Your favourite riders!

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

Probably the best rider never to win the WC?

De Vlaeminck, Ocana, Poulidor, Bartoli, Godefroot, Kelly, Cancellara, Bartali .....

So many great riders who never wore the rainbow jersey

De Vlaeminck, Bartali, Kelly clearly better than Valverde. Others, debatable...

I disagree. I think if you were to drop a guy like Valverde/Sagan/Cancellara in those eras they would be able to get the same palmares, perhaps even better. I also think it's quite silly to see riders of the current era being compared to guys like Merckx as if that is a fair comparison. He wouldn't have been better than guys like Sagan or Valverde imo. It's just speculation of course.

It's not that Valverde is any kind of superhuman. He was beaten by several big rivals on a consistent basis. Just take Purito. He dropped Valverde multiple times in big races in 2012/2013. Just like Contador, Froome, Horner, Nibali have done in their careers.

The things what makes Valverde so unique are his allround capacities and his ability to be good in every race he enters for more then a decade. That's a unbelievable fact. But he has never been a Contador who just demolished the opposition in his prime.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Probably the best rider never to win the WC?

De Vlaeminck, Ocana, Poulidor, Bartoli, Godefroot, Kelly, Cancellara, Bartali .....

So many great riders who never wore the rainbow jersey

De Vlaeminck, Bartali, Kelly clearly better than Valverde. Others, debatable...

I only said great riders who have never won the rainbow jersey

But don't underestimate Poulidor. He also won a GT (Vuelta), classics (MSR, Fleche Wallone), stage races (2x Paris-Nice, 2x Dauphine, 5x Criterium International, which was a big race back then). And because the amount of podiums are important for a guy like Valverde (you said it multiple time yourself, the consistency also makes him one the best riders of his generation), you also shouldnt underestimate the fact Poulidor reached the podium of the Tour 8 (!) times.

But at the end, you can't really compare riders from totally different generations

I'm not underestimating anybody, I only said who's clearly better imo. Others maybe are, but maybe aren't. it's a matter of opinion...

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

My favourite riders. Unfortunately no Purito anymore

longish post...

Funny, I'd think a guy like - say - Arredondo would be pretty high on your list.

Ofcourse. But unfortunately he will never be the same old agressive Arredondo again because of all his knee problems

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

Probably the best rider never to win the WC?

De Vlaeminck, Ocana, Poulidor, Bartoli, Godefroot, Kelly, Cancellara, Bartali .....

So many great riders who never wore the rainbow jersey

De Vlaeminck, Bartali, Kelly clearly better than Valverde. Others, debatable...

I only said great riders who have never won the rainbow jersey

But don't underestimate Poulidor. He also won a GT (Vuelta), classics (MSR, Fleche Wallone), stage races (2x Paris-Nice, 2x Dauphine, 5x Criterium International, which was a big race back then). And because the amount of podiums are important for a guy like Valverde (you said it multiple time yourself, the consistency also makes him one the best riders of his generation), you also shouldnt underestimate the fact Poulidor reached the podium of the Tour 8 (!) times.

But at the end, you can't really compare riders from totally different generations

I'm not underestimating anybody, I only said who's clearly better imo. Others maybe are, but maybe aren't. it's a matter of opinion...

I personally think Ocana is one of the best riders ever. When he was on, he did things which even surpasses the achievement Contador did yesterday in PN.

But because of his mental state and bad luck during his career, he never quite got the palmares which puts him in the league of guys like Kelly, Indurain, Anquetil and so on.

 

[Mr.White]

All his results are crosses. It's not because the moderation does not entitle us to say why that the reality changes. There are facts. That rider should never enter into a discussion "who's the best" even on this section...

I wonder than how do you feel about results of Eddy Merckx? Are they crosses too? I saw in one of your posts above that you're speaking highly about his qualities and results, so that makes me little confused You can answer in appropriate thread if you want, I'll be glad to discuss...

 

[Mr.White]

To Arredondo:

I agree he was great, when he was "on", as you said. The problem is that he was not on for long enough. For example when Gilbert was on (2010-2011), he was untouchable, better than Bettini, better then Boonen, Cancellara, etc. But it was too short, all of them were/are better riders than him if you look their whole careers.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

My favourite riders. Unfortunately no Purito anymore

longish post...

Funny, I'd think a guy like - say - Arredondo would be pretty high on your list.

Ofcourse. But unfortunately he will never be the same old agressive Arredondo again because of all his knee problems

Doesn't mean you can't like him.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

If we're comparing modern riders to Merckx, I would personally go with the comparison Chris Boardman's trainer (I forget his name) made:

Boardman in 2000 went at the hour record with modern nutrition, modern training methods, the entire year's training geared towards that one day and perfect pacing. Merckx did it at the end of riding a whole year of track, then early season road racs, then classics, then grand tours, then worlds and more classics, tired and winding down, without any modern advances in training, and without any pacing because he wanted to beat the records for fastest 10km and 20km and ended up blowing up after half an hour and losing time.

Boardman beat Merckx by 0.01km

The riders of the present aren't naturally more talented. They have access to more developed science, that's the extent of it. Any freak today would be a freak back then and vice versa.

I agree, its overall a good post, but its funny how he doesn't even acknowledges Valverde as a rider and instead refers to Dan Martin re the point about Fléche Wallone.

Also, I don't know exactly how much Dumoulin weights, but if he has a FTP of 455 he will win the Giro without too much trouble. Thats 7 w/kg on a one hour climb for 65 kg (say, Stelvio from Prato - pretty insane VAM....) and 6,5 w/kg for 70 kg. The only ones who can reach that kind of wattage/FTP is absolute peak time trial Cancellara, say, 2009 (when Contador still beat him in a TT, lol) and maybe Tony Martin at his absolute best whenever that was. And Eddie, as far as I am concerned, weighed in at a fair amount under those two riders, at least Cancellara.

Would appreciate to be corrected on what they exactly weigh in at, Im not expert on that, but Dumoulin is listed at 69 on PCS so I thought it was natural to assume he would be around 66-67 kg now.

A tip. Don't trust any weight or height on PCS. Go to the teams' websites. On PCS you'll commonly find measures that are wrong by 20cm/20kg.

Boardman rode in Manchester. Merckx in Mexico-city

But Merckx rode in an open space.

Just say something like "I, for clinicey related reasons, chose to ignore him."
You can't say that he isn't a rider anymore when he clearly is. After all, pretty impressive for someone who isn't a rider to go into a 70k solo break.

There's no doubt that Valverde is great. No one can take that away, although on the other hand, I understand the "reservations". Aside from Sagan, he's the only rider who could win all the monuments...and he can win or podium every GC...et caetera...

By the way, what is he doing these days? I'm not used to Valverde-free weeks...what a slacker .

Sick. DNSed Paris-Nice.

 

[Echoes]

I wonder than how do you feel about results of Eddy Merckx? Are they crosses too? I saw in one of your posts above that you're speaking highly about his qualities and results, so that makes me little confused You can answer in appropriate thread if you want, I'll be glad to discuss...

I don't know where the appropriate thread. Of course I've often been opposed that case and never dared to reply because I know the rules but the two cases clearly cannot be comparable. Just like it is not for Duval. There's no nostalgia nor any kind of idolatry or fanboyism in me. I've often said here that I didn't like what Merckx has become since the nineties (in particular his ties with Qatar and also the way he defended the Worlds in Qatar) but he was clearly a champion and his career is valid.

With regards to Poulidor we shouldn't forget about the fact he climbed the Col d'Eze in ssomething like 20'04 (9.5km) in 1972 at age 36, on an old steel bike, with an old woolen jersey. That time would've placed him at the 7th place in the 2013 ITT of Paris-Nice on the same climb against riders who were much younger than him and with modern bikes... Of course Kelly did much better on an old bike as well ... but in prime.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

My favourite riders. Unfortunately no Purito anymore

longish post...

Funny, I'd think a guy like - say - Arredondo would be pretty high on your list.

Ofcourse. But unfortunately he will never be the same old agressive Arredondo again because of all his knee problems

Doesn't mean you can't like him.

I just forgot him really!

 

[RedheadDane]

You forgot the rider whose name is literally your online handle? :lol:

 

[Mr.White]

I wonder than how do you feel about results of Eddy Merckx? Are they crosses too? I saw in one of your posts above that you're speaking highly about his qualities and results, so that makes me little confused You can answer in appropriate thread if you want, I'll be glad to discuss...

I don't know where the appropriate thread. Of course I've often been opposed that case and never dared to reply because I know the rules but the two cases clearly cannot be comparable. Just like it is not for Duval. There's no nostalgia nor any kind of idolatry or fanboyism in me. I've often said here that I didn't like what Merckx has become since the nineties (in particular his ties with Qatar and also the way he defended the Worlds in Qatar) but he was clearly a champion and his career is valid.

With regards to Poulidor we shouldn't forget about the fact he climbed the Col d'Eze in ssomething like 20'04 (9.5km) in 1972 at age 36, on an old steel bike, with an old woolen jersey. That time would've placed him at the 7th place in the 2013 ITT of Paris-Nice on the same climb against riders who were much younger than him and with modern bikes... Of course Kelly did much better on an old bike as well ... but in prime.

I'll answer in Valverde Clinic Thread...

 

[jaylew]

10 is a tough number for me. Someone usually has to have been around for 3-4 years to make my list. There are some guys I really like but have only been pros for a couple years and it takes time for me to be a true fan of a rider. Often, that early excitement cools.

First 5 (not in order):

Van Avermaet - thrilled for him to win Olympic gold but I'll be so disappointed if he doesn't pick up a monument this year, I love his agressive nature. Lesser known fact: Finished top 12 in all of the top 7 one-day races on the calendar: MSR - 5th, RVV - 2nd, Roubaix - 3rd, Liége - 7th, Lombardia - 12th, Worlds - 5th, Olympics - 1st. No other rider is even close.
Valverde - really no explanation needed. I tend to favor versatile riders and he's been the best of that group for years. Always, always in the mix.
Van der Poel (Mathieu) - just incredible to watch on a bike. So smooth and talented. Fearless on a cross circuit
Chaves - hard not to like. Already was a fan but his Lombardia win took him to another level in my eyes. I really hope he gets a GT one day.
Contador - no explanation really needed here, either. Most attacking GT rider for many years, never gives up.

Next 2:

Uran - glad to see he's shifting his focus to one-day races. He's been so close at some biggies (Lombardia and Olympics) and I don't remember him ever focusing on the Ardennes. Liége should be good for him if he's fit.
Sanchez (Samuel) - fallen from my top tier but was one of my top 3 for years. Never got that monument or GT win but came soo close. Still, he'll always have that Olympic gold!

If this had been last year, my other 3 would likely have been Cancellara, Purito, and Horner. As it is, picking 3 more is tough as there is a large group of riders all relatively close and these could easily change from year to year but I'll go:

Greipel - my favorite current bunch sprinter (well, I like one of the new guys quite a bit but he hasn't been around long enough to make this list). I like his attitude and he's more often to be found doing hard work for other teammates than some other sprinters. I also like how he dedicates his early season to the classics even if it's to mostly work for others.

Ok, so I went over by one:

Terpstra - not sure why I started liking Niki. I just took a liking to him when he was back at Milram. He was one of the few guys who seemed to ever do anything on that team and was often the motor in breaks. I like his style on the bike as well. I know some say he's a jerk but then, I don't understand Dutch
Talansky - I guess I needed one American on this list, right? I'd have a few in the 10-20 range but I'm trying to play by the rules as much as I can. I've cooled on him a little in recent years but I still cheer for him. He hasn't been as aggressive lately but I love his tenacious spirit though it sometimes gets him in trouble.
Felline - good at just about everything but not one of the best at anything. Don't know how he'll ultimately fare in this era of extreme specialization but I hope he finds his niche. Moving into his peak years so I hope he figures it out and starts to get more wins and hopefully can bag a big one somewhere.


Some guys I thought I'd see on more lists:

Yates bros
Kristoff
Aru
GVA

 

[May0maniac]

Boardman rode indoors and Merckx outdoors. Indoors racing also enhances air penetration.

Tom Dumoulin weighs 71kg according to L'Équipe.

I haven't seen the Arrow in a long time, so I named names that crossed my mind but it's pretty logical that I'd ignore a rider that for reasons we may not talk about here is no longer a rider. It's not funny, it's being true to a principle.

Hmm, 71 kg seems a bit too much for him considering he seriously targets GT's now.

In the 2015 Vuelta he was around 68kg.

 

[GambadiLegno]

I don't have idols or favourite riders. In my case, I admire that guys whose work nobody see on tv or nobody pays attention as they see them back in the table.

I mean guys like Markel Irizar, Pablo Lastras, Manuel Quinziato, Imanol Eriviti, Matteo Trentin, etc..You have to be an extraordinary cyclist to be able to work as the do.

 

[Akuryo]

Re:

I don't have idols or favourite riders. In my case, I admire that guys whose work nobody see on tv or nobody pays attention as they see them back in the table.

I mean guys like Markel Irizar, Pablo Lastras, Manuel Quinziato, Imanol Eriviti, Matteo Trentin, etc..You have to be an extraordinary cyclist to be able to work as the do.

I agree with you (I also had Keisse in my top 10) but why is Trentin on that list? That guy is the current Ruban Jaune, won 3 GT-stages plus Paris-Tours. Hardly a guy who you "never see on tv".

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

I don't have idols or favourite riders. In my case, I admire that guys whose work nobody see on tv or nobody pays attention as they see them back in the table.

I mean guys like Markel Irizar, Pablo Lastras, Manuel Quinziato, Imanol Eriviti, Matteo Trentin, etc..You have to be an extraordinary cyclist to be able to work as the do.

All of them are great workhorses, but Quinziato isn't exactly a super nice guy off the bike.
He used to be a huge Armstrong fanboy. he talks a lot about spirituality and how becoming Buddhist really changed him and then you see him slapping around Bonifazio in the 2014 RVV, the youngest rider to enter the race, for causing a crash (I have to say that Bonifazio has a rep for being a bit of a smack talker, maybe he provoked him).
I forgot to mention strong workhorses like Kiryienka and Kangert who are willing to bury themself for their team captain and are nothing but class, when they get a chance to ride for themself I have too cheer for them.
I'm also a huge Spilak fan, when the weather is horrible and you have a hard mountain stage the guy is just world class. He gets a lot of respect on this form, but usually cycling media seem to ignore his existence.

 

[deValtos]

Spilak is a strange one. Probably the best GC rider who doesn't ride GT's atm. I guess he thinks his body can't recover well in them or he can't be bothered? Too much work? I have no idea.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re:

Spilak is a strange one. Probably the best GC rider who doesn't ride GT's atm. I guess he thinks his body can't recover well in them or he can't be bothered? Too much work? I have no idea.

It's precisely that he can't recover. He and team staff have both talked about that.
In the rain he's phenomenal but in the dry he's hardly ever there.

He focuses on stage races now, but he could do more if he focused differently . Back when he was a 21yo neo-pro he got 9th in RvV

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

I don't have idols or favourite riders. In my case, I admire that guys whose work nobody see on tv or nobody pays attention as they see them back in the table.

I mean guys like Markel Irizar, Pablo Lastras, Manuel Quinziato, Imanol Eriviti, Matteo Trentin, etc..You have to be an extraordinary cyclist to be able to work as the do.

I agree with you (I also had Keisse in my top 10) but why is Trentin on that list? That guy is the current Ruban Jaune, won 3 GT-stages plus Paris-Tours. Hardly a guy who you "never see on tv".

The current what-for-a-hat?
I know... it's not a hat, it's a jersey.

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

Spilak is a strange one. Probably the best GC rider who doesn't ride GT's atm. I guess he thinks his body can't recover well in them or he can't be bothered? Too much work? I have no idea.

It's precisely that he can't recover. He and team staff have both talked about that.
In the rain he's phenomenal but in the dry he's hardly ever there.

He focuses on stage races now, but he could do more if he focused differently . Back when he was a 21yo neo-pro he got 9th in RvV

He also got 48th in his very first GT before it went downhill from there. Considering he can recover for at least 7 days I'm surprised he doesn't just target individual stages and take it easy on most days at GT's. Seems feasible and lucrative. Also does he have a super power where he gains 100w in the rain? Surely its mostly psychological. Interesting rider none the less.

 

[May0maniac]

He doesn't suck when it's dry, there wasn't any rain on the key stages of the 2015 TdS, he's world class when you have horrible weather and sucks in the heat.
He's one of the few people that prefers descending with really low temperatures to climbing in the heat.

 

[GambadiLegno]

Re: Re:

I don't have idols or favourite riders. In my case, I admire that guys whose work nobody see on tv or nobody pays attention as they see them back in the table.

I mean guys like Markel Irizar, Pablo Lastras, Manuel Quinziato, Imanol Eriviti, Matteo Trentin, etc..You have to be an extraordinary cyclist to be able to work as the do.

I agree with you (I also had Keisse in my top 10) but why is Trentin on that list? That guy is the current Ruban Jaune, won 3 GT-stages plus Paris-Tours. Hardly a guy who you "never see on tv".

To be honest, I put Trentin comparing him with his Quick Step teammates, as Boonen, Terpstra, Stybar, Kittel or Alaphillippe are the ones everybody like from that team

 

[GambadiLegno]

Re: Re:

I don't have idols or favourite riders. In my case, I admire that guys whose work nobody see on tv or nobody pays attention as they see them back in the table.

I mean guys like Markel Irizar, Pablo Lastras, Manuel Quinziato, Imanol Eriviti, Matteo Trentin, etc..You have to be an extraordinary cyclist to be able to work as the do.

All of them are great workhorses, but Quinziato isn't exactly a super nice guy off the bike.
He used to be a huge Armstrong fanboy. he talks a lot about spirituality and how becoming Buddhist really changed him and then you see him slapping around Bonifazio in the 2014 RVV, the youngest rider to enter the race, for causing a crash (I have to say that Bonifazio has a rep for being a bit of a smack talker, maybe he provoked him).
I forgot to mention strong workhorses like Kiryienka and Kangert who are willing to bury themself for their team captain and are nothing but class, when they get a chance to ride for themself I have too cheer for them.
I'm also a huge Spilak fan, when the weather is horrible and you have a hard mountain stage the guy is just world class. He gets a lot of respect on this form, but usually cycling media seem to ignore his existence.

I didn't now that about Quinziato. Well, being a great rider doesn't mean being a good guy off the bike too. I don't know Quinziato personally, but I've met Contador or Cancellara as examples of top riders and they're not what we could say "nice guys", especially the second one. The other extreme is Valverde, who is probably a better person than cyclist, so you can imagine.