World Politics

Page 499 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ferminal said:
I'm looking for a debate on energy policy, obviously you're not capable of that. Just like I'm not capable of providing you with sufficient philosophical stimulus.

I'm not talking about energy policy, as my point doesn't fit into the market driven logic, which to me is the problem here, that drives it.

I know that's Greek to the pragmatists, however, it seems to me that the solution is in curbing human desire, is in getting a firm grasp again about what is actually necessary and what is excessive. Excess that's often driven by interests that are convenient to a certain idea about progress, even if non other, precisely because of those interests, has been considered.

I think, though, that because those interests have come to predominate over the world of men so thoroughly, that at this point only a calamity of hitherto unimaginable proportions, will be enough to make us rethink. We've been on a mad precipitous rush to develop everything for centuries now and, in the process, our progress may have set society on a collision course with destiny.
So I’m afraid, yes, you are right: I’m not capable of debating energy policy, other than in recommending happy downsizing.
 
The Hitch said:
Because whatever the origins of the term "anti-Semitism", it has come to by now refer solely to racism against the Jews.

Also the fact that someone is Jewish does not mean they can't be anti-Semitic. I thought we got past this after "but he's Jewish" was the only defense offered to the charge of offense by the most diehard fans of Borat.

Also, I have no idea what either Gutman or Gingrich said exactly since its all in your own words, but if Gutman did try to justify the hate of Muslims against JEWS, rather than justify their hatred of ISRAEL then he is being anti-Semitic, or at least getting dangerously close to it.

Never-mind that much of Muslim anti-Semitism has little to do with Palestine, as Islam is heavily divided and many of its believers dont particularly about the plight of one people or another.

Dont see as much support for the Kurds, or the Blacks of Southern Sudan who have been massacred in their millions, perhaps largely because the oppressors in these cases are also Muslims.

I think there's a difference between explaining, or seeking to objectively comprehend, and justification.

It's seems to me that a lot of the debate has been misguided in condemning an attempt at "justification" that, in reality, doesn't exist in many cases.

That there's been a conflation of real anti-Semitism with any criticism of Israel, in the name of deflecting attention away from the different standards being applied to what should be a universal right to international recognition.
 
Jun 14, 2010
34,930
60
22,580
rhubroma said:
I think there's a difference between explaining, or seeking to objectively comprehend, and justification.

It's seems to me that a lot of the debate has been misguided in condemning an attempt at "justification" that, in reality, doesn't exist in many cases.

That there's been a conflation of real anti-Semitism with any criticism of Israel, in the name of deflecting attention away from the different standards being applied to what should be a universal right to international recognition.

Whats your point?

I made the point that saying (quote) "the hate of Muslims against Jews that arises from the conflict between Israel and Palestine" - should not be condemned, is anti-Semitic.

As I pointed out if he said hatred against Israel is all right, then its ok. If he said hatred against JEWS is all right, then it is racism or justifying it.

Nothing to do with Israel or any specific political situation, but rather the point that claiming that racism against a certain people is ok if you dont like their state , is still racism

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

But you just seem to be giving me lectures on Israel which is not what Im here to discuss.

If you want to respond to my post then talk about racism, but if you want to debate Israel Palestine, International Recognition etc with someone, quote someone else and place your imagined arguments on them.
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
The Hitch said:
Whats your point?

I made the point that saying (quote) "the hate of Muslims against Jews that arises from the conflict between Israel and Palestine" - should not be condemned, is anti-Semitic.

As I pointed out if he said hatred against Israel is all right, then its ok. If he said hatred against JEWS is all right, then it is racism or justifying it.

Nothing to do with Israel or any specific political situation, but rather the point that racism whatever the justification, is still racism

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

But you just seem to be giving me lectures on Israel which is not what Im here to discuss.

If you want to respond to my post then talk about racism, but if you want to debate Israel Palestine, International Recognition etc with someone, quote someone else and place your imagined arguments on them.

He never said hatred against Jews because of the Israelite conflict should not be condemned though. He said it wasn't anti-Semitic. The hate is based on political reasons here and not on race. So how can it be racism then?
 
Jun 14, 2010
34,930
60
22,580
El Pistolero said:
He never said hatred against Jews because of the Israelite conflict should not be condemned though. He said it wasn't anti-Semitic. The hate is based on political reasons here and not on race. So how can it be racism then?

Yes I know that, you already explained earlier that you had made a mistake and wrongly portrayed what he had said.

But what Im talking about above is theory now.

Doesnt matter what he did say, from your original post, the debate has continued to a discussion of whether, had he said it, it would have been justifiable or not.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
The Hitch said:
Its not my phrase, but those who say it I dont think they mean that Gazprom runs every single facet of Russian goverment, but rather that it plays a huge roll in Russian affairs.

Mostly in foreign policy of course as everyone of course knows with Ukraine.

But also its worth noting that under Putin it bought a bunch of media that was being a little to unbiased and turned them into Putin propaganda stations and newspapers.

And of course much of the Gazprom board of directors is on the blimin cabinet. Its current chairman is the previous Prime Minister of Russia.

Kind of like, for what I assume is an example you will know lots about, some would say that the East India Company was essentially British foreign policy, even though it did not have too much to do with say British European policy.

Thanks, just needed to clarify that. In the end, it just seems like a difference in wording of the statements and we're in agreement over here.

It's precisely because of the presence of so many influential politicians in the board that I said that the Russian govt controls Gazprom. Zubkov is also a deputy PM now, while Dmitry Medvedev was a deputy PM while heading Gazprom.
 
May 13, 2009
3,093
3
0
So the drone which got 'out of control' and was 'lost' over Iran now turns out to have been on a CIA spy mission. So how is an 'out of control' drone on a supposed 'border control' mission different from 'out of control' 'students' trashing the UK embassy, precisely?
 
The Hitch said:
Whats your point?

I made the point that saying (quote) "the hate of Muslims against Jews that arises from the conflict between Israel and Palestine" - should not be condemned, is anti-Semitic.

As I pointed out if he said hatred against Israel is all right, then its ok. If he said hatred against JEWS is all right, then it is racism or justifying it.

Nothing to do with Israel or any specific political situation, but rather the point that claiming that racism against a certain people is ok if you dont like their state , is still racism

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

But you just seem to be giving me lectures on Israel which is not what Im here to discuss.

If you want to respond to my post then talk about racism, but if you want to debate Israel Palestine, International Recognition etc with someone, quote someone else and place your imagined arguments on them.

Well of course it is, however, being in disagreement with a state's policy isn't usually racism. This is where I think things have become misguided with regards to Israel in certain spheres in the West and particularly in the US, much more than racism, which comes in many forms and has many targets. And I hadn't considered using anyone, least of all him, as a reason to debate Israel/Palestine, for I too was interested about perceptions of racism so I don't understand your point.

As far as lecturing goes, that's your perception, for I had no intention in that regard. Besides, you're a well studied and intelligent guy, so what would be the point?
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
Cobblestones said:
So the drone which got 'out of control' and was 'lost' over Iran now turns out to have been on a CIA spy mission. So how is an 'out of control' drone on a supposed 'border control' mission different from 'out of control' 'students' trashing the UK embassy, precisely?

In media coverage for one, I can't find a story on BBC and can't even find one on Al Jazeera. Why's the coverage so lax? Another question I have is, how many drones have been out of control there?
 
Jun 14, 2010
34,930
60
22,580
rhubroma said:
Well of course it is, however, being in disagreement with a state's policy isn't usually racism.

Thats my point. If they criticize Israel there's nothing wrong with that.
 
The Hitch said:
Thats my point. If they criticize Israel there's nothing wrong with that.

Then we agree. All of this began by the most unfortunate assertion, for purely political reasons, of Gingrich. This mentality, in United States politics, is as old as Kissinger, and has gone way past it's expiration date.

Unfortunately it makes us dissect the intentions and "hidden intentions" of any remarks, which attempt at more objective and useful analysis. And it's a big problem for the region and the world. As big, unfortunately, as the racism it has been cynically placed in competition with by some.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
Cobblestones said:
So the drone which got 'out of control' and was 'lost' over Iran now turns out to have been on a CIA spy mission. So how is an 'out of control' drone on a supposed 'border control' mission different from 'out of control' 'students' trashing the UK embassy, precisely?

BBC has completely ignored this, I can only imagine why.

One drone now, two in January have been shot down.
 
May 13, 2009
3,093
3
0
ramjambunath said:
BBC has completely ignored this, I can only imagine why.

One drone now, two in January have been shot down.

Hah! And not even the 'shot down' part has been acknowledged.

How do such things work? Can the Iranians sell the drone to Russia or China for a security council veto promise? Fars News agency indicates the presence of Russian specialists at an earlier incident.

My feeling is that since rhetoric against Iran has stepped up and now possibly surveillance as well, this is leading up to a confrontation because of the nuclear issues. What I don't know is whether the loss of the drone will heat up or cool down the desire for war. It may depend on the circumstances. If it really was an accidental loss, then it likely doesn't matter. If it was shot down, then there will be some concerns. If, as Iran claims, it was lost due to electronic warfare, then this is a real problem for the US.

Basically, we're right at the heart of the middle east problem. Traditionally, the three great countries/ethnicities in the regions are the Turks, the Arabs and the Persians. Turkey has been part of NATO for a long time, but clearly, with the breaking up of the SU and the emergence of several new central Asian countries inhabited by Turks, Turkey's influence is on the rise, and opportunities abound. It has led to a resurgence of Turkish self-assurance which has already led to changes in their Israel policy and their diplomatic efforts vis a vis Iran (entirely unappreciated by the US). Also, clearly the Turkish economy has benefitted enormously over the recent years.

Arabs traditionally have looked toward Egypt as their natural leader. That hasn't been the case though since Nasser. The role of Arab leadership has instead been taken by the Saudis, mostly because of their oil and military support by the US. This is why the Arab revolution, in particular in Egypt, has not been supported by the West. It threatens to shift the balance of Arab leadership back from the Saudis to an unpredictable Egypt.

Finally Iran and Persians. Squeezed between Iraq and Afghanistan on both sides and looking across the Persian Gulf to a US backed Saudi Arabia, and considering the mostly disastrous meddling of US in Iran over the last 80 years, one shouldn't be surprised to find a great dose of paranoia. Of course, everybody would be happier if Iran were a more socially liberal country with respect for women's and gays rights and religious freedom. Now, the problem is clearly that an external threat to Iran, which is how NATO and the US are perceived (rightfully IMHO), will not help. Neither is propping up the Saudis where women's rights are in worse shape than in Iran. It is (rightfully) seen as hypocrisy. For completeness, there's more examples of hypocrisy involving Israel, but I don't want to go there since it will only detract from the issues.

Finally a few words on the non proliferation treaty. It is not fair, but it was a masterpiece of realpolitik. It acknowledged the presence of nuclear weapons in all countries which possessed them at the time. Besides the obvious goal of non-proliferation, it allowed each country to develop nuclear energy, and it had a promise of the five nuclear powers to disarm (eventually). Almost every nation on earth (with very few exceptions) joined the treaty, which made it work for a long time.

Nowadays, of course, the treaty is known to have been broken several times (e.g. North Korea, South Africa during apartheid), the promise of eventual disarmament has not panned out, and sadly, the three non-signatory nations (Israel, Pak!stan, India) have all developed nuclear weapons. Furthermore, US policy has been to interpret the treaty very narrowly in terms of enrichment and reprocessing.

What is needed is a new treaty rooted in the same spirit of realpolitik as the old one. First of all, it has to acknowledge all present nuclear powers in order to make it possible for Israel, India and Pak!stan to join. Then, it needs a firmer promise of total nuclear disarmament on a regional and global level. Clearly, during the cold war, nothing like that was possible. Nowadays, maybe. The good news is that with the end of the cold war, massive amounts of warheads have already disappeared. Cooperation between the by far largest powers, US and Russia, seems to work and a decent amount of trust and good will has been building. Moreover, the lure of nuclear power has waned considerably since the 1960s making the whole issue of nuclear technology a much less important topic.

Anyway, a renegotiation of the NPT would be useful, if only to acknowledge the changed realities. The shift in US policy toward India might also point in that direction.

ETA: shoot, I forgot about the filter. Maybe we should rename Pak!stan Uzbekibekibekistanistan. That should work fine for everybody.
 
Cobblestones said:
So the drone which got 'out of control' and was 'lost' over Iran now turns out to have been on a CIA spy mission. So how is an 'out of control' drone on a supposed 'border control' mission different from 'out of control' 'students' trashing the UK embassy, precisely?

Because it's THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE.
 
Cobblestones said:
Hah! And not even the 'shot down' part has been acknowledged.

How do such things work? Can the Iranians sell the drone to Russia or China for a security council veto promise? Fars News agency indicates the presence of Russian specialists at an earlier incident.

My feeling is that since rhetoric against Iran has stepped up and now possibly surveillance as well, this is leading up to a confrontation because of the nuclear issues. What I don't know is whether the loss of the drone will heat up or cool down the desire for war. It may depend on the circumstances. If it really was an accidental loss, then it likely doesn't matter. If it was shot down, then there will be some concerns. If, as Iran claims, it was lost due to electronic warfare, then this is a real problem for the US.

Basically, we're right at the heart of the middle east problem. Traditionally, the three great countries/ethnicities in the regions are the Turks, the Arabs and the Persians. Turkey has been part of NATO for a long time, but clearly, with the breaking up of the SU and the emergence of several new central Asian countries inhabited by Turks, Turkey's influence is on the rise, and opportunities abound. It has led to a resurgence of Turkish self-assurance which has already led to changes in their Israel policy and their diplomatic efforts vis a vis Iran (entirely unappreciated by the US). Also, clearly the Turkish economy has benefitted enormously over the recent years.

Arabs traditionally have looked toward Egypt as their natural leader. That hasn't been the case though since Nasser. The role of Arab leadership has instead been taken by the Saudis, mostly because of their oil and military support by the US. This is why the Arab revolution, in particular in Egypt, has not been supported by the West. It threatens to shift the balance of Arab leadership back from the Saudis to an unpredictable Egypt.

Finally Iran and Persians. Squeezed between Iraq and Afghanistan on both sides and looking across the Persian Gulf to a US backed Saudi Arabia, and considering the mostly disastrous meddling of US in Iran over the last 80 years, one shouldn't be surprised to find a great dose of paranoia. Of course, everybody would be happier if Iran were a more socially liberal country with respect for women's and gays rights and religious freedom. Now, the problem is clearly that an external threat to Iran, which is how NATO and the US are perceived (rightfully IMHO), will not help. Neither is propping up the Saudis where women's rights are in worse shape than in Iran. It is (rightfully) seen as hypocrisy. For completeness, there's more examples of hypocrisy involving Israel, but I don't want to go there since it will only detract from the issues.

Finally a few words on the non proliferation treaty. It is not fair, but it was a masterpiece of realpolitik. It acknowledged the presence of nuclear weapons in all countries which possessed them at the time. Besides the obvious goal of non-proliferation, it allowed each country to develop nuclear energy, and it had a promise of the five nuclear powers to disarm (eventually). Almost every nation on earth (with very few exceptions) joined the treaty, which made it work for a long time.

Nowadays, of course, the treaty is known to have been broken several times (e.g. North Korea, South Africa during apartheid), the promise of eventual disarmament has not panned out, and sadly, the three non-signatory nations (Israel, Pak!stan, India) have all developed nuclear weapons. Furthermore, US policy has been to interpret the treaty very narrowly in terms of enrichment and reprocessing.

What is needed is a new treaty rooted in the same spirit of realpolitik as the old one. First of all, it has to acknowledge all present nuclear powers in order to make it possible for Israel, India and Pak!stan to join. Then, it needs a firmer promise of total nuclear disarmament on a regional and global level. Clearly, during the cold war, nothing like that was possible. Nowadays, maybe. The good news is that with the end of the cold war, massive amounts of warheads have already disappeared. Cooperation between the by far largest powers, US and Russia, seems to work and a decent amount of trust and good will has been building. Moreover, the lure of nuclear power has waned considerably since the 1960s making the whole issue of nuclear technology a much less important topic.

Anyway, a renegotiation of the NPT would be useful, if only to acknowledge the changed realities. The shift in US policy toward India might also point in that direction.

ETA: shoot, I forgot about the filter. Maybe we should rename Pak!stan Uzbekibekibekistanistan. That should work fine for everybody.

The struggle has been reduced to a Muslim vs. non-Muslim dialectic. The problem from the getty-up with nuclear weapons and realpolitk is that it has always been based on the later, nothing objective that is.

And then what? Everybody that has their bombs gets to keep them? But nobody else has the "right" to have them? In an international order that lasts forever.
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
...ok this may be from left field, but it may, if true, have some bearing on the drone downing...

...in a discussion about drones on another forum there was a point made by one poster which went as follows....drones or rather warfare which utilizes drones is a particularly hideous enterprise because it can only be used against a very technologically inferior opponent... apparently drones will literally glow in the dark when hit by even the simplest of radars...so their use is very limited ...they are a high tech version of Italian aircraft strafing Ethiopian horsemen during the 30's....

..now if that is indeed the case ( and that is a big if ) why would this drone have been sent over Iran ?... which we can assume has radar and the means to bring down a relatively slow moving aircraft...

...I bring this up because this whole Iranian thing makes no sense...attack Iran which claims not to be on the path to nuclear weapons and the price of energy spikes and the world economy goes up in smoke...but that is simply not a winning move !....or is it quite possible that it is the Iranian oil bourse that is the problem, after all, Iraq and Libya both were attacked after they challenged the world financial hegemony....

...so it may not actually be Muslim vs non-Muslim...but a financially allied group of countries battling against outliers, who can, if organized, become a major problem as oil and other raw materials become a bigger issue....and in that regard the Libyian bank initiative for Africa could have been seen as a serious attack on the existing order of things....

Cheers

blutto
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
Cobblestones said:
Hah! And not even the 'shot down' part has been acknowledged....

....Anyway, a renegotiation of the NPT would be useful, if only to acknowledge the changed realities. The shift in US policy toward India might also point in that direction.

ETA: shoot, I forgot about the filter. Maybe we should rename Pak!stan Uzbekibekibekistanistan. That should work fine for everybody.

The only official word out is from Fars and that claims that Iran used some form of measure to take the drone down.

Thanks and interesting analysis and there aren't many answers though to these countless questions. Well anyway, I hope there isn't another conflict in the region.

About the NPT, there's a problem in trying to incorporate all nuclear nations within the treaty, how does one differentiate between a country like India and North Korea, who have a whimsical and clearly not dependable regime.

I also don't dislike Bush because he took a ballsy decision to come up with the Indo-US nuclear pact, something I don't believe Obama has (at least in terms of foreign policy). The only thing he has done is shift some of the focus from Afghanistan to Pakistan.
 
Jun 16, 2009
19,654
2
0
For those who follow Australian politics, I found this little gem the other day.

The GROG (Get Rid OF Gillard) party!:D

They have a Twitter account!

They also have their own online shop!

You can get a GROG Party drinking glass for $17.50.:D

Well at least I found it funny!:eek:
 
Jun 16, 2009
19,654
2
0
Ferminal said:
lol WTF is Monckton doing there?

Surely if a group had a credible point to put across they wouldn't recruit a nutter like him to promote their message.
He is speaking at the Climate Change conference in Durban so they did a sky jump to try to get some media to listen to his message.

His eyes look like they are going to pop out of their head. :p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.