Would you like to see a return of the 100 K TTT at Worlds and the Olympics?

[CyclistAbi]

Funny how this never needs to be said out loud about football.

It is and it isn't. That is it's a team sport, when it comes to climbing support and things like that. And it's individual sport, when it comes to taking credit.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Funny how this never needs to be said out loud about football.

That's because despite what the media would have you believe, Lionel Messi did not win the World Cup, Argentina did.

Cycling may be a team sport, but its accolades are individual, and this is why the TTT is so contentious when it comes to the individual classification. As I've mentioned a number of times, Michele Scarponi lost more time to Ivan Basso in the 32km TTT at the 2010 Giro than he did in the rest of the race combined. Why did he lose that time? Because he rode for Androni Giocattoli and not Liquigas, so his TTT time was limited to whatever pace Jackson Rodríguez could hang on to.

While you can argue "that's because Androni should have brought more TT riders", there was literally one rider on their roster not on their Giro squad who might have improved the TTT squad, and he was injured. And besides, whether or not Michele Scarponi can win the Giro should not depend on the TT skills of a random domestique.

Seeing as the TTT places more control of the race in the hands of those who are already best equipped to control it, I can only imagine that most people who are in favour of the TTT as part of a stage race would be people who support riders on the strongest TTT teams, or perhaps cheered for riders like the Schlecks for whom a 40km ITT would be a death sentence for their aspirations but a 40km TTT is a chance to gain time on riders who are far better than them against the clock because they can be towed around by Fabian Cancellara and Jens Voigt. If you like it because it looks cool, then great, put it in a standalone event - like the one the thread title proposes. Because in such an event, the team is actually who gets the win. Not one individual member of it, as in stage races.

Or get carving some stone or forging some metals and study Lenin's likeness.

 

[proffate]

That's because despite what the media would have you believe, Lionel Messi did not win the World Cup, Argentina did.

Cycling may be a team sport, but its accolades are individual, and this is why the TTT is so contentious when it comes to the individual classification. As I've mentioned a number of times, Michele Scarponi lost more time to Ivan Basso in the 32km TTT at the 2010 Giro than he did in the rest of the race combined. Why did he lose that time? Because he rode for Androni Giocattoli and not Liquigas, so his TTT time was limited to whatever pace Jackson Rodríguez could hang on to.

While you can argue "that's because Androni should have brought more TT riders", there was literally one rider on their roster not on their Giro squad who might have improved the TTT squad, and he was injured. And besides, whether or not Michele Scarponi can win the Giro should not depend on the TT skills of a random domestique.

Seeing as the TTT places more control of the race in the hands of those who are already best equipped to control it, I can only imagine that most people who are in favour of the TTT as part of a stage race would be people who support riders on the strongest TTT teams, or perhaps cheered for riders like the Schlecks for whom a 40km ITT would be a death sentence for their aspirations but a 40km TTT is a chance to gain time on riders who are far better than them against the clock because they can be towed around by Fabian Cancellara and Jens Voigt. If you like it because it looks cool, then great, put it in a standalone event - like the one the thread title proposes. Because in such an event, the team is actually who gets the win. Not one individual member of it, as in stage races.

I'm not sure what point you think I was making but since you think GC shouldn't be decided by a TTT it sounds like you don't think cycling is or should be a team sport. Probably most people actually feel this way which is why we're constantly being reminded it's a team sport by those who feel differently. So it's at least a matter of debate or it wouldn't be harped on so frequently.

As to the bolded, I suspect lifelong doms or even winners turned dom go home with a high when their team wins the TDF. You think Kwia is doing it all for a paycheck and doesn't go home with a sense of contentment and accomplishment when his leader takes the V? Not to mention the DS, nutritionist, mechanic, etc. So no, I don't agree that only one rider wins the race, but I do agree that we don't need to make it even harder for an underdog team to win.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

The WCs have been my 2nd Christmas Eve from late 1970s, i.e. highlight of the year. And the highlight of highlights for me as a boy was the four-men 100K national team TT, whereamong my first heroes arose (apart from Le Tour from 1979 and onwards).

What was special was the prolonged enjoyment, where you got into the 'zone' for longer periods of standstill, without much commentary and infrequent time updates - just the enjoyment of 4 riders' style in perfect symbiosis. And then when suddenly something dramatic happened, it seemed very intense.

In similar fashion I enjoyed the old-fashioned "Fem Mila" (50K) ski cross-country, where the XC skirunners were sent off one-by-one and you had the extended heroic endurance battle, the pain in the faces, long, tough cross-strokes, one-by-one in a half-day performance for the entire event.

But in the same way as with the ultra-long ITTs in the 80s, I'm afraid that no modern TV channels will bite.
The most essential pleasure is to catch the audience "in the zone" where maybe not much happens.
And for the little kids who have grown up and who demand entertainment every 2 minutes, they would evaporate from the ground within few minutes in sheer impatience.

So it will be for the few national TV companies that can abide by not interrupting with commercials in the middle of it all, and even if I put a hundred coins in the wishing well, my faith is in a very small place that this would happen.

But an answer to thread title is, ofcourse, a resounding clear 'YES!' from here.
Especially if I could turn back time and it could become a purely popular event devoid of extraneous entertainment to keep the cattle at the trough.

Edit:
And for the purist here, the classic four-men 100K TTT is absolutely no-go in GT's.

It would be like inviting Elmer Fudd with his hunting rifle to a birthday party at Donald Duck and his ducklings.

It only comes to glory in the right perspective via its original form during WC and Olympics IMO.

And four primarily TT men (five with the reserve), who normally compete against each other, can easily try things out and test over the course of a week with fine symbiotic results.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Well all their races on the WT are shorter, so it makes sense the same applies to Worlds and Olympics.

But that removes the essentials for me :
the soul and respect of our shared history of cycling.

No need for FoMo millenials to invent brand new alternative flying saucers in an attempt to find soul in something they'd rather remake just in order to remake. That's directly into my books of puke.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Are you ok? Lol

Nobody in their right mind would ever want another meaningless flat stage

I know oddball here don't own a right mind, but I really miss my afternoon naps during early 90ies when La Vuelta was in spring time and you-know-what of dystopian high plateau quarter-mile wide unstoppable, endlessly straight highways, the vague buzzing of the commentators' messing about everything and nothing and not at least the *flop-flop-flop* meshmerizing sound of the TV heli.

My best sleep ever.

Only interrupted almost choked by the tongue down the throat by sudden hysterical shouts in the last 500 meters, when it is all so suddenly over.

Those flat stages made so much sense.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But in the same way as with the ultra-long ITTs in the 80s, I'm afraid that no modern TV channels will bite.
The most essential pleasure is to catch the audience "in the zone" where maybe not much happens.
And for the little kids who have grown up and who demand entertainment every 2 minutes, they would evaporate from the ground within few minutes in sheer impatience.

The problem is that it's always old men in suit sports administrators telling old men advertising executives what they think young people like, and old men advertising executives nodding sagely in agreement.

The problem is not that the younger generation demand entertainment every 2 minutes, otherwise this would not also be the generation of binge-watching, and "Slow TV" would never have taken off. The problem is not the attention span of young people, that is no different from that of the generations preceding it and once you have their attention they can watch for hours. The problem is getting that attention in the first place in a marketplace with so much more choice in it than for generations gone by where the number of alternative options was limited; you need to have a hook, a reason for people channel surfing to stop on what you're offering.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

The problem is that it's always old men in suit sports administrators telling old men advertising executives what they think young people like, and old men advertising executives nodding sagely in agreement.

The problem is not that the younger generation demand entertainment every 2 minutes, otherwise this would not also be the generation of binge-watching, and "Slow TV" would never have taken off. The problem is not the attention span of young people, that is no different from that of the generations preceding it and once you have their attention they can watch for hours. The problem is getting that attention in the first place in a marketplace with so much more choice in it than for generations gone by where the number of alternative options was limited; you need to have a hook, a reason for people channel surfing to stop on what you're offering.

I'll wear the positive glasses.

Bingers and zappers with endless choices, of which can be stressfull in itself, a portion will hunt for something to settle for.

And with this event without commercial breaks they can surely settle.

No need for gossip teasers, the title sells itself.

UCI, why wait?

 

[Cookster15]

you need to have a hook, a reason for people channel surfing to stop on what you're offering.

And why wouldn't channel surfing young people be hooked by a once per year TTT? Its very different to yet another a flat stage.

 

[RedheadDane]

Here's what I'd like to see:
Split screens, showing the four best teams at the time.
If something noteworthy happens with one team, they'll of course get full screen.

 

[Boehmand]

But that removes the essentials for me :
the soul and respect of our shared history of cycling.

No need for FoMo millenials to invent brand new alternative flying saucers in an attempt to find soul in something they'd rather remake just in order to remake. That's directly into my books of puke.

There is no shared history of women riding 100 K TTTs - they never did it.

What "millennials" have got to do with it I don't quite know?

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Here's what I'd like to see:
Split screens, showing the four best teams at the time.
If something noteworthy happens with one team, they'll of course get full screen.

Now I def need a 100" TV in order not to miss the individual squad riding styles.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

There is no shared history of women riding 100 K TTTs - they never did it.

What "millennials" have got to do with it I don't quite know?

The title says it all.
Much more glamour and soul in it IMO.

"Woman 75K national team TT" just looks like another random UCI invention to me.

 

[CyclistAbi]

The problem is not that the younger generation demand entertainment every 2 minutes, otherwise this would not also be the generation of binge-watching, and "Slow TV" would never have taken off. The problem is not the attention span of young people, that is no different from that of the generations preceding it and once you have their attention they can watch for hours.

Well, it has gone way beyond being a problem.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And why wouldn't channel surfing young people be hooked by a once per year TTT? Its very different to yet another a flat stage.

I'm not saying they wouldn't. It's a separate issue from what I was previously talking about. I like the idea of standalone TTTs and the 100km four-man TTT in a Worlds or Olympics has enough history and tradition to it. It was more about the way "young people have no attention span" is used by many sports administrators as a crutch to justify every move they make that messes up their own sport, running off their existing audience in the pursuit of a hypothetical one.

 

[Hugh Januss]

How about a once a year stand alone WT 100K TTT with generous WT points.

 

[RedheadDane]

Now I def need a 100" TV in order not to miss the individual squad riding styles.

Hey, at least I didn't suggest that every team out on the route should be shown. I'm not crazy, you know.

 

[memyselfandI]

No for 100k, it's too boring long. But both thumbs up for TTT in OG and Worlds. Just simulate and shoot for 1hr racetime for the winner and make semi-undulating semi-technical fast course.

 

[Boehmand]

No for 100k, it's too boring long. But both thumbs up for TTT in OG and Worlds. Just simulate and shoot for 1hr racetime for the winner and make semi-undulating semi-technical fast course.

To me that's like suggesting making monuments and championship races shorter, to compress the entertainment.

I think the length in itself holds the key to entertainment, even if it happens mostly towards the end, because when you get above 60-70K TTT weird stuff starts happening to the bodies, intake of fluids and energy supplements starts being an issue, technical issues become more likely (but also less catastrophic), the 3rd rider (the one counting) has a harder time hanging on, etc.

 

[memyselfandI]

Every ITT and TTT over one hour is boring and waste of time. And they're completely different thing than long day races or stage races, let me clarify just that, no more apple and oranges, thank you very much!

 

[CHGJ2000]

Bad faith argument as GP specifically mentioned equipment and not body position or power.

The fact remains that the contours of a plastic hat can decide the winner and that somewhat makes a mockery of sport. If you're a mech e then maybe it's exciting but it's still not adding to the sporting aspect. That said, you are right that ergo racing is pretty dumb. ITT is only a half step above that.

To the original question --- this would be boring to watch so no. Same idea as team sprint (or rowing) but the boredom lasts longer. There's a reason no one watches track cycling except maybe one day every four years.

Bad faith argument from you because he said those two points in separate sentences. The most aero rider is almost certainly going to be the guy who has the best body position, build and ability to hold themselves in a shrugged aggressive position throughout a race. Not the guy with the fastest bike (lol) or “fastest helmet” which is an incredibly funny point considering the fastest helmet for a person is incredibly build and position dependent. Just have to follow track or pay attention to teams that don’t have TT helmet sponsors to know that.

Being able to hold an exceptional position and produce lots of power making you an exceptional rider in TTs shouldn’t be belittled just like being able to hold a low weight and lots of power. Both take tonnes of discipline, hard work and great genetics.

Also on the skinsuit point Remco has had a well fitting suit for like one TT in the last two years (his castelli ones have consistently been a travesty up until Chrono des Nations)

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

TTTs look amazing, but to be honest, ITTs are more interesting.

I actually would like a return of the very long ITTs that existed in France (Chrono des Nations or GP des Nations, or similar). The lengths of the courses led to winning times of 1.5 to 2 hours. Very long ITTs. That is something great.

I think at the Giro that Menchov won, 2009, there was a >60kms ITT on a hilly course. Also a great thing.

So my opinion: 100 kms TTTs at OGs or WCs would be nice. I however would prefer to exist permanent long ITTs in Grand Tours, major tours and one day races, with difficult parcours, maybe ridden even (partly) on regular road bikes.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Hey, at least I didn't suggest that every team out on the route should be shown. I'm not crazy, you know.

Hey that was a (maybe vague) joke from here

If you take my first post here as a point of departure, you'll know I'm def not looking for a spiced up format;

I really, really miss the very special mental state of an uninterrupted 100k TTT absolute slow-TV.

Where maybe not much happens for longer periods, but like a film with intermezzo and climax, and where you follow the battle of 4 riders almost in a trance-like manner, without too many zapper clips.

That format can do something truly unique once the viewer is hooked.

Once the devil of impatience is decomissioned, the heroic struggle and clear challenges between the riders when it really matters IMO the total ebent and broadcasting formay is lifted to more than just cycling. At least to me. When that feeling comes rolling to you as a 9-year-old, it is so intense that you don't forget it and want it back.

I liked that kind of TV.
Wished there was a lot more of it nowadays.

 

[RedheadDane]

Hey that was a (maybe vague) joke from here

If you take my first post here as a point of departure, you'll know I'm def not looking for a spiced up format;

I really, really miss the very special mental state of an uninterrupted 100k TTT absolute slow-TV.

Where maybe not much happens for longer periods, but like a film with intermezzo and climax, and where you follow the battle of 4 riders almost in a trance-like manner, without too many zapper clips.

That format can do something truly unique once the viewer is hooked.

Once the devil of impatience is decomissioned, the heroic struggle and clear challenges between the riders when it really matters IMO the total ebent and broadcasting formay is lifted to more than just cycling. At least to me. When that feeling comes rolling to you as a 9-year-old, it is so intense that you don't forget it and want it back.

I liked that kind of TV.
Wished there was a lot more of it nowadays.

Better to show multiple teams at the same time, than constantly switching back-and-forth between teams.
And just showing the same team all the time - ignoring all the others - would of course be out of the question.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Better to show multiple teams at the same time, than constantly switching back-and-forth between teams.
And just showing the same team all the time - ignoring all the others - would of course be out of the question.

Agree on the latter part, ofcourse.

However, the 100K TTT was a protracted event, AFAIR up to 7 minutes between the teams on the starting ramp (correct me if my memory is playing games with me here).
What comes bright to my mind, however, is that the TV broadcasting producers did not make unnecessarily quick zaps of living pictures.
Hence, you could easily have timeframes with entire 2 mins of TV broadcasting focusing on a single team, without missing the essential race overview.

And these are the moments - where TV pictures makes it feasable for the viewer to observe the nuances between the 4 riders - and especially the last 30k where the discipline really is turning to take its toll, where retaining the images delivers an absolutely unique and essential nuance for this very special type challenge.

Completely different ball game with a short 26k Le Tour TTT , where it makes every sense with quick camera shifts, pictures-in-picture and so on.

Well, different times.
Some TV broadcasters really good at getting it all in, while other TV productions seem like they are mostly concerned about demonstrating how big a camera crew they have brought to the event.