Xenon

[King Boonen]

Doesn't this assume, perhaps falsely, that someone would be following "legitimate" channels in order to do something very illegitimate? Surely there are ways around this, no?


Out of curiosity, is this the range of weights and sizes that one could expect to find xenon stored in?

http://www.boconline.co.uk/en/sheq/gas-safety/cylinder-weights-sizes/cylinder-weights-size/cylinder-weights-size.html

(If your expertise in this area was covered in detail in the past, I apologize for being uninformed on the matter)

That's the right size guide. the largest can be carried on your shoulder pretty easily, but not for very long.

It does assume that, but they're not the easiest thing to get hold through any sources other than distributors and there aren't many of them, it's a bit different from finding a dodgy pharmacist. It's also pretty expensive, although I've never ordered it, I'm just assuming based on the method of producing it. It's also probably not a regular order so would be easy to trace.

To provide a high enough flow for someone to breathe for a few minutes (I found times quoted of 45 seconds to a few minutes to dope with it) would required the largest size. You're talking around 50-100L/min for a healthy person at rest. So you're getting about 5-10 minutes out of the biggest tank available. You can start to see the logistical problems of doping with xenon now WADA have added it to the prohibited list.

No worries, I've never really said what I do, qualifications etc.

 

[King Boonen]

I wonder if BOC track page visits and are wondering why the number of people interested in xenon has gone up...?

 

[Granville57]

I think this is worth revisiting

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/xenon-gas-should-be-banned-says-garmin-sharp-doctor
Prentice Steffen MD, head physician at Garmin-Sharp, told Cyclingnews that although the team he worked for looked into the idea of using the Xenon, they were quickly put off

I should/will add that Steffen wouldn't name the team as it wasn't a first hand account.

Based on the original quote from Steffen, most of us, I think, seemed to think that he was referring to Team Garmin. But considering Benson's post, perhaps the quote was meant to say, "a team he once worked for."

This story never gained much traction, and I don't recall JV ever commenting on it (besides humorous references on twitter). So, could it have been another team? If so, which one?

Based on this article:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2008/interviews/?id=prentice_steffen_feb08
Here is my understanding of the teams that Prentice Steffen worked for at one time or another:

US National team in the '80s
Coors Light
Spago-Rossin
Subaru-Montgomery/US Postal
Mercury
Prime Alliance
Health Net
TIAA-CREF/Slipstream

Some of these would likely be out of the question due to the time frame, but what of the others? If not Garmin, then who was Steffen referring to? Is it even realistic to think that US Postal could've been toying with this idea some 15 years ago?


Also, is it just me, or is there no link on the Garmin website to their current staff?
http://www.slipstreamsports.com

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I wonder if BOC track page visits and are wondering why the number of people interested in xenon has gone up...?

IMO page visits are more about B2C, where as exotic (?) gas sales would be more B2B. A different relationship, and - at a guess - a different sales channel / method.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That's the right size guide. the largest can be carried on your shoulder pretty easily, but not for very long.

It does assume that, but they're not the easiest thing to get hold through any sources other than distributors and there aren't many of them, it's a bit different from finding a dodgy pharmacist. It's also pretty expensive, although I've never ordered it, I'm just assuming based on the method of producing it. It's also probably not a regular order so would be easy to trace.

To provide a high enough flow for someone to breathe for a few minutes (I found times quoted of 45 seconds to a few minutes to dope with it) would required the largest size. You're talking around 50-100L/min for a healthy person at rest. So you're getting about 5-10 minutes out of the biggest tank available. You can start to see the logistical problems of doping with xenon now WADA have added it to the prohibited list.

No worries, I've never really said what I do, qualifications etc.

Interesting info, good to read. Makes me think even more that it's all a ruse to misdirect potential dopers, dopers looking for the next big thing and the anti-doping orgs.

 

[King Boonen]

IMO page visits are more about B2C, where as exotic (?) gas sales would be more B2B. A different relationship, and at a guess a different sales channel / method.

Possibly, but anyone wanting it for research will be looking at the website, at least we did. Businesses are probably assigned to account managers, but that's pure speculation...

 

[King Boonen]

Interesting info, good to read. Makes me think even more that it's all a ruse to misdirect potential dopers, dopers looking for the next big thing and the anti-doping orgs.

I think you're right, I've not even looked up the mode of action so I'm unsure if you could do the same thing with any reduction oxygen atmosphere. Before it was banned (I personally think it was already covered but that's moot now) it would have been fairly easy to do. Now it's pretty much impossible without someone finding out.

 

[zigmeister]

So what is the exact blood/urine test for Xenon?

 

[Benotti69]

So what is the exact blood/urine test for Xenon?

Mike Adams ‏@vayerism 37m
xenon gas has been banned.

Good.

Is there a test for xenon gas?

Stop asking stupid questions

I think Mike nailed it.

 

[King Boonen]

So what is the exact blood/urine test for Xenon?

There isn't one as far as I'm aware, or can think of. If it binds to hemoglobin or a specific protein then you could look for those with bound xenon, but I've not looked up the mode of action. This also depends on the xenon being retained during analysis.

In reality, ABP only I think.

 

[King Boonen]

I think Mike nailed it.

Don't like that attitude at all. No question is stupid, people like that really annoy me.

 

[Benotti69]

Don't like that attitude at all. No question is stupid, people like that really annoy me.

You missed the point.

Mike was alluding to the banning of a substance yet they have no test for it.

Hypothetically asking UCI did they have a test and him writing dont ask stupid questions shows where doping is still at in the dark ages and toothless unless they purposely target a rider and then they have to get lucky.

With that in mind why would teams not dope?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Too bad this model doesn't work.

Could have been the perfect way for the team bosses to arrive in Gap for the rest day.

 

[King Boonen]

You missed the point.

Mike was alluding to the banning of a substance yet they have no test for it.

Hypothetically asking UCI did they have a test and him writing dont ask stupid questions shows where doping is still at in the dark ages and toothless unless they purposely target a rider and then they have to get lucky.

With that in mind why would teams not dope?

Fair enough. But why would you not ban something you can't test for?

It would show up in the ABP (although we all the problems with that...).

There's no point in saying "we can't test for it, dope away".

 

[Benotti69]

Fair enough. But why would you not ban something you can't test for?

It would show up in the ABP (although we all the problems with that...).

There's no point in saying "we can't test for it, dope away".

Why dont you ask the UCI? They banned something they dont have a test for.

Dont quote BP. Horner showed how effective that is!

 

[zigmeister]

I think Mike nailed it.

Nailed what? That athletes are going to all of the sudden have a conscious and not use something because it is on some "list"?


Well there you have it!!!! All doping problem solved.

 

[King Boonen]

Why dont you ask the UCI? They banned something they dont have a test for.

Dont quote BP. Horner showed how effective that is!

Huh? Sorry, I'm confused. What did the UCI ban? Ans I said why wouldn't they.


As I said, we all know the problems with the BP, but it is meant to catch things like this that are likely to be impossible to test for.

 

[hrotha]

Gee maybe they shouldn't have banned EPO until the 00s.

 

[Benotti69]

Huh? Sorry, I'm confused. What did the UCI ban? Ans I said why wouldn't they.


As I said, we all know the problems with the BP, but it is meant to catch things like this that are likely to be impossible to test for.

Of course you're confused KB you think Sky are clean FFS!

Considering Xenon has probably been is use for years and teams have adapted their 'usage' to not trip the BP how do you think anti doping are going to now catch users?

 

[gooner]

I think Mike nailed it.

He's just playing to the gallery.

 

[Benotti69]

Nailed what? That athletes are going to all of the sudden have a conscious and not use something because it is on some "list"?


Well there you have it!!!! All doping problem solved.

You dont get sarcasm do you Ziggy, but then you thought in the face of overwhelming evidence that Monkeymouth Armstrong was clean.

Have a livewrong smiley face Zig

 

[rhubroma]

Gee maybe they shouldn't have banned EPO until the 00s.

Indeed, but we saw how that worked! It only saw the doctors and riders become more crafty and specialized in how to take EPO. And when they came up with a test for EPO, transfusions and micro-dosing became the new protocol.
With Xenon, in the absence of hematocrit fluctuations, what would even be the barometer to establish illicit use?

 

[King Boonen]

Of course you're confused KB you think Sky are clean FFS!

Considering Xenon has probably been is use for years and teams have adapted their 'usage' to not trip the BP how do you think anti doping are going to now catch users?

To the bolded, evidence please.

What I think of any teams is irrelevant here. You seem to think the UCI banned xenon and must have mis-read my post, I would not need to ask WADA why they banned something they don't have a test for, I can see the perfectly logical reasons to do it.

It's not whether they are now going to catch them or not, it is putting the rules in place so they can be banned if they are caught.

It's a very simple premise as hrotha has so eloquently described in a single sentence.

 

[hrotha]

Indeed, but we saw how that worked! It only saw the doctors and riders become more crafty and specialized in how to take EPO. And when they came up with a test for EPO, transfusions and micro-dosing became the new protocol.
With Xenon, in the absence of hematocrit fluctuations, what would even be the barometer to establish illicit use?

So? Do you think nothing should be done unless it single-handedly stops all doping?

Maybe there's no way to detect xenon in an organism, but if you can establish a rider or team used it through other means, you can act on that. Is it perfect? Far from it. But it's much better than the alternative.

 

[HSNHSN]

There isn't one as far as I'm aware, or can think of. If it binds to hemoglobin or a specific protein then you could look for those with bound xenon, but I've not looked up the mode of action. This also depends on the xenon being retained during analysis.

In reality, ABP only I think.

What I could find about the way Xe is assumed to work, doesn't look very promising when developing a test for it is concerned. Apparently Xe increases the amount of a protein HIF1A, which in turn increases the amount of EPO, until the body realises it gets enough oxygen and this protein is broken down again. This article tells us a bit about the pathway towards HIF1A creation and where Xe affects this; it somehow increases expression of the so-called mTOR protein.

In order to get some testing done, there would have to be a relatively easy to spot difference between normally increased HIF1A production and Xenon-induced HIF1A production, which doesn't sound easy at all, especially since altitude training might very well already have an effect on the amount of HIF1A in one's body. There are apparently two different types of HIF1A inside the human body and research on the ratio of these two may be done, where this ratio is compared in both situations. I, however, wouldn't like to see another ratio test in PED-detection.

Another option would be to do more research as to how exactly the mTOR protein is stimulated. This diagram (admittedly, taken from wikipedia) might give an indication why this is a rather difficult way to go. It may be that more research on this has been done since the article mentioned above, since that's five years old by now. I couldn't find it with a quick search, though. All in all, I'd expect it to take quite some time yet before an actual test is developed.


Apart from all this, there is the question why cyclistswould turn to using xenon gas at all, since it 'just' increases the amount of EPO in the end and is a rather expensive, indirect and elaborate method of doing so in a time where microdosing EPO seems to work just as well. The only real difference between microdosing and xenon seems to be that the effects of xenon last somewhat longer. This would make xenon only suitable for races lasting more than one day, but then there's the large problem of logistics. Transporting canisters of the gas in itself isn't easy and to do so during a race that's constantly on the move (like a GT), while all the time avoiding public and press, doesn't seem worth it. Don't forget these canisters can't just be transported by motorcycle, like blood bags can. And where would riders inhale the gas? You can't go around moving canisters into hotels, for instance. The only real reason for using xenon in cycling I can see, is that a DS doesn't want to lie, when claiming his team is doing its utmost best in enforcing a no-needle policy.