exactly he means I think. On face value only, a surface reading, it could be interpreted as pretty stupid, but he could just be saying something along the lines of ''it's important to appraise things rationally, that healthy skepticism has merit''. Who knows, maybe he is an idiot but I'd say the 'jury is out', so to speak.

 

[Dan2016]

I thought some of you might find this an interesting discussion. Although it is specifically to do with Brexit it also takes in a wider context. It's quite long but I thought it was good. Unless you want to risk the compulsion to smash your screen I strongly recommend fast-forwarding to 3min 30 secs, to avoid the incredibly smug self-obsessed 'chair':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AraqxOnOS64