Your opinion - How many masters racers dope?

[spetsa]

You seem to be saying you started the thread to reinforce your own belief that few dope with using no observations (like the ones I posted) other than your own.

No doping problems then. Except for those pesky positives on USADA's site. Kevin denies it's more common, so it's not common. I tried to call you out on this behaviour on the last thread you wouldn't quit then either and proceeded to start this one. That's an awesome discussion. Kevin says the world operates according to his observations so we're done here.

Kevin has solved the doping problem people. We're done. Maybe you can solve hunger problems next. Human slavery is pretty old, that needs fixing Kevin style. Start another thread with your observations and the problem is solved.

+1
The irony of the whole thing is that I bet he ends up having at least 3 current or former teammates on Papp's list when all is said and done. My guess only, but I am very familiar with some of guys he has and does race with. I could be wrong. He is friends with Weasel, I am sure that gives some a more direct pipeline than China.

 

[nslckevin]

You seem to be saying you started the thread to reinforce your own belief that few dope with using no observations (like the ones I posted) other than your own.

Please stick to the words I write, not what you think I'm thinking. Thank you.

No doping problems then. Except for those pesky positives on USADA's site. Kevin denies it's more common, so it's not common. I tried to call you out on this behaviour on the last thread you wouldn't quit then either and proceeded to start this one. That's an awesome discussion. Kevin says the world operates according to his observations so we're done here.

Please point out where you think I declare that there is no problem. From my initial post of this thread. "Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think that it's a big problem at the local level in my district."

Last I checked "..don't think that it's a big problem.." does not mean NO problem. The fact that 17 riders were tested and all came back negative at our district criterium championship would seem to agree with my "not a big problem in my district" statement. I can't speak to your district or any other.

My opinion. Problem? yes. Big problem? No.

Please feel free to disagree.

Kevin

 

[nslckevin]

+1
The irony of the whole thing is that I bet he ends up having at least 3 current or former teammates on Papp's list when all is said and done. My guess only, but I am very familiar with some of guys he has and does race with. I could be wrong. He is friends with Weasel, I am sure that gives some a more direct pipeline than China.

Oh do tell! How many current, 2011 team mates are going to be on Papp's list?

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[spetsa]

Oh do tell! How many current, 2011 team mates are going to be on Papp's list?

Thanks,

Kevin

Are you confident that none of your ex-teammates will be. I bet some of mine will. Don't know for certain, but my head isn't in the sand.

 

[nslckevin]

Are you confident that none of your ex-teammates will be. I bet some of mine will. Don't know for certain, but my head isn't in the sand.

Frankly, I don't know my former team mates well enough to make a judgement one way or the other. They live in SoCal or Illinois or Tennessee. I would only see them once a year at Nationals (if that).

I asked though about my 2011 team mates as I do feel I know them well enough to judge them to be clean. You did not answer that question.

Kevin

 

[DirtyWorks]

Please stick to the words I write, not what you think I'm thinking. Thank you.



Please point out where you think I declare that there is no problem. From my initial post of this thread. "Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think that it's a big problem at the local level in my district."

Hey look at that, 75+ posts into this and nothing has changed. Nothing! Not even acknowledging how easy it is to return a negative. Not even a comment regarding my Track Nationals estimation. Your mind was made up from the beginning. It's a giant echo chamber for you.

Last I checked "..don't think that it's a big problem.." does not mean NO problem. The fact that 17 riders were tested and all came back negative at our district criterium championship would seem to agree with my "not a big problem in my district" statement. I can't speak to your district or any other.

My opinion. Problem? yes. Big problem? No.

Please feel free to disagree.

Kevin

So, we defer exclusively to your judgment on whether or not it's 'big' versus 'a' problem AND THEN the problem is non-existent because you don't see it in your district. And then it's just your opinion that somehow can't be left in an agree to disagree state in the previous thread. When others disagree by presenting simple facts that debunk your very narrow and unyielding position, you reply with more of the same.

Kevin has declared mission accomplished! We're done people! Feels good to conquer Master doping once and for all. High fives all around! Thanks Kevin.

 

[spetsa]

Frankly, I don't know my former team mates well enough to make a judgement one way or the other. They live in SoCal or Illinois or Tennessee. I would only see them once a year at Nationals (if that).

I asked though about my 2011 team mates as I do feel I know them well enough to judge them to be clean. You did not answer that question.

Kevin

Convenient that you "don't know your former team mates", but I bet you know Thom and Dylan really well. You are a joke. Give up and brag about your accomplishments to someone that cares. Let me guess, your two favorite pro cycling moments are Lance chasing down Semeoini and giving Jan the look. You probably practice them on training rides to the new guys that show up hoping to enjoy a good bike ride and walk away thinking that racers are *******s.

 

[Berzin]

I am also pretty sure that there are people that you are sure are doping that are clean.

You're so sure you know what I think, eh?

Please stick to the words I write, not what you think I'm thinking. Thank you.

Maybe you should read what you write every now and then. This is the most contradictory statement I've read on this forum.

 

[avanti]

It is more common then some might think.

But a good question for the 50+ guys is this: Is testosterone doping? because there are medical reasons to take it over 50 at least

Many masters racers are on prescription drugs. I used Prednisone (steroid) for a year - it is (or was) on the banned list but I could have got an exemption. However my doctor told me it increases ones blood suger level dramatically and I should refrain from strenous bike riding (which I did).

 

[Athame]

EW still in the Bay Area? I watched him lap the P/1/2 field TWICE at Cat's Hill, 2001 iirc.

 

[oldcrank]

I recall one year at the World Masters Track Cycling
a rider set a World Record and he had the option of
being tested if he wanted the record, but he would
have to pay for the test himself. He did not take the
test. That was in 2007 I think. So no out-of-comp
tests and no in-comp very recently. I believe the
next year the entry fees increased to cover some
testing of medalists and there was one positive.

 

[UncleChainwhip]

Let's not be naive, most racers (middle-class or higher SES) got a script MD by the time they are 40-50 yrs old. I still admire Alf Engers 40+ yrs old setting the UK record on spoke wheels 49' for 25miles, Cammish, Cromack, Harris, Howard, Crawford, Copeland etc.....all gleaming chrome rivets.

As Pearce & Alvis knew prior to their US Hour records, wasn't gonna be any testing......kicking *** clean is the best reward i ever had. Don't ever expect testing and you'll never be disappointed.

Remember it's just a game!

 

[hiero2]

I figure that everyone faster than me must be doping. That's a big percentage.

I like that. Me too.

You know, master's age usually have more bucks than juniors and even cat 1/2. So what would YOU spend those bucks on? IDK how I could possibly guess any %, as I'm not active in the club/racing scene at the mo. But, like I say, they got more money than most cyclists do.

 

[Mr. Cogswell]

Bringing this thread back for the need to vent. Long time reader...

I ride somewhere in the middle of the U.S.A. In my younger days I rode at a pretty elite level. Turns out some of the Pros' I raced against and had suspicions on turn up as sanctioned riders or considered dodgy by people in the know.

I have raced, I have coached, I understand exercise physiology. What I see from guys in my area, 40's and 50's... I don't believe.

I see guys 40+ new to endurance sport develop pretty big power numbers after only about 2 1/2 years. Almost all that I saw when I was younger would take 4 to 5 seasons to realize their potential.

I see the super huge egos... Trying to school people on group rides, Bully people in races and on blogs. (maybe its the internet that is to blame!).

I see these 40+/50+ guys riding 3 to 4 hard group rides per week, week in and week out, with very few if any bad days on the bike.

I, on the other hand, someone who has been an endurance athlete for 35 years... I've had to curtail my training in order to recover, be more specific in what I do, choose my goal races very carefully and try to peak for single days. Where I used to be at the front of group rides I now have pick and choose my spots.
Guys I ride with who season after season in the past came up short on power at some point in the season, usually late Spring (example: skinny teammate who can't push it into the wind) have now broken through and become much better all arounders- while I struggle just to maintain. From my discussions with many of these guys, they have very little idea of actually how to train.

I have started using power meter just so I can measure my numbers year to year as comparing my fitness to others leaves me dumbfounded. This is the worst part. Wondering how badly your own fitness might be deteriorating.

No one talks about it or plays dumb. In my area and within my group, I believe it to be a silent conspiracy. Everyone knows but stays silent.

I'm sick of the silence but can't think of any way to demand accountability.

 

[martinvickers]

Bringing this thread back for the need to vent. Long time reader...

I ride somewhere in the middle of the U.S.A. In my younger days I rode at a pretty elite level. Turns out some of the Pros' I raced against and had suspicions on turn up as sanctioned riders or considered dodgy by people in the know.

I have raced, I have coached, I understand exercise physiology. What I see from guys in my area, 40's and 50's... I don't believe.

I see guys 40+ new to endurance sport develop pretty big power numbers after only about 2 1/2 years. Almost all that I saw when I was younger would take 4 to 5 seasons to realize their potential.

I see the super huge egos... Trying to school people on group rides, Bully people in races and on blogs. (maybe its the internet that is to blame!).

I see these 40+/50+ guys riding 3 to 4 hard group rides per week, week in and week out, with very few if any bad days on the bike.

I, on the other hand, someone who has been an endurance athlete for 35 years... I've had to curtail my training in order to recover, be more specific in what I do, choose my goal races very carefully and try to peak for single days. Where I used to be at the front of group rides I now have pick and choose my spots.
Guys I ride with who season after season in the past came up short on power at some point in the season, usually late Spring (example: skinny teammate who can't push it into the wind) have now broken through and become much better all arounders- while I struggle just to maintain. From my discussions with many of these guys, they have very little idea of actually how to train.

I have started using power meter just so I can measure my numbers year to year as comparing my fitness to others leaves me dumbfounded. This is the worst part. Wondering how badly your own fitness might be deteriorating.

No one talks about it or plays dumb. In my area and within my group, I believe it to be a silent conspiracy. Everyone knows but stays silent.

I'm sick of the silence but can't think of any way to demand accountability.

Can I ask you a possibly stupid question. How much do drug tests cost, individually?

 

[Mr. Cogswell]

Are you asking if I could pay to test teammates and guys/gals (yes, very dodgy gal!) in my area? LOL!

I would do it for the peace of mind believe me!!!

If you are asking about USADA testing, I believe the estimates are around $750 each... And I believe that would be for the basic Testosterone ratio test, not the test to detect exogeneous...

 

[martinvickers]

Are you asking if I could pay to test teammates and guys/gals (yes, very dodgy gal!) in my area? LOL!

I would do it for the peace of mind believe me!!!

If you are asking about USADA testing, I believe the estimates are around $750 each... And I believe that would be for the basic Testosterone ratio test, not the test to detect exogeneous...

hmm..too much. I was just wondering about ways of funding drug testing for explicitly 'clean' races. Probably too much, but you like to think it through.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I see these 40+/50+ guys riding 3 to 4 hard group rides per week, week in and week out, with very few if any bad days on the bike.

Testosterone is great for this. Lots of recovery doping going on with even over the counter PEDs that sometimes work.
One incredibly risky and not-advised way to address this is collect detailed facts about how it's done and take it to a regional media property and USADA and USAC at the same time. Name and shame. You'll be personally attacked for that, so don't just go and do without thinking through real ramifications.

That's not going to clean up USAC though.

 

[proffate]

Are you asking if I could pay to test teammates and guys/gals (yes, very dodgy gal!) in my area? LOL!

I would do it for the peace of mind believe me!!!

If you are asking about USADA testing, I believe the estimates are around $750 each... And I believe that would be for the basic Testosterone ratio test, not the test to detect exogeneous...

I thought they'd moved on to better urine tests than T/E ratio, like this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20355166

 

[ralphbert]

Re: my take on masters dopers.
Cycling and endurance sports in general tend to attract "type a" personality types, a good proportion of this personality tend to have a phd in d0uchebaggery. So yes they do what is required to win.

At the end of the day just enjoy riding your bike, if someone is faster than you because they dope then the joke is on them, nothing is lamer and the boomerang effect of hormone manipulation will hit them in the rear sooner or later. My family and friends could really care less if I win the races I enter or not, they are just happy if I come home with all my skin and a smile.

 

[happychappy]

The top guys have been the top guys for a long time and I would bet that nobody would be taking something for 25 years.

Well that's complete nonsense.

 

[Mr. Cogswell]

Yes, 4:1... above that, use CIR (GC/C/IRMS) analysis to confirm exogenous.

Yes Ralpbert, I suppose the joke is on them in the long run. It's always about the journey for me, always has been, and I'll never turn down riding with the wife for a group ride but I'm driven to expose the hypocrisy and arrogance!

 

[D-Queued]

Bringing this thread back for the need to vent. Long time reader...

...

I'm sick of the silence but can't think of any way to demand accountability.

Can I ask you a possibly stupid question. How much do drug tests cost, individually?

Mr. Cogswell,

I agree with you POV. There are unquestionably lots of doped up Masters. Some of them may not even have very good, or stand-out performances.

Now that you are training with a power meter, you are going to realize two things. First, some numbers and achievements are impossible.

Second, not everyone is the same.

This second point is interesting.

Some performances actually can be explained and are normal.

As far as 3 hard workouts per week goes, the folks I know that can ride the hardest, longest, and do it most frequently are actually in their 40s, 50s and 60s.

Some of them don't even bother racing. I would even vouch for some of them, and my attitude on 'everyone' doping is well documented.

If they act like they are having a roid rage, though, my guess is they probably are.

Hi Martin,

As for how much does testing cost, there was a very interesting proposal in Ontario recently. A group of concerned riders suggested that Licensing fees be increased by $1-5/year to cover testing.

Really good idea. I don't know if it was adopted, though.

Dave.

 

[Berzin]

As far as 3 hard workouts per week goes, the folks I know that can ride the hardest, longest, and do it most frequently are actually in their 40s, 50s and 60s.

We should not allow ourselves to believe such physiological oddities, or to buy into how they occur.

The same string of mumbo jumbo comes streaming out of people's mouths when one asks such questions.

1) "Master's racers have more disposable income to purchase better equipment, better nutrition, better coaches, and just plain work harder".

This may be true except for the "hard work" part. The reality is closer to this-

2) They can also purchase better endocrine systems to augment what everyone else on the planet slowly loses over time.

None of what I mentioned in point #2 is enough to counter point #1. You cannot engage in enough of #1 to offset #2. People have had their heads in the sand about what goes on in Master's racing ever since it became an arms race, literally and figuratively.

When I see aging yuppies with diesel "pythons" (that would be very developed biceps for those unfamiliar with the parlance) lining up at local races or giving it to everybody on the local hammerfests I just have to laugh. Some don't even race. They dope because they're looking to turn back the hands of time.

These guys buy into the crap sold to them by the witch doctors who run anti-aging clinics that aging is a "disease", and that the products they peddle are safe under the supervision of a doctor. If they were actual endocrinologists and not quacks looking to make a quick and easy score by duping their clientele it may have a modicum of veracity, but it doesn't in far too many cases.

 

[martinvickers]

Mr. Cogswell,

I agree with you POV. There are unquestionably lots of doped up Masters. Some of them may not even have very good, or stand-out performances.

Now that you are training with a power meter, you are going to realize two things. First, some numbers and achievements are impossible.

Second, not everyone is the same.

This second point is interesting.

Some performances actually can be explained and are normal.

As far as 3 hard workouts per week goes, the folks I know that can ride the hardest, longest, and do it most frequently are actually in their 40s, 50s and 60s.

Some of them don't even bother racing. I would even vouch for some of them, and my attitude on 'everyone' doping is well documented.

If they act like they are having a roid rage, though, my guess is they probably are.

Hi Martin,

As for how much does testing cost, there was a very interesting proposal in Ontario recently. A group of concerned riders suggested that Licensing fees be increased by $1-5/year to cover testing.

Really good idea. I don't know if it was adopted, though.

Dave.

Dave

That's exactly along the lines I was thinking. Could 'clean' masters riders be convinced to 'chip in' for a thorough and comprehensive testing system, and then somehow sell that form of racing on its relative fairness. Big issues are money and actual test effectiveness, but I thought it might be worth a pilot or something.