Zirbel

[Ripper]

Indeed you did, but some posters were trying to call zirbel an idiot for not knowing what was in his supplement. If it was tainted he has a case. If he misread the label...idiot.

Agree x 2!

Annnnd ... this is why some supplements make such a big deal about NOT being contaminated. So if you're a pro in 2009 or 2010, it pays to be careful.

 

[HelmutRoole]

I guess you are right. That Malibu courtcase condemning Flandis was waaay better than if he had just fessed up. The one where Hamilton claimed a Chimera twin was soooo much better than if he'd of just said, "you got me."

You're talking about degrees. They're both trying to do the same thing. Landis was just trying to hit it out of the ball park. He went down swinging and he's hated for it, as he should be. Millar went for a base hit and got it. Some people are buying into it. I'm not. Pro Tour results = dope.

TZ's 4th at worlds = dope.

 

[HelmutRoole]

So a really well planned program could include maintaining a supplement stash that has some contamination (sounds really diabolical), take DHEA while taking testosterone. The hope is you get tested for nothing but if caught on a random test you might make the feeble defense that your supplements are the source. That would never explain why someone would risk a test at National Champs or otherwise.

Yep... +1 again; if you test your sups and find a contaminated batch you keep it and keep the sealed containers. Didn't it sound strange to anyone that Moniger had several containers of un-opened sups? Don't you purchase that stuff with the intention of using it?

HealthNet... don't think most regarded it as a clean outfit.

 

[Ripper]

Didn't it sound strange to anyone that Moniger had several containers of un-opened sups? Don't you purchase that stuff with the intention of using it?

Well to be fair, this is not such a big deal. I and a lot of the racers I know tend to buy things in batches, or as part of a special. Not saying anyone is innocent here, I just would not assume too much if there are some extra containers.

Now, if you were purchasing GNC Mega Men with DHEA, well then

 

[BroDeal]

He denies "knowingly" ingesting a steroid. So the excuse is he unknowingly ingested it? Pro cyclists know what is and isn't on the banned list. They have to. Plus he claims he's "ignorant" about DHEA. Uh, it's the same steroid compatriot Hamilton was busted for. Again, not believable. Zirbel says he just doesn't know anything about DHEA yet the guy also admits to a background in chemistry. Come on,man....

If you had read the link that Ripper posted, you would have seen that 18.8% of 245 supplements from the U.S. contained substances not on the label that would cause a positive test.

The guy could have a Ph.D in chemistry and not know anything about DHEA. Medical doctors cannot agree on what DHEA supplementation does.

 

[Epicycle]

So a really well planned program could include maintaining a supplement stash that has some contamination (sounds really diabolical), take DHEA while taking testosterone. The hope is you get tested for nothing but if caught on a random test you might make the feeble defense that your supplements are the source. That would never explain why someone would risk a test at National Champs or otherwise.

Or you find a sketchy supplement after you test positive and say it's what you took. Thats what Aitor Gonzalez tried in vain. He said he took a supplement called Animal Pak which features pictures like this on it's website...

 

[Ripper]

Or you find a sketchy supplement after you test positive and say it's what you took. Thats what Aitor Gonzalez tried in vain. He said he took a supplement called Animal Pak which features pictures like this on it's website...

Only I think Aitor Gator popped for a lot more than trace amounts.

Also - you have also seen the ads for Animal Pak ... not exactly subtle or not on the label (so not an excuse). Poor Aitor Gator ...

 

[frenchfry]

Not really. Millar only confessed when he was taken in by the police and empy vials of EPO were found in his residence. Before that he denied everything and publicly called Philippe Gaumont a liar.

He may have called Gaumont a liar, but more importantly he called him a "nutter". Pretty classy stuff (even if Gaumont does have a reputation for being a bit philosophical).

Although I tend to see Millar in a more favorable light than Landis, Hamilton, Schumacher, Rebellin, Di Luca etc. he didn't exactly confess of his own free will. His story was that he kept the empty EPO vials on the mantle to remind himself of how bad it was to dope - fact or fiction?

 

[craig1985]

You're talking about degrees. They're both trying to do the same thing. Landis was just trying to hit it out of the ball park. He went down swinging and he's hated for it, as he should be. Millar went for a base hit and got it. Some people are buying into it. I'm not. Pro Tour results = dope.

TZ's 4th at worlds = dope.

I'm just interested in why you think that if you win, you clearly are on drugs. Otherwise there is a reason why pushing an opinion across as fact is not good thing. FTR I think there are some guys who do win and are clean. Jeremy Roy won a stage at Paris-Nice, and I don't think he dopes or is a doper because he has one win in his whole career.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

ImmaculateKadence,

I take it that the implication from Zirbel's positive result is that DHEA was externally administered, through cremes or ingestion and so on. Which is why I wrote "exogenous", or coming from an agent outside the body. http://bit.ly/91EkxN
What USADA's criteria is for establishing the cutoff for internal vs external is not known to me but I believe they base it off the fact that men, especially at 30 years and beyond, have only so much DHEA within their bodies (which declines with age) and the fact that it also converts to secondary hormones through known pathways.

The Cycling News article on Zirbel's announcement wrote he tested positive for an "endogenous steroid" which, although may confuse the reader, just seeks to say that DHEA is normally produced in the human body and that Zirbel was found to have an anomalous amount of it in a lab analysis. The lab could also be wrong...

Thanks for the explanation. Elevated levels of any hormone would raise eyebrows, but if the elevated levels could be explained naturally, then it's possible the test is a false positive. If they tested specifically for artificial or synthetic DHEA, then he most likely doped. I just want some consistency in these articles. Or maybe I just want to believe he didn't dope because he's a rider I've followed for the past couple years and expected big things from.

 

[karlboss]

You're talking about degrees. They're both trying to do the same thing. Landis was just trying to hit it out of the ball park. He went down swinging and he's hated for it, as he should be. Millar went for a base hit and got it. Some people are buying into it. I'm not. Pro Tour results = dope.

TZ's 4th at worlds = dope.

Blood boosting? Its obvious he was doping, returned the test to prove it.

 

[craig1985]

Greg Henderson's take on it:

Whats everyones views on this muppet Zirbel. Chemistry background? WTF. what are they thinking.

via twitter.

 

[Martinello]

Dirty supplements isn't a new issue so I wonder why anybody subject to intensive testing (read: pro cyclists) would even bother with second grade supplements?
Maybe some folks actually believe in the promises put forward in the adds (works like testosterone, boosts hct with all natural herbs, increases the size of your manhood).

Well, at least Zirbel didn't try the toothpaste or coke-chick defense

 

[HelmutRoole]

I'm just interested in why you think that if you win, you clearly are on drugs. Otherwise there is a reason why pushing an opinion across as fact is not good thing. FTR I think there are some guys who do win and are clean. Jeremy Roy won a stage at Paris-Nice, and I don't think he dopes or is a doper because he has one win in his whole career.

Look, these guys all go through the same gates to reach the Pro Tour. The difference in talent is minuscule. Fractions of a percent. I myself tried to make it as a pro and I wound up in South America.

Now, I understand if you want to believe there's one or two amazingly talented guys in the Pro Tour peloton who are clean and win races. But if you want to deal in reality, try out this little experiment.

Go online and buy some testosterone, the basic building block of a doping program. Run it for 10 weeks. Continue to train with your buddies and after eight weeks you'll be dropping them off like garbage at the curb. Two or three such cycles in a season you'll be racing at the next category or better and they won't.

That's just testosterone. We're not talking about all the other stuff like insulin, IGF-1, EQ, cow's blood (tribute to CF's flyer), EPO, blood transfusions, stimulants... I'm sure I'm missing more than a few.

Take a look back at your buddies. They're clean. All you did was run a cycle of testosterone.

Imagine close to 200 fully doped, hard charging professional riders. Imagine what they'd do to a clean rider.

Chew him up and spit him out.

It is what it is.

 

[Oldman]

Greg Henderson's take on it:

Whats everyones views on this muppet Zirbel. Chemistry background? WTF. what are they thinking.

via twitter.

Talked to an informed buddy who suggested that DHEA is taken some time after a steriod/testosterone cycle to reactivate the natural DHEA production, which goes down to zero during the cycle. It clears the system fairly quick but you'd time the usage. That's if you are involved in a program and some folks want to give Zirbel the benefit of doubt. They won't test for anything else with his samples, however.

 

[craig1985]

Look, these guys all go through the same gates to reach the Pro Tour. The difference in talent is minuscule. Fractions of a percent. I myself tried to make it as a pro and I wound up in South America.

Now, I understand if you want to believe there's one or two amazingly talented guys in the Pro Tour peloton who are clean and win races. But if you want to deal in reality, try out this little experiment.

Go online and buy some testosterone, the basic building block of a doping program. Run it for 10 weeks. Continue to train with your buddies and after eight weeks you'll be dropping them off like garbage at the curb. Two or three such cycles in a season you'll be racing at the next category or better and they won't.

That's just testosterone. We're not talking about all the other stuff like insulin, IGF-1, EQ, cow's blood (tribute to CF's flyer), EPO, blood transfusions, stimulants... I'm sure I'm missing more than a few.

Take a look back at your buddies. They're clean. All you did was run a cycle of testosterone.

Imagine close to 200 fully doped, hard charging professional riders. Imagine what they'd do to a clean rider.

Chew him up and spit him out.

It is what it is.

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of your background. Actually my best friend who is not into cycling, but knows the level I'm at, has suggested that I dope so it will give me the best chance of making it and earning a lot of money then I usually would with a regular job, and it would set me up for life. That and he said they are all doing it.

 

[dolophonic]

If you are really good your winnings might cover your doping bill!

 

[blackcat]

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of your background. Actually my best friend who is not into cycling, but knows the level I'm at, has suggested that I dope so it will give me the best chance of making it and earning a lot of money then I usually would with a regular job, and it would set me up for life. That and he said they are all doing it.

craig, they are not ALL doing it. But the guys who win PT races, I cant for the life of me see a winner. Moncoutie? I dont believe in Gilbert anymore, you can't string together a performance like that, clean, against the PT guys.

One of the ex-USPS riders told me Levi Leipheimer is a donkey into thoroughbred. I reckon you can change donkeys into a thoroughbred with the right plan. All the pros in the PT peloton have class. But, winning class, thoroughbred class, versus pack fodder, dope can do different things, to different people, and if they are willing to push the envelope. I don't think there are super responders, just good responders, on the best doping plans, with stuff that other riders can't, don't, or won't access. That is StrongArm.

Race Radio said Udo Bolts is on record that at pre-season camps around 95 at Telekom, Ullrich was getting dropped on the climbs before he got on EPO. No doubt Ullrich was talented on the flat, but could not climb a lick. And we all know, that the pre-season camps, are smash fests, to sort the pecking order in the teams, to make the A team, when there is a roster of over 20 riders, you need to put yourself on the A team, by being in the front group in camp. So it is important, not like Ullrich was fat and lazy in 95 and had no incentive.

 

[blackcat]

Or you find a sketchy supplement after you test positive and say it's what you took. Thats what Aitor Gonzalez tried in vain. He said he took a supplement called Animal Pak which features pictures like this on it's website...

lolz epi, forgot that

 

[craig1985]

If you are really good your winnings might cover your doping bill!

TBH I'm a tad weary about ording dope off the internet.

 

[iliveonnitro]

New rumors floating around that all of Zirbel's supplements were tested, and one of his protein powders was tainted with DHEA. Garmin did the same thing and apparently some were also tainted with banned substances so they trashed them.

I wonder how this will have an effect on Zirbel. He'll still probably be banned for 2 years.

 

[BroDeal]

New rumors floating around that all of Zirbel's supplements were tested, and one of his protein powders was tainted with DHEA. Garmin did the same thing and apparently some were also tainted with banned substances so they trashed them.

I wonder how this will have an effect on Zirbel. He'll still probably be banned for 2 years.

He should sue the supplement company. Not only does he lose out on two years of income but his reputation is trashed. Even if he proves that his supplements were tainted, there will always be those who think it was just a cover story. The damage will be lasting. It will also probably affect the value of his contracts after a ban.

 

[Oldman]

He should sue the supplement company. Not only does he lose out on two years of income but his reputation is trashed. Even if he proves that his supplements were tainted, there will always be those who think it was just a cover story. The damage will be lasting. It will also probably affect the value of his contracts after a ban.

Odds are the supplement company merely markets a formulation that's blended by some contractor and labeled for their product. That's the problem as they shift from one product process/formula to another without cleaning equipment and storage containers. No FDA protocols are required so there is little guarantee of purity. The odds of a significant amount of DHEA being included is questionable, though. You still would need enough to register a positive test and, as I'm told by more knowledgable folks, DHEA clears the system fairly soon. That means you're taking alot of a "tainted" supplements. I want to believe the guy's innocent, too; but comparing the case to willing DHEA users you'd wonder what amounts he'd have to ingest.

 

[fatandfast]

Drank beer last night with a Swiss friend that is a mech engineer at pharma company . He said most of the old pill presses and drug making machines come to the US. Repair and maintenance of them is a great small biz in the US. He was contacted by 2 companies to check their machines while he was here on vacation. Supplements must be a great bu$ine$$

 

[python]

Odds are the supplement company merely markets a formulation that's blended by some contractor and labeled for their product. That's the problem as they shift from one product process/formula to another without cleaning equipment and storage containers. No FDA protocols are required so there is little guarantee of purity. The odds of a significant amount of DHEA being included is questionable, though. You still would need enough to register a positive test and, as I'm told by more knowledgable folks, DHEA clears the system fairly soon. That means you're taking alot of a "tainted" supplements. I want to believe the guy's innocent, too; but comparing the case to willing DHEA users you'd wonder what amounts he'd have to ingest.

bolded are very true statements.

in fact the screening dhea concentration that triggers the first alarm (100 ng/mL) is about three times as high as the average base line levels in athletes. average trace amounts in the contaminated vitamins simply don't have enough dhea to raise urine dhea content to that level. the guy needs to swallow enormous amounts of contaminated protein powder or eat vitamins like bread to exceeds the 1st threshold.

we need more specific quantitative information but by the looks of it, i'm skeptical zirbel got hot via any contamination. also if i was him and believed i was innocent i'd immediately start conducting kinetic studies on my excretion and base dhea rates including after the use of the suspected supplements.