- Status
It seems that the result wasn't that bad for Wilders with 20 or 21 seats the government will have to negotiate with him. I think there was quite a few new voters so the youth vote probably didn't help him. I didn't know there were so many parties involved in Dutch politics.
- May 15, 2011
- 45,171
- 617
- 24,680
Re:
I'm not sure. PM Rutte and his VVD party said several times there is no chance they'll work together with Wilders again. Rutte cannot afford to get caught lying again, so I think he'll stick to it. Also, he can form a coalition with CDA-D66-CU or CDA-D66-GL, neither is perfect but they are better options for him than PVV. I believe the other large parties (CDA-D66-GL-SP) have all ruled out the PVV as a partner as well so I guess they'll be sidelined (fortunately).movingtarget said:
- May 15, 2011
- 45,171
- 617
- 24,680
Some interesting statistics
GL (Green-left wing party), CU/SGP (Christian parties) and D66 (Liberals) profited from the young vote & female vote. I sure hope most of those young and female votes for CU/SGP went to CU, because SGP is probably the most backward party of all. If it was up to them, women wouldn't even be allowed to vote :redface:
D66 and GL got over half of their votes from the highly educated (dark green in the graph). On the other end of the spectrum we have PVV with almost 40% of their votes from people with low levels of education.
The last graph shows the % of new voters, red indicates those who did not vote for the respective party in the previous election. Seems one of the reasons PvdA (Labour party) did so poorly is because they didn't manage to attract new voters - they lost a fair few to other parties as well
GL (Green-left wing party), CU/SGP (Christian parties) and D66 (Liberals) profited from the young vote & female vote. I sure hope most of those young and female votes for CU/SGP went to CU, because SGP is probably the most backward party of all. If it was up to them, women wouldn't even be allowed to vote :redface:
D66 and GL got over half of their votes from the highly educated (dark green in the graph). On the other end of the spectrum we have PVV with almost 40% of their votes from people with low levels of education.
The last graph shows the % of new voters, red indicates those who did not vote for the respective party in the previous election. Seems one of the reasons PvdA (Labour party) did so poorly is because they didn't manage to attract new voters - they lost a fair few to other parties as well
- Oct 23, 2011
- 3,846
- 2
- 0
Re:
The SGP actually has the largest youth association of all political parties and women on average are more religious than men in the Western world, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for that one.
I don't think the SGP still advocates women not being allowed to vote. They do still officially say that in society/family/church men should have leadership though, but there is some discussion about that within the party itself. Women have been allowed to participate in all roles in the SGP youth association already, it's probably a matter of time before the real SGP follows suit.
It's funny how elections highlight differences between different strata of society and for me it also highlights how I've got one leg in two very different strata of Dutch society. About half of my environment voted D66/Groenlinks (i.e. the most liberal parties) and the other half voted CU/SGP (i.e. the most conservative parties). I know many people who vote SGP, including young and female people (which is why I know a little bit about the inner workings of that party). Somehow because of this SGP just feels like a normal party to me, and you know, Kees van der Staaij coming across as a normal, friendly and reliable person helps, but yeah some of their views are a little bit bizarre.
LaFlorecita said:
The SGP actually has the largest youth association of all political parties and women on average are more religious than men in the Western world, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for that one.
I don't think the SGP still advocates women not being allowed to vote. They do still officially say that in society/family/church men should have leadership though, but there is some discussion about that within the party itself. Women have been allowed to participate in all roles in the SGP youth association already, it's probably a matter of time before the real SGP follows suit.
It's funny how elections highlight differences between different strata of society and for me it also highlights how I've got one leg in two very different strata of Dutch society. About half of my environment voted D66/Groenlinks (i.e. the most liberal parties) and the other half voted CU/SGP (i.e. the most conservative parties). I know many people who vote SGP, including young and female people (which is why I know a little bit about the inner workings of that party). Somehow because of this SGP just feels like a normal party to me, and you know, Kees van der Staaij coming across as a normal, friendly and reliable person helps, but yeah some of their views are a little bit bizarre.
Re: Re:
I didn't know that but it reminds me of a historical fact. The French Third Republic (1871-1940) which was very secularist or Freemasonic never granted women the right to vote. The reason was that at that time women went to Church more than men did and so were close to priests and chances were that women could bring Monarchists back to power.
In the end General De Gaulle gave women the right to vote in 1945. He was a conservative, heavily influenced by Monarchist thinking.
Also the Christianity emancipated women. Pagan Rome reduced her to a secondary position in society and the rediscovery of Roman rule by the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance put her back to that secondary status. I'm reading a great book by Régine Pernoud about this at the moment.
Scary about the Armenian Genocide denying party. In a Brussels municipality I used to work in a Socialist mayor was a Genocide denier with Turkish heritage. Armenian Genocide has interested me a lot in recent year. I think it's currently possible in our societies to deny it because the perpetrators were secularists and progressists inspired by the French Revolution (the Dönmeh). The Double Standard with Holocaust deniers is striking (not claiming it's good to deny the Holocaust, just pointing to the double standard).
Maaaaaaaarten said:The SGP actually has the largest youth association of all political parties and women on average are more religious than men in the Western world, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for that one.
I didn't know that but it reminds me of a historical fact. The French Third Republic (1871-1940) which was very secularist or Freemasonic never granted women the right to vote. The reason was that at that time women went to Church more than men did and so were close to priests and chances were that women could bring Monarchists back to power.
In the end General De Gaulle gave women the right to vote in 1945. He was a conservative, heavily influenced by Monarchist thinking.
Also the Christianity emancipated women. Pagan Rome reduced her to a secondary position in society and the rediscovery of Roman rule by the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance put her back to that secondary status. I'm reading a great book by Régine Pernoud about this at the moment.
Scary about the Armenian Genocide denying party. In a Brussels municipality I used to work in a Socialist mayor was a Genocide denier with Turkish heritage. Armenian Genocide has interested me a lot in recent year. I think it's currently possible in our societies to deny it because the perpetrators were secularists and progressists inspired by the French Revolution (the Dönmeh). The Double Standard with Holocaust deniers is striking (not claiming it's good to deny the Holocaust, just pointing to the double standard).
- Sep 25, 2009
- 7,527
- 1
- 0
...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.
normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...
so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.
very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !
..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.
finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists '. amazingly, the prez ordered the finance ministry to estimate the cost to ukraine's economy due to this 'necessary measure'. the 1st estimates are minus 2% gdp in the economy that keeps falling !!
little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.
such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html
normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...
so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.
very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !
..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.
finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists
'. amazingly, the prez ordered the finance ministry to estimate the cost to ukraine's economy due to this 'necessary measure'. the 1st estimates are minus 2% gdp in the economy that keeps falling !! little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.
such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html
- Jul 4, 2009
- 9,666
- 0
- 0
Re:
....ahhh, the glorious revolution, the gift that never stops giving..... very nice find ....
....btw there had been talk about this coal issue a while back when it was realized by Western observers that Ukrainian heavy industry and power generation needed this particular type of coal to operate ( similar grades of coal are available overseas but the transport infrastructure at present does not exist to deal with overseas shipments ( plus the overseas is more expensive))....it was recognized as a problem that potentially could be solved by some level of understanding and acceptance which some had hoped would lead to some level of negotiation and ratcheting down of tensions....but no one thought that someone would "solve" this issue with such rank stupidity....so given the blockade The Ukraine is now even more royally pooched....this is truly mindboggling....
Cheers
python said:...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.
normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...
so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.
very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !
..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.
finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists
little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.
such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html
....ahhh, the glorious revolution, the gift that never stops giving..... very nice find ....
....btw there had been talk about this coal issue a while back when it was realized by Western observers that Ukrainian heavy industry and power generation needed this particular type of coal to operate ( similar grades of coal are available overseas but the transport infrastructure at present does not exist to deal with overseas shipments ( plus the overseas is more expensive))....it was recognized as a problem that potentially could be solved by some level of understanding and acceptance which some had hoped would lead to some level of negotiation and ratcheting down of tensions....but no one thought that someone would "solve" this issue with such rank stupidity....so given the blockade The Ukraine is now even more royally pooched....this is truly mindboggling....
Cheers
- Feb 20, 2012
- 53,932
- 44,320
- 28,180
SGP having the biggest youth party makes perfect sense, I aren't they against the use of contraception?
Most suprised by the fact that 50% of PVV votes are new voters. I thought he'd retain a lot more votes. Probably lost some to FvD though, and will do in the futureLaFlorecita said:Some interesting statistics
GL (Green-left wing party), CU/SGP (Christian parties) and D66 (Liberals) profited from the young vote & female vote. I sure hope most of those young and female votes for CU/SGP went to CU, because SGP is probably the most backward party of all. If it was up to them, women wouldn't even be allowed to vote :redface:
D66 and GL got over half of their votes from the highly educated (dark green in the graph). On the other end of the spectrum we have PVV with almost 40% of their votes from people with low levels of education.
The last graph shows the % of new voters, red indicates those who did not vote for the respective party in the previous election. Seems one of the reasons PvdA (Labour party) did so poorly is because they didn't manage to attract new voters - they lost a fair few to other parties as well
Re:
That is unbelievably stupid.
python said:...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.
normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...
so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.
very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !
..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.
finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists
little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.
such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html
That is unbelievably stupid.
- Sep 25, 2009
- 7,527
- 1
- 0
Re: Re:
here is another article (from the us conservative portal) on the coal blockade AND a no less idiotic scheme of how the revolution defrauds the simple ukrainians of another vital commodity - the natural gas
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-bizarre-reason-ukraine-could-be-facing-legitimacy-crisis-19787
Corruption Is Killing Ukraine's Economy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/10/14/how-corruption-corrodes-ukraines-economy/#2d62d96e124e
the article is filled with the 1st class investigative facts like that. what's puzzling, is why the western msm is not more critical of the economic idiotism, total corruption and unprecedented impoverishment of the simple ukrainians their govs encourage and finance :Question:
the revolution is now 3 y.o. its goals were to bring prosperity and fight corruption by emulating the western values and economic model...as everyone had seen, they are certainly 'fighting' it via the monumental stupidy with blockading their own vital coal. it's not even disputed by the pro-govt media...blutto said:python said:...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.
normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...
so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.
very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !
..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.
finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists
little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.
such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html
....ahhh, the glorious revolution, the gift that never stops giving..... very nice find ....
....btw there had been talk about this coal issue a while back when it was realized by Western observers that Ukrainian heavy industry and power generation needed this particular type of coal to operate ( similar grades of coal are available overseas but the transport infrastructure at present does not exist to deal with overseas shipments ( plus the overseas is more expensive))....it was recognized as a problem that potentially could be solved by some level of understanding and acceptance which some had hoped would lead to some level of negotiation and ratcheting down of tensions....but no one thought that someone would "solve" this issue with such rank stupidity....so given the blockade The Ukraine is now even more royally pooched....this is truly mindboggling....
Cheers
here is another article (from the us conservative portal) on the coal blockade AND a no less idiotic scheme of how the revolution defrauds the simple ukrainians of another vital commodity - the natural gas
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-bizarre-reason-ukraine-could-be-facing-legitimacy-crisis-19787
and if you are interested in how the ukraine's corruption is doing after the 3-year ruthless fight, take a look at this article. keep in mind, that to some the most respected western outlet - forbes - is printing the 'russian propaganda'.............. b/c it was hacked. must be.
Corruption Is Killing Ukraine's Economy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/10/14/how-corruption-corrodes-ukraines-economy/#2d62d96e124e
the article is filled with the 1st class investigative facts like that. what's puzzling, is why the western msm is not more critical of the economic idiotism, total corruption and unprecedented impoverishment of the simple ukrainians their govs encourage and finance :Question:
- Jul 4, 2009
- 9,666
- 0
- 0
....speaking of St Patrick's Day here is some interesting on the importance of history....
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46684.htm
Cheers
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46684.htm
Cheers
- Jul 4, 2009
- 9,666
- 0
- 0
Re: Re:
....maybe its something we should ask our very own Red Flanders cause he is an real expert on truth and facts and great places to get that stuff in the purest un-politicized form....real smart him, like not a stooge eh....
Cheers
python said:the revolution is now 3 y.o. its goals were to bring prosperity and fight corruption by emulating the western values and economic model...as everyone had seen, they are certainly 'fighting' it via the monumental stupidy with blockading their own vital coal. it's not even disputed by the pro-govt media...blutto said:python said:...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.
normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...
so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.
very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !
..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.
finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists
little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.
such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html
....ahhh, the glorious revolution, the gift that never stops giving..... very nice find ....
....btw there had been talk about this coal issue a while back when it was realized by Western observers that Ukrainian heavy industry and power generation needed this particular type of coal to operate ( similar grades of coal are available overseas but the transport infrastructure at present does not exist to deal with overseas shipments ( plus the overseas is more expensive))....it was recognized as a problem that potentially could be solved by some level of understanding and acceptance which some had hoped would lead to some level of negotiation and ratcheting down of tensions....but no one thought that someone would "solve" this issue with such rank stupidity....so given the blockade The Ukraine is now even more royally pooched....this is truly mindboggling....
Cheers
here is another article (from the us conservative portal) on the coal blockade AND a no less idiotic scheme of how the revolution defrauds the simple ukrainians of another vital commodity - the natural gas
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-bizarre-reason-ukraine-could-be-facing-legitimacy-crisis-19787
and if you are interested in how the ukraine's corruption is doing after the 3-year ruthless fight, take a look at this article. keep in mind, that to some the most respected western outlet - forbes - is printing the 'russian propaganda'.............. b/c it was hacked. must be.
Corruption Is Killing Ukraine's Economy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/10/14/how-corruption-corrodes-ukraines-economy/#2d62d96e124e
the article is filled with the 1st class investigative facts like that. what's puzzling, is why the western msm is not more critical of the economic idiotism, total corruption and unprecedented impoverishment of the simple ukrainians their govs encourage and finance :Question:
....maybe its something we should ask our very own Red Flanders cause he is an real expert on truth and facts and great places to get that stuff in the purest un-politicized form....real smart him, like not a stooge eh....
Cheers
- Sep 25, 2009
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...something big, unpredictable and potentially stressful is taking place in syria specifically and the middle east in general...no western msm had reported it, much less analyzed. but i will. here on a 'little' cycling forum.
i am alarmed by some developments that defy the well known trends. what are the known trends ?
1. iran, turkey and russia displaced the west from leading the syrian negotiation.
2. there was a startling reconciliation btwn russia and turkey that caused the turks moderate on assad's future
3. the us under trump has largely continued the obama syria policy. that is, supporting and training the kurds against isis and cooling turkey from attacking the kurds.
4. a well functioning agreement btwn russia and israel re. syria. that is, in addition to de-conflicting of the air forces, israel had some freedom of attacking hezbollah in return for tolerating the iranian presence in support of assad
all these trends may now collapse b/c of the new developments...
the 1st alarm sounded when the syrian anti-air missiles were shot 2 d ago at the israeli planes attacking someone near aleppo. the syrians claimed 1 israeli plane shot down. israel denied and yet claimed it had shot down the syrian missile directed at its aircraft. this incident would be just another act of the zionist aggression, if not for the russians. apparently, they got mad at the israeli attack and instantly filed a note with the israeli envoy in moscow. israel ignored it. moreover they issued a statement that if syria dares 1 more time to shoot at their planes (in the syrian sky, mind you) they will destroy the entire syrian anti-air system. russia called the israeli envoy for the 2nd time yesterday. this is unprecedented since the s.u. days. we know bibi visited vlad last week and flew back w/o giving the typical press conference...i will not be surprised if the israelis were told to stay away from syria...or else. not difficult to imagine what that 'else' was..
if russia and israel face off in syria a major shyt storm may ensure.
the 2nd alarm just sounded this morning. russia is setting a military base in the mids of syrian kurdistan according to reuters. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKBN16R1H4?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29
if true it is a direct eff u to turkey (the rumour is erdo's visit to moscow last week a day apart with bibi was a failure). and, more importantly, this is a direct brave challenge to trump and the us as the main sponsor of the syrian kurds
vlad is getting a tad more than assertive with 3 major powers in the very explosion-prone region ? filling more vacuum ? what's behind his new aggressive play ?
i am alarmed by some developments that defy the well known trends. what are the known trends ?
1. iran, turkey and russia displaced the west from leading the syrian negotiation.
2. there was a startling reconciliation btwn russia and turkey that caused the turks moderate on assad's future
3. the us under trump has largely continued the obama syria policy. that is, supporting and training the kurds against isis and cooling turkey from attacking the kurds.
4. a well functioning agreement btwn russia and israel re. syria. that is, in addition to de-conflicting of the air forces, israel had some freedom of attacking hezbollah in return for tolerating the iranian presence in support of assad
all these trends may now collapse b/c of the new developments...
the 1st alarm sounded when the syrian anti-air missiles were shot 2 d ago at the israeli planes attacking someone near aleppo. the syrians claimed 1 israeli plane shot down. israel denied and yet claimed it had shot down the syrian missile directed at its aircraft. this incident would be just another act of the zionist aggression, if not for the russians. apparently, they got mad at the israeli attack and instantly filed a note with the israeli envoy in moscow. israel ignored it. moreover they issued a statement that if syria dares 1 more time to shoot at their planes (in the syrian sky, mind you) they will destroy the entire syrian anti-air system. russia called the israeli envoy for the 2nd time yesterday. this is unprecedented since the s.u. days. we know bibi visited vlad last week and flew back w/o giving the typical press conference...i will not be surprised if the israelis were told to stay away from syria...or else. not difficult to imagine what that 'else' was..
if russia and israel face off in syria a major shyt storm may ensure.
the 2nd alarm just sounded this morning. russia is setting a military base in the mids of syrian kurdistan according to reuters. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKBN16R1H4?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29
if true it is a direct eff u to turkey (the rumour is erdo's visit to moscow last week a day apart with bibi was a failure). and, more importantly, this is a direct brave challenge to trump and the us as the main sponsor of the syrian kurds
vlad is getting a tad more than assertive with 3 major powers in the very explosion-prone region ? filling more vacuum ? what's behind his new aggressive play ?
Watched a bit of the French debate yesterday, only thing I decided was that Melenchon is a beast.
A debate with less than half of the candidates present, it's hardly democratic at all. All based on poll results which are of course fishy. Mélenchon is a great communicator but he hasn't got the solutions. He wants to stay in the UE and in the Eurozone.
The French are only starting to discover François Asselineau now. Pretty sure he's going to surprise with his score.
The French are only starting to discover François Asselineau now. Pretty sure he's going to surprise with his score.
A debate with any more than 5 candidates becomes an absolute shitshow. In the UK we had a debate with seven and it was dreadful. Nobody has enough time to make a mark or outline their policies - unless your name is Geert Wilders and you only have eleven of them. The fewer the better when it comes to election debates, however undemocratic that may be. Large debates are just awful.
I'm just saying Melenchon is great because boy was he fiery. Funny too at times. The only person to properly stand up to Le Pen quite often.
I'm just saying Melenchon is great because boy was he fiery. Funny too at times. The only person to properly stand up to Le Pen quite often.
Nothing justifies the pre-selection of "big candidates" (whom the population does not trust anymore). As candidate Jean Lassalle said: "if you accept that there are 'big candidates' and 'small candidates' it means you accept there are 'big citizens' and 'small citizens'". I saw the debate with a dozen candidates at 2012 edition and it worked pretty well. Nobody was interrupting anybody and they all had equal speech time. Of course there weren't too many exchanges that's true but we could very well see what their ideas were.
But yes. I was not ironic. Mélenchon is known as a very good communicator and he has a lot of knowledge with a perfectly coherent discourse. I'm opposed to it but give him credit for that.
But yes. I was not ironic. Mélenchon is known as a very good communicator and he has a lot of knowledge with a perfectly coherent discourse. I'm opposed to it but give him credit for that.
I haven't seen the debate but he's said that several times in the last five years. He referred to those who wanted out as Petainists. Actually he sometimes suggested a referendum I agree with you though but the problem is that both Marine Le Pen and Jean-Luc Mélenchon are really wishy washy about European issues which are not central to their agendas. At the previous election I remember a debate between Marine Le Pen and Henri Guaino (who was an advisor to Sarkozy). Guaino said: "Unilateral exit of the Eurozone would be a disaster..." (the usual Europeist propaganda) and she interrupted him saying "This has never been my project, sir!" Of course she meant that her project would be concerted with other European partners (which is impossible since nobody would have agreed with her). So sometimes she says we should exit, sometimes she says the opposite. It's hard to trust her. She could be a new Tsipras. François Asselineau has explained all that very well. He however never changed his opinion in 10 years: leave the EU, leave the Eurozone and leave NATO (after Sarkozy joined the integrated command back).
Le Pen has flipped a few times in the past months. She said a couple of months back that she was a bit ambivalent towards the unilateral exit of the EU but now seems intent on doing so, after seeing the UK do it so brilliantly(!).
It's true that the Brexit is made her change her agenda a little bit, which is prove that she's only adapting it to public opinion and to circumstances. I noticed that with Wilders too. Before Brexit he was only suggesting to renegotiate the treaties.
But still Le Pen's agenda is not clear. What she says on Europe reads:
"Find our freedom back and the control of our destiny by restituting its (monetary, legislative, territorial and economic) sovereignty to the French people. In order to do that a negociation will be engaged with our European partners followed by a referendum about our belonging to the European Union. The objective will be to reach to European project respectful to French independence, to national sovereignties and which serves the interests of the peoples."
Why negotiating if anyway you decide to exit? Why a referendum if it's what you had been elected for? And why a European project if you want to be independent? Besides Marine Le Pen has never invoked Article 50.
But still Le Pen's agenda is not clear. What she says on Europe reads:
"Find our freedom back and the control of our destiny by restituting its (monetary, legislative, territorial and economic) sovereignty to the French people. In order to do that a negociation will be engaged with our European partners followed by a referendum about our belonging to the European Union. The objective will be to reach to European project respectful to French independence, to national sovereignties and which serves the interests of the peoples."
Why negotiating if anyway you decide to exit? Why a referendum if it's what you had been elected for? And why a European project if you want to be independent? Besides Marine Le Pen has never invoked Article 50.
- Jul 4, 2009
- 9,666
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....looks like dj's favourite pal has got another great plan to save the world....dude youse better jump on this one because its a really good plan with help from really good people....
....youse really got to read the whole article as quotes simply cannot do it justice....much more better than the great plans McCain backed in Libya, Syria and The Ukraine ( yup more better than the glorious revolution, incredible but true....this could become the basis for Wag the Dog Part Deux....yup that good !...harebrained and lunacy just don't start to describe it....a superlative version of total wackjob is a reasonable opening gambit here)....
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/03/19/mccain-and-montenegro-the-anatomy-of-a-conspiracy-theory/
....youse really got to read the whole article as quotes simply cannot do it justice....much more better than the great plans McCain backed in Libya, Syria and The Ukraine ( yup more better than the glorious revolution, incredible but true....this could become the basis for Wag the Dog Part Deux....yup that good !...harebrained and lunacy just don't start to describe it....a superlative version of total wackjob is a reasonable opening gambit here)....
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/03/19/mccain-and-montenegro-the-anatomy-of-a-conspiracy-theory/
- Jul 4, 2009
- 9,666
- 0
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....more Merikan bombing of civilians ?....this time schools ?....
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201703221051840124-raqqa-us-strikes-victims/
Cheers
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201703221051840124-raqqa-us-strikes-victims/
Cheers
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