Zirbel

[peloton]

He denies "knowingly" ingesting a steroid. So the excuse is he unknowingly ingested it? Pro cyclists know what is and isn't on the banned list. They have to. Plus he claims he's "ignorant" about DHEA. Uh, it's the same steroid compatriot Hamilton was busted for. Again, not believable. Zirbel says he just doesn't know anything about DHEA yet the guy also admits to a background in chemistry. Come on,man....
Twisted Spoke
http://walshworld.wordpress.com/

+1

This is an educated guy, never heard of DHEA??? lol.

 

[avanti]

............So what's the deal? From what little I've read, no one seems to think it is truly performance enhancing.

There was an article in the AAAS Science Journal just before the Bejing Olympics about listed drugs - apparantly many do not enhance performance and some even degrade performance. For many of the listed drugs no testing has been performed - they are listed because someone thought they were performance enhancing.

 

[Cozy Beehive]

Dhea

So what's the deal? From what little I've read, no one seems to think it is truly performance enhancing.

DHEA is a precursor to testosterone formation. The effects of testosterone are well understood but not DHEA. On average, both hormones exist very little in the human body and trying to understand what effects they have on the human body is like trying to understand how a tiny drop in an ocean affects the ocean.

Interestingly, there was a study done in Okinawa, Japan to try and understand why so many Okinawans live to the age of 100 and beyond. They found from solid evidence that part of the answer why they had such longevity and vitality was that their bodies contained more DHEA, among other hormones. You should read about the Okinawa Centenarian Study. Here's a documentary : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7023342817132205922&hl=en#

 

[Aguirre]

ha! not only spanish and italians are caught with doping

 

[Anonymous]

The more guys that get caught doping and the more lame excuses that get offered up makes David Millar's decision to stand up and say "yes, I took EPO" look more and more unique.

 

[Beech Mtn]

This really disappoints me. Since the 08 US TT Championships, I've wanted to see him against better competition in Europe and abroad. I want to believe him, but the "integrity" excuse and talk about "unknowingly ingesting the substance" has been used before.

+1 to the bold part. I was looking forward to seeing what he could do in Europe this year too.

Some of his Bissell teammates seem to be supporting him on Twitter. It sounds like he was highly thought of.

 

[L29205]

I didn't realize how prevalent DHEA is in the market place. When you can go to the drug store and pick up something off the shelf that is on the banned list is kind of scary.

But as a pro cyclist it is still your responsibility to understand what is banned and what you are putting in your body. I would hope most of us would make the effort to understand what is in the supplements we are taking.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

I'm confused about something here. Some articles say he tested positive for endogenous DHEA, while others specify exogenous. DHEA is produced in your adrenal glands, and a low calorie diet with a lot of exercise can increase DHEA levels. It's even found in your urine. Wouldn't it then be plausible for a cyclist on a calorie restricted diet to test positive for elevated endogenous DHEA? If it were exogenous, then he is guilty. Which one is it? Could somebody with more knowledge explain this?

 

[fatandfast]

The more guys that get caught doping and the more lame excuses that get offered up makes David Millar's decision to stand up and say "yes, I took EPO" look more and more unique.

He did no such thing. Caught first and then a blubbering confession. WE are all waiting for the day when a Tour winner shows up and says" I want to return my prize money and pro license because I cheated,sorry".

 

[Cozy Beehive]

Endogenous vs Exogenous

I'm confused about something here. Some articles say he tested positive for endogenous DHEA, while others specify exogenous. DHEA is produced in your adrenal glands, and a low calorie diet with a lot of exercise can increase DHEA levels. It's even found in your urine. Wouldn't it then be plausible for a cyclist on a calorie restricted diet to test positive for elevated endogenous DHEA? If it were exogenous, then he is guilty. Which one is it? Could somebody with more knowledge explain this?

ImmaculateKadence,

I take it that the implication from Zirbel's positive result is that DHEA was externally administered, through cremes or ingestion and so on. Which is why I wrote "exogenous", or coming from an agent outside the body. http://bit.ly/91EkxN
What USADA's criteria is for establishing the cutoff for internal vs external is not known to me but I believe they base it off the fact that men, especially at 30 years and beyond, have only so much DHEA within their bodies (which declines with age) and the fact that it also converts to secondary hormones through known pathways.

The Cycling News article on Zirbel's announcement wrote he tested positive for an "endogenous steroid" which, although may confuse the reader, just seeks to say that DHEA is normally produced in the human body and that Zirbel was found to have an anomalous amount of it in a lab analysis. The lab could also be wrong...

 

[Race Radio]

He did no such thing. Caught first and then a blubbering confession. WE are all waiting for the day when a Tour winner shows up and says" I want to return my prize money and pro license because I cheated,sorry".

Not the Tour but Jerome Chiotti gave up his World Champion's jersey.

 

[Anonymous]

He did no such thing. Caught first and then a blubbering confession. WE are all waiting for the day when a Tour winner shows up and says" I want to return my prize money and pro license because I cheated,sorry".

Yes, Millar was caught first, but he copped to doing EPO as opposed to Flandis, Vino and countless others including Hamilton (who put forward the 'vanishing twin' defense perhaps redefining the word 'lame').

Millar doped was caught and had enough balls to own up to it. Surely you can see the difference.

 

[BroDeal]

Yes, Millar was caught first, but he copped to doing EPO as opposed to Flandis, Vino and countless others including Hamilton (who put forward the 'vanishing twin' defense perhaps redefining the word 'lame').

Millar doped was caught and had enough balls to own up to it. Surely you can see the difference.

Not really. Millar only confessed when he was taken in by the police and empy vials of EPO were found in his residence. Before that he denied everything and publicly called Philippe Gaumont a liar.

 

[Anonymous]

Not really. Millar only confessed when he was taken in by the police and empy vials of EPO were found in his residence. Before that he denied everything and publicly called Philippe Gaumont a liar.

So in your eyes Millar get how much credit for admitting using EPO? Contrast to Virenque and the Festina scandal. Bernie Kohl was a jerk but at least spilled the beans. No long drawn out court case. No pointing the finger at LNDD claiming shoddy workmanship. No ridiculous denials.

Basso said he only intended to dope, but never actually doped, yet crushed everyone at the Giro whatever year he won. Would you have preferred he admitted his obvious doping once caught up in OP, or pattern another lame excuse?

All I'm saying is it's rare for the caught doper to admit being guilty rather than offer the "I never knowingly took DHEA, I have more integrity than that and everyone knows it" defense. Of the busted dopers, I wish more were like Millar and less like Flandis.

 

[HelmutRoole]

I had heard during the Mark McGuire days that DHEA would show up prominently on a test, masking Testosterone usage. Since Andro and DHEA were legal at the time; that was McGuire's party line. It only takes one glance at his two-year size progression to know he'd have to take a truckload of an over-the counter supplement to get that big. I have not heard a bio-chemist's exact response on the matter but would have to think WADA, etc know that it can affect testing for other recovery aids that were beneficial and illegal. Any expert information? You guys have been pretty good at explaining alot of PED effects.

+1... This is the real question. I suspect DHEA is being used to mask the use of other PEDs. True, both are two year bans, but you got to figure people are more likely to foregive DHEA than testosterone, sterioids and/or EPO/CERA.

Also, you never see an athlete testing positive for more than one drug. Are the tests engineered that?

 

[HelmutRoole]

So in your eyes Millar get how much credit for admitting using EPO?

Nope. The cuffs were on when Millar offered up his confession. What he's doing now is a sideshow to make himself appear clean. He ain't clean. No one getting results on a Pro Tour team is clean.

 

[blackcat]

Nope. The cuffs were on when Millar offered up his confession. What he's doing now is a sideshow to make himself appear clean. He ain't clean. No one getting results on a Pro Tour team is clean.

word

Helmut deins us with his presence

 

[Anonymous]

Nope. The cuffs were on when Millar offered up his confession. What he's doing now is a sideshow to make himself appear clean. He ain't clean. No one getting results on a Pro Tour team is clean.

I guess you are right. That Malibu courtcase condemning Flandis was waaay better than if he had just fessed up. The one where Hamilton claimed a Chimera twin was soooo much better than if he'd of just said, "you got me."

Contrast Kohl to Schumacher.

 

[BroDeal]

+1... This is the real question. I suspect DHEA is being used to mask the use of other PEDs. True, both are two year bans, but you got to figure people are more likely to foregive DHEA than testosterone, sterioids and/or EPO/CERA.

I don't see how it can be used to mask other PEDs. DHEA is the most common hormone in the body. They must have to test specifically for artificial DHEA.

I tend to think that DHEA is low grade doping used by people who hope it converts to testosterone. A bottle of the stuff can be bought for less than $10 at Walmart. Perhaps the USADA only begain testing for DHEA this year, and before that it was a relatively safe drug to use. That would make Hamilton an unlucky bastard who was undone by two new testing procedures.

Also, you never see an athlete testing positive for more than one drug. Are the tests engineered that?

There is a good question. You would think that an athlete would occasionally get tested when he was in the middle of a training cycle and test positive for a handful of different PEDs. Perhaps for cost purposes when there are secondary tests done after an initial screen, the secondary tests are done one after another until one comes up negative.

 

[Oldman]

+1... This is the real question. I suspect DHEA is being used to mask the use of other PEDs. True, both are two year bans, but you got to figure people are more likely to foregive DHEA than testosterone, sterioids and/or EPO/CERA.

Also, you never see an athlete testing positive for more than one drug. Are the tests engineered that?

That's my continued question, as well. DHEA offers a defense, lame as we've seen; that something "might have been in a supplement". Particularly useful if the DHEA and whatever it's hiding in tests have the same detectability. Zirbel was operating in an arena of lower scrutinyand am curious at how many Euro DHEA positives vs. the sudden, visible US busts. Is there anything, even dated information on the pro-doping forums indicating masking use?

 

[karlboss]

i hate the someone else is to blame defence, sometimes supplements really are tainted. See rebekah keat aussie triathlete. if you took something and DHEA is listed in the ingredients, you're an idiot, but from cross contamination or whatever...

Second if you can't win anything of note clean or on a serious blood boosting program how does one get close in a world championships tt?

All jokes aside about close and not actually winning. Or was cancellara the only one taking anything in the tt?

*can't find that keat vs hammer has been decided

 

[Ripper]

i hate the someone else is to blame defence, sometimes supplements really are tainted. See rebekah keat aussie triathlete. if you took something and DHEA is listed in the ingredients, you're an idiot, but from cross contamination or whatever...

Second if you can't win anything of note clean or on a serious blood boosting program how does one get close in a world championships tt?

All jokes aside about close and not actually winning. Or was cancellara the only one taking anything in the tt?

*can't find that keat vs hammer has been decided

I posted this earlier ...

Yes, it was Moninger! Here is an old link from CN about tainted supplements.

My point was, while this defence is not enough by itself, if you can prove supplements were tainted (i.e. something in it that is not on the lable), well then you do have a case, especially with certain products such as DHEA.

 

[Oldman]

I posted this earlier ... My point was, while this defence is not enough by itself, if you can prove supplements were tainted (i.e. something in it that is not on the lable), well then you do have a case, especially with certain products such as DHEA.

So a really well planned program could include maintaining a supplement stash that has some contamination (sounds really diabolical), take DHEA while taking testosterone. The hope is you get tested for nothing but if caught on a random test you might make the feeble defense that your supplements are the source. That would never explain why someone would risk a test at National Champs or otherwise.

 

[karlboss]

I posted this earlier ... My point was, while this defence is not enough by itself, if you can prove supplements were tainted (i.e. something in it that is not on the lable), well then you do have a case, especially with certain products such as DHEA.

Indeed you did, but some posters were trying to call zirbel an idiot for not knowing what was in his supplement. If it was tainted he has a case. If he misread the label...idiot.

 

[Ripper]

So a really well planned program could include maintaining a supplement stash that has some contamination (sounds really diabolical), take DHEA while taking testosterone. The hope is you get tested for nothing but if caught on a random test you might make the feeble defense that your supplements are the source. That would never explain why someone would risk a test at National Champs or otherwise.

Wow, that would be pretty diabolical. And you would still get banned, just possibly not as long. Kindaaaaaa risky!