World Politics

[redtreviso]

No, I saw it. Laughed my *** off. I'm absolutely blown away that ThinkProgress would try and blame this on Bush. Shocked, stunned and amazed.

You had no problem making it Obama's exclusive problem.. You and some TB congressman, cato and heritage that is.

 

[patricknd]

first off..he is not a real gd person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2nd if he was well employed he'd be covered..
3rd republicans are MORONS

let him die.. pffft Christian Nation indeed

I am talking about real people. Did you miss what I wrote or are you skimming again?

And if you're paying 1200.00 per month may we assume you aren't well employed? Is this the source of your bitterness?

 

[redtreviso]

I am talking about real people. Did you miss what I wrote or are you skimming again?

And if you're paying 1200.00 per month may we assume you aren't well employed? Is this the source of your bitterness?

1000 a month is pretty typical for those having to buy their own insurance and with 5000 deductible.. The well employed but not insured are REALLY WELL EMPLOYED and never enter into this issue..The 30 yr old who passes on 200 a month and then goes into a coma??????plueeez.. But still the Let him Die was accurate. They probably have someone in their own family they would let die..
How bout a tampa bay republican that needs a gd liver transplant due to their own devices???

 

[Anonymous]

1000 a month is pretty typical for those having to buy their own insurance and with 5000 deductible.. The well employed but not insured are REALLY WELL EMPLOYED and never enter into this issue..The 30 yr old who passes on 200 a month and then goes into a coma??????plueeez.. But still the Let him Die was accurate. They probably have someone in their own family they would let die..
How bout a tampa bay republican that needs a gd liver transplant due to their own devices???

Not if you are single, 30 and healthy. Your BS is getting pretty thick.

 

[Anonymous]

Good questions. Yes, if someone is offered insurance, and can afford it, and don't take it anyway, that's another story. But I don't think even then we should just let them die (if they are expected to be able to eventually recover), that's crazy. You can heal the person, then bill/garnish them for the next few decades. But just letting them die???
Keep in mind that in my rationed single-payer health care plan, government paid end of life care would be greatly curbed. Hence, you are on your death bed and have maybe a few weeks to live, you get hospice, not any extra care. In essence everyone has some sort of DNR. This mostly applies to the elderly and infirm, but can also apply to the Terry Schaivo/Karen Anne Quinlen type situation. In my plan, private supplemental care (and HSA savings) is the answer to that if you are hoping for care in order to live another few weeks/months.

I agree on the last part. But I don't think there are that many people who expect this, compared to people who probably don't even think about it at all.

But Alpe, they are not allowed to die. They are treated and then presented with a bill (fee for service). If they can't pay it they file BK. That's how it works. That is one of the many reasons why healthcare is so effing expensive. Those that can pay, pay for those that can't (or won't).

Kinda like the tax code.

 

[redtreviso]

Not if you are single, 30 and healthy. Your BS is getting pretty thick.

Wolf Blitzer is pretty thick.. I am surprised he didn't ask them if the young buck buying steaks with food stamps should be left to starve. Denying care to a healthy 30 yr old who has bad luck is not the problem..But here you are sh ing your pants as usual.

 

[Anonymous]

Wolf Blitzer is pretty thick.. I am surprised he didn't ask them if the young buck buying steaks with food stamps should be left to starve. Denying care to a healthy 30 yr old who has bad luck is not the problem..But here you are sh ing your pants as usual.

Now you are just trolling. The healthy 30 year old was not on a bad luck streak.

Try again. This time bring some facts with you.

You dissappoint me.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

But Alpe, they are not allowed to die. They are treated and then presented with a bill (fee for service). If they can't pay it they file BK. That's how it works.

You are correct, but we're talking about different choices here. If the fictitious person wished to die as a result of a DNR, then okay, I'm perfectly fine with that. If they wish to commit assisted suicide instead of being a quadriplegic, after counseling to verify their wish, I'm okay with that as well.

I got the impression however that this was a situation where the hospital was going to be told that such a person, if they cannot pay, should be denied medical care and just be allowed to die as an alternative to billing them for something they could not afford/bankruptcy. To me that's what got the cheer from the crowd. I really don't think I'm reading this wrong either.

 

[redtreviso]

Now you are just trolling. The healthy 30 year old was not on a bad luck streak.

Try again. This time bring some facts with you.

You dissappoint me.

No...that 30yr old doesn't exist.. It is a welfare queen..a young buck..a dog whistle..the hooker using abortion for birth control..the teenager selling fetuses for stem cell research..all the things that make right wingers wind up toys

 

[Anonymous]

You are correct, but we're talking about different choices here. If the fictitious person wished to die as a result of a DNR, then okay, I'm perfectly fine with that. If they wish to commit assisted suicide instead of being a quadriplegic, after counseling to verify their wish, I'm okay with that as well.

I got the impression however that this was a situation where the hospital was going to be told that such a person, if they cannot pay, should be denied medical care and just be allowed to die as an alternative to billing them for something they could not afford/bankruptcy. To me that's what got the cheer from the crowd. I really don't think I'm reading this wrong either.

Well, I hope you did read it wrong. That was not my impression but I'm biased.

 

[redtreviso]

You are correct, but we're talking about different choices here. If the fictitious person wished to die as a result of a DNR, then okay, I'm perfectly fine with that. If they wish to commit assisted suicide instead of being a quadriplegic, after counseling to verify their wish, I'm okay with that as well.

I got the impression however that this was a situation where the hospital was going to be told that such a person, if they cannot pay, should be denied medical care and just be allowed to die as an alternative to billing them for something they could not afford/bankruptcy. To me that's what got the cheer from the crowd. I really don't think I'm reading this wrong either.

bwahhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[usedtobefast]

You are correct, but we're talking about different choices here. If the fictitious person wished to die as a result of a DNR, then okay, I'm perfectly fine with that. If they wish to commit assisted suicide instead of being a quadriplegic, after counseling to verify their wish, I'm okay with that as well.

I got the impression however that this was a situation where the hospital was going to be told that such a person, if they cannot pay, should be denied medical care and just be allowed to die as an alternative to billing them for something they could not afford/bankruptcy. To me that's what got the cheer from the crowd. I really don't think I'm reading this wrong either.

no you are not.

 

[Anonymous]

No...that 30yr old doesn't exist.. It is a welfare queen..a young buck..a dog whistle..the hooker using abortion for birth control..the teenager selling fetuses for stem cell research..all the things that make right wingers wind up toys

Yeah, Red.

That's why they call it a HYPOTHEICAL question.

You really are having an off-night.

 

[redtreviso]

Yeah, Red.

That's why they call it a HYPOTHEICAL question.

You really are having an off-night.

I'll tell you what is HYPOTHEtICAL.. that Blitzer or anyone on that panel has a clue about who worries about being denied medical care.. and that crowd...JFC!!!!! He could have asked-- if a 66 year old that wasn't ambitious enough to have retired from a job that carried them on their insurance rolls after retirement and was on medicare should be allowed to have extraordinary efforts made to keep them alive. Those hyenas in the audience would still have run their mouths before they thought about it.

 

[rhubroma]

The entire logic behind Scott's position is so devoid of any humanity as to be frankly revolting.

US healthcare costs more than any medical assistance on the planet, that's a fact, due to a market ideology that's been applied to treatment costs bargained for between insurance companies and hospitals, the pharmaceutical industry and liability insurance for medics, since America is a sue happy nation. Business and litigation have ruined healthcare in America, not the state. That's the truth. While anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or a hypocrite, which is naturally appalling.

All of this means that when the logic of the market, when every damn aspect of life, is treated simply as something to be purchased and bargained for, including human health, then everyone gets defrauded rich and poor alike. Only the rich are so blinded, so obsessed with and so certain of their market liberalism and rational egoism, that it has made them frankly too imbecile to even be able to comprehend what really goes against their own base interests.

Only peevish Scott won't ever admit to such a truth: namely, that the selfish individualist and business mentality has irrevocable corrupted the healthcare system in America and hence driven up the costs. But what the hell, as long as it's out of the hands of the state and in the private sector everything is ***-dory. ***-dory yew-haw! It's the only "principle" they know.

This is thus not an issue of opportunistic people, or the inefficiency of the state, but a horrible neo-liberal ideology that is so base and lacking in any principled criteria, that it doesn't even bear thinking about.

There needs to be more regulation of the costs by the State, the litigation and insurance apparatus must be broken so that medical treatment becomes affordable to society in a public healthcare system. There must be a basic shift in the awareness and perceptions of much of US society, that healthcare, in a modern and civil democracy, needs to be treated as the same type of birth right as receiving a fair trial. Even the doctors will have to simply make less. But don't tell me that there is a relationship between how much medics are paid and the quality of treatment, because it is complete bull. Just ask the Cubans. In any case they can supplement their income in a capitalist society through private clinics, which those who choose to pay to have treatment in them can do so and get their kicks in spending their money however they choose. Make healthcare more affordable to society and stop driving up the profits of the insurance companies and the lawyers!

And I don't give a damn that there will always be a certain segment of society that will take advantage of the system at the expense of others. How many rich people and rich corporations receive every form of fiscal relief by the government at the expense of the poor and working classes. If the conservatives truly believed in the "trickle-down effect" then, well, there it is! At least it goes to something decent, instead of filling the pockets of a class that has no real need. Or else cut the f-ing military spending by like 90 percent and pull out of all of America's imperialistic wars and contras financing to pay for it.

I can't say how much reading this stuff has made me want to vomit. What a world those guys envision! Someday all the avarice and the total lack of solidarity will backfire on them however, if it already hasn't started to.

 

[redtreviso]

The 30 yr old healthy, white , well employed, wink wink wink wink.=. Black pregnant, uninsured, hemorrhaging in childbirth at the county hospital.

 

[Stingray34]

The entire logic behind Scott's position is so devoid of any humanity as to be frankly revolting.

US healthcare costs more than any medical assistance on the planet, that's a fact, due to a market ideology that's been applied to treatment costs bargained for between insurance companies and hospitals, the pharmaceutical industry and liability insurance for medics, since America is a sue happy nation. Business and litigation have ruined healthcare in America, not the state. That's the truth. While anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or a hypocrite, which is naturally appalling.

All of this means that when the logic of the market, when every damn aspect of life, is treated simply as something to be purchased and bargained for, including human health, then everyone gets defrauded rich and poor alike. Only the rich are so blinded, so obsessed with and so certain of their market liberalism and rational egoism, that it has made them frankly too imbecile to even be able to comprehend what really goes against their own base interests.

Only peevish Scott won't ever admit to such a truth: namely, that the selfish individualist and business mentality has irrevocable corrupted the healthcare system in America and hence driven up the costs. But what the hell, as long as it's out of the hands of the state and in the private sector everything is ***-dory. ***-dory yew-haw! It's the only "principle" they know.

This is thus not an issue of opportunistic people, or the inefficiency of the state, but a horrible neo-liberal ideology that is so base and lacking in any principled criteria, that it doesn't even bear thinking about.

There needs to be more regulation of the costs by the State, the litigation and insurance apparatus must be broken so that medical treatment becomes affordable to society in a public healthcare system. There must be a basic shift in the awareness and perceptions of much of US society, that healthcare, in a modern and civil democracy, needs to be treated as the same type of birth right as receiving a fair trial. Even the doctors will have to simply make less. But don't tell me that there is a relationship between how much medics are paid and the quality of treatment, because it is complete bull. Just ask the Cubans. In any case they can supplement their income in a capitalist society through private clinics, which those who choose to pay to have treatment in them can do so and get their kicks in spending their money however they choose. Make healthcare more affordable to society and stop driving up the profits of the insurance companies and the lawyers!

And I don't give a damn that there will always be a certain segment of society that will take advantage of the system at the expense of others. How many rich people and rich corporations receive every form of fiscal relief by the government at the expense of the poor and working classes. If the conservatives truly believed in the "trickle-down effect" then, well, there it is! At least it goes to something decent, instead of filling the pockets of a class that has no real need. Or else cut the f-ing military spending by like 90 percent and pull out of all of America's imperialistic wars and contras financing to pay for it.

I can't say how much reading this stuff has made me want to vomit. What a world those guys envision! Someday all the avarice and the total lack of solidarity will backfire on them however, if it already hasn't started to.

I'm with you 100% on this.

Many things about the USA make me feel sad, none more than it's avaricious so-called 'health' care system.

An older guy I know through work, about 75 now and retired, travels a lot. A couple of years ago he visited friends in the States. He met this guy through them who was missing two fingers. Said it was a boating accident. His friends recovered the severed digits, put them with ice in a bag and rushed him to emergency.

As he didn't have insurance - or rather the right kind or some such sophistry -The doc said it'll be five grand a finger, how much have you got?

He said he had just five grand. So, they sewed one back on and threw away the other two.

This is F.U.B.A.R.

It's what you get when you make docs swear to a pair of oaths to one god that doesn't exist (Apollo, the Hippocratic oath), and another that does (Mammon).

 

[Amsterhammer]

That is one of the many reasons why healthcare is so effing expensive. Those that can pay, pay for those that can't (or won't).

Kinda like the tax code.

Which is what happens when you let your wonderful, unfettered, unregulated, how-much-profit-is-there-to-be-made free market run health care!

Which is why the entire US health care system needs to be scrapped and made more equitable. I'm totally with Rhub on this (no surprise there). Sadly, this is likely to happen round about the same time that pigs start being able to fly.

You wrote that you have been a conservative your whole life - I always thought that 'young' and 'conservative' was an oxymoron.

I'm with you 100% on this.

Many things about the USA make me feel sad, none more than it's avaricious so-called 'health' care system.

An older guy I know through work, about 75 now and retired, travels a lot. A couple of years ago he visited friends in the States. He met this guy through them who was missing two fingers. Said it was a boating accident. His friends recovered the severed digits, put them with ice in a bag and rushed him to emergency.

As he didn't have insurance - or rather the right kind or some such sophistry -The doc said it'll be five grand a finger, how much have you got?

He said he had just five grand. So, they sewed one back on and threw away the other two.

This is F.U.B.A.R.

It's what you get when you make docs swear to a pair of oaths to one god that doesn't exist (Apollo, the Hippocratic oath), and another that does (Mammon).

This appalling, unbelievable story, simply reinforces the need to raze this totally f***ed up system to the ground and start from scratch.


Warning: do not view the following page in an altered state of consciousness!

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

 

[ChrisE]

The 30 yr old healthy, white , well employed, wink wink wink wink.=. Black pregnant, uninsured, hemorrhaging in childbirth at the county hospital.

Of course it is a dogwhistle, but as usual you use that dogwhistle to cover up self reflection of what you are bytching about.

People are responsible for their own actions. If somebody cannot afford to bring children into the world responsibly, then they shouldn't be having them.

 

[Stingray34]

Of course it is a dogwhistle, but as usual you use that dogwhistle to cover up self reflection of what you are bytching about.

People are responsible for their own actions. If somebody cannot afford to bring children into the world responsibly, then they shouldn't be having them.

What a hyper-rational world you live in. How many of us were planned, projected and actuated? Me, I was just born. Some are believed to have been invented.

You're in really good comapny, actually: I remember seeing Rikki Lake say the exact same thing. Way to go, Chris!

 

[ChrisE]

What a hyper-rational world you live in. How many of us were planned, projected and actuated? Me, I was just born. Some are believed to have been invented.

You're in really good comapny, actually: I remember seeing Rikki Lake say the exact same thing. Way to go, Chris!

Swoosh, you totally missed the point.

 

[Stingray34]

Swoosh, you totally missed the point.

G'damn it...I must remember to turn on my irony detector.

 

[Anonymous]

You are correct, but we're talking about different choices here. If the fictitious person wished to die as a result of a DNR, then okay, I'm perfectly fine with that. If they wish to commit assisted suicide instead of being a quadriplegic, after counseling to verify their wish, I'm okay with that as well.

I got the impression however that this was a situation where the hospital was going to be told that such a person, if they cannot pay, should be denied medical care and just be allowed to die as an alternative to billing them for something they could not afford/bankruptcy. To me that's what got the cheer from the crowd. I really don't think I'm reading this wrong either.

Yes, that is exactly what they were applauding. How else could anyone "just let him die." It was a sick response from a group of people (as Michael Steele pointed out yesterday) who would be begging for help if they were in the same position and would also likely NOT let someone else die in that circumstance were they the one making the choice. It was political bravado made by the same type of people who sit around and jerk-off to war films, but never served in the military.

The episode where they applauded the execution rate in Texas the other night was also telling. The Tea Party is filled with people who believe they understand the world, and that the world is simple to understand. Neither is true.

 

[rhubroma]

Of course it is a dogwhistle, but as usual you use that dogwhistle to cover up self reflection of what you are bytching about.

People are responsible for their own actions. If somebody cannot afford to bring children into the world responsibly, then they shouldn't be having them.

I have mentioned before a need for humans to stop reproducing themselves at the current exponential rate for the good of the earth, or in any case decreasing the global population, but that how this is to be done remains an enigma.

Certainly the options pursued in the past like "racial clensing" and genocide, however, or else disease, starvation, cataclismic natural catastrophe, etc. are not all that appealing, if I may use sarcasm to mention such atrocities. On the other hand, the dominant religions of the world all speak of what divine blessings human offsprings are and believe how each child, nay embrio, is a genuine gift from God, whichever god that might be, or the same God under various aliases. So I can't phathom a mass change in human perception in this regard, nor does an access to an apparant biological imperative seem to work in favor of humanity shrinking itself.

Your cynical remark, callous as it was, actually strikes upon a current trend in human reproduction: namely, those with less education and less wealth make more babies, by contrast the more instructed and financially affluent socities have become signifies seeing their offspring diminish, in some cases precipitously.

In other words those who could afford more children are having less, while, vice versa, those of less economic means, if not to say the abject poor, are reproducing in significantly greater quantities. This in itself means that the world is literally becoming poorer in the sheer quantitative analysis.

All of which suggests to me simply that if we invest in the poor and provide them with an opportunity to have better wages and schools, then the demographic problem, which is perhaps the greatest problem for civilization and nature of them all, will auto-correct itself.

I fear, however, that the neo-liberal capitalist regime that is currently in effect, for which even in post-Mao China and post-colonial India the population levels continue to rise, means that none of this will happen any time soon.

 

[Anonymous]

The entire logic behind Scott's position is so devoid of any humanity as to be frankly revolting.

US healthcare costs more than any medical assistance on the planet, that's a fact, due to a market ideology that's been applied to treatment costs bargained for between insurance companies and hospitals, the pharmaceutical industry and liability insurance for medics, since America is a sue happy nation. Business and litigation have ruined healthcare in America, not the state. That's the truth. While anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or a hypocrite, which is naturally appalling.

All of this means that when the logic of the market, when every damn aspect of life, is treated simply as something to be purchased and bargained for, including human health, then everyone gets defrauded rich and poor alike. Only the rich are so blinded, so obsessed with and so certain of their market liberalism and rational egoism, that it has made them frankly too imbecile to even be able to comprehend what really goes against their own base interests.

Only peevish Scott won't ever admit to such a truth: namely, that the selfish individualist and business mentality has irrevocable corrupted the healthcare system in America and hence driven up the costs. But what the hell, as long as it's out of the hands of the state and in the private sector everything is ***-dory. ***-dory yew-haw! It's the only "principle" they know.

This is thus not an issue of opportunistic people, or the inefficiency of the state, but a horrible neo-liberal ideology that is so base and lacking in any principled criteria, that it doesn't even bear thinking about.

There needs to be more regulation of the costs by the State, the litigation and insurance apparatus must be broken so that medical treatment becomes affordable to society in a public healthcare system. There must be a basic shift in the awareness and perceptions of much of US society, that healthcare, in a modern and civil democracy, needs to be treated as the same type of birth right as receiving a fair trial. Even the doctors will have to simply make less. But don't tell me that there is a relationship between how much medics are paid and the quality of treatment, because it is complete bull. Just ask the Cubans. In any case they can supplement their income in a capitalist society through private clinics, which those who choose to pay to have treatment in them can do so and get their kicks in spending their money however they choose. Make healthcare more affordable to society and stop driving up the profits of the insurance companies and the lawyers!

And I don't give a damn that there will always be a certain segment of society that will take advantage of the system at the expense of others. How many rich people and rich corporations receive every form of fiscal relief by the government at the expense of the poor and working classes. If the conservatives truly believed in the "trickle-down effect" then, well, there it is! At least it goes to something decent, instead of filling the pockets of a class that has no real need. Or else cut the f-ing military spending by like 90 percent and pull out of all of America's imperialistic wars and contras financing to pay for it.

I can't say how much reading this stuff has made me want to vomit. What a world those guys envision! Someday all the avarice and the total lack of solidarity will backfire on them however, if it already hasn't started to.

Puke then.

We have had this argument several times. The only difference this time is that you are more vitriolic than the last. Wash, rinse, repeat.

You have one speed, one argument and it's boring.