Xenon

[proffate]

"One such, carried out in 2009 by Mervyn Maze at Imperial College, London, found that exposing mice to a mixture of 70% xenon and 30% oxygen for two hours more than doubled the animals’ EPO levels a day later."

Point of clarification - what does a doubling of EPO levels actually mean? This isn't the same as haemo increases. If you inject EPO is that 2x, 3x, 100x normal levels? Is doubling significant or not?

good question. If it really does spike hematocrit effectively that would trip the bio passport. If taking Xenon is officially allowed that becomes a get out of jail free card for athletes who fail the bio passport (at least those who fail it due to suspicious hct).

 

[chrisbrown2050]

I think it might be this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l98ENa9tLws

From 17:10 for 7 odd minutes. Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[doperhopper]

I guess a hypoxic tent is permissible because it (supposedly) simulates a natural environment. It doesn't actually do a very good job of simulating altitude and doesn't confer real benefit to the user, but that's the theory behind it.

Xenon on the other hand wouldn't simulate any known natural environment. If they find a subterranean cave on Tenerife that is naturally full of Xenon and cyclists start sleeping there, then artificial recreations of it would be acceptable.

here you go - combined with TUE for long-term anesthesia, just to be on the safe legal side

 

[Granville57]

I think it might be this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l98ENa9tLws

From 17:10 for 7 odd minutes. Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

That is, indeed, very interesting.

It further convinces me that the very concept of "clean sport" is an ever elusive and somewhat childish notion in this day and age. Athletes are more and more becoming lab rats.

It is also quite telling to note how unapologetic the Russians are in regards to all this. Nothing to hide; nothing to fear. No shame whatsoever. This is the new era. It is expected that one will use every means available to scientifically alter performance—and proudly so. This is not a new concept, of course, but to what end?

Slippery, slippery slope.

 

[TomasC]

Russia sees 'nothing wrong' in athletes inhaling xenon.

Surely it is covered by Prohibited Methods in the WADA list?

Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen, including, but not limited to, perfluorochemicals, efaproxiral (RSR13) and modified haemoglobin products (e.g. haemoglobin-based blood substitutes, microencapsulated haemoglobin products), excluding supplemental oxygen.

If this is not an artificial method of enhancing transport/delivery of oxygen, what is?

 

[lllludo]

A

Russia sees 'nothing wrong' in athletes inhaling xenon.

Surely it is covered by Prohibited Methods in the WADA list?
If this is not an artificial method of enhancing transport/delivery of oxygen, what is?

The problem is everybody inhale Xenon as there is Xenon in very small quantities in the atmosphere. WADA should at least determine a threshold concentration (not sure if this is the correct term). Otherwise lawyers of the russian athletes would have no problem voiding any eventual suspension in front of the CAS ... and I'm sure the head of the FMBA knows that too well.
I'm quite sure this kind of method is already used in cycling. By the way Xenon inhalators are used in the UK to save babies
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...as-gives-hope-babies-brain-damaged-birth.html

 

[TomasC]

I'm quite sure that if there's any potentially performance enhancing method, it is already used in cycling
Didn't know about the babies, thanks!

 

[manafana]

Its now easily got so its just like going into one of those altitude tents except more effective. Have the health affects being examined, going be hard to stop this surely lots of the cycling teams are using it too.

 

[Le breton]

..... hypoxic tent .. doesn't actually do a very good job of simulating altitude ...

You must be into some deep truth that we, mere mortals, are unaware of.

Would you be kind enough to let us in a little chunk of your insight?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

You must be into some deep truth that we, mere mortals, are unaware of.

Would you be kind enough to let us in a little chunk of your insight?

I've heard similar, but haven't dug deeper:
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2014/02/staying-in-altitude-tent-after-workouts.html?m=1

While we can debate whether or not simulated altitude is the same (and there's some recent research that it isn't quite the same), the question that popped to my mind is the following...

he doesnt go further, however.

 

[proffate]

You must be into some deep truth that we, mere mortals, are unaware of.

Would you be kind enough to let us in a little chunk of your insight?

I've never found a study that concludes the tents do anything but give you headaches. Have you? Here are two sources:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16602174 [2005] "Our findings are consistent with little or no effect of use of altitude tents on sea-level performance."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11310547 [2001] "Currently, no studies have been published on the efficacy of these devices on RBC production, maximal oxygen uptake and/or performance in elite athletes."

AFAIU the tents don't properly simulate altitude because they just reduce the oxygen content of the air rather than making the air "thinner". I think you would need a pressurized chamber (although I'm mainly theory-crafting here).

 

[Le breton]

I've never found a study that concludes the tents do anything but give you headaches. Have you? Here are two sources:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16602174 [2005] "Our findings are consistent with little or no effect of use of altitude tents on sea-level performance."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11310547 [2001] "Currently, no studies have been published on the efficacy of these devices on RBC production, maximal oxygen uptake and/or performance in elite athletes."

AFAIU the tents don't properly simulate altitude because they just reduce the oxygen content of the air rather than making the air "thinner". I think you would need a pressurized chamber (although I'm mainly theory-crafting here).

There have been numerous studies of that question.
Considering that the expected effect is so small, it's not surprising that results - particularly on performance - could go either way.
The easier part of the study would be RBC production and there I am pretty confident that a meta-analysis of all those experiments would give a SMALL positive result.

In a fragile structure as a tent, the only possibility is the reduction of the oxygen content in the inspired air but not everybody uses that method.

The East German for example had constructed underground a low pressure environment for the benefit of their athletes.

Still, obviously, a depressurized solid structure has a non-negligible cost (when compared to a low-oxygen tent)

As for the difference between simulated and actual low-pressure environments,
what are we talking about?
Splitting hairs I believe : I have a hard time imagining that your respiratory system could tell the difference between breathing, say, 8 grams of air per minute or 5 or 6 grams/ min when its maximum breathing capacity is maybe 200 grams per minute.

 

[Le breton]

I've heard similar, but haven't dug deeper:
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2014/02/staying-in-altitude-tent-after-workouts.html?m=1
he doesnt go further, however.

I had a quick look at the article, not enough to understand all the implications.

All I can say right now relates to my own experience : the few times when I cycled from La Paz (either 3200m or 3500m depending where exactly I lived) to our lab in Chacaltaya at 5220 m, I was so tired ( even exhausted one time) that it took hours before I could work efficiently after I got there: I so badly needed to rest and recover.
20 years later ( now we are more than 40 years later), while listening to some lectures on physiology, it dawned on me that I had the solution at hand but didn't realize it.
The solution was oxygen : we had bottles of it for visitors who occasionally would feel faint. If I had thought of using that O2 at full throttle for a while I would obviously have recovered much much faster!

Unfortunately that aspect (recovery after exercise) of the question is not considered in your reference.
One day it will dawn on them

 

[pastronef]

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/439041942660214785

funny Vaughters

 

[BullsFan22]

From what i've read and looked into what WADA says, it's not a 'banned' drug. What the pros and cons of it are, I have no idea, and I know WADA doesn't make a very good distinction of what it deems as a PED, but the Elena Vealbe and the Russian authorities in ethics in sport came out publicly and said, without any hesitation that they've used it for years and saw no problem, and that WADA agreed with this principle. Essentially both RUSADA and WADA say it's not a PED, somehow. I don't know, things are getting more and more confusing. I have no idea what is fair game what isn't. We are headed towards a path where the powers that be are gonna have to choose to A.) Ban every drug that they know, 110% is a performance enhancer and will penalize each individual or team or organization that takes drugs that they deem is a performance enhancer or B.) Let every single athlete (amateur, pro, etc) take whatever the heck they want, wherever and in what quantities and call it good.

 

[will10]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/xenon-gas-should-be-banned-says-garmin-sharp-doctor

Steffen, who was instrumental in the UCI’s adoption of the no needle policy within the peloton told Cyclingnews that, “We looked into Xenon, honestly, but we had several concerns about it and we ultimately decided not to use it. There’s really nothing good in terms of safety or athletic enhancement and then you throw in the ethical considerations. I personally feel that it crosses a line and that it’s unethical so we decided not to pursue it.”

 

[gooner]

The carbon monoxide comment is interesting. Mentions that he heard a team trying it.

I wonder are Sky pushing the boundaries in this area.

 

[Daniel Benson]

I should/will add that Steffen wouldn't name the team as it wasn't a first hand account.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Finally something I can contribute...

As a practicing anesthesiologist i can finally delurk. With respect to inhalation of gases, this is what my entire profession is based on ! It turns out that Xenon makes an outstanding inhaled general anesthetic. At the correct percentages (much higher than those apparently being used for the stimulation of EPO production) Xenon works exactly like the trademarked gases that we have been using for decades, with the added benefit of undergoing no metabolism in the body. Xenon is an inert "noble" gas like Argon and does not participate in chemical reactions. There is research being performed on the use in Xenon in general anesthesia but said research is hampered by the fact that it is quite expensive to use and must be scavenged and somehow recycled. For tedious technical reasons this gas may never be successfully marketed or being more widely researched at least in terms of being used as a general anesthetic.

It was rumored that Boris Yeltsin had a Xenon anesthetic whilst undergoing his heart surgery. The surgery was a success but did not limit his death from complications due to alcohol excess.

I am puzzled as to how anyone got the idea to use it as a PED. The mechanisms for its benefits appear to be poorly understood, yet if it does work (outside of a placebo effect) it might be ideal as being in the body for only a short period of time and then virtually undetectable. Teams with large budgets may be very interested in these properties........

I will follow this story with great interest.

 

[Catwhoorg]

UKAD put a brief comment on twitter so obviously the rumblings about this are reaching the testing authorities

"UKAD is not aware of Xenon use in the UK. However we encourage anyone with concerns to share them, via http://www.reportdoping.com @TheBAC"

 

[blackcat]

As a practicing anesthesiologist i can finally delurk. With respect to inhalation of gases, this is what my entire profession is based on ! It turns out that Xenon makes an outstanding inhaled general anesthetic. At the correct percentages (much higher than those apparently being used for the stimulation of EPO production) Xenon works exactly like the trademarked gases that we have been using for decades, with the added benefit of undergoing no metabolism in the body. Xenon is an inert "noble" gas like Argon and does not participate in chemical reactions. There is research being performed on the use in Xenon in general anesthesia but said research is hampered by the fact that it is quite expensive to use and must be scavenged and somehow recycled. For tedious technical reasons this gas may never be successfully marketed or being more widely researched at least in terms of being used as a general anesthetic.

It was rumored that Boris Yeltsin had a Xenon anesthetic whilst undergoing his heart surgery. The surgery was a success but did not limit his death from complications due to alcohol excess.

I am puzzled as to how anyone got the idea to use it as a PED. The mechanisms for its benefits appear to be poorly understood, yet if it does work (outside of a placebo effect) it might be ideal as being in the body for only a short period of time and then virtually undetectable. Teams with large budgets may be very interested in these properties........

I will follow this story with great interest.

I was of the understanding, albeit, a layperson understanding non-understanding, <think> LA celibacy or monogamy,

that, when you took perfluorocarbons, <think> Mauro Gianetti/Johan Museeuw
when you took perfluorocarbons, hypothetically o'course, never had any experience myself, that you, hypothetically, had to take in pure O2 from a O2 gas canister.

It sounds pretty far fetched, but doping and cycling message boards are nothing if they are not like apocryphal anecdotes.

 

[lllludo]

I am puzzled as to how anyone got the idea to use it as a PED. The mechanisms for its benefits appear to be poorly understood, yet if it does work (outside of a placebo effect) it might be ideal as being in the body for only a short period of time and then virtually undetectable. Teams with large budgets may be very interested in these properties........

I will follow this story with great interest.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...as-gives-hope-babies-brain-damaged-birth.html
I've found this article from 2012. It says the inhalation of Xenon improve the transport of oxygen to the cells.
In the UK they want to try it out on babies in London hospitals. I imagine if they do that they should be quite confident it's not too risky.
Do you think there could be any connection between UK hospitals and team SKY ?

 

[Race Radio]

The carbon monoxide comment is interesting. Mentions that he heard a team trying it.

I wonder are Sky pushing the boundaries in this area.

I have heard that rumor as well and Sky is usually the team attached to it. At the same time I, and others, have talked with several people in the team and all deny it.

As usual hard to track down the truth

 

[blackcat]

I have heard that rumor as well and Sky is usually the team attached to it. At the same time I, and others, have talked with several people in the team and all deny it.

As usual hard to track down the truth

but it is not like you would ever get an affirmative response. logical fallacy to assume it has any validity as a query/question in the traditional sense.

like pilger says on politicians, never believe something until it is officially denied.

ofcourse, this would be its own logical fallacy to assume the allegation/query=truth.

However, where it does have validity, is potentially, just giving those in charge of science experiments in doping, that there is one eye watching

 

[biokemguy]

2 things about xenon

Xenon is a noble gas, but that doesn't mean it can't change chemistry in the blood. Xenon binds hydrophobic cavities in proteins and has been used to study substrate binding in hemoglobin among other things.

Xenon is really expensive, at least too expensive for the experiments others in my lab want to do. Makes me think all this talk about it being used for doping is a sideshow. I'm sure there's more effective products for the price.

One wild speculation is that the price went up because it is a byproduct of oxygen purification and since the end of the space shuttle program the demand for pure oxygen has dropped significantly.

Okay, maybe that was three.