Xenon

[joegrip]

Why ban it?

Exactly why was xenon banned? It is present in air, so everyone is breathing it already. There is also no evidence at all the xenon increase EPO in humans. See this article for a description of all the problems with banning xenon for sports performance.

In any case, there is no test for xenon. And if the biological passport was catching it, WADA would have known about it long ago. WADA found out about it by reading articles on the internet -- not because xenon somehow was throwing ABP parameters off.

In any case, xenon is not that expensive and readily available, so I expect its use will only increase because of the ban. The ABP (passport) requires numerous blood tests per year and is only administered to the top riders. For everyone else, there is simply no way to get caught. They can't ban you with just 1 blood test. So until you can a couple of them, you can use any thing that is not directly detectible (EPO is directly detectible).

 

[King Boonen]

Exactly why was xenon banned? It is present in air, so everyone is breathing it already. There is also no evidence at all the xenon increase EPO in humans. See this article for a description of all the problems with banning xenon for sports performance.

In any case, there is no test for xenon. And if the biological passport was catching it, WADA would have known about it long ago. WADA found out about it by reading articles on the internet -- not because xenon somehow was throwing ABP parameters off.

In any case, xenon is not that expensive and readily available, so I expect its use will only increase because of the ban. The ABP (passport) requires numerous blood tests per year and is only administered to the top riders. For everyone else, there is simply no way to get caught. They can't ban you with just 1 blood test. So until you can a couple of them, you can use any thing that is not directly detectible (EPO is directly detectible).

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[Benotti69]

To the bolded, evidence please.

See Prentice Steffen's comments.

What I think of any teams is irrelevant here. You seem to think the UCI banned xenon and must have mis-read my post, I would not need to ask WADA why they banned something they don't have a test for, I can see the perfectly logical reasons to do it.

It's not whether they are now going to catch them or not, it is putting the rules in place so they can be banned if they are caught.

Rules schmules as far as team, riders, DS, docs, soigneurs etc are concerned. The toothless anti doping rolls on.

 

[Benotti69]

Gee maybe they shouldn't have banned EPO until the 00s.

Are they going to introduce a policy of backdating testing and keep samples in order to do it?

Because no point banning something now unless they are going to test for the time they suspected it was in use.

I doubt it. They didn't do much back testing of CERA.

 

[hrotha]

Are they going to introduce a policy of backdating testing and keep samples in order to do it?

Because no point banning something now unless they are going to test for the time they suspected it was in use.

I doubt it. They didn't do much back testing of CERA.

Of course they're not going to introduce that policy, even though the legal framework for it already exists. Not sure what that has to do with anything, though.

 

[King Boonen]

See Prentice Steffen's comments.

A single comment with no time-frame reference. That does not back up your assertion.

 

[Granville57]

Maybe there's no way to detect xenon in an organism, but if you can establish a rider or team used it through other means, you can act on that. Is it perfect? Far from it. But it's much better than the alternative.

The one thing that comes to mind is that if any team were ever found to be in possession of it, under any circumstances, it's good to have it explicitly listed as a banned substance.

 

[Benotti69]

A single comment with no time-frame reference. That does not back up your assertion.

In FebruaryThe Economist published an article suggesting that Russian athletes have been using xenon gas as a performance-enhancing substances for a decade or more.

Since you are not listening, you go find the article in The Economist.

cyclingtips have written about xenon gas.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Going back to the code as written before yesterday,

Erythropoiesis-Stimulating Agents [e.g. erythropoietin (EPO), darbepoetin (dEPO), hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF) stabilizers, methoxy polyethylene glycol-epoetin beta (CERA), peginesatide (Hematide)];


All they have done, is add Xenon and argon as examples of HIF stabilizers.


This pretty much cements my opinion, that their use was already against the code.

Still doesn't give them a test though.

 

[thehog]

What I could find about the way Xe is assumed to work, doesn't look very promising when developing a test for it is concerned. Apparently Xe increases the amount of a protein HIF1A, which in turn increases the amount of EPO, until the body realises it gets enough oxygen and this protein is broken down again. This article tells us a bit about the pathway towards HIF1A creation and where Xe affects this; it somehow increases expression of the so-called mTOR protein.

In order to get some testing done, there would have to be a relatively easy to spot difference between normally increased HIF1A production and Xenon-induced HIF1A production, which doesn't sound easy at all, especially since altitude training might very well already have an effect on the amount of HIF1A in one's body. There are apparently two different types of HIF1A inside the human body and research on the ratio of these two may be done, where this ratio is compared in both situations. I, however, wouldn't like to see another ratio test in PED-detection.

Another option would be to do more research as to how exactly the mTOR protein is stimulated. This diagram (admittedly, taken from wikipedia) might give an indication why this is a rather difficult way to go. It may be that more research on this has been done since the article mentioned above, since that's five years old by now. I couldn't find it with a quick search, though. All in all, I'd expect it to take quite some time yet before an actual test is developed.


Apart from all this, there is the question why cyclistswould turn to using xenon gas at all, since it 'just' increases the amount of EPO in the end and is a rather expensive, indirect and elaborate method of doing so in a time where microdosing EPO seems to work just as well. The only real difference between microdosing and xenon seems to be that the effects of xenon last somewhat longer. This would make xenon only suitable for races lasting more than one day, but then there's the large problem of logistics. Transporting canisters of the gas in itself isn't easy and to do so during a race that's constantly on the move (like a GT), while all the time avoiding public and press, doesn't seem worth it. Don't forget these canisters can't just be transported by motorcycle, like blood bags can. And where would riders inhale the gas? You can't go around moving canisters into hotels, for instance. The only real reason for using xenon in cycling I can see, is that a DS doesn't want to lie, when claiming his team is doing its utmost best in enforcing a no-needle policy.

Yes, all true.

Sounds like a wonderful altitude training drug to me. Come down pre-race and use the effects and then back up again.

 

[rhubroma]

So? Do you think nothing should be done unless it single-handedly stops all doping?

Maybe there's no way to detect xenon in an organism, but if you can establish a rider or team used it through other means, you can act on that. Is it perfect? Far from it. But it's much better than the alternative.

No, but I'm starting to wonder what in the future will constitute doping and what will be considered in light of all the tech progress simple modernity.

While all the focus remains on the "drug" issue, without addressing all the other advantages that have come by means of evolution, then I think the situation will remain one of always catering to the "not much better alternative."

 

[King Boonen]

In FebruaryThe Economist published an article suggesting that Russian athletes have been using xenon gas as a performance-enhancing substances for a decade or more.

Since you are not listening, you go find the article in The Economist.

cyclingtips have written about xenon gas.

you still have not backed up your assertion that cycling teams have probably been using it for years, and I cannot remember even one doper mentioning it when they have come clean.

In general:

The cyclingtips article is slightly interesting, but it clearly states, that there is basically no research in this area. One study on mice as far as I can find.

Their assertion that you would not be able to carry out a study on healthy athletes using xenon is flat out wrong.

And lets be clear. None of the claims from Atom Medical Centre have ever been proved or even published as far as I can find.


I'm in agreement with Dear Wiggo at the moment. This just seems like misdirection at the moment.

 

[Benotti69]

you still have not backed up your assertion that cycling teams have probably been using it for years, and I cannot remember even one doper mentioning it when they have come clean.

So all that proves is omerta is still strong. When cyclists were asked they refused to answer!

In general:

The cyclingtips article is slightly interesting, but it clearly states, that there is basically no research in this area. One study on mice as far as I can find.

Their assertion that you would not be able to carry out a study on healthy athletes using xenon is flat out wrong.

And lets be clear. None of the claims from Atom Medical Centre have ever been proved or even published as far as I can find.

UCI have added it to their ban substance list. Yet you who argue that cycling is cleanER think no one uses it, so why did they add it?

 

[Avoriaz]

So all that proves is omerta is still strong. When cyclists were asked they refused

Not really. The Armstrong investigations revealed a veritable cornucopia of drugs and techniques. Xenon was not mentioned. Why mention the others but be all coy about this.

And since Lance was the spike of the dart of doping research, if he wasn't using it why would others be?

 

[veganrob]

Not really. The Armstrong investigations revealed a veritable cornucopia of drugs and techniques. Xenon was not mentioned. Why mention the others but be all coy about this.

And since Lance was the spike of the dart of doping research, if he wasn't using it why would others be?

Maybe Lance tried Xe and it did not work very good for him. Maybe he had better stuff. Don't know. After all, he was protected.
LA last raced in 2010. That is a long time ago in doping technique years. I am sure the dopers and doctors are way ahead of then. And still are ahead of the tests. By years. It is a constant game of catch up for the testers. For someone to get caught nowadays they have too be really stupid and primitive. Catching AC was pure luck, and UCI still tried to cover it up.

 

[HSNHSN]

you still have not backed up your assertion that cycling teams have probably been using it for years, and I cannot remember even one doper mentioning it when they have come clean.

In general:

The cyclingtips article is slightly interesting, but it clearly states, that there is basically no research in this area. One study on mice as far as I can find.

Their assertion that you would not be able to carry out a study on healthy athletes using xenon is flat out wrong.

And lets be clear. None of the claims from Atom Medical Centre have ever been proved or even published as far as I can find.


I'm in agreement with Dear Wiggo at the moment. This just seems like misdirection at the moment.

This sounds more or less right. Except that the article I linked to above mentioned both research in mice and research in (in vitro) human cell lines. It probably still is a misdirection, though.

 

[King Boonen]

This sounds more or less right. Except that the article I linked to above mentioned both research in mice and research in (in vitro) human cell lines. It probably still is a misdirection, though.

My fault, I flicked to the methods, saw the gas exposure and reperfusion method and didn't read on.

 

[King Boonen]

So all that proves is omerta is still strong. When cyclists were asked they refused to answer!

But why? It appears that many think it wasn't doping in the first place, WADA included, yet I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned. I don't see why people would come out about all their other doping but not mention something that many view (or viewed) as a legitimate training method. Doesn't make sense.

UCI have added it to their ban substance list. Yet you who argue that cycling is cleanER think no one uses it, so why did they add it?

You mean WADA.

Because there are indications that it could work and that is has been used. That doesn't mean loads of people have done it, it doesn't mean it does work, but based on the evidence it is sensible to add it to the list.

Lets also be clear on this. My opinion is that it was already covered by the WADA prohibited list, but it seems that WADA disagree with this and have felt it necessary to add both xenon and argon as named prohibited substances and a sentence to cover other things used in the same way.

This means that any use of xenon before this comes into effect (three months after the announcement) was not doping in the eyes of WADA.

 

[Benotti69]

Not really. The Armstrong investigations revealed a veritable cornucopia of drugs and techniques. Xenon was not mentioned. Why mention the others but be all coy about this.

It was not a banned substance so why mention it then?

And since Lance was the spike of the dart of doping research, if he wasn't using it why would others be?

Lance had a pass on the illegal stuff, why would he need to use the legal stuff?

 

[hrotha]

Actovegin isn't banned either and yet we've heard lots about its use in the peloton.

 

[Benotti69]

Actovegin isn't banned either and yet we've heard lots about its use in the peloton.

Just because USPS used actovegin a lot, which is not banned, no reason to believe that were not using xenon in 09/10 when Armstrong claims to be have been clean.